Terrorists to use "Lasers". No word on moonbase, s

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Wicked Pilot
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 8972
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm

Post by Wicked Pilot »

Broomstick wrote:Hmm... that assumes a working ILS
Let's hope terrorist don't find out about NOTAMs.
and, correct me if I'm wrong, a Cat III approach to get it down to the runway safely?
Yes, the mins on a CATIIIc approach are N/A. Check out ORD ILS 14R CATIII.
Otherwise, if they're blind, how the heck will they know when they're at minimums?
It is common practice to use the radar altimeter to back yourself up on that. Usually if a GPWS is installed it will audibly alert when going below your selected mins.
Short of a Cat III, someone with vision has to be in the cockpit in order to manage the last 50 feet or so, right?
Well, I'm assuming that the blinding effect goes away when the laser is no longer on the airplane. If that's not the case, then they'd have to go missed ,informed ATC, enter a holding pattern, and sort stuff out there. Meanwhile the hunt is on on the ground.
Come to think of it, if you cut power to the ILS you'll force the pilots to look outside the cockpit, making them more vulnerable to this sort of attack --
It's already complicated enough getting ahold of the laser. They'd be better off just shooting it with a missile like they do around Bagdad.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Short of a Cat III, someone with vision has to be in the cockpit in order to manage the last 50 feet or so, right?
Well, I'm assuming that the blinding effect goes away when the laser is no longer on the airplane. If that's not the case, then they'd have to go missed ,informed ATC, enter a holding pattern, and sort stuff out there. Meanwhile the hunt is on on the ground.
The amount of damage is an important factor. In the 1997 incident the person in question suffered corneal burns which, although bad enough, aren't as bad as retina burns. Corneal damage sure can mess up your vision, but there are options that can correct some, if not all, of the worst effects. Screw up the lens of the eye? Hey, replacing that is a routine part of cataract surgery. You may not qualify for a military grade pilot's license afterward but you'd have usable vision.

Retina burns are a different matter - a minor burn will heal (this is the case with "snowblindness", which is essentially a sunburn of the retina) but once the nerves are truly scorched vision doesn't come back.

So, it comes down to how quickly and how thoroughly the hypothetical laser weapon can burn someone's eyeballs. Cleary, a burn of some sort has happened to at least one person. A mild burn would be easier to do than a totally, instantly blinding burn. IF someone could come up with a means of instantly, totally, and completely blinding pilots I don't see how the pilots will be able to successfully execute a missed approach or circle in a controlled manner. I'm not very famillar with the instrumentation on board either airliners or military airplanes so I'll have to defer to Wicked's superior knowledge in those areas - maybe there is a way to fly those things totally blind, or with severely impaired vision.

No, I don't think you're going to get a half-dozen terrorists driving a hummer onto a runway and deploying heavy equipment and targeting devices. But isn't the issue really one of how thoroughly can you disguise the operation? I tell you right now, every single one of you (including, perhaps, Wicked as well) are thinking two-dimensionally in regards to this problem when you should be thinking in three dimensions. I can think of a very simple manner in which to carry substantial equipment completely disguised, yet allowing a more than adequate amount of time in which to aim and fire such a weapon. It would also allow for a rapid escape as well. The vechicle that would allow you to do this would raise absolutely no suspicion at any airport in the world.
Come to think of it, if you cut power to the ILS you'll force the pilots to look outside the cockpit, making them more vulnerable to this sort of attack --
It's already complicated enough getting ahold of the laser. They'd be better off just shooting it with a missile like they do around Bagdad.
Except those missles haven't been too successful at downing large jets, have they? Causing major damage and emergency landings, yes, but minor injuries at most. Must be quite frustrating for the opposition to have successfully launched a missle, hit a jet, and yet no one dies. Heck, the airplane doesn't even crash! Most annoying - perhaps that is why they might be seeking alternative weaponry?
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Post by Coyote »

They'd also have to get both pilot and co-pilot. And quickly... it's kinda like... if they are good enough, close enough, and have resources enough to do this with a laser, why not just bring along as misile as well and down the whole plane? After all, the idea of terrorism is to make it obvious-- if it is dismised as an accident, there is no terror value.

And shoulder-fired AA missiles are a lot easier to get ahold of and train on that some laser thingy that may or may not do anything.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Goddammit, none of you people are getting into the Homeland Security spirit of things. You're supposed to cower in fear and tell everyone around you to do the same! You're not supposed to analyze the fearmongering objectively. All of you people are now on the Nightwatch, er- I mean Homeland Security suspect list.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Wicked Pilot
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 8972
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm

Post by Wicked Pilot »

Broomstick wrote:Except those missles haven't been too successful at downing large jets, have they? Causing major damage and emergency landings, yes, but minor injuries at most. Must be quite frustrating for the opposition to have successfully launched a missle, hit a jet, and yet no one dies. Heck, the airplane doesn't even crash! Most annoying - perhaps that is why they might be seeking alternative weaponry?
Well those are against large three and four engine DC-10s and C-17s, it may turn out different against smaller CRJs, ERJs, 737s, etc. Besides, even if the plane touches down safely, the airlnes will be fucked again as airports are closed and people stop flying. Hell, causing the increase use of car travel will probably kill more people in accidents than downing a 747.

Of course if they really wanna kill travelers, they could detonate a car bomb under a taxiway as a 767 crosses overhead. Not just limited to airplanes they cut a rail line near a bridge somewhere and watch as what happened in Alabama repeats itself. There are easier tried and true methods of killing people in mass that doesn't involve fancy technology.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Hah! That article made my day. Once again, the Department of Homeland Security proves to be the Chicken Little of the government.

Image
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:Goddammit, none of you people are getting into the Homeland Security spirit of things. You're supposed to cower in fear and tell everyone around you to do the same! You're not supposed to analyze the fearmongering objectively. All of you people are now on the Nightwatch, er- I mean Homeland Security suspect list.
Aw, fuck it - I've been on the "watch list" since Sept 12, what with being a pilot and owning a boxcutter or two. And hanging around message boards owned and run by "furriners" :lol:

When in panic, when in doubt
Run in circles, scream, and shout
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Broomstick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Goddammit, none of you people are getting into the Homeland Security spirit of things. You're supposed to cower in fear and tell everyone around you to do the same! You're not supposed to analyze the fearmongering objectively. All of you people are now on the Nightwatch, er- I mean Homeland Security suspect list.
Aw, fuck it - I've been on the "watch list" since Sept 12, what with being a pilot and owning a boxcutter or two. And hanging around message boards owned and run by "furriners" :lol:

When in panic, when in doubt
Run in circles, scream, and shout
Dirty Socialist Furriners!
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Dennis Toy
BANNED
Posts: 2072
Joined: 2002-07-20 01:55am
Location: Deep Space Nine

Post by Dennis Toy »

Broomstick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Goddammit, none of you people are getting into the Homeland Security spirit of things. You're supposed to cower in fear and tell everyone around you to do the same! You're not supposed to analyze the fearmongering objectively. All of you people are now on the Nightwatch, er- I mean Homeland Security suspect list.

Aw, fuck it - I've been on the "watch list" since Sept 12, what with being a pilot and owning a boxcutter or two. And hanging around message boards owned and run by "furriners"

When in panic, when in doubt
Run in circles, scream, and shout


Dirty Socialist Furriners!
damn ya man i mean we have bunnie rabbit bombs, pillow bombs, and we have R/C airplane bombs. Lets get into the spirit and hope that GI Joe will save us


GI joe

Boy: we have a laser...

Boy shines it on airplane, Duke comes out

Duke: You shouldnt shine lasers on airplanes

Boy: now we know and knowing is half the battle.....

GIIIII JOOEEEEE!! DADADADADAAAAAA
You wanna set an example Garak....Use him, Let him Die!!
User avatar
phongn
Rebel Leader
Posts: 18487
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:11pm

Post by phongn »

Yes, I know this thread is old, but ...
CNN wrote:Lasers illuminate airline cockpits on approach

Six incidents in four days

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Six commercial airliners in the past four days have had their cockpits illuminated by laser beams while attempting to land, a government official told CNN Wednesday.

The incidents have happened "all over the place" and in "kind of odd places," the official said without elaborating.

None of the flights was affected.

The government official, who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity, said it was unclear whether this week's incidents were the result of "kids who got a laser light for Christmas" or whether there is "some deliberate attempt to target aircraft."

The cockpit of a Continental Airlines 737 was illuminated by a laser Monday as it approached Cleveland, authorities said.

FBI spokesman Bob Hawk said the light, which shined into the cockpit at around 8 p.m., came from a suburb about 15 miles from the airport.

The FBI said no harm was done and the light did not affect the plane's landing.

On November 22, the FBI and Department of Homeland Security sent an intelligence bulletin to police agencies to alert them that terrorist groups have shown an interest in using laser beams to try to bring down airliners.

"Terrorist groups overseas have expressed interest in using these devices against human sight," the bulletin said. "The U.S. intelligence community has no specific or credible evidence that terrorists intend to use lasers to target pilots in the homeland."

The bulletin said lasers were not a proven method of attacking aircraft but that they could lead to a crash.

"In certain circumstances, if laser weapons adversely affect the eyesight of both pilot and co-pilot during a non-instrument approach, there is a risk of airliner crash," the bulletin said.

It is against federal law to intentionally shine a laser beam at a commercial airline flight.

In September, a Delta Air Lines pilot reported damage to his retina from a laser beam during a landing in Salt Lake City, Utah.

A report for the FAA in June 2004 examined the effect of laser beams on pilots. Of 34 pilots who were exposed to lasers during simulated flights, 67 percent experienced adverse visual effects at even the lowest level of laser exposure. Two high exposure levels resulted in significantly greater performance difficulties and nine aborted landings.

"The potential for an aviation accident definitely exists," said the report.
User avatar
Chmee
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4449
Joined: 2004-12-23 03:29pm
Location: Seattle - we already buried Hendrix ... Kurt who?

Post by Chmee »

Coyote wrote:They'd also have to get both pilot and co-pilot. And quickly... it's kinda like... if they are good enough, close enough, and have resources enough to do this with a laser, why not just bring along as misile as well and down the whole plane? After all, the idea of terrorism is to make it obvious-- if it is dismised as an accident, there is no terror value.

And shoulder-fired AA missiles are a lot easier to get ahold of and train on that some laser thingy that may or may not do anything.
Yeah, with the dozens of Stingers and Russian shoulder-fired SAM's floating around the global arms market, this seems like a really low-order threat in comparison.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer
.

Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon"

Operation Freedom Fry
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Still not something they should ignore. Is there a way to tint the airplane glass so that laser beams won't go through them? I'm assuming that this isn't a dinky little laser pointer we're talking about. There should be a low-tech way to get rid of this annoyance...

Brian
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Post by MKSheppard »

Coyote wrote:They'd also have to get both pilot and co-pilot. And quickly... it's kinda like... if they are good enough, close enough, and have resources enough to do this with a laser, why not just bring along as misile as well and down the whole plane? After all, the idea of terrorism is to make it obvious-- if it is dismised as an accident, there is no terror value.
A sufficiently powerful enough laser is far more easily obtainable in the
USA than a shoulder held surface to air missile, and you can always buy
two lasers and blind the pilots simultaneously.

As for terrrorism, well, when they dig through the wreckage and see the
recording go:

"MY EYES! I"M BLIND!" from both pilots near simultaneously....
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Wicked Pilot
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 8972
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm

Post by Wicked Pilot »

brianeyci wrote:Still not something they should ignore. Is there a way to tint the airplane glass so that laser beams won't go through them?
Windscreens aren't tinted, that's what sunglasses are for. Besides, you don't want to be blocking out precious light during night flying.

I really don't think much of this though, these are probably punks with new Christmas toys as opposed to terrorist. I'm more worried about a truck bomb being driven under a 767 as it taxis over a road at big airports such as DFW.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
User avatar
Old Plympto
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2003-06-30 11:21pm
Location: Interface 2037 Ready For Inquiry
Contact:

Post by Old Plympto »

Image
GUILTY AS CHARGED
darthdavid
Pathetic Attention Whore
Posts: 5470
Joined: 2003-02-17 12:04pm
Location: Bat Country!

Post by darthdavid »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:As others have said, if you're on approach to land at an airport, you're generally at a pretty low altitude, and you're moving on a more-or-less straight line down a limited number of predictable paths.

Of course, in order effectively dazzle the pilot of an aircraft, you have to have an absolutely steady hand, or somehow mount your laser on something that can either be braced against your shoulder like a rifle. A scope might give you a better idea of how your aim is, at least if you pick your spot directly in the airplane's path. It would help if you and a few of your terrorist buddies got together with your ultra-bright green-light laser pointers (or other suitable and easily procured lasers) and pointed them at the same aircraft at the same time, improving your odds of actually hitting something important.

Of course, if you've got Achmed the Terrorist and ten of his buddies hanging around an airport and, all rather intent on pointing their lasers at landing airplanes, they're going to be noticed, especially acting so suspiciously. So actually pulling off something like this would be rather difficult.
If you're already using something akin to a rifle, why not just go the who way and put a bullet up there?
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23352
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Post by LadyTevar »

phongn wrote:Yes, I know this thread is old, but ...
CNN wrote:Lasers illuminate airline cockpits on approach

Six incidents in four days
Ok... how many of you think that this is because CNN reported that it could be done, and there's some punk kids who decided to try it?
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

While that's a possibility, there were incidents before CNN started mentioning lasers and cockpits.

Also, in the most recent event, it was a green laser, which is a little less comomn than those red laser pointers you see just about everywhere these days, and further investigation indicates the source was about 25 miles from the airport and plane, which is further than the 5 miles or so of many other incidents, and apparently the light "tracked" the plane for a significant amount of time.

If it was a kid with a new toy, he's got one heck of a laser pointer.
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14800
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Post by aerius »

darthdavid wrote:If you're already using something akin to a rifle, why not just go the who way and put a bullet up there?
Because nothing short of a .50BMG is going to reliably penetrate jetliner cockpit windows.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

aerius wrote:
Because nothing short of a .50BMG is going to reliably penetrate jetliner cockpit windows.

I don't know about that. Windows which are proof against .50cal gunfire aren't that common even on armored military jets and attack helicopters. Your looking at needing a couple inches of laminated armored glass to have that level of protection.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

aerius wrote:
darthdavid wrote:If you're already using something akin to a rifle, why not just go the who way and put a bullet up there?
Because nothing short of a .50BMG is going to reliably penetrate jetliner cockpit windows.
Uh... just what do think airplane windshields are made of?

They are NOT armored!
User avatar
Burak Gazan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1536
Joined: 2002-12-30 07:45pm
Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
Contact:

Post by Burak Gazan »

Broomstick wrote:
aerius wrote:
darthdavid wrote:If you're already using something akin to a rifle, why not just go the who way and put a bullet up there?
Because nothing short of a .50BMG is going to reliably penetrate jetliner cockpit windows.
Uh... just what do think airplane windshields are made of?

They are NOT armored!
No, but they ARE meant to resist birdstrike at several hundred knots - pretty tough relatively speaking
"Of course, what would really happen is that in Game 7, with the Red Sox winning 20-0 in the 9th inning, with two outs and two strikes on the last Cubs batter, a previously unseen meteor would strike the earth, instantly and forever wiping out all life on the planet, and forever denying the Red Sox a World Series victory..."
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14800
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Post by aerius »

Broomstick wrote:Uh... just what do think airplane windshields are made of?

They are NOT armored!
Not in the strict sense, but modern jetliner windshields are made of laminated tempered glass up to 2 inches thick to resist birdstrikes. This also makes it resistant to most small arms fire.

There was an article in a law enforcement magazine (can't remember the title) which I was reading through in the library a while back dealing with the applications of the Barrett .50 in hostage & anti-vehicle situations which SWAT teams may come across. That's where they stated that while the .300 Winchester or Weatherby Mag can penetrate jetliner windshields, if the angle's a bit off or the distance too long, the bullets will fail to penetrate or deflect wildly upon penetration, a .50 was needed to punch through the glass and keep going straight.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
Petrosjko
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5237
Joined: 2004-09-18 10:46am

Post by Petrosjko »

aerius wrote:Not in the strict sense, but modern jetliner windshields are made of laminated tempered glass up to 2 inches thick to resist birdstrikes. This also makes it resistant to most small arms fire.

There was an article in a law enforcement magazine (can't remember the title) which I was reading through in the library a while back dealing with the applications of the Barrett .50 in hostage & anti-vehicle situations which SWAT teams may come across. That's where they stated that while the .300 Winchester or Weatherby Mag can penetrate jetliner windshields, if the angle's a bit off or the distance too long, the bullets will fail to penetrate or deflect wildly upon penetration, a .50 was needed to punch through the glass and keep going straight.
Of course, that's assuming a stationary aircraft. How does adding in the velocity of the plane change that equation? After all, even if the bullet deflects wildly on entry, if it shatters the glass while the plane's in flight life will get exciting in a hurry.
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Petrosjko wrote:
Of course, that's assuming a stationary aircraft. How does adding in the velocity of the plane change that equation? After all, even if the bullet deflects wildly on entry, if it shatters the glass while the plane's in flight life will get exciting in a hurry.
A bullet also is much more efficient at penetrating something than the broadside of a goose, for obvious reasons.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
Post Reply