Pentagon Budget: poll

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Pentagon budget: too big or too small

Poll ended at 2005-01-01 01:21pm

Too big
11
31%
Too small
16
46%
Just Right
8
23%
 
Total votes: 35

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Chmee
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Post by Chmee »

You'll have to replace those missiles for our deterrent and for many follow-up strikes to replace the sorties that the canceled bomber could have been making (and even at the absurd price of the B-2, would've won back its cost v. this system in a week's worth of sorties).
If that math was any fuzzier you could sell it as a children's toy. Without knowing anything about the costs of a system that could cost anywhere between $50 and $500 billion to develop and deploy, you casually throw off a statement like 'won back its cost in a week's worth of sorties' ..... could you possibly engage in a higher level of hyperbolic conjecture?

Here's the fact -- we're committed to spending billions on Trident missile refits and keeping the production line open until amost 2020. Here's the conjecture -- developing a conventional capacity for those missiles we're already buying is simply a matter of trying to get more bang for our buck. We're spending billions on missiles we pray we're never going to use, so the idea that they might spend a billion or two in a year when they actually want to fire some of them without nuking somebody doesn't seem particularly farfetched.

I am officially done zombifying this dead horse, the discussion is producing nothing but inexplicably angry conjecture.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

For some stupid reason I can't vote on this anymore, but, way too much. Something about basic things (nuts, bolts, toilet seats) being horrendously overpriced.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Evidence or urban legend?
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Post by Joe »

It's technically true that exorbitant prices for rather mundane items appear on Pentagon procurement records. This is the result of crappy accounting (bad cost allocation, specifically) though, not actual overspending. I don't doubt the Pentagon's budget could use some trimming but the $435 hammer meme and other stories like it are generally sensationalist bullshit.

As for the Pentagon budget, get real. It's less than 4 percent of GDP - that may seem like a lot, and it is, but on a relative scale, it isn't much at all given the extent and scale of our responsibilities abroad. We pick up the defense tab for not only ourselves, but for a hefty chunk of the civilized world as well. If anything, it's remarkable that it's so low.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Joe wrote:We pick up the defense tab for not only ourselves, but for a hefty chunk of the civilized world as well. If anything, it's remarkable that it's so low.
Why is it always called "defense"? Does that not imply, quite disingenuously, that this department never does anything offensive, and strictly defends the country? It does not take a particularly observant student of international affairs to conclude that this is not the case.
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Post by Chmee »

Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:We pick up the defense tab for not only ourselves, but for a hefty chunk of the civilized world as well. If anything, it's remarkable that it's so low.
Why is it always called "defense"? Does that not imply, quite disingenuously, that this department never does anything offensive, and strictly defends the country? It does not take a particularly observant student of international affairs to conclude that this is not the case.
Because 'War Department' wasn't PC enough .... it sounded kinda .... war-mongery ....
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an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer
.

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Post by Joe »

What Chmee said.
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Post by Howedar »

Chmee wrote:
Howedar wrote:Way to miss the entire point about the cost per missile. You tend to replace things you use up, you know.
You were talking about the cost of maintaining, deploying, protecting ... costs we are already committed to in SLBM's because of strategic doctrine. So yes, way to miss the point I was making.
In other words, you want to remove some strategic weapons. Is that correct?
If you're talking per-missile costs (for already developed missiles) at $30 million a shot, yes, that's a damned expensive system. So let's figure the cost of a new strategic bomber system ... well, we can't, it's all hypothetical. But you have to shoot off a *lot* of already-built-and-paid-for Trident II's before you match just the development cost of a new strategic system, never mind acquisition and maintenance costs.
Okay junior, let's make a decision. Are we or are we not generating hypothetical costs for weapons systems that do not exist?
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Post by kheegster »

Chmee wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:We pick up the defense tab for not only ourselves, but for a hefty chunk of the civilized world as well. If anything, it's remarkable that it's so low.
Why is it always called "defense"? Does that not imply, quite disingenuously, that this department never does anything offensive, and strictly defends the country? It does not take a particularly observant student of international affairs to conclude that this is not the case.
Because 'War Department' wasn't PC enough .... it sounded kinda .... war-mongery ....
But during all-out war e.g. WWII it does become the War Department doesn't it? I'm pretty sure this is the case in Britain anyway.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I presume so

we haven't called it the department of war since 1946...
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Post by Uraniun235 »

kheegan wrote: But during all-out war e.g. WWII it does become the War Department doesn't it? I'm pretty sure this is the case in Britain anyway.
No, the Department of War had been known as such since the days of President Washington.

And in the event of an "all-out" war, the industrial capability of the combatant nations would likely be targeted and eliminated so quickly that the paperwork for the change back to "Department of War" would probably not be completed until well after the war was already over. Such are the realities of modern warfare.
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Post by Coyote »

Shep, the Stryker is a 8-wheeler. It's based on the Marine LAV... you know this! I think you mean the run-flat tire part, where it was decided to put run-flats on 4 of the 8 wheels to save weight. Fat lotta good it did too...

It's another part of the overall Army mentality-- everything that moves has to be tank-killer capable. It went to rediculous proportions in the '80's when TOW missiles were almost literally strapped to every thing that moved. It made sense back in the day of the Soviet Union, when they had something like a 10-to-1 tank advantage, but now we don't hardly even see enemy tanks and when we do, they're re-worked Cold War era models.
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Post by phongn »

Joe wrote:It's technically true that exorbitant prices for rather mundane items appear on Pentagon procurement records. This is the result of crappy accounting (bad cost allocation, specifically) though, not actual overspending. I don't doubt the Pentagon's budget could use some trimming but the $435 hammer meme and other stories like it are generally sensationalist bullshit.
The hammer being expensive is true, but IIRC it was made out of a beryllium alloy for certain environments where sparks would be a Bad Thing. The Pentagon also likes hiding black projects in the budget everywhere which also tends to inflate the costs of things.
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Post by Joe »

Yeah, I've heard about funding black projects as a possible explanation for stuff like this, but I've never heard of the hammer being made of beryllium alloy. Source, out of curiosity?
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Post by phongn »

Joe wrote:Yeah, I've heard about funding black projects as a possible explanation for stuff like this, but I've never heard of the hammer being made of beryllium alloy. Source, out of curiosity?
It's been too long, unfortunately, though Sea Skimmer might have it. The toilet seat, IIRC, was actually a molded fibreglass fairing that happened to include a toilet seat in it. It might have been done that way for space and weight concerns rather than getting a COTS airplane toilet on the P-3.
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Post by Howedar »

COTS = Commerical Off The Shelf, for those who are unaware.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Coyote wrote:Shep, the Stryker is a 8-wheeler. It's based on the Marine LAV... you know this!
Yes, I know the Stryker is a multi-wheeler.
I think you mean the run-flat tire part, where it was decided to put run-flats on 4 of the 8 wheels to save weight. Fat lotta good it did too...
Which means that if any of the non-run flats get punctured,
the weights they were holding up get transferred to the run
flats, meaning instead of a four axle vehicle, you've got a
three, or even two axle vehicle holding up a grossly overweight
platform....
It made sense back in the day of the Soviet Union, when they had something like a 10-to-1 tank advantage, but now we don't hardly even see enemy tanks and when we do, they're re-worked Cold War era models.
TOWs can be used for blowing up fortified positions; they
were used to blast Uday and Qusay out of their house.

But meh, the Army seriously needs a brain unscrewing;
not everyone will be as easy to defeat as the Iraqi army
was; and we also want something far more capable of
recon/patrol missions in a OOTW environment than a
Humvee...

But instead of simply pursuing two product development
lines, a heavy army and a light army, they've been trying
to merge the two with FCS and Stryker.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

Hmmm.... still can't vote on this, and I think we use way too much! How much of that money appropriated to Iraq has actuallly been spent???? How many countries do we still unnescessarily hold bases in? And honestly, if it's such good business for contractors, why don't we see them investing in said militaries? Well, okay, maybe that last one is a bit absurd. But anyways, where's my vote?
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