Zero Tolerence in Action.

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sketerpot
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Post by sketerpot »

Wicked Pilot wrote:I can't believe you people are being so thick headed over this. Students can take whatever drug is prescribed to them, as long as it is administed by school officials. You know, those adults who are legally responsible for the kids' well being. What do you suggest the schools do, allow the children to administer their own dosage? We'll see how long that last after some 8th grader ends up killing themselves because they couldn't properly interpet the label.
If the schools are legally liable, which I now see they are, then I agree with the rule---but not the draconian way it was enforced in this case. The student ought to be chewed out sensibly for a first offense (and possibly given detention, too---just as long as it's sane), not expelled under a law meant to discourage narcotics.
That's why the punishment is so tough. I couldn't franky care less what the assistant principle did, if anything, as the article does not even indicate that he stole that particular student's medication.
The drug-stealing happened in a school in Michigan, and this article is in Oklahoma. They're unrelated, as far as I can see.
Yeah expulsion sucks, and this case isn't the fairest in the world, but this is not some kind of ideological game that you people seem to think it is, these are real dangers, a thousand expulsions are better than just one hospitalization, or worse even someone's death.
Probably most of the denunciation here is directed toward zero-tolerance policies in general. The laws that lead to students getting suspended for having 6-inch keychains and such. Very unreasonable laws.
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Post by Aaron »

Wicked Pilot wrote:I can't believe you people are being so thick headed over this. Students can take whatever drug is prescribed to them, as long as it is administed by school officials. You know, those adults who are legally responsible for the kids' well being. What do you suggest the schools do, allow the children to administer their own dosage? We'll see how long that last after some 8th grader ends up killing themselves because they couldn't properly interpet the label. That's why the punishment is so tough. I couldn't franky care less what the assistant principle did, if anything, as the article does not even indicate that he stole that particular student's medication. The students who were effected should have told their parents, who should have called the cops right then and there. Keeping silent and breaking the drug policy was not the way to go. Yeah expuslion sucks, and this case isn't the fairest in the world, but this is not some kind of ideological game that you people seem to think it is, these are real dangers, a thousand expulsions are better than just one hospitalization, or worse even someone's death.
I don't know what to say other than when I was in 8th grade I took my own meds. Before school mind you. I don't think it's beyond the realm of reason to allow students to administer their own meds. Hell you can even make a big deal out of it, showing how adult they are.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Prescriptions are controlled substances and can be abused.

The schools mindset is if they have possession of the medication then they can ensure that the child isn't handing it out among other children.
Thats BS. This girl wasn't taking T3, Percosate or Morphine. Or anything that could be abused.
A controlled substance is a controlled substance.

The fact is we don't know what drug it was. Even if it isn't something that could be given to others you also have WP point to consider.

I don't see why she couldn't just follow school policy.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
I don't know what to say other than when I was in 8th grade I took my own meds. Before school mind you. I don't think it's beyond the realm of reason to allow students to administer their own meds. Hell you can even make a big deal out of it, showing how adult they are.
Indeed. However, in the age of lawsuits this is a luxury nobody can afford anymore.

If you're responsible for someone then you better make damn sure you're holding their hand all the way through.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

sketerpot wrote:If the schools are legally liable, which I now see they are, then I agree with the rule---but not the draconian way it was enforced in this case. The student ought to be chewed out sensibly for a first offense (and possibly given detention, too---just as long as it's sane), not expelled under a law meant to discourage narcotics.
If you got your way and that child was found three months later dead of an OD, you'd be singing a different tune. I'd call you a retard, but that wouldn't bring someone's daughter, sister, neice, friend, etc, back to life.
The drug-stealing happened in a school in Michigan, and this article is in Oklahoma. They're unrelated, as far as I can see.
Upon further inspection, yeah that appears to be the case. That should have been made more clear. I guess the thread was about the double standard involving the principle not being fired. Just to make things absolutely clear as to where I stand, he should have been not just fired, but arrested as well. The union is probably behind his administrative leave with pay, but their screams won't stop armed police officers with a warrant.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Cpl Kendall wrote:I don't know what to say other than when I was in 8th grade I took my own meds. Before school mind you. I don't think it's beyond the realm of reason to allow students to administer their own meds. Hell you can even make a big deal out of it, showing how adult they are.
While we're at it, should we extend these responsiblities to 7th graders, how about 1st graders as well? You can never use powerful prescription medications to teach responsiblity at too early of an age can you?
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sketerpot
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Post by sketerpot »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
sketerpot wrote:If the schools are legally liable, which I now see they are, then I agree with the rule---but not the draconian way it was enforced in this case. The student ought to be chewed out sensibly for a first offense (and possibly given detention, too---just as long as it's sane), not expelled under a law meant to discourage narcotics.
If you got your way and that child was found three months later dead of an OD, you'd be singing a different tune. I'd call you a retard, but that wouldn't bring someone's daughter, sister, neice, friend, etc, back to life.
In that case, do you think that a first offense of speeding in a car should result in huge penalties? If the driver was found dead three months later after rolling a car into a ditch without a seatbelt because of going too fast for an icy road, would you be able to live with yourself if you didn't support drastic measures like loss of a driver's licesce for a first speeding offense? Or perhaps just for drivers under 18?

Driving safely is a very serious matter, but there is a difference between setting people back on a safe path and going overboard. Expulsion should be a last resort. There is a reason there are other, lighter penalties: the punishment should fit the crime.

And in this case, if she was caught, they could have transferred the burden of administering the medicine to the school nurse, with punishment for irregularities which would indicate that the student was taking the medicine on her own, with modification to the schedule requiring signed orders from her doctor. That, combined with chewing out and detention (or something; the teachers should have discretion) would have been a tactful way to resolve this problem. Instead, a policy mandated a heavy-handed, seriously life-disrupting punishment. Can't you see the problem here? The zero-tolerance policy is fucking stupid because it leaves no room for discretion.
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Post by Darth Wong »

sketerpot wrote:The zero-tolerance policy is fucking stupid because it leaves no room for discretion.
That's a reasonable argument, but it's not the one that was initially floated; people initially argued that the kids should be self-medicating because the administration has no business being their nannies, even though that is actually the administration's duty.
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Post by Aaron »

Wicked Pilot wrote: While we're at it, should we extend these responsiblities to 7th graders, how about 1st graders as well? You can never use powerful prescription medications to teach responsiblity at too early of an age can you?
Don't be ridiculous. Kids eventually reach a point when they are enherently more responsible. I'd say that 13 is the earliest age at which teenagers can be trusted to manage their meds.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:While we're at it, should we extend these responsiblities to 7th graders, how about 1st graders as well? You can never use powerful prescription medications to teach responsiblity at too early of an age can you?
Don't be ridiculous. Kids eventually reach a point when they are enherently more responsible. I'd say that 13 is the earliest age at which teenagers can be trusted to manage their meds.
Kids are not considered legally competent to handle non-prescription drugs such as alcohol or tobacco at 13.
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Post by Skelron »

Indeed a better punishment here, as she was breaking the rules, and was meant to hand the Drugs over would have been say Detention, not expulsion.

This is the problem with Zero-Tolerance in that it A.) Leaves no room for negotiation or taking into account the situation as shown here and
B.) on a Wider context is never a true Zero-Tolerance, in say the wider world Zero-Tolerance is never applied to Corporate/White Collar crime. I can imagine it being the same within schools that you could find in Zero-Tolerance schools situations where Zero-Tolerance is not applied because it is recognised that room is needed to take into account the situation...

As for Ritalin don't get me started as mentioned it strikes me as being an excuse 90% of the time not to have to deal with problem children, in my heart I believe that when Teachers push parents into it, a lot of times it is because they are under-paid over worked, under appreciated sections of the community. That simply put give up, if a drug can make classrooms quiet then so be it, It's wrong but... It's understandable.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Skelron wrote:Indeed a better punishment here, as she was breaking the rules, and was meant to hand the Drugs over would have been say Detention, not expulsion.
I lean toward suspension.
As for Ritalin don't get me started as mentioned it strikes me as being an excuse 90% of the time not to have to deal with problem children, in my heart I believe that when Teachers push parents into it, a lot of times it is because they are under-paid over worked, under appreciated sections of the community.
Underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated compared to whom? There are plenty of people out there who have shitty jobs, and teachers' constant complaints are tiresome to say the least. Do they really think that all of the parents of the schoolkids have wonderful cushy jobs? When they bitch about having to put up with stupid administrators and annoying kids, do they stop to ask how it feels to deal with stupid administrators who can fire you on a whim and annoying customers?
That simply put give up, if a drug can make classrooms quiet then so be it, It's wrong but... It's understandable.
Their job convenience is purchased at the cost of the kids' childhoods. Hell of a trade.
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Post by Elfdart »

I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance. Expulsion? Ridiculous.

I see some people think the school should hand out the medicine. There are problems with this. The case of the school employee helping himself to the kids' drugs is one problem. Another is the fact that prescription drugs are meant for the patient. Are school employees qualified to dispense controlled substances? If a school nurse even offers information about birth control pills, village mobs will lay siege to the school. If school officials are going to be given custody of drugs, shouldn't they have to be screened and subjected to the same rules that apply to people who work in drug stores and pharmacies?
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Post by Elfdart »

One of the few decent laws passed here in Texas in recent years made it a crime for teachers or school employees to push Ritalin on parents or even suggest it. One angry parent asked a teacher "Excuse me, are you a doctor? Then why are you pushing this stuff?"
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Post by Skelron »

Darth Wong wrote:
Skelron wrote:Indeed a better punishment here, as she was breaking the rules, and was meant to hand the Drugs over would have been say Detention, not expulsion.
I lean toward suspension.
Underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated compared to whom? There are plenty of people out there who have shitty jobs, and teachers' constant complaints are tiresome to say the least. Do they really think that all of the parents of the schoolkids have wonderful cushy jobs? When they bitch about having to put up with stupid administrators and annoying kids, do they stop to ask how it feels to deal with stupid administrators who can fire you on a whim and annoying customers?
Anoying parents who will come in and argue the toss with you over anything you do, where a male teacher will need a female teacher with him if he's alone for five minutes with a child. Constantly being blamed for any failure of the children ever... Inspections by in the UK people who honestly could not teach so now go around telling others how to teach. Having people who have never been in a class room telling you how to do your job. Literacy hours, (Funny but true story one year my Mother was asked to give a talk on the literacy hour, at that point the most she had ever done of it was 15minutes when the OFSTED inspector was in the room.) Lesson plans, about once a week or so my Mother prepares her weeks lesson plans, it'll have her up all night and I mean all night in unpaid work. Then there is marking, again unpaid work, that must be done.

Then there is the fact that you hear all the time, 'Oh teachers get such long holidays' Actually thats not true holidays such as half term will be used in catch up by Mother. For my Father well he has Exams to mark, and classes to sort out for the next year, which has to be done in partnership with the Math's department. School trips, oh what fun...

After all that I still havn't got the joys that for example an A-Level teacher must face where you improve the standards of the class and get hit with the accusation that the exams are EASIER... Thats basically the pattern teachers face, if results go up, then the exams are easier and the standards are falling. If results go down TEACHERS are failing and the system needs an overhaul. constant tinkering of the system in otherwords.

Their job convenience is purchased at the cost of the kids' childhoods. Hell of a trade.
Well to be fair it's not, but then again for every Teacher you have met, their are parents who DEMAND Ritalin, a good proportion of the children at my mothers school are on it, at the insistence of the parents, it makes my Mother rather anoyed.
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Post by Knife »

Darth Wong wrote:
Knife wrote:Zero tollerance reads; zero liability from lawsuites.
Not to echo WP's excellent point, but avoiding liability from lawsuits is preventing negligence, and that is a paramount concern for all professionals.
The problem in this case, and all 'Zero Tollerance' is that there is no room in these 'policy decissions' with the parents. If the policies actualy had the school confer with the parent, then exercise a punitive decision, I would not be so against it.

A damn quick call to the parents advising them of the situation, and a damn slap on the wrist for breaking policy. The automatic expulsion is ridiculous and I'd be up in flames if it happened to my kid.

The damn kid can't get the damn drup with out the parents getting it for them, so a quick call to the parents to see if the kid actually is suppost to have the drugs, then punish the kid for not giving the drugs to the nurse, but NOT EXPULSION.

Now, nothing to this level has happened to my kids, but I've told the teachers and the principle to very diplomatically kiss my ass, when they wanted to punish my kid when he fought back when a kid jumped him.

They wanted to 'in school suspend him' what ever the fuck that means, and I said no. He's not suppost to fight in school, but I'll be damned if I tell my kid to just sit there and get beat, waiting for a teacher to break it up. Their policy is NO FIGHTING and if you do no matter what the reason, your in trouble (Zero Tolerance) which is bull shit when my kid got jumped and didn't even pick a fight.

The punishment they wanted to give him (as with the case in the OP) is WAY out of balence with their 'crime', but so that they can reduce their responsibility, they come up with these ridiculous 'catch all' policies.


Point blank, the girl shouln't have had the drugs on here, but it does not reach the level of 'expulsion' nor should it and if I were her dad, I'd be ripping up a school board, superintendent, and making sure every single local channel news desk knew what was going on, and that I was pissed off at it.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Now, nothing to this level has happened to my kids, but I've told the teachers and the principle to very diplomatically kiss my ass, when they wanted to punish my kid when he fought back when a kid jumped him.

They wanted to 'in school suspend him' what ever the fuck that means, and I said no. He's not suppost to fight in school, but I'll be damned if I tell my kid to just sit there and get beat, waiting for a teacher to break it up. Their policy is NO FIGHTING and if you do no matter what the reason, your in trouble (Zero Tolerance) which is bull shit when my kid got jumped and didn't even pick a fight.
And how fucking quickly would these adults agree to a similar policy in THEIR world? Let someone beat you up until the police come along and rescue you? Make it a crime to fight back? As IF!

That's so fucking ridiculous I can't believe you were diplomatic about it. I would have told them to shove a ruler up their ass sideways.

It's always been one of my pet peeves to see our most helpless members of society (children), being forced to endure bullying, physical violence and mental abuse that can haunt them the rest of their days in severe cases. And what's the solution to these idiots? No self defence!

Do people get temporary brain lobotomies when dealing with children's issues? Fuck.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

To whom this might concern

Due to internet research, news of the expulsion of a fourteen-year old female student at your Middle School came to my attention. Ostensibly, she had the misfortune of succumbing to the “Zero Tolerance Endeavor” of your administration. If I err, please correct me, but I venture to say that she had a prescription for a medication, which regulated and acted as a remedy for her diagnosed ovarian disease. This, once provided, should have served the purpose of exculpation; the girl had the right to have her own medication present and she did not posses illegal substances. However, this is not the case. Contrarily, your school expelled her from your institution with no source of remediation and zero chance at explanation. Notwithstanding the school rule which states that all medications must be held by the administration, this is ridiculously unjust and leads to a negative Utilitarian calculation. Out of this calculation, the problem should be remedied as soon as possible; preferably with readmission accompanying an apology to the girl and her family for such indignity and distress.

Foremost, I disagree with your Zero Tolerance initiative on moral utilitarian grounds, because it ostensibly leads to unnecessary and somewhat problematic consequences. I fully understand the fundamental desire for a school to maintain some type of order and control over the students; it is therefore reasonable that administrators or teachers want child-protection and the prevention of drug proliferation on campus. According to your policy, all drugs—even prescription drugs, must be held in stasis at some administrative office; this is a quagmire unto itself. Why would the students and parents entrust their medicines to school officials? In many instances, this policy leads to a troublesome Principle of Double Effect, in which the desired consequences occur alongside unwanted, negative ones. In light of this situation, one may bring up a particular case in which the system has been easily abused. In a Michigan school district, the Zero Tolerance policy was the same as yours insomuch that medicines were required to stay at the administration’s fingertips. As a result, students were injured through refusal to give them their medication when in need, due to the Principle or other administrators illegall use of said medications without their permission (Ann Arbor News). Examples like this above are one of many—not isolated instances in a sea of good feelings. Furthermore, the Zero Tolerance policy is nothing more than an excuse for the administration to exact control over its students, while allowing serious potential abuses. Furthermore, this principle in question was neither expelled from the institution nor fired. He rather went on a type of leave with “care.” Schools punish students expulsion, an extremely serious affair, no matter the situation and for accidentally and innocently carrying legal, valid medications in their possession. Administrators, on the other hand, get off scot-free with little more than a sojourn in rehab. I imply not that this is the case in your administration, but only that it can occur; when complimenting the already pernicious problem of school abuse, these powers over the students should not be a reality. Abuse runs rampant as the bureaucracy and its powers increase and more control over others comes to pass. As Jefferson would say: “The government which governs least, governs best.”

Related to the concept of limited involvement, Zero Tolerance negative consequences fly into the airspace of responsibility. As a result of their existence, irresponsibility and infantile characteristics are nurtured instead of the opposite traits. As an additional utility point, responsibility should be given to a student who is under pediatric care to take his own medicine at required times given that these medications are checked, documented, and validated. In a manner of speaking, one might accomplish this endeavour through self-regulation of legal drugs, which builds more character than does the omnipresent “big-brother” hovering over the students’ shoulders like a monolithic Jiminy Cricket. Instead of being coddled and having all trust removed, the students need to take responsibility for their own property and actions, but in a limited form. These students, whom you govern, are neither stupid nor criminals, but are rational, autonomous human beings with real emotions and happiness requirements. This girl did nothing wrong. She was in possession of legal materials issue to her by a trained physician and accepted by her parents, who are her legal guardians, not you. These people should be treated like people and given responsibility—the responsibility to have and utilize their own prescriptions.

Utilitarian calculations go into the red even more when administrations wantonly punish all students under one all-encompassing doctrine that strips them of any respect and responsibility. These punishments not only send a poor message, they are completely ineffective in operation. Instead of helping them, as administrations ostensively help their own, as shown in the above Michigan case, the students are the victums. In contrast to better understanding the students or to alleviating their problems by working with them, students are inconspicuously, gingerly cast asunder. According to Dr. Robert F. Goodmann, “Research and practical experience have taught us that, especially where young children are concerned, punishment alone is never the most effective strategy for promoting change. The best policies are those included in a comprehensive approach.” In this respect, treating your students like little babies with harsh, ridiculous penalties and immediate, unwavering expulsion for obtuse, innocent mistakes is inane. Such treatments not only unjustly punish those who make mistakes non-maliciously, they produce negative attitudes toward the administration, as is pointed out in “Zero Tolerance or Zero Common sense,” by author Phyllis Schlafly. In the article, the author explicated, “Zero tolerance is not protecting us from terrorists or criminals. It is making good kids disrespect school authorities.” If you treat students like dangerous monkies in a cage, you will simply get dangerous monkies in a cage, not well-behaved, respectable students.

Utility also hurts students on a rights-based level. Moreover, by physically confiscating the medicines, the schools are harming individuals and parents by violating the right to property. These drugs, like it or not, are not the property of the school, but of the individuals to whom they are prescribed or the parents’. Either the students or the parents possess these materials—not the school, and the school has no right to their private property, especially property which is key to their health. Medicines are not hats and shirts or things that the school government could find offensive—they are critical necessities that ought not to be in the hands of foreign bureaucracy, but at the fingertips of responsibility-encouraged students. In any case, the Zero Tolerance policy should be second to the desires of the parents of the children—parents who are the legal guardians and care-givers. They ought have the say in who keeps their own children’s medications, not you.

More importantly, one must look at the consequences of expulsion due to Zero Tolerance regulations from the utilitarian concept of necessity. Are they worth it, or do they ignore Utilitarian realities and increase unhappiness fruitlessly? Most ironically, Zero Tolerance policies are a travesty, and yours is no exception. In the opinion of recent August 2000 research, Skibia has concluded that the level of crime prevention and safety incurred by Zero Tolerance is largely a myth; it does not exist (Sanchez, Mark). Your policy is nonsense insomuch that its deterrent and preventative qualities are useless. These Zero Tolerance notions are in action, yet they accomplish nothing but needless unhappiness—a gross violation of the Utility Principle. Zero Tolerance bears a strong resemblance to Capital punishment, which also has little to no social-protection benefit over differential-severity imprisonment. In fact, much like in the Capital Punishment cases, alternative punishments do exist and allow students to stay in school where they belong, not out of school on expulsion and suspension. These alternatives are by far preferable to ZT in light of the frightening, unwanted “double effect” consequences.

According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, “A spiraling effect exists in that youths out of school are more likely to get involved in physical fights and to carry weapons, smoke, use alcohol, marijuana and cocaine, engage in sexual intercourse, [and] have poor eating habits (Robin F. Goodman, Ph.D). Additionally, the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights claims that “the fear driven ZT policies with mandatory expulsion may be responsible for the increase in suspensions from 1.7 million in 1974 to 3.1 million by 1997 (Robin F. Goodman, Ph.D). If anything, one should take into account the effect on the minds of the students and their general health. In the opinion of the National Mental Health Association, Zero Tolerance is also wrong, for it does not jive with the original intention of the program—the punishment of serious, malicious offenses. Instead of being beneficial, the methodology becomes dangerous to student health. Quite rightly, the NMHA believes “the harshness and broadness of current zero tolerance policies not only result in many young children being labeled [falsely] delinquents or criminals, but also result in lost educational opportunities for youth, which studies show have long-term negative consequences for both the child and society as a whole” (www.nmha.org).

It seems quite hilarious that a school as strict and caring” as yours would allow for such an ironic twist. One must face the fact that expelling this child, as well as any others (especially this child, since she did little to nothing wrong) is disastrous and unnecessary. The problems and hand ought to have remedy through a less abrasive effort calibrated for caution, not rashness. In short, we see that Zero Tolerance expulsion and suspension are ethically counterproductive in terms of student health and rights, and they increase delinquency, disease, drug use, and crime. Now, sir, take a moment to contemplate what negative actions your policy will beget. Imagine what might happen to this young girl once you destroy her life through this black mark on her record and injury to her educational career. Will she become a faceless statistic? Yes. This seems like an excellent policy, do you not agree, Mr. Administrator?
Now I know it's not the best, and it's kinda sloppily done, but this is my perspective. Now according to what Wong said earlier. I don't think kids should medicate themselves. I think this should be allowed with perspcription drugs and a pre-selected quanity through the parents (of over the counter drugs) once they reach a certain age.

I feel it's stupid for people who are 15 + to not be able to take medication if the parents put it into a bag or something for them to use if it's pre-measured before they leave home. I never liked going to the nurse, because the lady would always lose shit and I would have to go home instead of staying at school.
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Post by Trogdor »

Justforfun000 wrote:
Now, nothing to this level has happened to my kids, but I've told the teachers and the principle to very diplomatically kiss my ass, when they wanted to punish my kid when he fought back when a kid jumped him.

They wanted to 'in school suspend him' what ever the fuck that means, and I said no. He's not suppost to fight in school, but I'll be damned if I tell my kid to just sit there and get beat, waiting for a teacher to break it up. Their policy is NO FIGHTING and if you do no matter what the reason, your in trouble (Zero Tolerance) which is bull shit when my kid got jumped and didn't even pick a fight.
Um, where did that quote come from? I've read this whole thread pretty thoroughly and then skimmed it a couple of times and didn't see it.

On the topic of that quote, I remember when I was in high school I heard about someone who knew about that particular rule, didn't fight back at all when attacked, and STILL got suspended for a few days.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Skelron wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated compared to whom? There are plenty of people out there who have shitty jobs, and teachers' constant complaints are tiresome to say the least. Do they really think that all of the parents of the schoolkids have wonderful cushy jobs? When they bitch about having to put up with stupid administrators and annoying kids, do they stop to ask how it feels to deal with stupid administrators who can fire you on a whim and annoying customers?
Anoying parents who will come in and argue the toss with you over anything you do,
Oh right, as if that's worse than meddling incompetent managers who can fire you at a whim and customers who change their minds about what they want and then expect you to make the revisions at your own cost.
where a male teacher will need a female teacher with him if he's alone for five minutes with a child.
Oh puh-lease, any Boy Scout leader has the same problem.
Constantly being blamed for any failure of the children ever... Inspections by in the UK people who honestly could not teach so now go around telling others how to teach. Having people who have never been in a class room telling you how to do your job.
What the fuck do you think an engineer thinks when an MBA in a business suit tells him how to do his job, moron? Are you deliberately trying to reinforce my point about how teachers incorrectly believe that their problems are unique?
Literacy hours, (Funny but true story one year my Mother was asked to give a talk on the literacy hour, at that point the most she had ever done of it was 15minutes when the OFSTED inspector was in the room.) Lesson plans, about once a week or so my Mother prepares her weeks lesson plans, it'll have her up all night and I mean all night in unpaid work. Then there is marking, again unpaid work, that must be done.
Add up these hours and divide them over the school year. Be honest, and be aware that I know some teachers who used to have private sector jobs and freely admit that they work fewer hours now overall.
Then there is the fact that you hear all the time, 'Oh teachers get such long holidays' Actually thats not true holidays such as half term will be used in catch up by Mother. For my Father well he has Exams to mark, and classes to sort out for the next year, which has to be done in partnership with the Math's department. School trips, oh what fun...
Oh puh-lease, you can almost set your watch by teacher whining. My fucking next-door neighbours were teachers for years; I know how much they have to work during their summer holidays, and that amount is zero. They even bragged about it. You are the child of two teachers who have been indoctrinating you for years; what work experience do you have? I really hate appeals to Mommy and Daddy as a form of argument.
After all that I still havn't got the joys that for example an A-Level teacher must face where you improve the standards of the class and get hit with the accusation that the exams are EASIER... Thats basically the pattern teachers face, if results go up, then the exams are easier and the standards are falling. If results go down TEACHERS are failing and the system needs an overhaul. constant tinkering of the system in otherwords.
And of course, management never tinkers with the system or exhibits incompetence in the private sector, right? :roll:
Their job convenience is purchased at the cost of the kids' childhoods. Hell of a trade.
Well to be fair it's not, but then again for every Teacher you have met, their are parents who DEMAND Ritalin, a good proportion of the children at my mothers school are on it, at the insistence of the parents, it makes my Mother rather anoyed.
I don't give a shit whether your Mommy is annoyed; teaching is a social responsibility, and like all social responsibilities, you are not supposed to shirk it. Engineers are expected to risk firing and lost livelihood if necessary to uphold their social responsibilities, and teachers think it's a huge and unacceptable imposition if they have to put up with whiny parents. Not to mention the way you treat all parents as a monolithic block, so that if one parent acts like a jackass it's OK to fuck over the next parent's kid.

And BTW, forcing the parents to put the kid on Ritalin is grossly irresponsible. If your mother can't handle the social responsibility of being a teacher, she should quit. If she can, then she should stop whining about it.
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Post by Skelron »

Erm for a start read my point about my Mother again Wong she dosn't like Ritalin nor has ever suggested to a parent it get used... Parents demand it from the teachers... It's a two way street, does that make it okay, no but have you ever wondered what the shit head child is like to many teachers. The one that is not just constantly 'misbehaving' but actively disrupting the class and being a real Crap head? These children suck up attention, and prevent teaching from occuring.

The Obnoxious Parents I mentioned are the ones who race in to complain if little Timmy got shouted at that today because little Timmy is a 'perfect angel' and so should not be shouted at. Little Timmy by the way was not a perfect Angel but a Obnoxious pest in the way only Children can be, and was intolerably cruel to another Child.

It's not the occasional Parent either you can expect one or two such Parents everyday.

Literacy Hours, take up about one Hour a Day I think, so it's quite big, and pointless, as if they wheren't already teaching it. Instead they have to fit it into an Hour long area rather than have the freedom to split it up and around to allow them the time to approach other areas.

As for number of Hours per year spent in their own time, I am unsure, really I am, it depends for example as a Primary school teacher all my Mother's work comes home with her. She has to do it here, because the school day does not include it. My Father on the other hand uses his free periods to get large swathes of the Marking out of the way, and does truely have more free time my Mother. (Except during Exam Season)

Now I do have large personal experiances of the Teaching profession direct experiance not of 'the neighbours' but of the Family and friends, I know the personal lives of several Teachers, My Parents, My Aunts my Uncles, (A Large Extended Family I might add, of which only two in total including both my Mother and My Father's side are not Teachers) Family Friends etc. Not just two Neighbours Wong but a large direct experiance of the profession in general.

Are there problems unique no, and I doubt many teachers would say they are, except in their scale. How common is it that your profession is the favourite plaything of Politicians constantly, not just on the small scale but nationally? They are underpaid and overstressed, Pressure is constantly added to perform better. (And did I add that when they do Standards are still falling so they have to Perform even better an engineer I have got to imagine when his design works is not told. Well that was crap do better next time why standards are falling)

Teaching does I admit give large breaks, and Summer is one of them, but it is over emphasised, that is all I am saying. Does it justify Ritalin, well no, but then again Teachers are only human and they have human failings, and to be honest Little Timmy can be an obnoxious little Brat. Why lump all Parents together? Well generally they don't, but it is easily done, you don't deal with Parents every day they become the faceless mass, an experianced Primary school teacher of say a class of 20 who has been teaching for 5 years assuming no siblings has passed through has seen what a Hundred different Parents. A senior School teacher such as my dad in the same time period can claim over a thousend. They ARE a faceless mass. (Or in my Parents case 30+ Years)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Skelron wrote:Erm for a start read my point about my Mother again Wong she dosn't like Ritalin nor has ever suggested to a parent it get used... Parents demand it from the teachers... It's a two way street, does that make it okay, no but have you ever wondered what the shit head child is like to many teachers. The one that is not just constantly 'misbehaving' but actively disrupting the class and being a real Crap head? These children suck up attention, and prevent teaching from occuring.

The Obnoxious Parents I mentioned are the ones who race in to complain if little Timmy got shouted at that today because little Timmy is a 'perfect angel' and so should not be shouted at. Little Timmy by the way was not a perfect Angel but a Obnoxious pest in the way only Children can be, and was intolerably cruel to another Child.

It's not the occasional Parent either you can expect one or two such Parents everyday.
So? How does this make gross teacher negligence "understandable?"
Literacy Hours, take up about one Hour a Day I think, so it's quite big, and pointless, as if they wheren't already teaching it. Instead they have to fit it into an Hour long area rather than have the freedom to split it up and around to allow them the time to approach other areas.

As for number of Hours per year spent in their own time, I am unsure, really I am, it depends for example as a Primary school teacher all my Mother's work comes home with her. She has to do it here, because the school day does not include it. My Father on the other hand uses his free periods to get large swathes of the Marking out of the way, and does truely have more free time my Mother. (Except during Exam Season)
Psssst! I'll let you in on a little secret: most non-union workers do not get "free periods" at all during the day.
Now I do have large personal experiances of the Teaching profession direct experiance not of 'the neighbours' but of the Family and friends, I know the personal lives of several Teachers, My Parents, My Aunts my Uncles, (A Large Extended Family I might add, of which only two in total including both my Mother and My Father's side are not Teachers) Family Friends etc. Not just two Neighbours Wong but a large direct experiance of the profession in general.
Read: "my whole family is teachers, therefore I have direct observation about the relative workload of teachers and non-union private sector employees". Nice non-sequitur.
Are there problems unique no, and I doubt many teachers would say they are, except in their scale. How common is it that your profession is the favourite plaything of Politicians constantly, not just on the small scale but nationally?
What difference does the national scale make? A teacher has precisely one job to worry about, does he not? And as for being the "plaything of politicians", I'm still waiting for you to explain how this is worse than middle managers fucking you over and running the whole goddamned business into the ground so that you are out of a job: something that happens all the fucking time, in case you have never picked up a newspaper in your life.
They are underpaid and overstressed, Pressure is constantly added to perform better. (And did I add that when they do Standards are still falling so they have to Perform even better an engineer I have got to imagine when his design works is not told. Well that was crap do better next time why standards are falling).
Yet again you proudly wallow in your ignorance. Engineers are constantly told to reduce their costs, shorten their delivery times, and improve their product quality. Thanks for confirming that you don't know jack shit about the world outside of your taxpayer-funded bubble.
Teaching does I admit give large breaks, and Summer is one of them, but it is over emphasised, that is all I am saying. Does it justify Ritalin, well no, but then again Teachers are only human and they have human failings, and to be honest Little Timmy can be an obnoxious little Brat.
How does that make it understandable to shirk your social responsibility?
Why lump all Parents together? Well generally they don't, but it is easily done, you don't deal with Parents every day they become the faceless mass, an experianced Primary school teacher of say a class of 20 who has been teaching for 5 years assuming no siblings has passed through has seen what a Hundred different Parents. A senior School teacher such as my dad in the same time period can claim over a thousend. They ARE a faceless mass. (Or in my Parents case 30+ Years)
And you think that the public is not a faceless mass, even though an engineer has sworn an oath to protect them even at the risk of his livelihood if necessary? You think police officers don't swear such an oath with even more dire and immediate personal consequences, to an even less grateful public? Give me a fucking break; if you were setting out to prove that teachers are completely out of touch with the rest of society, you succeeded.
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Post by Skelron »

ahh yes, because everything you say detracts from my points that Teachers are Underpaid, Overworked looking after an ungrateful publics Children for roughly 6 hours a Day five days a week.

Yep Wong you really put me in my place, hell, I have no contact with the outside world and other peoples jobs, wait I understand the stresses placed on Police Officers, yas my Brother-in-Law is one, and on Nurses and on many Public Servents. All of them are Underpaid, Over worked and underappreciated.

Tell me do you think I was saying at any point that Ritalin was good, no of course not, I am against the thing, I am saying you should try and understand that Teaching is a hard profession, and a vital one. That those Bratty Kids can and do ruin it for the rest of the class, and that the best teachers in the world loose their patience. That for many of them there comes a point when you freaking want the one bad kid to be quiet so that the rest of the class can freaking learn, it takes one disruptive child to stop a class, one.

You say that all these other professions Engineer etc are stressful and importent and have never once mentioned that a Teacher has one of the most importent jobs going, they look after your Child for six hours a day educate them, keep them safe, etc, but not just your child but other peoples children...

but hay I don't know what I am talking about obviously I'm safly protected in my Tax funded bubble, and never have to worry about such things.

As for free periods erm did you not notice me mention that my Father has less problems with having to take work home with him due to these, I had already expressed that this lessened his work load... Way to catch me out there...

Still thats it all I am going to say on the matter, this is a pointless excercise, as you seem to think I started to argue no one else had these problems, when all I was pointing out that they are stressed and underpaid, so I will ask you one simple question. If an easier solution to a problem was offered to your profession would people take it... even if it where similar to Ritalin and would you not say that while it was wrong, it was understandable because in the end these are people with limits to their patience, or would you stay true to the argument you have presented here.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Has anyone considered the possibility that it is the parents who should be punished here? A fourteen year old should not be expected to learn all the rules and regulations of a school today on her own--her parents should take the responsibility to read over them, and if they feel it is necessary, make the necessary arrangements themselves.

Punishing this girl is stupid and ridiculous. It's clearly a medicine she was given by a doctor, for a very real condition, which she has undoubtably been told that she needs. She's fourteen years old--why aren't her parents being held accountable? Maybe if, instead of expelling the kid, they made her parents spend a couple days in jail and slap them with a hefty fine, they'd take the requirement of teaching their daughter seriously, like they should have to have prevented this from happening in the first place.
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Post by RogueIce »

Skelron wrote:Still thats it all I am going to say on the matter, this is a pointless excercise, as you seem to think I started to argue no one else had these problems, when all I was pointing out that they are stressed and underpaid, so I will ask you one simple question. If an easier solution to a problem was offered to your profession would people take it... even if it where similar to Ritalin and would you not say that while it was wrong, it was understandable because in the end these are people with limits to their patience, or would you stay true to the argument you have presented here.
I would wager his answer (and the point of what he's saying) would be no. Putting the kid on pills makes it easier for the teacher, but at the expense of the child as well.

To take an example for an engineer, it's like he just doesn't want to put the effort into it, so to make things "easier" he glosses over some important calculation or whatnot. Whoops! The bridge has collapsed thanks to shoddy design. Wouldn't you be up in arms over that?

What if the cop decided to sit in his patrol car all day, ignoring calls. That's easier, right? Well, while he's doing that someone gets robbed, and the criminal gets away because he decided to sit on his ass. I think you'd be pretty damned upset.

Ritalin does have at least some negative impact on a child later on in life. I am no expert, but at the very least it would preclude entry in the US armed forces (it's the only example I know of offhand). Well, what if that was the kid's life long dream? Well, because of some lazy teacher ten years ago, you can forget about it.

For the teacher to take a "shortcut" it involves putting a kid on drugs. This no longer affects just the teacher but now can affect that kid, both in the short and long terms. Just like an engineer or police officer deciding to take a shortcut of their own because their work is hard.

Is it all that understandable now?
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