Zero Tolerence in Action.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-01-04 06:21am

If 13 is an inappropriate age to be handling your meds, when would be a good age? I'd like to file that info away for when my kids get older.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-01-04 07:00am

Darth Wong wrote:
Solauren wrote:The irony is, schools have zero-tolerncy policies, then they tell the parents to put there kids on Ritaline and other mind-control/altering drugs
Snip

Oh, I agree with you 100% on that. Having attended 4 different public grade-schools, I know from first had experience there are lots of shithead teachers.
If you can't take hyper-active kids, don't teach Grade School.
Some people just should not be teaching anyone below the age of 14. Hell, there are teachers out there that should not be teaching a given subject, if at all (i.e my Grade 10 math teacher has no business teaching math, but would be an excellent shop or gym teacher)

Case in point, my sister's Grade-2 teacher made her life miserable. My sister would literally cry Sunday nights because she didn't want to see her teacher again Monday morning. Fortunately, her Grade 3 and Grade 4 teacher was a wonderful guy.

Now, back on topic, I've got an question

Schools with the Zero-Tolerence Policy; Aren't they required to notify parents about the 'no drugs in school' = 'this includes medication'

I agree, a low tolerence drug policy is the way to go. However, the enforcement on this one is piss-poor.

Instead of 'Drugs = Suspension/Explusion' immediately, Why didn't they contact the childs parents to find out if it was legitmate medicine and then request a doctors note and tell the parents the child is required to hand them to the school nurse?

I mean, that would make sense

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-01-04 08:34am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that it is the parents who should be punished here? A fourteen year old should not be expected to learn all the rules and regulations of a school today on her own--her parents should take the responsibility to read over them, and if they feel it is necessary, make the necessary arrangements themselves.

Hell yes. So often it comes down to crappy parenting. Teachers are not substitute parents, and it also goes the otherway around with "home schooling".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-01-04 01:10pm

Skelron wrote:ahh yes, because everything you say detracts from my points that Teachers are Underpaid, Overworked looking after an ungrateful publics Children for roughly 6 hours a Day five days a week.

30 hours a week is not a full workweek, moron. Teachers shouldn't whine that they have to keep working for 10-20 hours more; that would only fill out their workweek to normal workplace standards.

Yep Wong you really put me in my place, hell, I have no contact with the outside world and other peoples jobs, wait I understand the stresses placed on Police Officers, yas my Brother-in-Law is one, and on Nurses and on many Public Servents. All of them are Underpaid, Over worked and underappreciated.

Hey dumb-fuck, if EVERYONE is "underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated", then the terms lose all meaning, don't they? And teachers certainly can't hold them over people in other professions as proof that they deserve some kind of special sympathy rather than special responsibility.

Tell me do you think I was saying at any point that Ritalin was good, no of course not, I am against the thing, I am saying you should try and understand that Teaching is a hard profession, and a vital one. That those Bratty Kids can and do ruin it for the rest of the class, and that the best teachers in the world loose their patience. That for many of them there comes a point when you freaking want the one bad kid to be quiet so that the rest of the class can freaking learn, it takes one disruptive child to stop a class, one.

And it takes one shitty teacher to seriously fuck up a child's future, one. Forgive me for believing that fucking up a child's future is more important than irritating a teacher.

You say that all these other professions Engineer etc are stressful and importent and have never once mentioned that a Teacher has one of the most importent jobs going, they look after your Child for six hours a day educate them, keep them safe, etc, but not just your child but other peoples children...

And how is this more "important" than all the other people who keep our society running? Do you know where we would be if all the sewage treatment and water treatment plants suddenly stopped working? Or the power plants stopped working? Society is a co-operative effort, and all of the major professions have to pull their weight. Teachers are no exception, but they expect us to treat them like martyrs for what they do, while the rest of us presumably have cushy country-club jobs where no one ever gets criticized or overworked or underpaid or stressed.

but hay I don't know what I am talking about obviously I'm safly protected in my Tax funded bubble, and never have to worry about such things.

Yes you are. Your sarcasm belies the fact that you have demonstrated this to be true with your utterly idiotic statement that engineers never have to worry about being criticized if they aren't negligent.

As for free periods erm did you not notice me mention that my Father has less problems with having to take work home with him due to these, I had already expressed that this lessened his work load... Way to catch me out there...

Yes, I did point out that your Appeal to Mommy and Daddy is a pathetic way to prove anything. Whoops, were you trying to prove me wrong? Nope, you were just acting like a whiny bitch. I see no attempt at a rebuttal.

Still thats it all I am going to say on the matter, this is a pointless excercise, as you seem to think I started to argue no one else had these problems, when all I was pointing out that they are stressed and underpaid, so I will ask you one simple question. If an easier solution to a problem was offered to your profession would people take it... even if it where similar to Ritalin and would you not say that while it was wrong, it was understandable because in the end these are people with limits to their patience, or would you stay true to the argument you have presented here.

Not if that solution meant increasing the risk to the general public in order to cut down on our work stress. That is the entire point of the engineering oath, you blithering idiot.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-01-04 02:09pm

30 hours a week is not a full workweek, moron. Teachers shouldn't whine that they have to keep working for 10-20 hours more; that would only fill out their workweek to normal workplace standards.

Although I agree with you that are off a lot, teachers do work more than just 30 hours as the other guy implies. They work at least 50 hours a week outside of class combined with in class. At least at my school, teachers stayed after school an hour and beyond on certain days 4-5 hours for coaching and extra -curricular teaching.

Teachers also have to develope extensive lesson plans and grade work at home which takes several hours, I have been told.

So it ends up being like what you are saying--a normal, if not more intense workweek than some.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-01-04 02:13pm

Edit* It really depends on which school you frequent or who the teacher is. A lot of teachers are damned lazy anyway and don't do anything. They need some type of standard.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-01-04 02:14pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:If 13 is an inappropriate age to be handling your meds, when would be a good age? I'd like to file that info away for when my kids get older.

Probably when they can legally drive.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-01-04 02:14pm

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:So it ends up being like what you are saying--a normal, if not more intense workweek than some.

With that not-so-small caveat that once you have seniority you practically have to murder someone in order to get fired.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-01-04 02:17pm

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Edit* It really depends on which school you frequent or who the teacher is. A lot of teachers are damned lazy anyway and don't do anything. They need some type of standard.

The problem is the "poison pill" personnel issue which will vary from school to school. In a typical office, you might have one bad apple that constantly complains, constantly shirks his work responsibilities, etc. If that person is allowed to operate unchecked on an indefinite basis, his attitude will eventually spread to his coworkers. They will grouse, they will complain, and they will tend to drop to his level because, after all, he gets away with it, so why should they work their asses off?

In a non-union job, the solution is simple: you fire that guy. This removes the poison-pill from the office as well as sending a message to the other employees. But in a big union shop, particularly a government employee union, you can't do that. So the poison-pill problem remains: a school which has a group of good teachers might not be susceptible for a long time, but all you need to do is get one or two assholes in there and it will spread like a fucking cancer.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-01-04 02:31pm

Darth Wong wrote: With that not-so-small caveat that once you have seniority you practically have to murder someone in order to get fired.

Oh Hell YES, this ties into one of the major annoyances of seniority in the teaching profession, teachers start out eager, work tons of hours per week, then start slacking off, our math teacher, brilliant man that he is, has no idea we are not mindless math robots, by tasking us like 3 hours of Homework, yet refuses to check tests untill we badger him about it.

There should be checks, constant checks, in that profession, there is too much oppertunity for teachers to slack off and induce harm.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-01-04 03:39pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that it is the parents who should be punished here? A fourteen year old should not be expected to learn all the rules and regulations of a school today on her own--her parents should take the responsibility to read over them, and if they feel it is necessary, make the necessary arrangements themselves.

Punishing this girl is stupid and ridiculous. It's clearly a medicine she was given by a doctor, for a very real condition, which she has undoubtably been told that she needs. She's fourteen years old--why aren't her parents being held accountable? Maybe if, instead of expelling the kid, they made her parents spend a couple days in jail and slap them with a hefty fine, they'd take the requirement of teaching their daughter seriously, like they should have to have prevented this from happening in the first place.

Your out of your mind

!

The kid was seen by a doctor, presumably sent there by the parents, and prescribed medicine for a medical problem. The only thing the parents did wrong was sit there and let the school become a super beuracracy.

Now I agree that at demand, she better be able to shit out a prescription or even have mom and pop write out a note to the office or some shit, but to expel someone for having her doctor prescribed medicine on her is so ridiculous it hurts.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-01-04 04:32pm

it's especially bad since they don't take into account the consequences of expelling students--espeically good students who have done nothing wrong. It creates at least 3x the problems and it doesn't act as a deterrant according to the NMHA.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-01-04 04:50pm

I think it depends on the kid and the parents. My 9-year-old nephew takes allergy medication every morning. He's smart and responsible enought to keep track of it. My brother and sister-in-law trust him with his meds. I could see 12-14 year olds being allowed to handle their own medicine at school. Again, it depends on the kid.

In this case, the girl's parents knew what she was taking. SHE knew what she was taking, so the school should butt the fuck out, unless they have reason to believe she was giving drugs out to other kids (unlikely with the drug in question). Even then, they should contact the parents, not expel her.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2005-01-04 09:05pm

Knife wrote:
Your out of your mind :shock: !

The kid was seen by a doctor, presumably sent there by the parents, and prescribed medicine for a medical problem. The only thing the parents did wrong was sit there and let the school become a super beuracracy.

Now I agree that at demand, she better be able to shit out a prescription or even have mom and pop write out a note to the office or some shit, but to expel someone for having her doctor prescribed medicine on her is so ridiculous it hurts.

If the parents thought they could get punished, I am sure they would have exercised some sort of positive control or at least education to their daughter over medications laws and regulations. This is just basic common sense for an adult--but it isn't for a child. Not that I'm saying that the rules aren't ridiculously stupid, just that its the parents' fault that they weren't followed, not the child's, making them not just stupid but also punishing the wrong person.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-05 12:00am

At least she showed up to school. Better than we can say for an increasingly useless segment of ze population.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-05 12:04am

I was coming home to an empty house and dealing with dinner solo since before I had to put write two numbers down to describe my age. Forgive me if I don't buy into this 'children can't handle any sort of decisions themselves' bullshit, I've been on the far side of that, and you know what? I quite obviously failed to commit suicide in the mean time.