The best choreographed lightsabre fight in Star Wars?

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Post by YT300000 »

Laird wrote:Ah ha! found it!
Art of the saber.(Right click save as)

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Post by Howedar »

ROTJ takes the cake. Music, emotion, passion, all that good shit. And lightning.
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Post by Eleas »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:In AoTC, Dooku's fights with Obi-Wan and Anakin are excellent, because he takes both of them down in a rapid no-nonsense series of moves. The Yoda fight is shit.
I agreed with you initially, but upon watching Dooku's fight I came to feel differently. Dooku's swings are far too wide. He twirls, he hammers, he ignores numerous opportunities to slash Obi-Wan or Anakin at painfully obvious openings. The way he takes out Obi-Wan is well done - I like the surgically precise cuts - but Dooku's style should be dependent on short, crisp moves from the wrist, not this unholy amalgam of epee and two-handed sword techniques.

And, of course, in the purely aesthetical sense, the camera work of most of the AOTC ending fight is decidedly subpar. The only part I felt impressed me was the close-up scenes of Dooku and Anakin fighting in the darkness, illuminated only by the glow of their lightsabres. The rest is lackluster. There's even one exchange between Dooku and Obi-Wan where both are in full movement, it cuts, and both are suddenly standing still and facing each other, with no transition. Frankly, it looked like complete shit.
Pablo Sanchez wrote:The original trilogy fights are pretty good, and they have much more emotional content, which can be important. They score major points over the prequel trilogy because they carry the impression of men trying to hurt eachother much more than the sword-dancing bullshit in TPM and AoTC.
Indeed. IIRC, "Hero of a thousand faces" pegs SW as a traditional heroes' tale, the knight mythos. What's interesting there is that nowhere does said archetype describe the Dark Knight or the Hero as having to be particularly skilled. The Dark Knight has to be dangerous and evil, yes, but the "collective mythos" says nothing about him being a technically brilliant swordsman. Indeed, it says nothing about anyone's abilities as fencers. The mythos is about hardship, heroism and greatness, and, as many would agree, merely being proficient at using a sword does not a great warrior make.

Partially, this is what the LOTR crew succeeded with their portrayal of the Witch-King in ROTK. He neither exhibited nor required any great skill as a warrior; certainly nothing proportionate to his age. Fancy techniques, after all, mean very little when you can call upon the massive power that the Witch-King of Angmar had at his disposal. Not to mention that fucking anvil he uses in battle.
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Post by wolveraptor »

at one point, anakin simply freezes, standing still, while dooku twirls around and slashes his arm out. i was like, "what...the fuck. that looked SO dumb."
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Post by Eleas »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bob Brown always seemed to imply that the OT fights were technically more sound and conservative, (esp. TESB and ANH).
Here's my five cents (keeping in mind that my flirt with Kendo was somewhat brief):

* Qui-Gon fought nearly flawlessly. There was some twirly movements, but he was always balanced. His driving back Maul on the catwalk demonstrated very good Sanshin, which is something to look for.
* No doubt thanks to Ray Park's influence, Maul fights well in that he uses openings given to him in order to achieve something. Whether it is to humiliate Obi-Wan or attain a tactically superior position, he's never content to simply bash it out.
* Obi-Wan in AOTC demonstrates a cautious guard and seems mentally oriented on the battle. Nevertheless he's seen to leave his guard open in order to twirl, which isn't really advisable; what's worse, he's still far too reckless and offensive.
* Mace Windu in AOTC is kind of bizarre. Such wide movements should be unnecessary for parrying blaster bolts; it seems as if Windu cuts away each bolt out of the air, and he looks far too stiff and languid. He should be moving about much more; if he's such an accomplished fighter, he should be aware that movement is the most important of all, and know enought to swiftly enter into the midst of the opposition, where they would have a difficult time to react to his prescence.
* Anakin is kind of interesting. Looks like fairly standard kenjutsu, with strong offensive stances and powerful cuts designed to cleave through enemies. His flaws are also easily excused; he's not meant to be perfect.
* The jedi from the Arena... well, the less said, the better. Suffice to say there's a very good reason most of them died.
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Post by Aki-Wan Hanabi »

the best choreographed fight was in TPM, the fight with most passion and feeling was in ESB or ROJ
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Post by Karza »

The OT duels are good on storytelling, but the styles used seem stupid to me. The guys are armed with practically weightless swords and they swing them around like baseball bats :P. It just doesn't make much sense to me (although I admit I know absolutely nothing about fencing, but still). Also, the ROTJ end duel has The Most Ridiculous Moment Of All Duels: At the end when Vader falls down, he just slumps. Luke doesn't even hit him there, Vader simply dodges one of Luke's sledgehammer blows and falls down without any apparent reason.

AOTC also has two almost similar situations: Both Obi's and Anakin's fights with Dooku end quite dully. In both cases, the loser just seems to freeze for a second to be struck down, almost like they were mere actors doing a scripted scene :lol: . Looks laughable. In that respect Qui-Gon's death in TPM is the best, since the deathblow comes quickly out of the blue.

My favourite is Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. It's fast, flashy and furious. And it's ending seems "real", not planned.
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Post by Stofsk »

Karza wrote:The OT duels are good on storytelling, but the styles used seem stupid to me. The guys are armed with practically weightless swords and they swing them around like baseball bats :P.
So? Baseball bats don't weigh all that much to begin with. Neither do shinai - bamboo swords kendoka use to train with. Bokken aren't all THAT heavy either, and you can easily kill someone with them. (Bokken = oaken sword)
It just doesn't make much sense to me (although I admit I know absolutely nothing about fencing, but still).
OT duels were basically trying to emulate samurai fighting, and as Pablo Sanchez mentioned earlier, Akira Kurosawa really is the master of those kinds of films. (and FYI, Lucas emulated Kurosawa when he was creating ANH)

And it's not like this emulation is universal throughout the OT either, as Irvin Kirshner directed Prowse to wield his 'saber onehanded in the opening movements of the ESB duel. Lucas was upset by this decision, because he wanted the 'saber duels to look samurai clashes; Kirshner's decision does make Vader look fucking awesome though ("Ok kiddo, show me what you got - I'll put my left hand behind my back to give you fucking hope.")

The person responsible for the PT duels, one Nick Gillard IIRC, has epeeist fencing influences (and you can tell Dooku's 'saber corresponds with this influence, and apparently Dooku's style of 'sabering is a dedicated swordfighting school, while someone like Obi-wan's is IIRC a 'anti-blaster' school, though I don't know if that's true). The PT duels also introduced the idiotic 'saber swirl habit Obi-wan can't seem to shake off.
Also, the ROTJ end duel has The Most Ridiculous Moment Of All Duels: At the end when Vader falls down, he just slumps. Luke doesn't even hit him there, Vader simply dodges one of Luke's sledgehammer blows and falls down without any apparent reason.
He probably tripped on his cape. Capes do that sometimes, they're the bane of all self-conscious Sith Lords.
AOTC also has two almost similar situations: Both Obi's and Anakin's fights with Dooku end quite dully. In both cases, the loser just seems to freeze for a second to be struck down, almost like they were mere actors doing a scripted scene :lol:
Though I haven't read it, the novelisation of AOTC suggests IIRC that the duels are not solely dexterity checks between the two antagonists, but mental duels as well. Essentially, while on film we see Hayden and Lee swing and parry and counter-attack, in the book the battle is also being waged on another level. That is why he seems to paused just before Dooku sliced off his arm. Some kind of Force related juju stunned him briefly and that opening was all Dooku needed. Incidentally, a similar event happened in TPM between Obi-wan and Maul. Though Maul decided to Force-push Obi-wan down the bottomless pit of DOOM, rather than skewer him like he did Qui-gon.
Looks laughable. In that respect Qui-Gon's death in TPM is the best, since the deathblow comes quickly out of the blue.

My favourite is Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. It's fast, flashy and furious. And it's ending seems "real", not planned.
It's nice, but a little too insane. I liked Maul's doublebladed 'saber, although I think the hilt should have been much longer than it was (it should have been 2-3 ft in length IMO).
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Post by Karza »

Stofsk wrote:
Karza wrote:The OT duels are good on storytelling, but the styles used seem stupid to me. The guys are armed with practically weightless swords and they swing them around like baseball bats :P.
So? Baseball bats don't weigh all that much to begin with. Neither do shinai - bamboo swords kendoka use to train with. Bokken aren't all THAT heavy either, and you can easily kill someone with them. (Bokken = oaken sword)
I think you misunderstood what I meant. My point is that it seems stupid to me to use such heavy swings, since the weight of the weapon (or the lack of it) would permit far faster swings, and most of all, lightning quick thrusts. Since the weapon weighs practically nothing, but cuts almost anything without any resistance at all, you don't NEED to swing it so hard. All you need to do is actually hit the opponent. It doesn't matter how hard a swing it is, since that has practically no effect on the blade's cutting ability.

You just need to hit the blade home, and achieving that would be easier by using quick slashes and thrusts instead of those baseball bat -style swings.

And I know the explanation for those "freeze just prior to defeat" moments, but it still makes the ending look ridiculous. I just can't help it.
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Post by Stofsk »

Karza wrote:My point is that it seems stupid to me to use such heavy swings, since the weight of the weapon (or the lack of it) would permit far faster swings, and most of all, lightning quick thrusts.
There's no need for lightning fast thrusts.
Since the weapon weighs practically nothing, but cuts almost anything without any resistance at all, you don't NEED to swing it so hard.
Swinging hard has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon. Indeed they don't really swing all that hard in the OT duels.

Furthermore, the OT duels and the PT duels have the same lightsabers, and they swing just as hard with both hands in the PT era than they do in the OT. The only difference is that in the OT we see a cyborg that's really a shadow of the man he once was, an old man who may have been a little out of practice (yet if you see Sir Alec Guiness in action, he remains completely composed throughout that duel, and always on the defensive, whereas Vader's attacks weren't succeeding and were tiring him out), and a young man who's experience with 'saberfighting is talented improv and little else (not that's a bad thing mind you, Musashi also taught himself IIRC).
All you need to do is actually hit the opponent. It doesn't matter how hard a swing it is, since that has practically no effect on the blade's cutting ability.
They've got precog, and really it's not a matter of 'who swings quickest wins' but 'who outthinks the other wins'.
You just need to hit the blade home, and achieving that would be easier by using quick slashes and thrusts instead of those baseball bat -style swings.
No, that would not be easier to achieve as you think.

Ever fenced before? In fencing, you win by breaking tempo with your opponent. You see this all the time. Unmatched opponents have bouts that are short, because they tend to be over 5-0. Well-matched opponents can go at it for ages, constantly parrying and riposting, and the only way they win is if they mentally outgun the opponent, and being quick is not a surefire way to win because the OTHER guy can be quick or quicker. The trick is, you have to be quicker than them for a split second, or slower than them (so they overcompensate for a parry, miss because you've slowly disengaged, and daintly hit sixth or kart). Sometimes those slow, heavy swings serve a purpose.

Also, once you've bouted for awhile your arms get tired, and you kinda have to put more muscle into your swings, either that or quit. Another reason for those heavy swings is the beat-attack - wherein you use MUSCLE to try and tire out the other guy's arms in a game of attrition.
And I know the explanation for those "freeze just prior to defeat" moments, but it still makes the ending look ridiculous. I just can't help it.
They look jarring, yes. I don't mind them myself.
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Post by Karza »

Well, this pretty much sums it up:
Stofsk wrote:Ever fenced before?
Like I said, no I bloody well haven't :D. (Except for a few matches with plastic rod-plus-styrofoam-plus-duct tape "swords", but I was very, very drunk at the time. That probably doesn't count as fencing, hmm?)

Anyway, I stand corrected. Maybe I'll take up fencing once I'm through with military service.
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Post by Dead_Ghost »

Fav lightsaber fight in SW: I'm standing with two on equal grounds for me, Luke Vs Vader in RotJ, the music, the eerie scenario, the theme of FatherVsSon, the dark audience, what's not to love about it? However, I agree with Pablo Sanchez about TPM. That final showdown between Obi-Wan and Maul is awesome, with cool moves and heavy in emotions (I didn't had to read the novel to realise Obi-Wan had "accessed" the Dark Side after seeing Qui-Gon go down :twisted: ).
Yoda and Dooku is... exaggerated, with Yoda and all those jumps and spins and stuff! Liked that part with Dooku and Anakin fighting in the darkness and their faces being temporarily illuminated by their lightsabers (though I didn't like the fact that we couldn't see the moves completely, therefore giving me the idea that they were fake :( )
The whole Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan Vs Maul was very flashy and enthralling, though the fact that Qui-Gon never showed any feeling whatsoever kinda disappointed me.
And that Luke Vs Vader in TESB is quite good too, methinks. Kind'of like in a MMORPG, when a n00b tries his luck with taking out a pro, and getting his ass kicked big time :twisted: (I speak with self-experience from CS: Source :wink: )
EDIT: Nice, thanks for that resume in fencing Stofsk! :)
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Post by Eleas »

Stofsk wrote: Ever fenced before? In fencing, you win by breaking tempo with your opponent. You see this all the time. Unmatched opponents have bouts that are short, because they tend to be over 5-0. Well-matched opponents can go at it for ages, constantly parrying and riposting, and the only way they win is if they mentally outgun the opponent, and being quick is not a surefire way to win because the OTHER guy can be quick or quicker. The trick is, you have to be quicker than them for a split second, or slower than them (so they overcompensate for a parry, miss because you've slowly disengaged, and daintly hit sixth or kart). Sometimes those slow, heavy swings serve a purpose.
I have to agree with what you're saying, but not as unequivocally. Breaking the tempo is but one way of winning. You can also go for broke (i.e. if the opponent goes for Men, you go full-out for Do and hope he performs his technique as well as you do yours, causing his slash to go off the mark), or perform a technique the opponent doesn't expect (feinting toward the opponen't weapon and then, when he tries to resume guard, hit him in the head is a classic example of this type of "double technique").

One of the most embarrassing and decisive defeats I've been handed was by my sensei, who's also named Björn. At that time, he was 5th dan Kendo, IIRC. I was feeling under the weather and my killer instinct was shot to shit, so it might not have worked as well otherwise, but still - he made a couple of quick probes, paused... and then made a painfully slow, powerful cut that looked as if it took ages to connect. And despite that, it hit perfectly, because it was timed in such a way as to be confusing - I was expecting another near-instant blow, which didn't come. I later tried that move out on a friend, and it worked.
Also, once you've bouted for awhile your arms get tired, and you kinda have to put more muscle into your swings, either that or quit. Another reason for those heavy swings is the beat-attack - wherein you use MUSCLE to try and tire out the other guy's arms in a game of attrition.
That's a losing game, in my experience. Parries don't tire the defender very much, and blocking isn't widely taught in any school I can remember. If you've bouted for a while, you tend to adopt a less extravagant position, rather like the one Obi-Wan uses on the Death Star. You frustrate your furiously swinging opponent by keeping him at a distance until he overcommits.

If you've ever attended a championship, you'll probably have seen the seniors fighting this way, too. That is because they need to save up energy - the more fights they win, the closer their matches will be spaced, and they have progressively less chance to rest in between.
They look jarring, yes. I don't mind them myself.
I wouldn't have minded if the rest had looked good enough. It wasn't, IMHO.
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Post by Stofsk »

Eleas wrote:*snip*
You know, I have not fenced in ages, and your points really shoved that home for me. :) I agree, breaking the tempo is not the sole way of winning, just one of many. It just seems one of the most effective ways to do so, other than the flesh attack (which I never enjoyed doing).

In my mind though, tempo means timing, which is really essential for the swordsman. Knowing when to swing fast, swing slow, feint, parry-ripost, retreat, move forward, lunge and redouble and so on, just seems integral to mastering the blade. At least in my experience with bouting someone of equal skill, the only way I could win was by breaking tempo, or timing my attack in a particular way. The whole bout could have been quick slashes/thrusts, yet it ends with a slow lunge that he misses in the parry (because he's expecting a quick lunge and thus overcompensates).

What swordstyles have you learnt if I may ask? I've recently thought about getting back into training, just to give me something to do.
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Post by Eleas »

Stofsk wrote:
Eleas wrote:*snip*
You know, I have not fenced in ages, and your points really shoved that home for me. :) I agree, breaking the tempo is not the sole way of winning, just one of many. It just seems one of the most effective ways to do so, other than the flesh attack (which I never enjoyed doing).
I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?
In my mind though, tempo means timing, which is really essential for the swordsman. Knowing when to swing fast, swing slow, feint, parry-ripost, retreat, move forward, lunge and redouble and so on, just seems integral to mastering the blade.
Oh, it is, I agree completely. Timing is devastating, and it's one of the few things that don't go away with age.
At least in my experience with bouting someone of equal skill, the only way I could win was by breaking tempo, or timing my attack in a particular way. The whole bout could have been quick slashes/thrusts, yet it ends with a slow lunge that he misses in the parry (because he's expecting a quick lunge and thus overcompensates).
I agree. I fell for that one numerous times. Timing your attacks in a certain way can be, as you say, fatally confusing. Sometimes, when you set up a rythm, your opponent will fall into his own defensive rythm. I always love it when that happens.
What swordstyles have you learnt if I may ask? I've recently thought about getting back into training, just to give me something to do.
I've reached 3rd Kyu Kendo (nothing special, in other words), and I've done a bit Iaido and Aikido. Otherwise, it's all free-form, bashing my friends, and looking at pages on the internet. You've studied european fencing, I gather... saber or epee?
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Eleas wrote:I agreed with you initially, but upon watching Dooku's fight I came to feel differently. Dooku's swings are far too wide. He twirls, he hammers, he ignores numerous opportunities to slash Obi-Wan or Anakin at painfully obvious openings. The way he takes out Obi-Wan is well done - I like the surgically precise cuts - but Dooku's style should be dependent on short, crisp moves from the wrist, not this unholy amalgam of epee and two-handed sword techniques.
As I don't have any background in fencing I can't really spot fine details.
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Post by Manus Celer Dei »

:shock: Art Of The Saber is awesome. If RoTS is half as good as that I'll be happy :D

I Liked the Yoda/Dooku fight the first time I saw it, but afterwards I realised it was a bit stupid, but nowhere near as bad as the Anakin/Dooku nonsense. That was just terrible.

Vader/Luke in ESB has got to be my favourite though. The build, the tension, the music, the entire thing. And the end, of course.
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Post by SirNitram »

It's worth remembering that the OT duels aren't meant to be pretty. We've got a sixty year old hermit, a cripple in a portable iron lung, and an untrained child.

Ben Kenobi fights conservatively because he can't move fast. Vader batters his opponent into submission because sheer brute force is all he has left. And Luke swings wildly and poorly because all he has is raw Force sensitivity.
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Post by Thanas »

My favorite is the Maul fight (It looks cool) and the Doku vs Anankin/Obiwan fight (for style and control). Altough the latter was not that interesting IMHO, since it was quite clear the two didn't stand a chance.
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Post by Vain »

Eleas wrote:I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?
He's referring to a 'fleche', which is pronounced similarly to flesh. A fleche is when you suddenly shift your weight forward and charge past your opponent in an attempt to surprise/overwhelm them and hit them on the way by. Generally, I've been less than impressed with the results of attempting them, but it can be surprisingly effective if you are quick on your feet and have a feel for the timing (which you two have already addressed).
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Post by Eleas »

Vain wrote:
Eleas wrote:I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?
He's referring to a 'fleche', which is pronounced similarly to flesh. A fleche is when you suddenly shift your weight forward and charge past your opponent in an attempt to surprise/overwhelm them and hit them on the way by. Generally, I've been less than impressed with the results of attempting them, but it can be surprisingly effective if you are quick on your feet and have a feel for the timing (which you two have already addressed).
Actually, there is an equivalent in modern Kendo. The belly cut, Do, is oftentimes employed in a sidestepping advance, timed so that the opponent's attack flashes by. It can also be used to preempt the opponent's attack as he raises his sword and bares his torso. If you pass by on his right, the blow goes from left shoulder to slightly above the right hip; it essentially lays the opponent wide open.

(Edit: Though I don't have any experienced with the fleche. It strikes me as a risky move, but if your opponent isn't aware of its existence, I suppose it could be deadly.)
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Post by Vain »

(Edit: Though I don't have any experienced with the fleche. It strikes me as a risky move, but if your opponent isn't aware of its existence, I suppose it could be deadly.)
It is risky, and it's not exactly a secret. The keyword here is speed. You don't see the 60 year old men doing it. You see the 20 year old guys with amazing speed and range doing it to the sixty year old men. Although I suppose it might have some use in classical dueling, my thought on it is that it is part and parcel to the nature of modern fencing as a sport. If I and my opponent touch each other at the same time, only one of us gets a point, and that one is the one with the right of way. Right of way was a really tough concept for me to implement when I was younger, but a fleche, correctly executed, is a good way to seize it, because it doesn't matter if your opponent hits you as well, which he frequently will.
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Lord Pounder
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Manus Celer Dei wrote:I Liked the Yoda/Dooku fight the first time I saw it, but afterwards I realised it was a bit stupid, but nowhere near as bad as the Anakin/Dooku nonsense. That was just terrible.
I think the major impact of Yoda/Dooku was just seeing Yoda in action, any action. Throughout the previous movies Yoda seemed to tax himeslf just walking down a corridor then all of a sudden he's bouncing all over the place like a large frog on a Red Bull drip.
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Post by Eleas »

Vain wrote: It is risky, and it's not exactly a secret. The keyword here is speed. You don't see the 60 year old men doing it. You see the 20 year old guys with amazing speed and range doing it to the sixty year old men. Although I suppose it might have some use in classical dueling, my thought on it is that it is part and parcel to the nature of modern fencing as a sport. If I and my opponent touch each other at the same time, only one of us gets a point, and that one is the one with the right of way. Right of way was a really tough concept for me to implement when I was younger, but a fleche, correctly executed, is a good way to seize it, because it doesn't matter if your opponent hits you as well, which he frequently will.
Okay, I admit my question was kinda stupid. :)

The concept of "right of way" is one I actually don't like very much. Much like the tennis-esque restrictions on modern Kendo, I feel the "sport" emphasis does away with the spirit of things. It removes you from the basics and (particularly in Kendo) disallows the use of potentially decisive techniques. It always made me wonder why they even want to call it fencing.
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Post by wolveraptor »

^^ that's why i don't like the foil (sp?). i like the eppe (sp?). right of way seems...restrictive.
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