Ah yes, Crouching Star Wars, Hidden Matrix. With the credits from Gladiator.
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Moderator: Vympel
Ah yes, Crouching Star Wars, Hidden Matrix. With the credits from Gladiator.
I agreed with you initially, but upon watching Dooku's fight I came to feel differently. Dooku's swings are far too wide. He twirls, he hammers, he ignores numerous opportunities to slash Obi-Wan or Anakin at painfully obvious openings. The way he takes out Obi-Wan is well done - I like the surgically precise cuts - but Dooku's style should be dependent on short, crisp moves from the wrist, not this unholy amalgam of epee and two-handed sword techniques.Pablo Sanchez wrote:In AoTC, Dooku's fights with Obi-Wan and Anakin are excellent, because he takes both of them down in a rapid no-nonsense series of moves. The Yoda fight is shit.
Indeed. IIRC, "Hero of a thousand faces" pegs SW as a traditional heroes' tale, the knight mythos. What's interesting there is that nowhere does said archetype describe the Dark Knight or the Hero as having to be particularly skilled. The Dark Knight has to be dangerous and evil, yes, but the "collective mythos" says nothing about him being a technically brilliant swordsman. Indeed, it says nothing about anyone's abilities as fencers. The mythos is about hardship, heroism and greatness, and, as many would agree, merely being proficient at using a sword does not a great warrior make.Pablo Sanchez wrote:The original trilogy fights are pretty good, and they have much more emotional content, which can be important. They score major points over the prequel trilogy because they carry the impression of men trying to hurt eachother much more than the sword-dancing bullshit in TPM and AoTC.
Here's my five cents (keeping in mind that my flirt with Kendo was somewhat brief):Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bob Brown always seemed to imply that the OT fights were technically more sound and conservative, (esp. TESB and ANH).
So? Baseball bats don't weigh all that much to begin with. Neither do shinai - bamboo swords kendoka use to train with. Bokken aren't all THAT heavy either, and you can easily kill someone with them. (Bokken = oaken sword)Karza wrote:The OT duels are good on storytelling, but the styles used seem stupid to me. The guys are armed with practically weightless swords and they swing them around like baseball bats.
OT duels were basically trying to emulate samurai fighting, and as Pablo Sanchez mentioned earlier, Akira Kurosawa really is the master of those kinds of films. (and FYI, Lucas emulated Kurosawa when he was creating ANH)It just doesn't make much sense to me (although I admit I know absolutely nothing about fencing, but still).
He probably tripped on his cape. Capes do that sometimes, they're the bane of all self-conscious Sith Lords.Also, the ROTJ end duel has The Most Ridiculous Moment Of All Duels: At the end when Vader falls down, he just slumps. Luke doesn't even hit him there, Vader simply dodges one of Luke's sledgehammer blows and falls down without any apparent reason.
Though I haven't read it, the novelisation of AOTC suggests IIRC that the duels are not solely dexterity checks between the two antagonists, but mental duels as well. Essentially, while on film we see Hayden and Lee swing and parry and counter-attack, in the book the battle is also being waged on another level. That is why he seems to paused just before Dooku sliced off his arm. Some kind of Force related juju stunned him briefly and that opening was all Dooku needed. Incidentally, a similar event happened in TPM between Obi-wan and Maul. Though Maul decided to Force-push Obi-wan down the bottomless pit of DOOM, rather than skewer him like he did Qui-gon.AOTC also has two almost similar situations: Both Obi's and Anakin's fights with Dooku end quite dully. In both cases, the loser just seems to freeze for a second to be struck down, almost like they were mere actors doing a scripted scene
It's nice, but a little too insane. I liked Maul's doublebladed 'saber, although I think the hilt should have been much longer than it was (it should have been 2-3 ft in length IMO).Looks laughable. In that respect Qui-Gon's death in TPM is the best, since the deathblow comes quickly out of the blue.
My favourite is Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. It's fast, flashy and furious. And it's ending seems "real", not planned.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. My point is that it seems stupid to me to use such heavy swings, since the weight of the weapon (or the lack of it) would permit far faster swings, and most of all, lightning quick thrusts. Since the weapon weighs practically nothing, but cuts almost anything without any resistance at all, you don't NEED to swing it so hard. All you need to do is actually hit the opponent. It doesn't matter how hard a swing it is, since that has practically no effect on the blade's cutting ability.Stofsk wrote:So? Baseball bats don't weigh all that much to begin with. Neither do shinai - bamboo swords kendoka use to train with. Bokken aren't all THAT heavy either, and you can easily kill someone with them. (Bokken = oaken sword)Karza wrote:The OT duels are good on storytelling, but the styles used seem stupid to me. The guys are armed with practically weightless swords and they swing them around like baseball bats.
There's no need for lightning fast thrusts.Karza wrote:My point is that it seems stupid to me to use such heavy swings, since the weight of the weapon (or the lack of it) would permit far faster swings, and most of all, lightning quick thrusts.
Swinging hard has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon. Indeed they don't really swing all that hard in the OT duels.Since the weapon weighs practically nothing, but cuts almost anything without any resistance at all, you don't NEED to swing it so hard.
They've got precog, and really it's not a matter of 'who swings quickest wins' but 'who outthinks the other wins'.All you need to do is actually hit the opponent. It doesn't matter how hard a swing it is, since that has practically no effect on the blade's cutting ability.
No, that would not be easier to achieve as you think.You just need to hit the blade home, and achieving that would be easier by using quick slashes and thrusts instead of those baseball bat -style swings.
They look jarring, yes. I don't mind them myself.And I know the explanation for those "freeze just prior to defeat" moments, but it still makes the ending look ridiculous. I just can't help it.
Like I said, no I bloody well haven'tStofsk wrote:Ever fenced before?
- Concerning the topic "Jedi training and sexuality"Mark S wrote:Maybe they're allowed to have all the casual sex they want. It's not sex that's forbidden, it's attachment.
"Go forth and fuck her brains out, my young Padawan. Just remember, no cuddling and pillow talk afterwards."
I have to agree with what you're saying, but not as unequivocally. Breaking the tempo is but one way of winning. You can also go for broke (i.e. if the opponent goes for Men, you go full-out for Do and hope he performs his technique as well as you do yours, causing his slash to go off the mark), or perform a technique the opponent doesn't expect (feinting toward the opponen't weapon and then, when he tries to resume guard, hit him in the head is a classic example of this type of "double technique").Stofsk wrote: Ever fenced before? In fencing, you win by breaking tempo with your opponent. You see this all the time. Unmatched opponents have bouts that are short, because they tend to be over 5-0. Well-matched opponents can go at it for ages, constantly parrying and riposting, and the only way they win is if they mentally outgun the opponent, and being quick is not a surefire way to win because the OTHER guy can be quick or quicker. The trick is, you have to be quicker than them for a split second, or slower than them (so they overcompensate for a parry, miss because you've slowly disengaged, and daintly hit sixth or kart). Sometimes those slow, heavy swings serve a purpose.
That's a losing game, in my experience. Parries don't tire the defender very much, and blocking isn't widely taught in any school I can remember. If you've bouted for a while, you tend to adopt a less extravagant position, rather like the one Obi-Wan uses on the Death Star. You frustrate your furiously swinging opponent by keeping him at a distance until he overcommits.Also, once you've bouted for awhile your arms get tired, and you kinda have to put more muscle into your swings, either that or quit. Another reason for those heavy swings is the beat-attack - wherein you use MUSCLE to try and tire out the other guy's arms in a game of attrition.
I wouldn't have minded if the rest had looked good enough. It wasn't, IMHO.They look jarring, yes. I don't mind them myself.
You know, I have not fenced in ages, and your points really shoved that home for me.Eleas wrote:*snip*
I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?Stofsk wrote:You know, I have not fenced in ages, and your points really shoved that home for me.Eleas wrote:*snip*I agree, breaking the tempo is not the sole way of winning, just one of many. It just seems one of the most effective ways to do so, other than the flesh attack (which I never enjoyed doing).
Oh, it is, I agree completely. Timing is devastating, and it's one of the few things that don't go away with age.In my mind though, tempo means timing, which is really essential for the swordsman. Knowing when to swing fast, swing slow, feint, parry-ripost, retreat, move forward, lunge and redouble and so on, just seems integral to mastering the blade.
I agree. I fell for that one numerous times. Timing your attacks in a certain way can be, as you say, fatally confusing. Sometimes, when you set up a rythm, your opponent will fall into his own defensive rythm. I always love it when that happens.At least in my experience with bouting someone of equal skill, the only way I could win was by breaking tempo, or timing my attack in a particular way. The whole bout could have been quick slashes/thrusts, yet it ends with a slow lunge that he misses in the parry (because he's expecting a quick lunge and thus overcompensates).
I've reached 3rd Kyu Kendo (nothing special, in other words), and I've done a bit Iaido and Aikido. Otherwise, it's all free-form, bashing my friends, and looking at pages on the internet. You've studied european fencing, I gather... saber or epee?What swordstyles have you learnt if I may ask? I've recently thought about getting back into training, just to give me something to do.
As I don't have any background in fencing I can't really spot fine details.Eleas wrote:I agreed with you initially, but upon watching Dooku's fight I came to feel differently. Dooku's swings are far too wide. He twirls, he hammers, he ignores numerous opportunities to slash Obi-Wan or Anakin at painfully obvious openings. The way he takes out Obi-Wan is well done - I like the surgically precise cuts - but Dooku's style should be dependent on short, crisp moves from the wrist, not this unholy amalgam of epee and two-handed sword techniques.
He's referring to a 'fleche', which is pronounced similarly to flesh. A fleche is when you suddenly shift your weight forward and charge past your opponent in an attempt to surprise/overwhelm them and hit them on the way by. Generally, I've been less than impressed with the results of attempting them, but it can be surprisingly effective if you are quick on your feet and have a feel for the timing (which you two have already addressed).Eleas wrote:I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?
Actually, there is an equivalent in modern Kendo. The belly cut, Do, is oftentimes employed in a sidestepping advance, timed so that the opponent's attack flashes by. It can also be used to preempt the opponent's attack as he raises his sword and bares his torso. If you pass by on his right, the blow goes from left shoulder to slightly above the right hip; it essentially lays the opponent wide open.Vain wrote:He's referring to a 'fleche', which is pronounced similarly to flesh. A fleche is when you suddenly shift your weight forward and charge past your opponent in an attempt to surprise/overwhelm them and hit them on the way by. Generally, I've been less than impressed with the results of attempting them, but it can be surprisingly effective if you are quick on your feet and have a feel for the timing (which you two have already addressed).Eleas wrote:I'm not well versed in european fencing. I assume the "flesh attack" consists of shallow cuts to wear down your opponent?
It is risky, and it's not exactly a secret. The keyword here is speed. You don't see the 60 year old men doing it. You see the 20 year old guys with amazing speed and range doing it to the sixty year old men. Although I suppose it might have some use in classical dueling, my thought on it is that it is part and parcel to the nature of modern fencing as a sport. If I and my opponent touch each other at the same time, only one of us gets a point, and that one is the one with the right of way. Right of way was a really tough concept for me to implement when I was younger, but a fleche, correctly executed, is a good way to seize it, because it doesn't matter if your opponent hits you as well, which he frequently will.(Edit: Though I don't have any experienced with the fleche. It strikes me as a risky move, but if your opponent isn't aware of its existence, I suppose it could be deadly.)
I think the major impact of Yoda/Dooku was just seeing Yoda in action, any action. Throughout the previous movies Yoda seemed to tax himeslf just walking down a corridor then all of a sudden he's bouncing all over the place like a large frog on a Red Bull drip.Manus Celer Dei wrote:I Liked the Yoda/Dooku fight the first time I saw it, but afterwards I realised it was a bit stupid, but nowhere near as bad as the Anakin/Dooku nonsense. That was just terrible.
Okay, I admit my question was kinda stupid.Vain wrote: It is risky, and it's not exactly a secret. The keyword here is speed. You don't see the 60 year old men doing it. You see the 20 year old guys with amazing speed and range doing it to the sixty year old men. Although I suppose it might have some use in classical dueling, my thought on it is that it is part and parcel to the nature of modern fencing as a sport. If I and my opponent touch each other at the same time, only one of us gets a point, and that one is the one with the right of way. Right of way was a really tough concept for me to implement when I was younger, but a fleche, correctly executed, is a good way to seize it, because it doesn't matter if your opponent hits you as well, which he frequently will.