Stormtroopers=Marines

[Lord Sander]

Yeah, the Empire doesn't exactly follow terrestrial organisation to the letter. The Navy and Air Force are basically the same branch in the Empire (fighters belonging to either the Navy or Army garrisons). Navy Troopers fulfill some aspects of the traditional Marine, Stormtroopers others, as well as some SS-like aspects, etc.

[Sea Skimmer]

No. But the Marine Corps has its budget from the USN, and this is highly unlikely in the Imperial Navy.

Actually the USMC's budget is independent of that of the USN. Though that was not always the case.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just that calling them "Marines", normally suggest they're under the Navy. As for paramilitary, the SA were the paramilitaries. The SS Waffen, which is the equivalent I was thinking of, serve as either a Praetorian Guard or elite shock troops.

Well you're wrong; they're obviously Marines both literally and semantically. And since the USMC is not "under" the U.S. Naval service, you're bereft of a point there too. A more important distinction is that the Imperial Marines use Marine military ranks and are not civilians or subordinated to the political machine. The SS are also paramilitary troops. Ever wonder why they used SA ranks and not Army ones, dolt? The SS practically defined the fully-fledged paramilitary force.

I think the fact that we haven't seen if the Naval High Command or whatnot administrates the Stormtroopers as well is less important than the fact that they obviously use Marine ranks and are a branch of the armed forces, and not a paramilitary force like the SS. And you continue to ignore that the Empire has a direct SA/Waffen-SS analog in the COMPForce, which IS a paramilitary force.

This is echoed by the fact that the Royal Guard recruits from stormtroopers and rotates their personnel amongst them to gain combat experience, as for shock troops............

Except the Waffen SS didn't rotate in and out with Hitler's bodyguard, dumbass. The SS started out as Hitler's guard in the SA and the Waffen SS evolved out. The Imperial Marines start out as their own branch of the military and the Imperial Guard are later encorporated into their administration.

No. But the Marine Corps has its budget from the USN, and this is highly unlikely in the Imperial Navy.

Really, by what evidence do you make that leap, and since when is the particular minutae of who administers the finances more important than the fact the Stormtroopers use Marine ranks and are a branch of the military and the Waffen-SS were a paramilitary force using paramilitary ranks.

[Gunhead]

Waffen-SS wasn't a paramilitary force. It started out as Hitler bodyguards but were later made into full divisions. Operationally it was under the command of the wehrmacht. They did enjoy special status because of Hitlers favoritism, but were part of the normal fighting formations. SS had their own ranks to promote the "We're better" sentiment, and because they started out as "special" bodyguard unit.

-Gunhead

[Illuminatus Primus]

Waffen-SS wasn't a paramilitary force. It started out as Hitler bodyguards but were later made into full divisions. Operationally it was under the command of the wehrmacht. They did enjoy special status because of Hitlers favoritism, but were part of the normal fighting formations. SS had their own ranks to promote the "We're better" sentiment, and because they started out as "special" bodyguard unit.

-Gunhead

Ah, so because it fought on the lines, it wasn't a paramilitary unit?

par·a·mil·i·tar·y
adj.

Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.

Shit, I don't know where a paramilitary unit can operate in place of or in assistance to the regular army if not fighting in formations at the line.

The Schutzstaffel (Protective Squadron), or SS, was a large paramilitary organizationthat belonged to the Nazi party.

SS
n.

An elite quasi-military unit of the Nazi party that served as Hitler's personal guard and as a special security force in Germany and the occupied countries.


[German, abbr. for Schutzstaffel : Schutz, defense + Staffel, echelon.]


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[Gunhead]

Ah, so because it fought on the lines, it wasn't a paramilitary unit?

par·a·mil·i·tar·y
adj.

Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.

Shit, I don't know where a paramilitary unit can operate in place of or in assistance to the regular army if not fighting in formations at the line.

Waffen SS wasn't a group of civilians organized in military fashion.
They we're full fledged military formations. Partisans were paramilitary forces, or the Hitler jugend. Paramilitaries are used for rear duty such as convoy protection and the like. Only as a last resort are they deployed against enemy divisions.

The Schutzstaffel (Protective Squadron), or SS, was a large paramilitary organizationthat belonged to the Nazi party.

SS
n.

An elite quasi-military unit of the Nazi party that served as Hitler's personal guard and as a special security force in Germany and the occupied countries.


[German, abbr. for Schutzstaffel : Schutz, defense + Staffel, echelon.]


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[/quote]

Only a part of the waffen SS did security duty in occupied countries, others fought in the frontlines with the ragular army. Totenkopf to name one.

"Starting as Hitler's own praetorian gurad, the armed units of the SS were trained to standards of perfection. Not only did they look impressive on ceremonial occasions and on guard duty but they were soon built up to into full-sized divisions capable of taking the field alongside regular German army forces. There, given the time and experience, as well as top priority for new weaponsand equipment, several Waffen-SS divisions earned fighting reputation second to none."

-Hitler's war machine by salamander book

Next time when quoting about WWII don't give me some pasted shit from a dictionary.

-Gunhead

[Illuminatus Primus]

The fact it was organized into divisions and corps is inconsistent how or why with the fact the SS is paramilitary?

[Gunhead]

Because by definition paramilitary forces are not part of the regular military, the waffen SS was. SS did have a large paramilitary part too I'm not denying that, but most of it was frontline troops under the command of wehrmacht.
Also paramilitary forces rarely have access to tanks and artillery. Today it's even more blurred.

Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.

The key words are "group of civilians". Paramilitaries are used for secondary duties to replace frontline forces in areas where there is little or no threat.But are still civilians organized under a military style command. Paramilitaries were made of elderly men and youngsters, or were partisans fighting the occupiers.

The British Home Guard is good a example. It was used for air control
coast watching and other duties that needed doing but could be done by men not trained for fighting. The Home Guard was under the home office, not the army

Yuogoslav partisans were also paramilitary, but weren't a part of a national army.

Hope this clarifys it a bit

-Gunhead

[frigidmagi]

Because by definition paramilitary forces are not part of the regular military, the waffen SS was.

So the Waffen SS was intergrated into the Germen army when?

[Gunhead]

It was never formally integrated into the wehrmacht, but it was subordinate to it. In a very technical sense it could be said the Waffen-SS was a paramilitary unit, but by equipment and organization it was the elite of the wehrmacht. This is something even officers of the wehrmacht grudginly admitted after their asses had been saved by swift action by the SS.

-Gunhead

[frigidmagi]

Being Paramilitary has nothing to do with equipment.

[Gunhead]

Being Paramilitary has nothing to do with equipment.

Yes it does, paramilitaries don't receive the latest and greatest in military hardware, but are forced to get by with army leftovers.
In this sense Waffen-SS definitely wasn't paramilitary.

-Gunhead

[Illuminatus Primus]

Being Paramilitary has nothing to do with equipment.

Yes it does, paramilitaries don't receive the latest and greatest in military hardware, but are forced to get by with army leftovers.
In this sense Waffen-SS definitely wasn't paramilitary.

-Gunhead

That has precisely zip to do with the definition; you're holding an example to a fucking generalization and treating it like a definiting characteristic.

Am I the only one who sees why you shouldn't do that?

[Gunhead]

Being Paramilitary has nothing to do with equipment.

Yes it does, paramilitaries don't receive the latest and greatest in military hardware, but are forced to get by with army leftovers.
In this sense Waffen-SS definitely wasn't paramilitary.

^--- was just to point out there's a big difference between the equipment of a paramilitary unit and an army one. Paramilitaries use older weaponry and equipment, some paramilitary units are used in combat but this isn't the norm.

par·a·mil·i·tar·y
adj.

Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.

Primus quoted this, and pretty clearly explanained what it means.

Here's another nifty link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_ss <--- not the same as regular SS

-Gunhead

[Illuminatus Primus]

It just says its the armed wing of a described paramilitary group. Wow, that was really a force in your favor.

[Gunhead]

On topic for a change.

The Wehrmach/Waffen SS analogy applies if there is a normal Imperial army in addition to Stormtroopers. Wehrmach is the Imp. Army and Stormies are the Waffen-SS. This doesn't seem to be the case, as have been pointed out here and on other threads.


-Gunhead

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well Mr. "Don't Look on Dictionaries", the Wehrmacht is not the Army; its the armed forces in general; the Heer was the Army (interestingly, although the Waffen-SS often was commanded by OKW officers, it was not part of the Wehrmacht - literally, Defense Force). And on this very thread it was showed the Empire has a seperate Army.

[Gunhead]

Well Mr. "Don't Look on Dictionaries", the Wehrmacht is not the Army; its the armed forces in general; the Heer was the Army (interestingly, although the Waffen-SS often was commanded by OKW officers, it was not part of the Wehrmacht - literally, Defense Force).

Why do you think I said technically the Waffen-SS could be paramilitary?
They were 1st class troops with 1st class equipment.

Paramilitary= Militia
Paramilitaries are made of men with little or no military training.
PMs often include police, men too old serve, too young to serve or have some disability that prevents them from serving in the normal armed forces.


Wehrmacht is often used when speaking about the german army, yes heer is more accurate. (Actually heer is used pretty irregularily so I just forgot it )

And on this very thread it was showed the Empire has a seperate Army.

Well then the analogy is valid isn't it?

-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

Oh, fuck me!

I really shouldn't be doing this at 2am it seems.

Sorry bout that last post Primus.

-Gunhead

[kheegster]

*snip* And as a safeguard against the psychosis and instability of Mount Tantiss clones and the groupthink or lack of intelligence in Kaminoan clones, they fabricate their own false memories and unique personalities and fail to realize that they are clones. *snip*

That would probably explain why those two stormtroopers in ANH were discussing airspeeders while on duty.

[vakundok]

As I understood (the sometimes confusing) Wikipedia:
The SS had two main group:
- The General SS (called Allgemeine SS to separate from Waffen SS), a paramilitary group. It was treated as a police group.
- The Armed (Waffen) SS, a military group (not para-): "was considered a full branch of the German military".
(So, who was part of both, held two (usually) different SS ranks.)

So, saying that the stormtroopers are similar to SS (wrong) is very different from saying that the stormtroopers are similar to Waffen SS (true).

However, since marines are not part of the command chains of any other brands, I cannot see the difference between saying that the stormtroopers are imperial marines (which is official, continuity statement) and that the stormtroopers are similar to Waffen SS.

[Howedar]

No. But the Marine Corps has its budget from the USN, and this is highly unlikely in the Imperial Navy.

Actually the USMC's budget is independent of that of the USN. Though that was not always the case.

Okay that was what I thought.

[PainRack]

No. But the Marine Corps has its budget from the USN, and this is highly unlikely in the Imperial Navy.

Actually the USMC's budget is independent of that of the USN. Though that was not always the case.

Okie dokey.

[PainRack]

That has precisely zip to do with the definition; you're holding an example to a fucking generalization and treating it like a definiting characteristic.

Am I the only one who sees why you shouldn't do that?

So....... according to you, paramilitaries is any force that is set up and not under the control of the military? In that case,is the Chinese Armed Police force, which does fall under the purview of the Chinese Army in wartime a paramilitary force?

By that definition, is the Praetorian guard a paramilitary force?

[Coyote]

Well, there was the SS, which was formed out of the SA. THe SA was, indeed, a paramilitary as the SS started out. It was to be Hitler's bodyguard force, as stated. But it was realized that Hitler's bodyguards would notbe seen as much more than a parade-ground unit without being in combat, so it was determined to rotate them into the field.

We ended up with the Waffen SS, which received priority on tanks, equipment, and materiel. Because of this the Heer (reg. Army) frequently was jealous of the Waffen SS. Few Heer Divisions that I can recall right now were fully equipped and mechanized, the "Grossdeutschland" Division and the Afrika Korps (15th Panzer, 21st Panzer, 90th Flak [Luftwaffe]) being some these exceptions.

The first Waffen SS units to be rotated into battle were the LSSAH (Leibstandarte Schutzstaffeln Adolph Hitler) and later followed by the Totenkopf or Death Head regiment. These were followed by numerous others as they were formed, including "Das Reich" and "Polizeidivsion", formed out of German policemen (Polezei).

Complicating the matter was the formation of a seperate Totenkopfverbande, another quasi-Police organization, which was tasked to handle the Concentration camps. Both these formations and the Totenkopf Division wore the Death's Head insignia, as did the Panzertruppen, following the Death's Head tradition as Hussars.

ALL of this fell under the direction of the RSHA, or Reichs Sicherheits Haupt Amt, or Reich Central Security Bureau. The RSHA handled all security and defense matters coordinating the efforts of the entire SS organization in in many forms to the expansion of the Reich. The Waffen SS saw to the military expansion, the Totenkopfverbande saw to the carrying out of the Final Solution.

There was also the Geheime Staats Polezei (GeStaPo) and the Ordungspolizei, or KriPo (Kriminal-POlizei, ordinary cops). THe RSHA organized everything, from Amt IV-B, the office tasked with the rooting out of Jews specifically, to offices that coordinated spy missions in Allied nations. All while supporting and directing combat field operations in the combat theatres through the formation of the Einsatzgruppen which included Heer and Luftwaffe personnel as needed.

So the Waffen SS in the long run had more support, more equipment, more material, better supply and higher standards than the regular Heer. They were not, by definition, a group of civilians organized in a military fashion to lend support to Army operations. Frequently, the Army ended up supporting Waffen-SS spearheads. Hence the jealousy.

So to relate back to the subject at hand....

COMPNOR is the RSHA. It oversees the deployment and goals of the various elite and intelligence groups. Stormtroopers, like the Waffen SS, are instruments to carry out a particular political will or goal independent of strategic necessity. They do have a Waffen-SS analogous role. COMSCAN and so forth also support this overall effort, in more 'civilian-esque' ways analogous to law enforcement or spying.