No, that's not what a battleship is. Kudos goes if you can figure out what all the CAs and CBs in WW2 did. And I never said it was to be the very biggest; battlecruisers will always be the largest.SirNitram wrote:Because frankly that doesn't happen. This mindless idea of 'Battleship MUST equal biggest' misses the whole idea of the battleship: Dedicated fleet combatant.
Battleships must be nearly the largest ships by virtue of their role, though. Anyhow, ANH and ESB and ROTJ are quite incompatable with the ISD as HMS Dreadnought.
And to do this you gave a detailed analog in the Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet?SirNitram wrote:The point I was trying to make is there's no real direct line comparison to the multi-role ISD to modern ships, though this seems to hold true for most of the Imperial fleet(More on this later).
Semantical nitpicking; what a ship of the line does can be used in analog without the physical "lines" (curiously, the Rebel Sourcebook does imply direct usage of wet navy battle line tactics and gives the weak-ass excuse that commanders are restricted by evolving and thinking on terrestrial surfaces ).SirNitram wrote:Isn't this exactly what I said? It's not a battleship. And it can't be a ship of the line, because 'line' tactics have never been shown to be in the Imperial tactics.
Uh, I said it was "closer" not that it was directly used for the same. In terms of significant surface landing ops, the ISD, even in numbers, is grossly inadequate and its landing and armor capacity is totally underpar for something which is carrying troops supposedly for amphib type operations.SirNitram wrote:Heavy by these reasonings:
1) It carries troops, a prefab base, heavy armour, and IIRC, atmospheric craft. This far outstrips the puny marine complement of the Age Of Sail ships, as those were strictly for boarding ops. A prefab base and AT-AT are not for boarding.
Hahahahaha. Capital worlds? A sub-space flight colony like Earth can have 6 billion inhabitants. Geonosis has 100 billion inhabitants.SirNitram wrote:2) This prefab base, even undermanned as we see it, is considered enough for garrison duties, at least on a temporary scale, or for low-population worlds. Obviously, the same cannot be said for capital worlds.
So you compare it to convoy escorts and corvettes? Ok...that's really a good basis for comparison on the ISD's amphib ability, more so than dedicated troopships and amphibs.SirNitram wrote:3) Compared to other ships seen often.
Yeah, you have to invade and subjugate before landing a garrison. Unfortunately for you, then that definitely precludes the ISD as an amphib, which is designed for amphib assaults, not dumping a handful of token troops and armor for a garrison after the assault.SirNitram wrote:I assume you mean the TradeFed Battleship. Yes, these craft carried a buttload more troops. However, there is a serious difference between 'Invasion force' and 'Garrison force'.
Then you don't know what an amphib is.SirNitram wrote:Except for the fact it's explicitly stated to be able to set up a, at the very least temporary, garrison. While other craft can haul heavier groups, for a non-dedicated ship, it's got alot, and enough to accomplish most tasks.
No, in a galactic-scale civilization, its totally inadequate as an amphib.SirNitram wrote:No, it is rather obviously not as good as a dedicated troop transport. However, it is considered servicable for day to day duties.
What's that word you love so much? Oh yeah: semantics whore. You know zero data about the distribution of Imperial ship designs across the scale of construction from blockade runner to Executor, so do not pretend to know where the ISD lies. You don't know by quantitative scale, by simply observing the lowest and highest ranges, its clearly only in the middle (and then only logarthmically).SirNitram wrote:The sheer size of heavy warships.
No, it simply CANNOT DO what the other similar structures are due to ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE difference in volume. Its not an example of "shared" role, its an issue of Ship A is capable of this to that, and ship B is capable of this toooo THAT and excluding Ship A by a huge margin.SirNitram wrote:The onboard facilities are more than enough for most light craft. Again, I'm going by what's been stated about the ISD. Obviously, if you want the full-service option, you go to the huge hangars of an SSD. I'm trying to demonstrate the multi-role nature of the ISD, and you're nitpicking that it's not the best at each one. NO SHIT! Any competent person realizes a ship doing so many roles is going to be inferior to any kind of dedicated vessel.
Job against most? So what's that supposed to mean, it can do the equivalent of Interior Ministry choppers or Coast Guard aircraft?SirNitram wrote:Yet it's more than enough to get the job done against most. Congratulations: You've established the long-held common sense assumption that a dedicated vessel is superior at one task than a multi-role vessel. Pat yourself on the back.
Proof? Its stated to be capable of this explicitly.SirNitram wrote:The Eclipse can't hold a Victory. Her internal bays have the overall volume, but it don't actually fit through the doors.
Nice nitpick, but I'm sorry, the Ex's hangar is too shallow.SirNitram wrote:For this particular comment, try using the Executor, if you must.
No, whats in contest is that it was ever intended.SirNitram wrote:Yes, it's entirely political that there's not enough Executors for Sector commands. That isn't in contest.
Conjecture is not the same as implication. Conjecture is Martin Making Shit Up For Whatever Reason, and Implication is Martin Got An Idea From The Way Stuff Was Stated Somewhere. I want to see an example of that somewhere, since you pop this one up so regularly.SirNitram wrote:What, that Executors may eventually turn up in Sector Fleets as command? That's conjecture. Maybe I need to neon-yellow the word 'Implied' to make it clear it's not a definate. What's stated is that they aren't in the Sector Fleet listings I've seen. Those list 24 ISD's as the heaviest ships.
This is the kind of absurd "the roles are nearly equal" bullshit I encounter. The Eclipse couldn't run fighter cover for a decent fleet if it tried; it couldn't conquer a decently populated world with its troops if it tried. It however could smash planetary installations to shreds even deep under the crust and pound other huge armored warships into scrap in an armada. What's it closest to? A battleship.SirNitram wrote:At the core of the point you danced around by nitpicking things to death is this: Ships in the Imperial navy, especially big ones, aren't specialized. Even the Eclipse was hopelessly multirole: Hangar bays (As you noted, big enough for a Victory, though I still really fucking doubt you'd get one through the bay doors), heavy weapons, troop compliments.
I really wish people would not randomly use acronyms without knowing what they mean. I sincerely doubt anyone feels the Communications Ship stated to be jamming at Endor is an air controller.SirNitram wrote:I certainly don't recall any dedicated fleet brawlers built during the Emperor's Reign, though that doesn't necessarily mean much. Even the hangarless ship in ROTJ, though, has been referred to as the Communications Ship, IIRC, and thus implies a role as AWACS or EW over straight fighting.
Quite frankly you harp on hangars on ships where fighters are probably about 5% of what it does and something else 85-90% of what it does.
Its stupid.
Its quite obvious they engage in non-LOS-obstructing masses facing one another, as in the early phases of ROTJ. Its more like WWI than anything else, and the use of the gun as the primary means of shipwrecking means that the term "ship of the line" in terms of role if not precise semantics is still useful. What it does relative to its own fleet and the fleet of the enemy is still meaningful if the physical "line of battle" doesn't exist, Martin.SirNitram wrote:This obsession with 'Ships of the line' as the measuring stick is stupid when there's no line(Or square) of battle.
No, it simply cannot do certain things by virtue of its relative volume.SirNitram wrote:At the core of it, the ISD is built to apply a temporary solution to most any problem. As you so astutely recignized, as a multirole ship, it cannot apply solutions as well as more dedicated vessels.
In other words, its not really a CV, an amphib, or a BB....pretty much ever, in any way. It does stuff more like the gunboats Roosevelt sent to Panama than anything else in terms of what it was built for and what's observed. Strictly speaking, I really do think its closer to somewhere between a WW2 gun destroyer and a modern DDG and anything else.SirNitram wrote:However, it has been stated that it's enough to suppress a world(Most likely, this means it's troops, fighters, and main guns can keep the locals in line until more specialized ships bring in more fighters, more troops, and more permenant solutions, but this is conjecture based on the smaller, specialized craft like Acclamators, Escort Carriers, etc).