Official ISD starfighter complements

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Please cite the source for the size/power of the Procurators/Mandators/Praetors

Pathetic delay tactic. Do the terms "Star Battlecruiser" and "Star Dreadnaught" mean anything to you? Or if you insist on blinding yourself, there is a big, beautiful collage of other larger ships available on SWTC complete with estimated (mostly scaled) sizes.

1) "It is multirole - a whole quarter are troops!"

Sorry pal, I know a "quarter" and "ten thousand" sound a lot in Terran language. But you simply need to get your Galactic Perspective back. See the Acclamator's ratio - it is 16000:700. One can see precisely how "LST" is the ISD.

Second - if I stuffed 100 Marines onto a Spruance, along with troop carrying heloes, it still doesn't make it a hybrid, does it?

2) "I really didn't say that they are battleships."

I know that, SirNitram and Frigidmagi who seemed to suddenly jump on for no reason out there.

Perhaps you will notice in my framing of the problem (read, my first post on this thread), I made sure that SirNitram's position is written like this:

ISD = BB/CV/LST

I don't know how anyone can read that and compute I'm making my replies on the assumption SirNitram is saying ISD = BB!

What I did say was that he seems to be arguing that it is of the BB power class. That's not the same as saying he's arguing it is a BB per se. If anything, IP (and I) are closer to arguing ISDs are DDs and Eclipses are BBs.

And did he do that?

the existance of the Bismark did not demand the reclassification of the West Virginia. Just because much bigger fleet brawlers existed(Especially in later periods), does not remove the ISD's similarity to the original HMS Dreadnought.

Oh, now we know he meant the old, about 1908 RN HMS Dreadnought. He ... umm ... tries to assure me he's not saying the ISD belongs to the BB power class, or even that it belongs to the BBs themselves, by saying the ISD Is similar to the original BB Dreadnought?

He really needs to work on those reassurance skills!

3) Quote the ISB.

Thank you, pal. Thanks to a more or less redeemed ASVSer, we should all by now have our respective copies of the ISB, so there is no need to scratch up enormously old archives.

A piddling 65,384 troops, 4,532 repulsorlift 'craft', and 1272 tanks is an invasion force

I see that "often", they must be attacking weak, Outer Rim planets (the ones most inclined to Rebel initially). BTW, did you notice the sheer number of tanks? Even a Line Corps (a weak one) has 371 of them vs about 20 of them (AT-ATs) for a stormie division?

Think about how many troops are on our planet, right now and how many planes. Think about how many would be on even a third-rate (as opposed to tenth rate) planet. Think about the true prospects of a Corps with only 40 fighters in support.

Further, they are augmenting as fast as they can, as well as reintroducing the Army level.

Armies rarely see action in the field as a coordinated unit. Increased success by the Rebellion has led to a revival and redevelopment of doctrine concerning the use of an entire army in the field

So, as the Rebellion spreads onto larger, better defended worlds after Yavin encouraged them to help out, now they are escalating to using Armies on planets.

[SirNitram]

You pointed out they both perform/are intended to perform independent tasks, and your analog was shown false. So you just change your remark to "they're both in fleets"? Then its not a peculiar characteristic tying the two together.

No, Primus. The only one here changing their story halfway through the game is you. I have been trying to make some very, very simple points. That you are hung up minutae when I have clarified and dropped inaccurate analogies is simply a sign of your childishness.

Tell you what. You come back when you've passed puberty. Maybe after your balls drop, you'll be able to debate without stamping your feet so much.

[SirNitram]

Please cite the source for the size/power of the Procurators/Mandators/Praetors

Pathetic delay tactic. Do the terms "Star Battlecruiser" and "Star Dreadnaught" mean anything to you? Or if you insist on blinding yourself, there is a big, beautiful collage of other larger ships available on SWTC complete with estimated (mostly scaled) sizes.

Nice backpedalling. So demanding a source for comments is now a 'Delaying tactic'? I'll remember that the next time one of you lot demands one. I'm not 'Blinding' myself at all, just asking for confirmation or even any evidence that an Old Republic heavy warship is that big. Should I bring up their 'Dreadnought' as vivid sign?

1) "It is multirole - a whole quarter are troops!"

Sorry pal, I know a "quarter" and "ten thousand" sound a lot in Terran language. But you simply need to get your Galactic Perspective back. See the Acclamator's ratio - it is 16000:700. One can see precisely how "LST" is the ISD.

That'd be real useful if it wasn't for what I dug up.

Second - if I stuffed 100 Marines onto a Spruance, along with troop carrying heloes, it still doesn't make it a hybrid, does it?

If it was normally able to carry that many, most would argue it was.

2) "I really didn't say that they are battleships."

I know that, SirNitram and Frigidmagi who seemed to suddenly jump on for no reason out there.

Bullshitting obviously tends to draw attention here.

Perhaps you will notice in my framing of the problem (read, my first post on this thread), I made sure that SirNitram's position is written like this:

ISD = BB/CV/LST

I don't know how anyone can read that and compute I'm making my replies on the assumption SirNitram is saying ISD = BB!

Well, Kaz, it's a real pity you're a bad liar.

If someone that wasn't all heated up from dueling with you for a whole year (and furiously enough that several posts were exchanged in a few hours) still gets that impression from reading your posts, perhaps what you should be doing, rather than screaming strawman, is restate your position, without the drag of your previous posts.

What's that? THat's you stating you beleive I was saying they were battleships. Nice backpedalling, though. It's a pity you're too obvious about it.

What I did say was that he seems to be arguing that it is of the BB power class. That's not the same as saying he's arguing it is a BB per se. If anything, IP (and I) are closer to arguing ISDs are DDs and Eclipses are BBs.

And I still never said that, no matter what you claim...

And did he do that?

the existance of the Bismark did not demand the reclassification of the West Virginia. Just because much bigger fleet brawlers existed(Especially in later periods), does not remove the ISD's similarity to the original HMS Dreadnought.

Oh, now we know he meant the old, about 1908 RN HMS Dreadnought. He ... umm ... tries to assure me he's not saying the ISD belongs to the BB power class, or even that it belongs to the BBs themselves, by saying the ISD Is similar to the original BB Dreadnought?

Wow, how many times can I clarify myself on that before you idiots will get it through your heads? Are you purposefully trolling, or is this just some deficiency where you can't read English?

He really needs to work on those reassurance skills!

You really need to work on your reading ability.

3) Quote the ISB.

Thank you, pal. Thanks to a more or less redeemed ASVSer, we should all by now have our respective copies of the ISB, so there is no need to scratch up enormously old archives.

I don't got one, don't plan to download it.

A piddling 65,384 troops, 4,532 repulsorlift 'craft', and 1272 tanks is an invasion force

I see that "often", they must be attacking weak, Outer Rim planets (the ones most inclined to Rebel initially). BTW, did you notice the sheer number of tanks? Even a Line Corps (a weak one) has 371 of them vs about 20 of them (AT-ATs) for a stormie division?

Yea, I noticed the number of tanks. It's about the only way 65,000 guys can take worlds which, according to Primey, will be six billion or so before spaceflight.

Think about how many troops are on our planet, right now and how many planes. Think about how many would be on even a third-rate (as opposed to tenth rate) planet. Think about the true prospects of a Corps with only 40 fighters in support.

I'm looking at the actual canon, and attempting to reason through it. You may point out why it shouldn't work, but on the same note, Stormtroopers should need huge supply lines.

Further, they are augmenting as fast as they can, as well as reintroducing the Army level.

Yes, they are. Agreed on this tiny point.

Armies rarely see action in the field as a coordinated unit. Increased success by the Rebellion has led to a revival and redevelopment of doctrine concerning the use of an entire army in the field

So, as the Rebellion spreads onto larger, better defended worlds after Yavin encouraged them to help out, now they are escalating to using Armies on planets.

This doesn't remove the fact that an ISD currently carries a decent-sized chunk of what is currently considered an invasion force. Deal with it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You pointed out they both perform/are intended to perform independent tasks, and your analog was shown false. So you just change your remark to "they're both in fleets"? Then its not a peculiar characteristic tying the two together.

No, Primus. The only one here changing their story halfway through the game is you. I have been trying to make some very, very simple points. That you are hung up minutae when I have clarified and dropped inaccurate analogies is simply a sign of your childishness.

Tell you what. You come back when you've passed puberty. Maybe after your balls drop, you'll be able to debate without stamping your feet so much.

Ah, its such a piece of minutae blah blah blah but you had to backpeddle with this:

And almost all ISD's are attached to units: Sector Fleets, Vader's Death Squadron, Warlord private navies....

I just saw you repeat something which was stupid (and counterintuitive to your "I'm not comparing it to BBs!" claims) and wanted to see it dropped before I spent awhile doing the ol' line-by-line.

Nice whoring on the "quarter of the invasion force!" point, Martin. Especially when I spoon-fed you earlier that the ISD only has to capacity to MAYBE deploy 1000 of those troops at once, with no armor support, and only APCs and scouts. The ISD can't deploy even a 40th of what a common invasion force is. And the common ISD complement for an invasion force is six ISDs. Therefore its common reasoning that the ISD hardly serves in the "land the invasion force" role.

[Mr Bean]

SirNitram
Its respond, then ridicule, not the other way around

I is watching

[SirNitram]

You pointed out they both perform/are intended to perform independent tasks, and your analog was shown false. So you just change your remark to "they're both in fleets"? Then its not a peculiar characteristic tying the two together.

No, Primus. The only one here changing their story halfway through the game is you. I have been trying to make some very, very simple points. That you are hung up minutae when I have clarified and dropped inaccurate analogies is simply a sign of your childishness.

Tell you what. You come back when you've passed puberty. Maybe after your balls drop, you'll be able to debate without stamping your feet so much.

Ah, its such a piece of minutae blah blah blah but you had to backpeddle with this:

And almost all ISD's are attached to units: Sector Fleets, Vader's Death Squadron, Warlord private navies....

I just saw you repeat something which was stupid (and counterintuitive to your "I'm not comparing it to BBs!" claims) and wanted to see it dropped before I spent awhile doing the ol' line-by-line.

Are you illterate? Seriously, are you? While they are assigned to larger groups, they can also deploy independently. That was the entire point I was making. If you weren't so mindlessly addicted to minutae and searching for a fight, maybe you'd get this trivially simple idea..

Nice whoring on the "quarter of the invasion force!" point, Martin. Especially when I spoon-fed you earlier that the ISD only has to capacity to MAYBE deploy 1000 of those troops at once, with no armor support, and only APCs and scouts. The ISD can't deploy even a 40th of what a common invasion force is. And the common ISD complement for an invasion force is six ISDs. Therefore its common reasoning that the ISD hardly serves in the "land the invasion force" role.

Quarter of an invasion force? Not quite; closer to one-seventh. One quarter of the crew is Stormtroopers, which clearly shows that it's not the same as a dozen marines on a large naval vessel now.

And if you'd been reading my posts, you'd note I didn't say it ever landed invasion forces. That'd, to me, suggest an amphib, and no where in my posts do I say it's an amphib. You delusionally claim I have, but I haven't. They can perform virtually any kind of police action, including establish a temporary garrison, but no, I've never said they could invade a totally lost world. An Imperial world in the midst of uprising, though, they seem to do quite well against...(Shield of Lies).

[SirNitram]

SirNitram
Its respond, then ridicule, not the other way around

I is watching

Thank you for your patience and attention. Perhaps you can provide me with a debator whose actually reading my posts and not some phantom-posts that don't exist.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Are you illterate? Seriously, are you? While they are assigned to larger groups, they can also deploy independently. That was the entire point I was making. If you weren't so mindlessly addicted to minutae and searching for a fight, maybe you'd get this trivially simple idea.

Alright. And I'll tell you that that point was worthless filler and pointless because anything and everything greater than a convoy escort does that.

Quarter of an invasion force? Not quite; closer to one-seventh. One quarter of the crew is Stormtroopers, which clearly shows that it's not the same as a dozen marines on a large naval vessel now.

And if you'd been reading my posts, you'd note I didn't say it ever landed invasion forces. That'd, to me, suggest an amphib, and no where in my posts do I say it's an amphib. You delusionally claim I have, but I haven't. They can perform virtually any kind of police action, including establish a temporary garrison, but no, I've never said they could invade a totally lost world. An Imperial world in the midst of uprising, though, they seem to do quite well against...(Shield of Lies).

Then why compare the size figures? Do you think it means anything in terms of logistics, war making capacity, or expertise - shit almost anything - to compare two forces of radically different composition, size, and purpose?

Do you think it means jackshit to compare an MP brigade to a mechanized division? I'm not nitpicking. I'm trying to say that your points aren't saying a damn thing.

[SirNitram]

Are you illterate? Seriously, are you? While they are assigned to larger groups, they can also deploy independently. That was the entire point I was making. If you weren't so mindlessly addicted to minutae and searching for a fight, maybe you'd get this trivially simple idea.

Alright. And I'll tell you that that point was worthless filler and pointless because anything and everything greater than a convoy escort does that.

And it took you four pages to point that out why, Primus? I'll openly admit I'm no expert on naval concerns. Pointing that out when I first clarified the reference would have saved alot of time.

Quarter of an invasion force? Not quite; closer to one-seventh. One quarter of the crew is Stormtroopers, which clearly shows that it's not the same as a dozen marines on a large naval vessel now.

And if you'd been reading my posts, you'd note I didn't say it ever landed invasion forces. That'd, to me, suggest an amphib, and no where in my posts do I say it's an amphib. You delusionally claim I have, but I haven't. They can perform virtually any kind of police action, including establish a temporary garrison, but no, I've never said they could invade a totally lost world. An Imperial world in the midst of uprising, though, they seem to do quite well against...(Shield of Lies).

Then why compare the size figures? Do you think it means anything in terms of logistics, war making capacity, or expertise - shit almost anything - to compare two forces of radically different composition and use?

It's forces are an appreciable amount of the size of what the Imperial Army calls an invasion force. And to head off yet another accusal that I'm calling it an Amphib, I'm not. I'm saying it contains enough troops that, A) One out of every four people you meet on this thing will be a Stormtrooper. Not just Army, but Stormtrooper. That's more than the 'Some marines on a Destroyer with some ASW helos' line you're trying to make. B) It carries a signifigant chunk of an invasion force. C) It can set up an army base by itself.

Now, the point I've been trying to make with all this, plus the long duration resources it's stated to have(Measured in years, I think, for an ISD?), is that we may be looking at something designed for some purpose other than simply policing the Galaxy and defeating local threats. Of course, the theory I'm working up requires me to track down any info on Imperial manufacturing, and what you can cram into an ISD's or Executor's bays.

Do you think it means jackshit to compare an MP brigade to a mechanized division? I'm not nitpicking. I'm trying to say that you're points aren't saying a damn thing.

Not to you, obviously. I brought up the ISB quotes for a reason: The Imperial Army considers 65,000 guys an invasion force. It doesn't even say it would be for just pre-space worlds(The ones you claim should have six billion or so, and admittably your logic there is sound).

[Illuminatus Primus]

And it took you four pages to point that out why, Primus? I'll openly admit I'm no expert on naval concerns. Pointing that out when I first clarified the reference would have saved alot of time.

I assumed you had actual analogs to produce, and if you were commenting on naval concerns you might know your ass from your face on it.

Oh yeah, and:

HMS Dreadnought was not peculiarly able to deploy independently. Strictly speaking all cruiser-and-larger vessels at that times could deploy independently (this was part of their definition). As time went on, all destroyers could also deploy independently.

I did say that everything above a convoy escort did what you claimed.

It's forces are an appreciable amount of the size of what the Imperial Army calls an invasion force.

Which doesn't mean anything. Counting heads is not meaningful. Hell, the Clone Army in AOTC has been proportionally compared to Ranger drops in Qandahar. The ISD is carrying a squad of Marines then and a single Pave Hawk to send them off?

And to head off yet another accusal that I'm calling it an Amphib, I'm not. I'm saying it contains enough troops that, A) One out of every four people you meet on this thing will be a Stormtrooper. Not just Army, but Stormtrooper.

Which is worse; this means there is almost no vehicular support since there is almost no organic vehicles attached to the Imperial Marines. This is why the ISD Stormie force is probably mostly for boarding and ship security/prevent muntiny or defection tasks.

That's more than the 'Some marines on a Destroyer with some ASW helos' line you're trying to make. B) It carries a signifigant chunk of an invasion force.

No, its functionally less than 1.43% of a low-level invasion force in a state which controls all of the known territory. 90% of the Stormies are probably confined to the ISD; they have no more vehicles, they have no known independent logistics, etc.

C) It can set up an army base by itself.

A Stormie outpost - it has no Army troops.

Now, the point I've been trying to make with all this, plus the long duration resources it's stated to have(Measured in years, I think, for an ISD?), is that we may be looking at something designed for some purpose other than simply policing the Galaxy and defeating local threats. Of course, the theory I'm working up requires me to track down any info on Imperial manufacturing, and what you can cram into an ISD's or Executor's bays.

Uh huh, and this has what to do with insurmountable role analog problems?

Not to you, obviously. I brought up the ISB quotes for a reason: The Imperial Army considers 65,000 guys an invasion force.

Yeah, these guys have nice stuff like transports, organic armor support, tanks, artillery, medics, command vehicles, recon vehicles, MBTs, and air cover. And that formation is almost all Army. The ISD does not carry 1/7 of what the Empire considers sufficient for an invasion, because 7 Stormie groups are simply not equipped or prepared or supplied for it.

The ISD has APCs and scouts for less than 10% of its Marines, and none of them have an independent vehicular support or logistics. Thanks to you I can confirm they're basically all fighting grunts, and thus they have almost no support. Most of those guys are staying up top, pal.

It doesn't even say it would be for just pre-space worlds(The ones you claim should have six billion or so, and admittably your logic there is sound).

No, but you're comparing apples and macaques because you know precisely jack about the military.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'd like to add that the Saxton classification whoring is a losing argument because as usual Martin doesn't know what he's talking about (I frequently wonder if he ever does if isn't out of a WEG Sourcebook, and even then - such as the imaginary "they were going to replace all ISDs with SSDs in Sector Groups" schtick). First of all, battlecruisers and dreadnoughts by definition are going to outsize cruisers, and "Star Cruisers" (as well as "Star Dreadnoughts"; only "Star Battlecruisers" are not explicit) were explicitly stated to outmass "Star Destroyers" in Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy. Similarly, the upgraded power core in Echo Base (compared to the one at the Yavin base) used a Star Battlecruiser reactor instead of the Yavin Star Destroyer reactor. Another explicit size cue.

And we see a proto-Executor in the Prequel Era flying amongst dwarfed Acclamators or Venators in a recent SW comic.

The ISD was already subject to the kind of "ISD-to-Executor"-like comparisons Kaz gave before it was even first laid down.

[SirNitram]

And it took you four pages to point that out why, Primus? I'll openly admit I'm no expert on naval concerns. Pointing that out when I first clarified the reference would have saved alot of time.

I assumed you had actual analogs to produce, and if you were commenting on naval concerns you might know your ass from your face on it.

In other words, now you're gonna backpedal away from the fact you avoided actually dealing with the point I repeatedly stated for the reason I brought it up, and obsessed over minutae. Gotcha.

Oh yeah, and:

HMS Dreadnought was not peculiarly able to deploy independently. Strictly speaking all cruiser-and-larger vessels at that times could deploy independently (this was part of their definition). As time went on, all destroyers could also deploy independently.

I did say that everything above a convoy escort did what you claimed.

Yes, after lots of bullshitting, dancing around, and so forth, on page three you finally got to the goddamn point. I'm sure you think this is somehow worthy of praise.

It's forces are an appreciable amount of the size of what the Imperial Army calls an invasion force.

Which doesn't mean anything. Counting heads is not meaningful. Hell, the Clone Army in AOTC has been proportionally compared to Ranger drops in Qandahar. The ISD is carrying a squad of Marines then and a single Pave Hawk to send them off?

Counting heads and comparing them to what the Imperial Army considers sufficient for an invasion force.. With no qualifiers noted for it being a 'small' invasion force.. is, however, very relevant.

And to head off yet another accusal that I'm calling it an Amphib, I'm not. I'm saying it contains enough troops that, A) One out of every four people you meet on this thing will be a Stormtrooper. Not just Army, but Stormtrooper.

Which is worse; this means there is almost no vehicular support since there is almost no organic vehicles attached to the Imperial Marines. This is why the ISD Stormie force is probably mostly for boarding and ship security/prevent muntiny or defection tasks.

Which is why it brings a base along solely for deployment on a world. Oh! And a bunch of walkers it couldn't use in it's own corridors. Yea, sure.

That's more than the 'Some marines on a Destroyer with some ASW helos' line you're trying to make. B) It carries a signifigant chunk of an invasion force.

No, its functionally less than 1.43% of a low-level invasion force in a state which controls all of the known territory. 90% of the Stormies are probably confined to the ISD; they have no more vehicles, they have no known independent logistics, etc.

Uh, no. You're apparently incapable of math, as well as being illiterate.

Imperial Army Infantry for invasion:

65,384

Stormtroopers on ISD:

9,700

14% of the ground troops, not 1.4%. Check your calculator, you dropped an order of magnitude. You need 7 ISD's to fill the invasion force.. Not 70.

C) It can set up an army base by itself.

A Stormie outpost - it has no Army troops.

Actually, it's specifically a planetary garrison, with no indication it's just for Stormies.

Now, the point I've been trying to make with all this, plus the long duration resources it's stated to have(Measured in years, I think, for an ISD?), is that we may be looking at something designed for some purpose other than simply policing the Galaxy and defeating local threats. Of course, the theory I'm working up requires me to track down any info on Imperial manufacturing, and what you can cram into an ISD's or Executor's bays.

Uh huh, and this has what to do with insurmountable role analog problems?

Did you actually read any of that? Are you actually aware of what is being said, or are you imagining things into being again? It is not being compared to any known military role in this.

Not to you, obviously. I brought up the ISB quotes for a reason: The Imperial Army considers 65,000 guys an invasion force.

Yeah, these guys have nice stuff like transports, organic armor support, tanks, artillery, medics, command vehicles, recon vehicles, MBTs, and air cover. And that formation is almost all Army. The ISD does not carry 1/7 of what the Empire considers sufficient for an invasion, because 7 Stormie groups are simply not equipped or prepared or supplied for it.

Well, they're somehow supplied, as the quoted post said. No, they don't have the army support needed, no.. Which would be a problem if I ever suggested they could do an invasion alone. I am strictly ripping apart your idea that these guys are, numerically, far too small to attack a world.

The ISD has APCs and scouts for less than 10% of its Marines, and none of them have an independent vehicular support or logistics. Thanks to you I can confirm they're basically all fighting grunts, and thus they have almost no support. Most of those guys are staying up top, pal.

Nice job showing you haven't actually read the quotes. The Stormies are stated to not need supply personnel, for whatever strange reason.

It doesn't even say it would be for just pre-space worlds(The ones you claim should have six billion or so, and admittably your logic there is sound).

No, but you're comparing apples and macaques because you know precisely jack about the military.

Funny, coming from a guy whose shown he can't read English...

[SirNitram]

I'd like to add that the Saxton classification whoring is a losing argument because as usual Martin doesn't know what he's talking about (I frequently wonder if he ever does if isn't out of a WEG Sourcebook, and even then - such as the imaginary "they were going to replace all ISDs with SSDs in Sector Groups" schtick). First of all, battlecruisers and dreadnoughts by definition are going to outsize cruisers, and "Star Cruisers" (as well as "Star Dreadnoughts"; only "Star Battlecruisers" are not explicit) were explicitly stated to outmass "Star Destroyers" in Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy. Similarly, the upgraded power core in Echo Base (compared to the one at the Yavin base) used a Star Battlecruiser reactor instead of the Yavin Star Destroyer reactor. Another explicit size cue.

Are you quite done grandstanding, little boy, about the fact I dared ask Kaz to show some evidence for his claims instead of playing the name game? Oh yea, I forgot, evidence is anathema to you.

And we see a proto-Executor in the Prequel Era flying amongst dwarfed Acclamators or Venators in a recent SW comic.

See, Primey, when I ask for proof, all you need to do is cite something like that, with a name.(Let's all pause for a moment to savour the irony of this vague allusion, while he decries my own vague allusions. Oh wait, that's not irony, that's hypocrisy.) That would be sufficient.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nice backpedalling. So demanding a source for comments is now a 'Delaying tactic'? I'll remember that the next time one of you lot demands one. I'm not 'Blinding' myself at all, just asking for confirmation or even any evidence that an Old Republic heavy warship is that big. Should I bring up their 'Dreadnought' as vivid sign?

I'm terribly sorry I didn't even consider the possibility you don't know where the justification came from. I genuinely thought it was common knowledge by now, so it felt like you asking me for proof that a ISD is 1600m long.

Thanks, IP!

I'd also mention that for someone whose only supposed goal is to say a Star Destroyer is multirole, you are working quite hard to push the SD onto the BB-hybrid rank.

If it was normally able to carry that many, most would argue it was.

In terms of its adequacy for role, and comparing it to dedicated vessels, I'd say it wasn't.

As a sidepoint, if you look at a Perry's diagram, the helo flightdeck alone took up at least 1/6th of the vessel's length, all the more so if you include the hangar facility, probably winding up to about 1/4th. Despite this rather substantial investment of valuable deckspace, no one seriously believes the Perry is a frigate/helicopter carrier. It is a frigate, plain and simple.

Bullshitting obviously tends to draw attention here.

Since he obviously thinks you have the superior case, his action is something called vulturing. It is not only fruitless, but he missed.

What's that? THat's you stating you beleive I was saying they were battleships. Nice backpedalling, though. It's a pity you're too obvious about it.

That's me stating you were comparing them to battleships, as opposed to me saying you said they were battleships. Nice misread there.

I don't got one, don't plan to download it.

And why not? It is free!

I'm looking at the actual canon, and attempting to reason through it. You may point out why it shouldn't work, but on the same note, Stormtroopers should need huge supply lines.

Yes, and nobody denies the last part. All the ISB says is that how the stormtroopers get support is a well-kept secret, not that they don't get support.

Generally, everyone likes to think that they are "doing the best with the actual canon" while the other side is throwing out canon on a whim.

This doesn't remove the fact that an ISD currently carries a decent-sized chunk of what is currently considered an invasion force. Deal with it.

Well, 'cept for looking at IP's wonderful response, I'd just add that they are fortunate that only little planets are rebelling. If all the US ever needs to invade are villages, suddenly destroyers with Marines on them will look quite adequate for the task. To say the destroyers turned into LSTs for that reason is quite ridiculous, much less equate that to the ability to attack a major country.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In other words, now you're gonna backpedal away from the fact you avoided actually dealing with the point I repeatedly stated for the reason I brought it up, and obsessed over minutae. Gotcha.

This is laughable. You didn't know what you were fucking talking about and you chastising me for not articulating your ignorance to you quickly enough.

You're just embaressing. A momentary Wiki search would've done all the enlightenment you need and spared this board your imaginary babbling.

Counting heads and comparing them to what the Imperial Army considers sufficient for an invasion force.. With no qualifiers noted for it being a 'small' invasion force.. is, however, very relevant.

No, because an Army MP brigade would suck ass at the task of an Army armored brigade. The Stormies aboard the ISD are worth much less than the proportional comparison of heads.

Which is why it brings a base along solely for deployment on a world. Oh! And a bunch of walkers it couldn't use in it's own corridors. Yea, sure.

It has enough walkers for 800 Stormies, genius. And you still don't understand what logistics means. The Marines do not have any body working who's job it is to bring them food, weaponry, supplies, etc. They cannot be deployed independently of Army or Navy units. The ISD has almost no Army units. Therefore, they're probably attached to the SHIP.

Saying "PREFAB BASE DUH" doesn't magically create a nonexistant logistics line.

Uh, no. You're apparently incapable of math, as well as being illiterate.

Imperial Army Infantry for invasion:

65,384

Stormtroopers on ISD:

9,700

14% of the ground troops, not 1.4%. Check your calculator, you dropped an order of magnitude. You need 7 ISD's to fill the invasion force.. Not 70.

An invasion force needs to be landed, y'know, in an invasion, not slowly rotated out. An ISD has the barges for 800 Stormtroopers, plus maybe a few more Stormtrooper transports. Giving you 1000 is charitable really. The ISD does not have the capacity to land more than 10% of its troops by its explicit content and those troops lack their own logistical support, hatfucker.

So guess what that means: most of them are attached to the ship.

Actually, it's specifically a planetary garrison, with no indication it's just for Stormies.

Can you point out the Army regiments the ISD is carrying?

Did you actually read any of that? Are you actually aware of what is being said, or are you imagining things into being again? It is not being compared to any known military role in this.

Then who gives a shit. That's what the thread is about.

Well, they're somehow supplied, as the quoted post said.

I don't deny that; they're usually supporting Army units on the ground, and Army logistics probably expands to cover them (ISB at least suggests this covers some of their needs), and when they're on a ship, they probably thrive off Navy logistics. Unfortunately, the ISD has no real Army forces. So the Marines are mostly attached to the ISD by means of logistical reliance.

No, they don't have the army support needed, no.. Which would be a problem if I ever suggested they could do an invasion alone. I am strictly ripping apart your idea that these guys are, numerically, far too small to attack a world.

They are too numerically insignificant. You simply assumed I meant the problem was solely head counting. They're ill-equipped and ill-supplied and little armor. And they can't drop more than 10% at a time.

Nice job showing you haven't actually read the quotes. The Stormies are stated to not need supply personnel, for whatever strange reason.

No, its a Rebel Intel report. Stormies eat, Stormies damage their uniforms and armor, Stormies use up ammo. Simply because the Rebellion doesn't know how and/or its classified does not mean Stormies are autotrophic and have magic self-regenerating suits of armor and weaponry. And when they do mention at least a partial dependency (which is still vitally important - you have something doing 30% of your supply, you cut it off and you're suddenly getting 70% of the supplies needed to maintain battle readiness and to account for waste; the unit quickly is subject to virtual attrition) in syphoning off attached Navy and Army groups you can draw conclusions about their logistical dependence. Encorporating the canon; that good stuf. Purely speculatively I think this accounts actually for nearly all their logistics, though it doesn't really matter.

Funny, coming from a guy whose shown he can't read English...

You really do have the rhetorical talent and wit of fifteen year old. I mean that honestly. You've spent too long holed up in Fantasy beating up mentally retarded folk.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Are you quite done grandstanding, little boy, about the fact I dared ask Kaz to show some evidence for his claims instead of playing the name game? Oh yea, I forgot, evidence is anathema to you.

No, I'm just sick of things which were only noted in many threads for weeks that were up needing to be rehashed to someone with self-admitted memory problems. You think you might be a tad more humble with a shortcoming like that instead of being a pretentious twat, but then again, we're all surprised sometimes, aren't we?

I also really like how you go on these "you're being a jerk/obtuse/silly muffin" speeches. Like the Dreadnought spiel, you were wrong, Martin, and that's all anyone gives a fuck about.

What is this? Is this contesting the point? No. Its PURE personal vitriol that no one gives a shit for other than you. You must really enjoy the sight of your very own typed text

See, Primey, when I ask for proof, all you need to do is cite something like that, with a name.(Let's all pause for a moment to savour the irony of this vague allusion, while he decries my own vague allusions. Oh wait, that's not irony, that's hypocrisy.) That would be sufficient.

No, moron, I stated where it was found earlier in this same thread. You are, simply dumb.

The existance of the Bismark did not demand the reclassification of the West Virginia. Just because much bigger fleet brawlers existed(Especially in later periods), does not remove the ISD's similarity to the original Dreadnought.

Apples and oranges. The ISD is NOT unprecedentally large; it had larger ancestors, as did Executor. (Specifically, an Executor-esque vessel, although structurally distinct, is seen in a recent - and now canonical in status - STAR WARS Tales issue many many times larger than the Acclamators or Venators around it).

Maybe you could've seen that when I posted it and checked the one or two previews for SWT on the Dark Horse website? Not that it matters because the other point above it stands; this is that thing you call "nitpicking."

Is anyone else amused by the fact this entire post Martin sent my way had precisely zero debating content, and was just a "I don't like you" rant? Grow up, Marty. If you're wrong, just shut the fuck up and move on.

[SirNitram]

In other words, now you're gonna backpedal away from the fact you avoided actually dealing with the point I repeatedly stated for the reason I brought it up, and obsessed over minutae. Gotcha.

This is laughable. You didn't know what you were fucking talking about and you chastising me for not articulating your ignorance to you quickly enough.

I'm chastising you for refusing to address a point when it's put to you directly, simpleton.

You're just embaressing. A momentary Wiki search would've done all the enlightenment you need and spared this board your imaginary babbling.

I'm embarassing? Speak for yourself; you fail to get a point when it's clearly spelled out for you. Take a hint from Bean: Rebutt, then redicile. You didn't rebutt the point for over a page.

Counting heads and comparing them to what the Imperial Army considers sufficient for an invasion force.. With no qualifiers noted for it being a 'small' invasion force.. is, however, very relevant.

No, because an Army MP brigade would suck ass at the task of an Army armored brigade. The Stormies aboard the ISD are worth much less than the proportional comparison of heads.

And your evidence the Stormtroopers are nothing more than MP's, Primus? Can I expect any evidence out of you, ever?

Which is why it brings a base along solely for deployment on a world. Oh! And a bunch of walkers it couldn't use in it's own corridors. Yea, sure.

It has enough walkers for 800 Stormies, genius. And you still don't understand what logistics means. The Marines do not have any body working who's job it is to bring them food, weaponry, supplies, etc. They cannot be deployed independently of Army or Navy units. The ISD has almost no Army units. Therefore, they're probably attached to the SHIP.

You insipid little wanker, go read my posts. None of them say the ISD can deploy a solution to any problem indefinately. Go and read my posts. Come back afterwards. I specifically state it can put down a temporary planetary garrison. Temporary, because it doesn't have the logistics for more.

Saying "PREFAB BASE DUH" doesn't magically create a nonexistant logistics line.

What a good thing I never argued that, huh? Just another ghost in your head.

Uh, no. You're apparently incapable of math, as well as being illiterate.

Imperial Army Infantry for invasion:

65,384

Stormtroopers on ISD:

9,700

14% of the ground troops, not 1.4%. Check your calculator, you dropped an order of magnitude. You need 7 ISD's to fill the invasion force.. Not 70.

An invasion force needs to be landed, y'know, in an invasion, not slowly rotated out. An ISD has the barges for 800 Stormtroopers, plus maybe a few more Stormtrooper transports. Giving you 1000 is charitable really. The ISD does not have the capacity to land more than 10% of its troops by its explicit content and those troops lack their own logistical support, hatfucker.

Did you actually read the quoted section which talks about a lack of support, Primus? At all? Or are you just stamping your feet around?

For the umpteenth time:

The ISD cannot launch an invasion. I never said it can. The reference to the invasion strength has simply been to dispel this laughable notion that it's an insignifigant number of troops.

Maybe now you'll get it. You probably won't. But you might!

So guess what that means: most of them are attached to the ship.

Never said they weren't. Just pointed out they can be used for a large number of temporary solutions. Maybe if you'd stop making up what your delusional fairy friends think my arguments are, you'd notice this.

[qoute]

Actually, it's specifically a planetary garrison, with no indication it's just for Stormies.

Can you point out the Army regiments the ISD is carrying?

Did you actually read any of that? Are you actually aware of what is being said, or are you imagining things into being again? It is not being compared to any known military role in this.

Then who gives a shit. That's what the thread is about. [/quote]

Actually, this thread is about how many fighters it can hold. This tangent(Started by me) is about why it's got the fighters(And troops, and all) at all. Your continual attempts to pull it off are about your two inch cock.

Well, they're somehow supplied, as the quoted post said.

I don't deny that; they're usually supporting Army units on the ground, and Army logistics probably expands to cover them (ISB at least suggests this covers some of their needs), and when they're on a ship, they probably thrive off Navy logistics. Unfortunately, the ISD has no real Army forces. So the Marines are mostly attached to the ISD by means of logistical reliance.

It rather specifically says the siphoning off doesn't cover the minimums. Again, if you'd actually read crap instead of skimming and making the rest up, you'd be doing alot better. And you wouldn't need to grandstand.

No, they don't have the army support needed, no.. Which would be a problem if I ever suggested they could do an invasion alone. I am strictly ripping apart your idea that these guys are, numerically, far too small to attack a world.

They are too numerically insignificant. You simply assumed I meant the problem was solely head counting. They're ill-equipped and ill-supplied and little armor. And they can't drop more than 10% at a time.

'They are too!' based on what, precisely? Did you actually read how big a Sector Army should be by the ISB numbers? Not even two million! For a whole Sector. So yes, ten thousand troops is signifigant. They deploy slowly, but that's only an issue when you're doing an invasion.

Which, for the umpteenth time, ISD's don't do normally.

Nice job showing you haven't actually read the quotes. The Stormies are stated to not need supply personnel, for whatever strange reason.

No, its a Rebel Intel report. Stormies eat, Stormies damage their uniforms and armor, Stormies use up ammo. Simply because the Rebellion doesn't know how and/or its classified does not mean Stormies are autotrophic and have magic self-regenerating suits of armor and weaponry. And when they do mention at least a partial dependency (which is still vitally important - you have something doing 30% of your supply, you cut it off and you're suddenly getting 70% of the supplies needed to maintain battle readiness and to account for waste; the unit quickly is subject to virtual attrition) in syphoning off attached Navy and Army groups. Purely speculatively I think this accounts actually for nearly all their logistics, though it doesn't really matter.

At no point did I imply they didn't produce waste and use up resources, Primus, I'm simply looking at the actual evidence.. The evidence, you know that stuff..?

Funny, coming from a guy whose shown he can't read English...

You really do have the rhetorical talent and wit of fifteen year old. I mean that honestly. You've spent too long holed up in Fantasy beating up mentally retarded folk.

Yea. Those mentally retarded folk that, while they have your fear of evidence, actually debate what's been posted, do not make up shit out of their asses and reply to these delusions. You're very much like someone suffering schizophrenia.

I'm not even gonna bother with the 'Star Destroyer' 'Star Cruiser' 'Star Dreadnought' shit. The Executor is a Star Destroyer, but the Rebel Medical Frigate is a Star Cruiser. Both by the novelizations, highest next to the movies. So forgive me if I laugh at the idea that these are hard, fast, sure lines...

[PainRack]

If you are saying that, I'd say you've missed the real meat of the debate.

First, I'd note that at various times, SirNitram and Painrack both mentioned and used battleship or "battlecarrier" analogies. They may not be saying "It is a battleship" flat out, but they are definitely tending to it (and while I'm more on IP's side on this issue, I don't think the blood is wiping out all logical thought from my brain just yet).

The "real meat of the debate", evolves from IP needing to argue out a non-existent point that I didn't make. I can't say exactly what SirNitram is thinking, but I do know what my initial comments, and subsequent remarks were for.

They were to remark on the multirole nature of the ISD, PERIOD.

I continued only because IP is dense enough to state that the ISD does not have any characteristics of a battleship at all, REMARKABLE considering that this was what ILM intended for it to resemble. A Battleship/Carrier hybrid.

You can also see Painrack and SirNitram's portrayal - the Eclipse is a scaled up version of the ISD concept! Note how because they figure it is roughly multirole, all the 3 major components are of the same size, and herein lies Problem 1.

Really? Where did I say the Eclipse is a scaled up version? Maybe you can even go over the entirity of my posting histories on TFN, SB, SDN and any other forums you might find on where I have said this?

[SirNitram]

Are you quite done grandstanding, little boy, about the fact I dared ask Kaz to show some evidence for his claims instead of playing the name game? Oh yea, I forgot, evidence is anathema to you.

No, I'm just sick of things which were only noted in many threads for weeks that were up needing to be rehashed to someone with self-admitted memory problems. You think you might be a tad more humble with a shortcoming like that instead of being a pretentious twat, but then again, we're all surprised sometimes, aren't we?

Yea. Debating with you is full of suprises. How would I know you'd start declaring I was calling the ISD an Amphib out of the blue? Or start claiming that I said the ISD could launch an invasion when I've specifically said it couldn't. I could go on and on, but this thread really shows you're in no position to talk, kiddo.

I also really like how you go on these "you're being a jerk/obtuse/silly muffin" speeches. Like the Dreadnought spiel, you were wrong, Martin, and that's all anyone gives a fuck about.

Well, that's clearly all you're interested in. But I really don't give a damn what little obsessions you've collected.

What is this? Is this contesting the point? No. Its PURE personal vitriol that no one gives a shit for other than you. You must really enjoy the sight of your very own typed text

Hypocrisy, thy name is Primus. You regurgitating my own words and trying to make them stick to me is funny to watch, and a fitting end to this thread.

See, Primey, when I ask for proof, all you need to do is cite something like that, with a name.(Let's all pause for a moment to savour the irony of this vague allusion, while he decries my own vague allusions. Oh wait, that's not irony, that's hypocrisy.) That would be sufficient.

No, moron, I stated where it was found earlier in this same thread. You are, simply dumb.

No, you attacked me for asking Kaz for evidence. You grandstanded, in fact, because you think this is a useful debate strategy.

The existance of the Bismark did not demand the reclassification of the West Virginia. Just because much bigger fleet brawlers existed(Especially in later periods), does not remove the ISD's similarity to the original Dreadnought.

Apples and oranges. The ISD is NOT unprecedentally large; it had larger ancestors, as did Executor. (Specifically, an Executor-esque vessel, although structurally distinct, is seen in a recent - and now canonical in status - STAR WARS Tales issue many many times larger than the Acclamators or Venators around it).

Which issue of Star Wars Tales? Is it so fucking hard to get you to give evidence? Jesus H. Christ, Jamie Stamos was faster! The Hulk retard was more prompt! They at least showed the tiniest effort towards debate!

Is the ISD unprecedentably large? No. Never said it was, ignorant twat. But I don't play the name game with 'Star Cruiser' 'Star Destroyer' et al, probably because the highest level canon refers to a Medical Frigate as a Star Cruiser and an Executor as a Star Destroyer.(ESB novellization for the Frigate reference)

Maybe you could've seen that when I posted it and checked the one or two previews for SWT on the Dark Horse website? Not that it matters because the other point above it stands; this is that thing you call "nitpicking."

If you could name off what issue it was, I'd go see if I can get a copy in my physical hands. Unfortunately, getting that is, as always, like trying to get at a hen's teeth and a rooster's eggs.

Is anyone else amused by the fact this entire post Martin sent my way had precisely zero debating content, and was just a "I don't like you" rant? Grow up, Marty. If you're wrong, just shut the fuck up and move on.

Dismount the soapbox, kid. I've been trying to debate you. You keep replying with crap that has nothing to do with what I've posted, or is the exact opposite.

Oh, by the way. Adults refer to others by their first names when they know each other. You don't know me, child. Maybe when your balls drop, you'll join the rest of humanity in understanding the basic rules of social interaction. I doubt it. You show no sign of picking up any other rules.

[SirNitram]

The "real meat of the debate", evolves from IP needing to argue out a non-existent point that I didn't make. I can't say exactly what SirNitram is thinking, but I do know what my initial comments, and subsequent remarks were for.

Oh, it was entirely to try and get debate going on why the multirole capability is in the ISD, though I have a pet theory I keep trying to hammer into the arena despite the shitstorm.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I continued only because IP is dense enough to state that the ISD does not have any characteristics of a battleship at all, REMARKABLE considering that this was what ILM intended for it to resemble. A Battleship/Carrier hybrid.

Does Suspension of Disbelief mean anything to you? Is ILM in-universe? Is ILM an authority on naval matters, or are they employing a very superficial examination?

Are you going to bother to post quotes and the source its from for that claim or is it going to stand on your good name?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

They were to remark on the multirole nature of the ISD, PERIOD.

Good, that's roughly what I thought it was. The problem is that IP figures that on the SW scale, those extra multirole abilities are insignificant.

I continued only because IP is dense enough to state that the ISD does not have any characteristics of a battleship at all, REMARKABLE considering that this was what ILM intended for it to resemble. A Battleship/Carrier hybrid.

I'm not sure what ILM "intended" it to be. I do know that hybrid or not, it can only be one level - the destroyer level or the battleship level. If they intended to try and convince us it is a battleship-level thing, the last thing they should do is introduce a flagship 11 times longer and have one of their supposed battleships disabled in one shot by some black-market piece.

The problem is that the size class of the vessel bars it from being BB-level, and your other things (it can fight ships of similar size; it can shore bombard and so on) are by no means proof of its battleship quality, because destroyers can duel their opposite numbers and do shore bombardment as well. Therefore, there is no justification to say that it is a DD/BB/CV/LST. The BB term is redundant and even contradictory, and the DD term cannot be the redundant term given the sheer variety of much larger vessels.

Really? Where did I say the Eclipse is a scaled up version? Maybe you can even go over the entirity of my posting histories on TFN, SB, SDN and any other forums you might find on where I have said this?

Maybe it was SirNitram then - I was blending your positions, along with slight divergences, into one. What you did seem to say, however, is that the ISD is a battleship-hybrid (you just said that again just now, so don't squirm). If you say that the ISD is a battleship-hybrid, then literally you have no more classifications left, so when you run into the Eclipses and Executors, you have little choice but to say it is kind of a scaled up version of the SW battleship-hybrid concept.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm chastising you for refusing to address a point when it's put to you directly, simpleton.

Whatever, Martyboy. You were wrong and for pride, to see you own text, or out of fetish - whatever - you simply had to respond without any contest of the actual point.

Play nice, Marty. Just accept that I was right, shut up, and move on.

I'm embarassing? Speak for yourself; you fail to get a point when it's clearly spelled out for you. Take a hint from Bean: Rebutt, then redicile. You didn't rebutt the point for over a page.

First, he was talking to you, Master of Projection (hence your name in the post - eye problems too?).

You say I should've rebutted the point that the Dreadnought and the ISD both serve in groups and alone (I think most people automatically know that most ships can do this) first or second page. But you only stated the "they also travel in groups" half of the point until the bottom of page 3, and its my fault for not rebutting the entire point on page 2? Are you stupid?

You backpeddled, added, and altered your point, so yeah, it bared attacking on different grounds over your creatively dodging evolution of it for three pages.

And your evidence the Stormtroopers are nothing more than MP's, Primus? Can I expect any evidence out of you, ever?

Its an analogy for why "head counting" comparisons do not mean shit, genius.

Anyhow, Stormies in of themselves are not invasion troops since they have no independent logistics and no organic armor support. Therefore, they're not comparable to the invasion force which is an Army formation.

You insipid little wanker, go read my posts. None of them say the ISD can deploy a solution to any problem indefinately.

Garrisons would be rather indefinite. Assaults are not. First you say its not an amphib, it helps with garrisons (occupation forces are usually larger than simple assaults, by the way), and now you say it can't land troops indefinitely.

But like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. The problem is that logistical, cavalry, and organic armor support constraints with an ISD's Stormies prevent more than 10% of its troops from being deployed in an assault.

Go and read my posts. Come back afterwards. I specifically state it can put down a temporary planetary garrison. Temporary, because it doesn't have the logistics for more.

Well then it really can't do much shit much beyond a destroyer with a platoon or so of Marines landing in a village, can it?

So it can't land more than 10% of its troops for an assault with the compared invasion force. It has none of the armor and logistics the invasion force does. It can't perform a garrison instead of an assault very long either.

What a good thing I never argued that, huh? Just another ghost in your head.

I say it has no logistics so they're probably mostly attached to the ISD and you complain it has a garrison base. How does that refute my point?

Did you actually read the quoted section which talks about a lack of support, Primus? At all? Or are you just stamping your feet around?

For the umpteenth time:

The ISD cannot launch an invasion. I never said it can. The reference to the invasion strength has simply been to dispel this laughable notion that it's an insignifigant number of troops.

Head-counting means jack shit. So put down your pipe.

Never said they weren't. Just pointed out they can be used for a large number of temporary solutions. Maybe if you'd stop making up what your delusional fairy friends think my arguments are, you'd notice this.

And if 90% of the troops are probably attached, their boarding and ship security, more like Royal Marines on a RN sailing ship than anything significant and the deployable Stormies are only 1000 and more comparable to those Marines on our hypothetical destroyer.

I'm simply saying the fact it doesn't just shoot other ships is obvious; it has a hangar bay. So that point is mundane and pointless. And suggesting its more vastly multirole than can be compared to any RL ship is simply absurd because more of its secondary roles its pretty impotent at are comparatively insignificant.

We saw the role the ISD played against the planetary assault in TESB: a destroyer.

Actually, this thread is about how many fighters it can hold. This tangent(Started by me) is about why it's got the fighters(And troops, and all) at all. Your continual attempts to pull it off are about your two inch cock.

Its fucking obvious what they're for. Your points are mundane and stupid. And if the SW Nimitz can carry 10,000 fighters, than proportionally the ISD is a fucking DD with a couple choppers. That was always the point. The ISD's carrying capacity is so relative insignificant it hardly ever plays into its fleet role, which we see often in the films.

It rather specifically says the siphoning off doesn't cover the minimums. Again, if you'd actually read crap instead of skimming and making the rest up, you'd be doing alot better. And you wouldn't need to grandstand.

I just said "partial." You take that fraction away and it doesn't matter about your appeals to the phantom rest; it'll still be a unit not capable of making war. It's still dependent on those connections.

They are too!' based on what, precisely?

It has no fucking armor, stupid.

Did you actually read how big a Sector Army should be by the ISB numbers? Not even two million! For a whole Sector. So yes, ten thousand troops is signifigant. They deploy slowly, but that's only an issue when you're doing an invasion.

Yes, we're discussing the Imperial Marine complement of the ISD and you'll jerk yourself off to discussing the Imperial Army. Was the good for you?

Which, for the umpteenth time, ISD's don't do normally.

I never said they did. When 90% of your troops are confined to a ship due to logistical and transport dependence, then they're not really comparable to the armor-supported, logistically-supported invasion force. You strip have the things which make an army out of the troops and then compare it to an invasion army and jack to the troop counts, which are totally pointless.

Only an idiot like you would think its simple about head-counting. You know jackshit about the military.

At no point did I imply they didn't produce waste and use up resources, Primus, I'm simply looking at the actual evidence.. The evidence, you know that stuff..?

No rebuttal? Just Marty jacking? A pity.

Anyway, that syphoning fraction is important, and the unit will not work without its logistical requirements filled, and that's part of filling them. What else fills them is irrelevent since we don't know what it is. But I figured Appealing to Ignorance might be a fitting tactic for you.

Yea. Those mentally retarded folk that, while they have your fear of evidence, actually debate what's been posted, do not make up shit out of their asses and reply to these delusions. You're very much like someone suffering schizophrenia.

Keep jacking Marty, you're nearly there!

I'm not even gonna bother with the 'Star Destroyer' 'Star Cruiser' 'Star Dreadnought' shit. The Executor is a Star Destroyer, but the Rebel Medical Frigate is a Star Cruiser. Both by the novelizations, highest next to the movies. So forgive me if I laugh at the idea that these are hard, fast, sure lines...

DK nonfiction also lies in the same second-to-film tier. And its more recent than the novelisations, and thus takes precedence by Leland Chee's own remarks.

And the proto-Executor is still in the last SW Tales anyhow.

[SirNitram]

I'm chastising you for refusing to address a point when it's put to you directly, simpleton.

Whatever, Martyboy. You were wrong and for pride, to see you own text, or out of fetish - whatever - you simply had to respond without any contest of the actual point.

The hypocrisy here stinks to high Heaven. But sure, I'll cut out all the crap which is just you trying to stir up trouble.

Oh, wait. That's all the nitpicking you've been doing this whole time, all the distortions you've made up, and even this opening statement. Guess I'll have to slog through..

I'm embarassing? Speak for yourself; you fail to get a point when it's clearly spelled out for you. Take a hint from Bean: Rebutt, then redicile. You didn't rebutt the point for over a page.

First, he was talking to you, Master of Projection (hence your name in the post - eye problems too?).[/quote]

I'm quite aware he was talking to me, kid. That's why I said 'Take a hint' and not a more direct reference. English language problems? Like those you've had all thread?

You backpeddled, added, and altered your point, so yeah, it bared attacking on different grounds over your creatively dodging evolution of it for three pages.

Three pages? Can't you count? Second page to third page is one page. Given that the point of the Dreadnought being deployed alone wasn't even originally mine might have clued you in, but whatever.

And your evidence the Stormtroopers are nothing more than MP's, Primus? Can I expect any evidence out of you, ever?

Its an analogy for why "head counting" comparisons do not mean shit, genius.

Backpedal faster, Primey!

Anyhow, Stormies in of themselves are not invasion troops since they have no independent logistics and no organic armor support. Therefore, they're not comparable to the invasion force which is an Army formation.

Good thing I've never claimed they were. Let's drop this stupid strawman of yours, shall we?

You insipid little wanker, go read my posts. None of them say the ISD can deploy a solution to any problem indefinately.

Garrisons would be rather indefinite. Assaults are not. First you say its not an amphib, it helps with garrisons (occupation forces are usually larger than simple assaults, by the way), and now you say it can't land troops indefinitely.

I said temporary garrisons, imbecile. Again, learn to read.

But like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. The problem is that logistical, cavalry, and organic armor support constraints with an ISD's Stormies prevent more than 10% of its troops from being deployed in an assault.

Only 10% can be landed in one go. In an assault mission, this is important. In other forms of police action.. Not so much. Again, if you had read my posts, you'd know I haven't even really touched on the idea of hostile landings except as a measuring stick for how signifigant the number of troops are.

Go and read my posts. Come back afterwards. I specifically state it can put down a temporary planetary garrison. Temporary, because it doesn't have the logistics for more.

Well then it really can't do much shit much beyond a destroyer with a platoon or so of Marines landing in a village, can it?

If we redefine 'planet' to be 'village' in this scale comparison, yea, I guess so.

So it can't land more than 10% of its troops for an assault with the compared invasion force. It has none of the armor and logistics the invasion force does. It can't perform a garrison instead of an assault very long either.

None of which disagrees with my statements. Glad we're in agreement.

What a good thing I never argued that, huh? Just another ghost in your head.

I say it has no logistics so they're probably mostly attached to the ISD and you complain it has a garrison base. How does that refute my point?

Is it physically impossible for a base to gain it's own supply lines, Primus? You keep acting as though, if it does indeed become a garrison, it is forced to rely on the ISD indefinately. It is not. It has the full weight of the Imperial industry behind it.

That being said, that's not even an issue. I never said it could do it long term, though one could certainly come to that conclusion by looking at the canon.

Did you actually read the quoted section which talks about a lack of support, Primus? At all? Or are you just stamping your feet around?

For the umpteenth time:

The ISD cannot launch an invasion. I never said it can. The reference to the invasion strength has simply been to dispel this laughable notion that it's an insignifigant number of troops.

Head-counting means jack shit. So put down your pipe.

What a stunning lack of rebuttal.

Never said they weren't. Just pointed out they can be used for a large number of temporary solutions. Maybe if you'd stop making up what your delusional fairy friends think my arguments are, you'd notice this.

And if 90% of the troops are probably attached, their boarding and ship security, more like Royal Marines on a RN sailing ship than anything significant and the deployable Stormies are only 1000 and more comparable to those Marines on our hypothetical destroyer.

Or they're just expecting no worlds to be fully lost to be on an ISD's mission list.. Which would fit my thoughts on what an ISD's jobs are.. But here we go again, you talking about the need for swift deployment and long term logistics, when neither fits with what I've been saying.

I'm simply saying the fact it doesn't just shoot other ships is obvious; it has a hangar bay. So that point is mundane and pointless. And suggesting its more vastly multirole than can be compared to any RL ship is simply absurd because more of its secondary roles its pretty impotent at are comparatively insignificant.

So why bother at all? That's been the question I've been trying to have a discussion about. Why bother if it's totally impotent? Either you're wrong in your assumption it's meaningless... Not impossible, we see fighters cause lots of damage in the EU, so we know seventy two could do a great deal of havoc, just for that post... Or there's some great value in being able to half-ass alot of things.

Actually, this thread is about how many fighters it can hold. This tangent(Started by me) is about why it's got the fighters(And troops, and all) at all. Your continual attempts to pull it off are about your two inch cock.

Its fucking obvious what they're for. Your points are mundane and stupid. And if the SW Nimitz can carry 10,000 fighters, than proportionally the ISD is a fucking DD with a couple choppers. That was always the point. The ISD's carrying capacity is so relative insignificant it hardly ever plays into its fleet role, which we see often in the films.

Show me this Nimitz then, that would prove once and for all your point!

Wait, it don't exist. Try again next time.

It rather specifically says the siphoning off doesn't cover the minimums. Again, if you'd actually read crap instead of skimming and making the rest up, you'd be doing alot better. And you wouldn't need to grandstand.

I just said "partial." You take that fraction away and it doesn't matter about your appeals to the phantom rest; it'll still be a unit not capable of making war. It's still dependent on those connections.

And why can't it get supplies from the ISD if it's in a temporary garrison role until a more permenant solution arrives, exactly? You know, exactly the sort of mission I've previously said the ISD might do?

They are too!' based on what, precisely?

It has no fucking armor, stupid.

So the number of infantry is insignifigant because the amount of armour is insufficient for an invasion, a job it has no business trying.

Did you actually read how big a Sector Army should be by the ISB numbers? Not even two million! For a whole Sector. So yes, ten thousand troops is signifigant. They deploy slowly, but that's only an issue when you're doing an invasion.

Yes, we're discussing the Imperial Marine complement of the ISD and you'll jerk yourself off to discussing the Imperial Army. Was the good for you?

Unlike some grandstanding drama wannabes in this thread, I don't need to jerk off.

Your argument, then, is because they are marines, the fact they are still a decent-sized force by Army standards means nothing? Or did you not have an argument?

Which, for the umpteenth time, ISD's don't do normally.

I never said they did. When 90% of your troops are confined to a ship due to logistical and transport dependence, then they're not really comparable to the armor-supported, logistically-supported invasion force. You strip have the things which make an army out of the troops and then compare it to an invasion army and jack to the troop counts, which are totally pointless.

The way you harp on this, you'd think I had said the ISD could perform assault landings. Nope. Just looking at numbers of troops to try and determine how relevant having that many is. Any sensible person, seeing that they have more than a tenth of what the Army thinks is needed to take a planet would conclude they've got a good chunk of soldiers. But not you.

At no point did I imply they didn't produce waste and use up resources, Primus, I'm simply looking at the actual evidence.. The evidence, you know that stuff..?

No rebuttal? Just Marty jacking? A pity.

No, just a request for evidence. As above, unlike you, I don't need to wank off. And I certainly wouldn't do it in a thread like this; there's not a single chick involved, let alone sexually involved.

Anyway, that syphoning fraction is important, and the unit will not work without its logistical requirements filled, and that's part of filling them. What else fills them is irrelevent since we don't know what it is. But I figured Appealing to Ignorance might be a fitting tactic for you.

Just as strawmanning is your tactic of choice, kiddo. As long as the ISD is there, they can get support. Which will work fine for exactly what I said: temporary garrison duties.

Yea. Those mentally retarded folk that, while they have your fear of evidence, actually debate what's been posted, do not make up shit out of their asses and reply to these delusions. You're very much like someone suffering schizophrenia.

Keep jacking Marty, you're nearly there!

Put your pants back on, little one. I have no interest in your masturbation habits.

I'm not even gonna bother with the 'Star Destroyer' 'Star Cruiser' 'Star Dreadnought' shit. The Executor is a Star Destroyer, but the Rebel Medical Frigate is a Star Cruiser. Both by the novelizations, highest next to the movies. So forgive me if I laugh at the idea that these are hard, fast, sure lines...

DK nonfiction also lies in the same second-to-film tier. And its more recent than the novelisations, and thus takes precedence by Leland Chee's own remarks.

Yep. Which means we know that there's designations by that, but all this stuff at the same level shows a very inconsistant naming convention.. Which is why I asked for some evidence. Oh, would you like a second source doubling the idea of an Executor as a Star Destroyer, and the Medical Frigate as a Star Cruiser? Same level of canon too. The script for TESB.

And the proto-Executor is still in the last SW Tales anyhow.

The most recent one? Jeez! That only took three posts to get out of you...

[Coyote]

Kaz, Painrack and I are primarily concentrating on the multi-role capability of the ISD. I recognize fully that if I wanted to land a mass of troops in a full spearhead invasion a la Normandy 1944, I'd want a dedicated platform like the Acclamator.

THe thing to bear in mind about the BB comparison is that the BB's role and expectations have changed through the decades. It used to be the backbone of the fleet, but as it became evident that they were no longer useful for their intended purpose they were phased out.

There was a time when you could expect to see BBs in any fleet deployment or even be the centerpiece-- now, today, if you see one at all it is a unique ship being used for a specific purpose and then put back on the shelf.

So if we're talking about the 1914 desires for 'all-battleship/dreadnought' navies we'll see a lot of Battleships, they will be common.... if we're talking about modern fleet deployment, then a BB is more like the Eclipse: a dedicated siege platform, esentially a gigantic Monitor, and rare or even unique.

From sources I've seen, the ISD is the most common "Large Ship". Things like the Executor, Lusankya, Eclipse etc are rare. Maybe a few dozen max in a Galaxy of some, what, 25,000 Star Destroyers? Since we see few things like Carriers deployed, then what are all these ISDs escorting?

Again, I am not saying the ISD is a direct BB-- only that it has some BB characteristics (in this case-- "commonly large" instead of "uncommonly large"-- please forgive my use of these silly sounding adjectives); it carries out "ship-to-shore" bombardment; it is instrumental in controlling and dominating through heavy guns territory in space.

Once beyond those feats it cease to bear this superficial resemblance to a BB mission and goes into other realms: it somewhat resembles a Carrier in that it can deploy a lot of fighters; it has some resemblance to an Amphib in that it carries troops as part of a normal compliment including their base; it shares some resemblance to a DD because of its patrol, escort, and interdiction duties... see what I mean?

By saying that "any surface ship is therefore a battleship because it will engage other surface ships" is technically correct, but that means that a guy in a rowboat firing a pistol at the USS New Jersey is a Battleship, which is clearly not so. Destroyers engage other ships when they need to or when it is advantageous for them to do so, but they are not classed as BBs by Naval doctrine.

The ISD is its own beast, and survives in its multirole "jack of all trades/ master of none" existance because it is fighting an enemy that deploys similar ships, or has accepted the multirole ship as the standard and are trying to live up to the ISD example.

We see some of this changing in the EU, as the New Republic was trying to switch over to dedicated True Carriers with the Endurance class, where fighters were going to be accepted as the primary warfighters and teh "big ship" was to be phased out.