Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[FOG3]

I searched the archives and while something similar was suggested, I couldn’t find indication it was ever done.

So sometime around the time frame the Planet Killers show up, but before the YR get a chance to do something about it a Borg incursion happens in the B5 Galaxy using some trick similar to that that landed one in Species 8472’s territory. The Shadows and Vorlons independently track the ship back to its home base using some eccentric First One trick.

They see in the Borg elements of the worst of their philosophical opponents philosophy and an abomination which can prey on the YR they’re supposed to be guarding. They decide to go to full scale war mobilization on this opponent with the intention to stomp them out of existence, permanently. While the Shadows and Vorlons aren’t working together, they are holding off hostilities towards one and another, for the moment.

The question is not just if they can destroy the Borg, but who takes out the most the quickest, and who comes out in better condition after the experience. Shadow War is effectively on hold for this DM.

[StarshipTitanic]

Are there any weapon calcs on Thirdspace Alien weapons? They were more powerful than the Vorlons, but the Vorlons defeated them.

The Borg's shield might be a problem.

[Enigma]

I'd say that in the end the Borg would lose. Currently Borg has had a bad track record in assimilating biotech so Vorlon and Shadow ships cannot be tapped for info or be assimilated. Vorlons are energy beings so I don't think the Borg can do anything about that and I doubt the drones would live long enough to try and assimilate a Shadow creature. They might only succeed in assimilating their representatives.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Are there any weapon calcs on Thirdspace Alien weapons? They were more powerful than the Vorlons, but the Vorlons defeated them.

The Borg's shield might be a problem.

Their fighters could take out Whitestars with one or two shots and a dozen or two could badly damage if not destroy capital ships, IIRC, i may be wrong though since it's been a while. I dont know how much that helps.

But would the Borg shields be a problem? Phasers are always 'recalibrating'. I'm prety sure most B5 weapons were pure DET, and might just blast straight through weather they 'adapt' or not. And thats assuming they can adapt. Personally i dont think the Borg shields will do squat, of course they'll hold up for however long they can, but i dont think they can adapt.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally i think the Shadows have the power and the versitility to take on the Borg, with some help from the YR of course. They had Death Stroms with loads of missiles that were 'thousands of megatons' each, i recall. Plus they could enshroud whole fleets with thousands or tens of thousands of ships and stall hyperdrives. Assuming they can also stall warp drives, they would be my main weapon against the Borg if i were the Shadows.

[Zor]

What to the Shaddows have in the Line of Hand Weapons?

[Mutant Headcrab]

What to the Shaddows have in the Line of Hand Weapons?

I always thought it was "turn invisible, sneak up, and tear the enemy apart physically" or some sort of psychic attack. The only instance of Shadows themselves attacking was when they killed Kosh. Since we only got audio of what happened, I can only assume it was one or the other.

[Shadow WarChief]

What to the Shaddows have in the Line of Hand Weapons?

energy whips that they were confident could cut through a Vorlon encounter suit. Described in the 3rd book of the Technomage trilogy

[brianeyci]

The Borg do have a bad track record at assimilating biotech, but that was only Species 8472 biotech and they've assimilated other biotech before (they assimilated a species that gave them their "regenerative" abilities).

If we compare the size of Borg ships, the Borg have more advanced materials science.

Also consider a very conservative estimate of Borg shielding. Take DW's 25 megaton value for photorps. Now lets assume at Wolf 359 each of the 40 ships had enough time to fire a full spread before they were destroyed. Let's say 10 photorps. That's low gigaton level shielding. This is bending over backwards to find the lowest possible value for Borg shielding. A Galaxy has 250 torpedoes and a Galaxy isn't even one of Starfleet's torpedo ships.

Does anybody have a fleet estimate for Vorlon or Shadow ships? Borg is a low estimate of several hundreds of cubes.

Brian

[brianeyci]

As for the op, the Borg actually may not find the Vorlons or Shadows interesting. They took thousands of years and only control part of the Delta Quadrant. DW's fanfiction put it the best -- an analogy between the Borg and a person constantly polishing pearls, only adding to their collection what they think will add to their "perfection".

So, unless the Borg find the Vorlons or Shadows extremely interesting, they will probably not mount a large offensive and send a minimum number of ships.

And, the Vorlons and Shadows would not want to invade Borg space. They have their own agenda.

Brian

[Howedar]

The Borg would undoubtedly find the planet-killers interesting, if nothing else. Probably Shadow "cloaking" too.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Dont physical projectiles go straight through Borg shields? If so, Shadow Cloud missiles would plow straight through, probably go into the ship, and then detonate at least 2 gigatons most likely more.

Either way that cloud could enshroud thousands of ships, probably tens or hundreds of thousands of cubic miles of space, or an entire planet, with ease. IMO, it all comes down to how many Death Clouds they have.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Dont physical projectiles go straight through Borg shields? If so, Shadow Cloud missiles would plow straight through, probably go into the ship, and then detonate at least 2 gigatons most likely more.

Either way that cloud could enshroud thousands of ships, probably tens or hundreds of thousands of cubic miles of space, or an entire planet, with ease. IMO, it all comes down to how many Death Clouds they have.

Physical projectiles have not been shown to go through Borg shields- Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone just use torpedoes and rape the Borg mightily?

My assumption is that the Borg would probably lay some smackdown onto the Shadows/Vorlon. Star Trek, inconclusively but probably > B5, and in B5, it takes more than one Shadow ship to whup a whole Human/Minbari/Centauri/Narn fleet. Thus, the Borg are probably > to the Shadows.

Plus, they have tens of thousands of Cubes.

[Batman]

If we compare the size of Borg ships, the Borg have more advanced materials science.

A Borg cube is larger than a Vorlon planetkiller? I must have missed something. Not that that reasoning isn't flawed in the first place, mind you. According to that, the US have more advanced material science than anybody else on account of them having larger warships. And that's assuming ship size in a universe with SIF and AMRE actually says anything about material science.

Also consider a very conservative estimate of Borg shielding. Take DW's 25 megaton value for photorps. Now lets assume at Wolf 359 each of the 40 ships had enough time to fire a full spread before they were destroyed. Let's say 10 photorps. That's low gigaton level shielding. This is bending over backwards to find the lowest possible value for Borg shielding.

That estimate is NOT conservative, leave alone bending over backwards. 25 MT per torpedo is extremely generous on Mike's part (possibly a remainder of the 64 MT TM torpedo days) concidering that on-screen photorps are high-KT to at best single figure MT range, and them being omnidirectional explosives at best half their yield is actually imparted to the target. Therefore, assuming a more plausible 5 MT per torpedo (which is still generous), 50% energy delivered (which is impossible but nevermind) and your unsupported but nevertheless reasonable 400 torpedoes, we get- 1GT shielding, which happens to be in line with your low-GT statement. I happen to agree with that, I just wanted to show that IMHO you got there the wrong way, and that it was in no way conservative.

A Galaxy has 250 torpedoes and a Galaxy isn't even one of Starfleet's torpedo ships.

Where pray tell does canon say anything about Starfleet having
torpedo ships? AFAIK, as per BOBW the Galaxy was Starfleets big gun. They couldn't send ships they didn't have yet.

That being said, as even generous estimates of Shadow firepower put them in the double-digit MT range, unless they and the Vorlons have an absurd numerical advantage I have to assume the Borg take it, at least in naval engagements.

[brianeyci]

A Borg cube is larger than a Vorlon planetkiller? I must have missed something. Not that that reasoning isn't flawed in the first place, mind you. According to that, the US have more advanced material science than anybody else on account of them having larger warships. And that's assuming ship size in a universe with SIF and AMRE actually says anything about material science.

Vorlon Planetkillers are not the Vorlon's main combat vessel. The reasoning is not flawed. Check out the main site. The US doesn't have dramatically larger warships that have to withstand the stresses of faster-than-light acceleration. And SIF is a cop-out and so is AMRE, the Borg haven't been seen to rely on SIF like the Federation does so you can't assume they do.

That estimate is NOT conservative, leave alone bending over backwards. 25 MT per torpedo is extremely generous on Mike's part (possibly a remainder of the 64 MT TM torpedo days) concidering that on-screen photorps are high-KT to at best single figure MT range, and them being omnidirectional explosives at best half their yield is actually imparted to the target. Therefore, assuming a more plausible 5 MT per torpedo (which is still generous), 50% energy delivered (which is impossible but nevermind) and your unsupported but nevertheless reasonable 400 torpedoes, we get- 1GT shielding, which happens to be in line with your low-GT statement. I happen to agree with that, I just wanted to show that IMHO you got there the wrong way, and that it was in no way conservative.

Of course it is conservative, ten torpedoes is a fraction of what can be fired by a 40 ship fleet. I know the 25 megaton figure is generous on DW's part.

Where pray tell does canon say anything about Starfleet having torpedo ships? AFAIK, as per BOBW the Galaxy was Starfleets big gun. They couldn't send ships they didn't have yet.

In BOBW, most of the ships we see have been seen on screen to have fired torpedoes. Excelsior certainly has torpedoes, even the Connie we see has torpedoes. Ten torpedoes fired by each ship is a conservative estimate. Think of how fast the Excelsior in ST:VI fired torpedoes. Most Starfleet ships have torpedo launchers, I believe we've even seen "micro-torpedoes".

We've seen Akiras on screen in ST:FC. Granted, the technical manuals are not canon. However since we have seen the Akiras, and in the technical manual they are stated as having fifteen torpedo launchers and three hundred torpedoes, using the technical manual estimate is fine as long as nothing else contradicts it. If you really want to push it, then fine the technical manuals are not canon. But if I go into Voyager, and count the number of times they fired torpedoes, I could probably find a rather large number for an Intrepid class vessel at least 50 and probably in the hundreds (assuming they didn't manufacture torpedoes). Also the Sovereign has more torpedo launchers than the Ent-D, and you would expect the torpedo loadout to reflect this.

That being said, as even generous estimates of Shadow firepower put them in the double-digit MT range, unless they and the Vorlons have an absurd numerical advantage I have to assume the Borg take it, at least in naval engagements.

Yes, Borg win. Walper will be happy.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Whops didn't link properly, its supposed to be here, Wong's article on "size matters".

Brian

[Batman]

A Borg cube is larger than a Vorlon planetkiller? I must have missed something. Not that that reasoning isn't flawed in the first place, mind you. According to that, the US have more advanced material science than anybody else on account of them having larger warships. And that's assuming ship size in a universe with SIF and AMRE actually says anything about material science.

Vorlon Planetkillers are not the Vorlon's main combat vessel. The reasoning is not flawed.

Yes it is. Wether or not the VPK is their main combat vessel is irrelevant. They were able to build it, thus they have the material science to do so.

The US doesn't have dramatically larger warships that have to withstand the stresses of faster-than-light acceleration.

FTL accelleration is a non-Newtonian phenomenon and thus need not apply any stress on the ship. Feel free to show how non-Newtonian effects are in any way dependent on the size/mass of the ship, or how they indicate physical durability.

And SIF is a cop-out and so is AMRE, the Borg haven't been seen to rely on SIF like the Federation does so you can't assume they do.

Either FTL DOES put a serious strain on the ship's spaceframe, in which case Borg hulls, not being ridiculously more resilient than Fed ones, need AMRE/SIF to stay intact, or it DOESN'T, in which case there's no reason to assume Borg ships are ridiculously more resilient in the first place.

That estimate is NOT conservative, leave alone bending over backwards. 25 MT per torpedo is extremely generous on Mike's part (possibly a remainder of the 64 MT TM torpedo days) concidering that on-screen photorps are high-KT to at best single figure MT range, and them being omnidirectional explosives at best half their yield is actually imparted to the target. Therefore, assuming a more plausible 5 MT per torpedo (which is still generous), 50% energy delivered (which is impossible but nevermind) and your unsupported but nevertheless reasonable 400 torpedoes, we get- 1GT shielding, which happens to be in line with your low-GT statement. I happen to agree with that, I just wanted to show that IMHO you got there the wrong way, and that it was in no way conservative.

Of course it is conservative, ten torpedoes is a fraction of what can be fired by a 40 ship fleet.

That's assuming the fleet will be functional long enough for any of them to fire more than 10 torpedoes. As, at least to my knowledge, no other ship than a Galaxy has ever fired a 10-torpedo spread, and that fleet was a rag-tag ensemble of whatever they could get to Wolf 359 in time , 10 torpedoes per ship before they're killed is NOT conservative. It is by no means generous, but it IS reasonable.

Where pray tell does canon say anything about Starfleet having torpedo ships? AFAIK, as per BOBW the Galaxy was Starfleets big gun. They couldn't send ships they didn't have yet.

In BOBW, most of the ships we see have been seen on screen to have fired torpedoes. Excelsior certainly has torpedoes, even the Connie we see has torpedoes. Ten torpedoes fired by each ship is a conservative estimate.

You ARE aware that this says nothing about Starfleet's alleged torpedo ships, of course.

Think of how fast the Excelsior in ST:VI fired torpedoes.

I do. I ALSO remember how fast the Borg cube in 'Emissary' swatted Starfleet ships like flies.

Most Starfleet ships have torpedo launchers, I believe we've even seen "micro-torpedoes".

We have. DS9 runabouts if nothing else.

We've seen Akiras on screen in ST:FC. Granted, the technical manuals are not canon. However since we have seen the Akiras, and in the technical manual they are stated as having fifteen torpedo launchers and three hundred torpedoes, using the technical manual estimate is fine as long as nothing else contradicts it.

No it's not. Wether for good or ill, Trek TMs have no canonicity whatsoever. They're quite simply worthless in a debate. I agree some of them are sorta useful (I personally rather like the E-D deck plans) but the fact remains that unless they're backed up by the TV series they might as well not exist.

But if I go into Voyager, and count the number of times they fired torpedoes, I could probably find a rather large number for an Intrepid class vessel at least 50 and probably in the hundreds (assuming they didn't manufacture torpedoes).

So? Everybody knows Voyager fired more torpedoes than she could possibly have carried. She also lost approximately three times the shuttles she had. They were obviously manufacturing replacements underway. Your point being?
Not that the total amount of torpedoes carried has anything to do with the number you're capable of firing before your ship is destroyed...

Also the Sovereign has more torpedo launchers than the Ent-D, and you would expect the torpedo loadout to reflect this.

As no Sovereign was around for Wolf 359 that is relevant because of?

That being said, as even generous estimates of Shadow firepower put them in the double-digit MT range, unless they and the Vorlons have an absurd numerical advantage I have to assume the Borg take it, at least in naval engagements.

Yes, Borg win. Walper will be happy.

That TNG Trek can eat most if not all of the B5 powers isn't exactly a recent discvery, you know.

[Howedar]

Ship-to-ship I don't think the Vorlons and Shadows are going to fare very well, but SPK missiles are going to fuck cubes up like nobody's business.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'd say that in the end the Borg would lose. Currently Borg has had a bad track record in assimilating biotech so Vorlon and Shadow ships cannot be tapped for info or be assimilated. Vorlons are energy beings so I don't think the Borg can do anything about that and I doubt the drones would live long enough to try and assimilate a Shadow creature. They might only succeed in assimilating their representatives.

Not all biotech is created equal. IIRC Species 8472 had cells which attacked the Borg nanoprobes OR in some other way made them ineffective.

[Rye]

Shadow biotech may be tailored towards integration, what with how easily Earthforce integrated it with their ships, and the whole process of putting a telepath inside.

I can't remember any specific vorlon examples of firepower at the moment, but we do know their shields can deal with one blast of the shadow slizer beam without visible damage, the same beam that cuts shadow ships out of martian rock, and clean through miscellaneous large ships and bases, and iirc in the second babylon 4 story, babylon 5. I don't really see a problem with shadow slizers cleanly gutting borg ships to the core in short order.

[Enigma]

Shadow biotech may be tailored towards integration, what with how easily Earthforce integrated it with their ships, and the whole process of putting a telepath inside.

I can't remember any specific vorlon examples of firepower at the moment, but we do know their shields can deal with one blast of the shadow slizer beam without visible damage, the same beam that cuts shadow ships out of martian rock, and clean through miscellaneous large ships and bases, and iirc in the second babylon 4 story, babylon 5. I don't really see a problem with shadow slizers cleanly gutting borg ships to the core in short order.

If they can be integrated wouldn't the Borg then be able to assimilate it? A new and improved Borg Slicer Beam?

[Eleas]

Shadow biotech may be tailored towards integration, what with how easily Earthforce integrated it with their ships, and the whole process of putting a telepath inside.

I can't remember any specific vorlon examples of firepower at the moment, but we do know their shields can deal with one blast of the shadow slizer beam without visible damage, the same beam that cuts shadow ships out of martian rock, and clean through miscellaneous large ships and bases, and iirc in the second babylon 4 story, babylon 5. I don't really see a problem with shadow slizers cleanly gutting borg ships to the core in short order.

If they can be integrated wouldn't the Borg then be able to assimilate it? A new and improved Borg Slicer Beam?

I'd say the slicer beams on Shadow Ships would take up a pretty large amount of space; shadow warships seem to have only one projector.

[Howedar]

Yes, but Shadow vessels are not at all volumnous compared to Cubes. I'd hazard to guess that a Cube is a thousand times more volumnous than a crab o' doom.

[Howedar]

Er, not less than a thousand. I didn't mean to sound like it was anything other than an off-the-cuff statement.

[Rye]

If they can be integrated wouldn't the Borg then be able to assimilate it? A new and improved Borg Slicer Beam?

It's possible, there's the difficulty of capturing one for assimilation though, i mean, how are they supposed to do that? Crippling one in space i don't know if it would leave anything of use behind since it all just seems to bleed out and shrivel up, and we know the shadows didn't want their shit stolen so went to the extreme measures of blowing up their home planet. It's not like you can surround a ship that can phase to hyperspace at will. I suppose they could throw drones at one in the hope that one will land on it and inject nanobots in, but still, there was that thing about people being killed (presumably by the energy sink that shadow stuff seems to have) so the drones could very well die if they touch it.

As for integrating shadow slizer beams, I'd imagine that would be hella scary, but I don't know if their power generation/handling capabilities would be that well suited to it, given what we've seen from a cube's normal weapons.