Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[NecronLord]

The eye is at the same scale (with the relative camera position as much the same as I can get it) and is frequently described as thousands of light years across.

[Gunhead]

Ok, doc just said the storm destroyed a fleet, no biggie in SW EU universe.
What I don't buy is how the "average" combat psyker is more powerful than EU palpatine. In all the books I've read none of the named psykers could be called average, and those I've read about that have no names wouldn't be a match for EU Palpatine. Well granted I haven't read an awful lot of 40K novels or such, but I'd like an example of an average psyker in 40K.

-Gunhead

[NecronLord]

An average combat psyker is not the same as an average pskyer. Combat psykers trained by the Imperium are very strong and very hard. They have to be.

Lesser psykers end up as things like Astropaths, or members of the astronomicon.

And again, spoilers: Simply put, EU palpatine is so far from the canon that it's rediculous. The spoilers currently say Windu, Yoda and a few others actually defeat Palpatine, and that's Palpy's limit. Force storms are the product of the comics mindset that produces things like Marvel heros shattering planets. Palpatine can fight to the hilt, and be defeated, and Coruscant isn't levelled by the discharges.

More to the point, this isn't Palpatine. This is Vader. Where were all these teratons of energy that the EU has jedi calling upon when Luke kicked the crap out of him with a glorified sword?

Simply put, G-level canon pwns and shits all over EU jedi masturbation. They're hot, yes, but they're not all that hot. Enough clonetroopers will kill them. Palpatine cannot destroy a planet, else why would he not do so in the canon? Why bother with Death Stars if he can simply do so with the force? Hell, Death Stars can be blown up.

The Emperor can destroy a planet, the chaos-gods did it, presumably so can he.

If Palpy can trivially mash a battle fleet, why didn't he do it to the rebels at Endor?

[NecronLord]

Summarised : The G-Level canon shows force lightning, as palpy's main ability (thus far). The C-Level gives him powers leagues and leagues beyond this. Should we be required to butcher the G-Level canon to retrofit in C-level canon? I don't think so.

[Gunhead]

That's why I hate this psychic/force/whatnot wank, because their powers are never consistent, cannot be measured and more often than not would rule out need for a conventional military. Also mystic powers will allways have this "will power X work in a different universe?" thing around them.

When Horus attacked Emperor of man could have just gotten off his fat ass, make mince meat out of the demons and traitors then make Horus into his bitch. But no, I'll wait until there are billion+ casualties then I'll kick his ass.
Some god.

Oh well, I'll stick to conventional militaries.

-Gunhead

[NecronLord]

Horus was the avatar of the chaos gods. He could undo anything the Emperor could do.

Additionally, the text of the fight between Horus and the Emperor makes it clear that the Emperor was holding back until the end because of love for his (adoptive) son.

Additionally, the Emperor has become more powerful since the time of the Heresy thanks to constant sacrifices and praise.

"Will Power X work in another galaxy" - Always assumed to be yes. If no, then a Culture Rapid Offensive unit would die instantly upon approaching the Death Star, due to the differential physics involved in each universe, its primary power would shut down, the fields anchoring its hull together would collapse, and its mind would instantly fail as its function depends on hyperspace. Collapsed Anti-Matter would uncollapse (hee) exploding and destroying the ship...

[DocHorror]

But thats the thing, the Emperor of Man was STUNNED by Horus's rebellion. Horus was his most treasured son and could be classed as his best friend. The Emperor was racked with doubt as to why he didn't see this comming with his prescience and why he could no longer see into the future.

From his throne the Emperor watches his warriors mill around in confusion. This hall holds ten thousand men, seasoned veterans, and all now panicking. He knows they are more frightening by his silence than by the enemy. They look to him for leadership and he can give them none.

For the first time in his millennia-long life the Emperor knows despair. The magnitude of his defeat stuns him. The lunar bases have fallen. Most of the earth is under the Warmaster's heel. Rebel Titans, towering 30 feet high, surround the palace and are held at bay only by the desperate efforts of a few loyalists. It is only a matter of time before the palace's defences fail and the last bastions of resistance fall.

"Sire, what are your orders?" asks Rogal Dorn, massive dark-haired Primarch of the Imperial Fists. His golden armour has lost its lustre, is dented in a dozen places by bolter shells. The Emperor doesn't answer. He is lost within himself seeking answers to his own questions.

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

He felt bewildered. Even now, the Traitor Warmaster's forces were battering at the gate, he finds it difficult to believe that he has been betrayed.

Horus was more than a trusted comrade, more like a favoured son. Of all the Primarchs the Emperor relied on him most. Not for a second had the Emperor doubted him, not even when word had come from the Savage Worlds that the Warmaster was gathering forces. He had deluded himself that Horus must have good reason to do so without consulting him. I should have been warned by the failure of my precognition, he thinks.

WD 161

Horus is the greatest general the galaxy has ever known. Who should know better than his creator? He is schooled by a century of warfare. There will be no way out, no loopholes, no flaws in the plan. The Warmaster would have to be mad to leave one.

And again WD 161

[NecronLord]

But thats the thing, the Emperor of Man was STUNNED by Horus's rebellion. Horus was his most treasured son and could be classed as his best friend. The Emperor was racked with doubt as to why he didn't see this comming with his prescience and why he could no longer see into the future.

The Chaos gods were supposedly blocking his vision. This was their master plan remember? His vision returned after they were defeated.

[SHODAN]

Can I ask where the firepower estimate of the torpedoes comes from? Is it the quote from the end of the Space Hulk 1st edition rulebook? and if so, does anyone have a copy online anywhere?

Space Hulk Missions & Backround booklet, page 3:

Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the Gothic Class Battlecruisers Intolerance, Indestructability and Righteous Power. Each ship carried a payload of one hundred Hellfire class nuclear missiles. The payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead.

[Spiritbw]

Can I ask where the firepower estimate of the torpedoes comes from? Is it the quote from the end of the Space Hulk 1st edition rulebook? and if so, does anyone have a copy online anywhere?

Space Hulk Missions & Backround booklet, page 3:

Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the Gothic Class Battlecruisers Intolerance, Indestructability and Righteous Power. Each ship carried a payload of one hundred Hellfire class nuclear missiles. The payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead.

Hmm, interesting. Don't mean to sound like I'm nitpicking but a torpedo is always listed, both in fluff and in the BFG book, as being a plasma weapon, not a nuclear one. Also in Storm of Iron the give the calls of the one torpedo as being a Glaive class, not Hellfire.

Did they put a Imperial Date on the description? (eg: 942.m41)

[Spiritbw]

Oh addem, also the torpedos are described as just bienga single warhead. Designed to burrow through a ships armour, not break up into sub munitions. Thinking aoubt it the Hellfire sounds like it might be a missile used for exterminus bombardment or something similar.

[NecronLord]

You need to remember. 40K is incredibly diverse. The functions of almost everything vary across the Imperium.

[andrewgpaul]

Can I ask where the firepower estimate of the torpedoes comes from? Is it the quote from the end of the Space Hulk 1st edition rulebook? and if so, does anyone have a copy online anywhere?

Space Hulk Missions & Backround booklet, page 3:

Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the Gothic Class Battlecruisers Intolerance, Indestructability and Righteous Power. Each ship carried a payload of one hundred Hellfire class nuclear missiles. The payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead.

Thank you. The pireated Space Hulk Bible I downloaded missed the Missions book out.

Spiritbw, the names of things are markedly different across the Imperium, and, out-of-universe, in different times in GW's history. 1st edition Space Hulk came out about the same time as Rogue Trader, while BFG came out towards the tail end of 2nd ed 40K. I'll also say that in Spacefleet, the Gothic was a battleship, while it's now a Cruiser in BFG. A BFG battlecruiser has the same hull and speed/acceleration/maneuvrability as a cruiser, with a slightly increased weapons load (usually, additional dorsal lance turrets). Thus, a 610GT nuclear missile could be used by one ship, while another uses plasma torpedoes (usually launched in a 6-torpedo salvo, if game mechanics are anything to go by).

[Black Admiral]

Just to point out, the BFG rulebook (page 78) and Words of Blood: Raptor Down (page 38) both have IoM capital ships using cluster torpedoes as antiship weapons.

[Imperial Overlord]

Variant torpedo loads are canon. The Port Maw site has several chapter approved variant warheads for torps.

[Skelron]

If that fails well their is always the Forbidden Technology, that they really don't like using, I mean really don't like using, because of it's destructive power. This from a Universe where Exterminatus is a acceptable tactic nly commentated on if it happened to be your homeworld you decided to wipe out...

No. Stop.

This vague wankery is endemic to seemingly any vs. thread where 40K is involved. I don't want this shit, I want specified abilities. What the hell is Forbidden Technology? What can it do? What can't it do?

Take your hand off your penis and assume that some of us are not intimately aware with the 40K universe.

My mistake actually I am rather vague myself on what this stuff is, I can only go off an old discussion on IRC with Necronlord, where we where trying to guesstimate what stuff a Craftworld might have tucked away, and where roughly taking it as being on Par with the Forbidden Tech hidden on Earth. (Stuff seen being used against Yngir for example) So I have only the vaguest idea of what this may be. At worst I think possibly Planet destroying Ala DeathStar at best Star destroying. But really I'm going to have to bow to Necronlord on this and if he cannot recall the conversation or back me up I happily concede this point.

It's going to take at least a while for reinforcements to a) be contacted in the first place, and b) get there. Meanwhile, the Imperial fleet has set up a blockade and will be anticipating inbound hostiles.

What the Emporer's Tarot has not been warning the Imperium of man that Terra is about to be attacked? I suppose we can vaguely accept it, since the Star Wars Side has been claiming it has been hamstrung... It seems rather unfair but meh if both sides think they are being jipped then it's vaguely fair I suppose.

Meanwhile those 1000SD's are not 1000 SD's anymore the rather insane level of protection around Sol as given earlier will have taken there toll. Especially as the Empire's fleet has appeared in the middle of the network in range of a vast proportion of it all at once...

Who said they appeared in the middle of it? Who says the Empire won't decide to come in from maximum weapons range and bombard them from afar?

And who said we're limited to one thousand Star Destroyers?[/quote]

Several posts actually had the Star Destroyers Appearing in orbit of Terra, as an acceptable tactic this was mainly meant as a response to such plans. It would be as you rightly claim far more sensible for them to start on the outeredge and make their way in.

The posts claiming just appear above Sol and begin bombardment where what I meant to address here, I apologise for not making it clear.

[Skelron]

The 1000 SD's number was taken boith from what was thrown around by Gunhead and seemed to become accepted, and really, just how many vessels is the Star Wars empire going to throw into the Battle One Thousend SD's more than outnumbers the Fleet seen at Endor...

If you make it, every Last Soldier, Battle Droid, and Vessel in the Empire versus Holy Terra, then no question about it Star Wars wins.

If you are actually going to talk about a reasonable military operation then we can actually get somewhere. So we are going to need some sort of figures to be working with rather than the seeming point of the Tar Wars group that infinite troops and ships will be brought to bare. With Infinit Forces unless the infinite troops are Klingon's perhaps, your going to win.

[Spiritbw]

As said, didn't mean to sound as though I was nitpicking. Of late though it seems that GW is trying to get all it's fluff to follow basicly similar ideas. The idea of bolters being .75 cal being an example of this. It's had some problems with things that GW has tried to sweep under the rug at times(aka Squats).

While I can see the nuclear missiles bieng used similar to what the torpedoes of later stuff the way it sounds like it is intended to work, (spreading large numbers of submunitons over the hull), run counter to how the torpedoes are designed to work(burrowing through a ships armour to explode inside). There alot and varied numbers and types of weapons that are supposedly grouped into what in game terms are the weapons batteries. In this case it would still be anti-ship but it would fit more with the idea of how the batteries work, which is to throw out a vast barrage of fire into a set area of space. Could this be the idea that they are talking aobut when they refer to thiese anti-ship missiles and not the torpedoes?

[Imperial Overlord]

As I said previously, variant torpedo loads are canon. There is nothing inconsistent with having your standard anti ship torpedoe work one way and having a different model torpedo work another.

[Spiritbw]

Just to point out, the BFG rulebook (page 78) and Words of Blood: Raptor Down (page 38) both have IoM capital ships using cluster torpedoes as antiship weapons.

Are you lookinga t the rulebook that comes in the boxset for BFG? Or is there another version out there? I'm looking at mine and all I have is a quote and info on how to use the bearing compass on page seven. I'm assuming Words of Blood: Raptor Down is book which I'll have to see about getting. Was it a collection of short stories or was it a single book?

As I said previously, variant torpedo loads are canon. There is nothing inconsistent with having your standard anti ship torpedoe work one way and having a different model torpedo work another.

I can understand that idea, but every piece of fluff I have seen seems to have torpedo as a single warhead. I can see it being a multi warhead, but it just seems at cross purposes with the way they are supposed to work in many of the novelizations.

The Port Maw site has several chapter approved variant warheads for torps.

Port Maw is an independant site, not officially even recognized by GW as shown bythe disclaimer on thier front page. They cannot post anything officially written in Chapter Approved without violating Games-Workshop's licensing agreement. Most to all of what is printed on Port Maw was created by fans for fans.

The only thing which can be considered offical for rules is here: http://www.specialist-games.com/battlef ... efault.asp where the rules for battlefleet and many of the articles from thier fanatic magazine. Everything else is considered just 'for fun' or as 'experimental' that is put in. I rember one article that had a ship that replaced it's nova cannon with one designed for destroying demons and as such could stip chaos ships of thier marks. There is alot put out, but very little actually makes iit to becoming official.

[Imperial Overlord]

I am aware of Port Maws status and GWs official site. But the variant torp rules are by Andy Chambers and have the big Chapter Approved stamp, thank you very much.

[Spiritbw]

It might have a chapter approved stamp and be by Andy Chambers but that doesn't make it canon. Chapter Approved is more for a selection of Experimentation than actual things. Some ideas they do just for laughs, others because they are seriously considering including them in and want them tested out. Alot of the new assualt and vehicle rules that are now a hard part of the new fourth edition started out as trial rules that appeared in CA(though you probably know that).

There are torpedo bombers and mine layering options for cruiser that made an appearance in CA but they are not offical. you need opponent permission to use them and do not exist as far as the fluff is concered. Fluff wise bombers are to small to cart around the torps and using a cruiser to lay mines instead of carry fighters and bombers is a waste or resources.

Unless it is printed in one of the annuals or given the okay in one of the FAQs I'm afraid there is alot of cool stuff for 40k that just isn't canon. It's kinda sad because Andy put alot of neat stuff that made for interesting scenerios before he left the company.

[Imperial Overlord]

In any case, it is canon that the torps that Gothics are armed with in Genestealer are different from standard anti-ship torps but also used for antiship operations. In addition we have the existence of boarding and cyclonic torpedos that can be fired from standard launchers. Those are all canon and they all point to the existence of different warheads on torpedos.

[Spiritbw]

Oh, no argument on the boarding torps. They are part of the offical list for the Space Marine fleets(see the link I gave above). Still, boarding torps work in much the same way as the plasma torps. Burrow through the hull to deliever the payload inside the ship. In this case it just happens to be a squad of space marines instead of a high yield explosive.

Given that the Imperium tries as often as possible to use STC to make things(f-ing AM) it's possible the torps use a standard design with interchangeable payloads. Unfortunatly this wouldn't change the function of the torpedo which is to burrow into it target then release whatever payload inside the target.

It's been proven that you can get the AM to change it's view but it does so only grudgingly and after much time. It's possible while there are other types of torpedos out there, but in such small numbers as to make little to no difrence on the storyline/fluff/galaxy at large. They are probably alot more resistant to the Imperium at large who depends on thier forge worlds for just about all major war materials than the SM Chapters, which ahve thier own forges.

Still as I said, I think the idea of multi-warhead missiles are more likely for the weapons batteries, where the idea is to fill a set area of space with various forms of firepower, than to the torpedos, which seem punch through then do damage. The idea of multi-warhead torpedos seems more the exception than the rule to me.

I'm starting to think we're just defending our view because we hate to see our ideas crushed than any actual truth. While there is a vast variety of diffrences across the Imperium there are alot that is the same and very standard. A Lunar is a Lunar is a Lunar just as a Rhino is a Rhino is a Rhino. They all look the same, operate in exactly the same way and do exactly the same thing no matter where in the Imperium they were made, what with or by whom. All the Torpedos could operate the same way save one small sub-sector though for how long could be debatable depending on how strongly the AM feels about it.

If that was your point we could both be right and be arguing for nothing. Yes there might be small variants, maybe a local variant used only in one small sector. In the Imperium at large you might be more likely to wind up in a fight against the other type.

I tend to use the most recent stories and fluff for my examples because the Imperiums background and fluff are just aobut constantly in a state of flux as GW changes things about. This is because it tends to reflect GW's current thought on how thier world and universe currently stands.

PS: I don't rember the cyclonic torpedos. You'll have to remind me about how those work and/or where they are listed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Cyclonic torps are Exterminatus weapons. Rare, but carried by most Space Marine battle barges (they don't have to give up anything to perform Exterminatus).

Torpedoes can adjuct their path and home in on targets within a few thousand klicks of their flight path. Their performance is obviously regulated by some kind of programming. This leaves us with

1) The IoM makes their cap ship torpedoes all the same size for standardization reasons.

2) Same torps, different payloads and different programming.

And every Lunar class cruiser is not the same. Even without upgrades, ou can substitute those prow torps for a nova cannon.