Honorverse Marines vs. Stormtroopers

[The Dark]

The big thing with impeller missles is, they produce two massive grav fields. Regardless of the yeild of a kinetic impact, the wedge will slice up an AT-AT

True, I'm just pointing out that at range the kinetic energy will be able to get a kill even if grav wedges have some sort of "allergy" to AT-AT armor. Close in it would require the wedge, but a shot at over about 3 or 4 klicks would be a probable kinetic kill.

[consequences]

Okay, so can you tell me the approximate energy needed to accelerate a 5 kilogram missile at 2000 Gs

[The Dark]

Okay, so can you tell me the approximate energy needed to accelerate a 5 kilogram missile at 2000 Gs

F=ma

19,600 m/s * 5 kilograms= 98,000 newtons

[consequences]

So, if the AT-ATs ray shielding can put out that much energy continuously, then shouldn't the afore mentioned gravity-shielding interaction absorb the wedge itself, leaving only the kinetic energy to deal with?

[Stormbringer]

So, if the AT-ATs ray shielding can put out that much energy continuously, then shouldn't the afore mentioned gravity-shielding interaction absorb the wedge itself, leaving only the kinetic energy to deal with?

No, gravity get's through ray shielding. Just look at what the Vong did to shields. A wedge would probably do something similar. And AT-AT's have never been credited with shielding anywhere near as powerful.

[consequences]

The Vong's gravity drains ray shielding, and does so at varying speeds, dependent upon the number of Dovin Basals, and total shielding possesed by the target. And the AT-AT has absorbed repeated fixed emplacement weapons fire without effect, so it probably is pretty decent.

[The Dark]

The Vong's gravity drains ray shielding, and does so at varying speeds, dependent upon the number of Dovin Basals, and total shielding possesed by the target. And the AT-AT has absorbed repeated fixed emplacement weapons fire without effect, so it probably is pretty decent.

They survived hits from the DP9, which is an anti-infantry artillery unit, and the P-Tower, designed to take out light armor. Given that X-Wings annihiliated AT-ATs in Isard's Revenge, we can say that the energy from an X-Wing turbolasers is sufficient to destroy an AT-AT. Given that the long-flight missile (the 1 second flight) has as much energy as three shots from an ISD's light turbolaser (given low-end calculations as presented by Bean), and that there is no real evidence of particle shielding on the AT-AT, a kinetic kill still seems virtually assured to me.

[consequences]

Fair enough, and the AT-ATs height would make it a prime impeller missile target from miles around. The Empire would do much better in this case to utilise more conventional tanks. Walkers just draw to much fire.

[SylasGaunt]

As for the effectiveness of pulsers I remember a quote in one of the books saying that a person taking a hit to the hand from a pulser dart would be extremely lucky to just lose their arm.

[Dahak]

So, if the AT-ATs ray shielding can put out that much energy continuously, then shouldn't the afore mentioned gravity-shielding interaction absorb the wedge itself, leaving only the kinetic energy to deal with?

A wedge is quite huge in size compared to the object generating it.
Wedge
There you see the wedge of an 4km long Superdreadnought (the yellow planes). The wedge of a missile will be just as big, relative to its size, so your shields, if applicable on wedges at all, will have a hard time extending so far as to even reach the wedges.

[The Dark]

So, if the AT-ATs ray shielding can put out that much energy continuously, then shouldn't the afore mentioned gravity-shielding interaction absorb the wedge itself, leaving only the kinetic energy to deal with?

A wedge is quite huge in size compared to the object generating it.
Wedge
There you see the wedge of an 4km long Superdreadnought (the yellow planes). The wedge of a missile will be just as big, relative to its size, so your shields, if applicable on wedges at all, will have a hard time extending so far as to even reach the wedges.

True, a Superdreadnought is (according to the scaling in Ashes of Victory) 3.2km long. In the same book there is a line about "Men-of-war were big...with impeller wedges whose width was measured in the hundreds of kilometers." An impeller wedge is much larger than whatever generates it.

[Batman]

As for the effectiveness of pulsers I remember a quote
in one of the books saying that a person taking a hit to the hand from a
pulser dart would be extremely lucky to just lose their arm.

I remember, the quote, too.
But how, exactly, is it going to do this? I can certainly see a salvo of pulser darts (has anybody ever fired one in semi-auto?) wrecking a limb beyond
repair or even tear it off, but how can a hit to the hand (which you can loose
in its entirety without further damage provided bloodloss is curbed) be that
lethal? Either pulsers use a really strange damage mechanism
(phaser chain reaction, anyone ?), or that quote was hyperbole
(and something along those lines has been said about the G11
and other high performance rifles,too).
Furthermore, what is their (pulser darts') performance against armor in-universe?

[Batman]

...and my apologies for the wacky formatting.
I'm still trying to get the hang of this.
I guess that's why it says 'Newbie' under my name...

[Stormbringer]

As for the effectiveness of pulsers I remember a quote
in one of the books saying that a person taking a hit to the hand from a
pulser dart would be extremely lucky to just lose their arm.

I remember, the quote, too.
But how, exactly, is it going to do this? I can certainly see a salvo of pulser darts (has anybody ever fired one in semi-auto?) wrecking a limb beyond
repair or even tear it off, but how can a hit to the hand (which you can loose
in its entirety without further damage provided bloodloss is curbed) be that
lethal? Either pulsers use a really strange damage mechanism
(phaser chain reaction, anyone ?), or that quote was hyperbole
(and something along those lines has been said about the G11
and other high performance rifles,too).
Furthermore, what is their (pulser darts') performance against armor in-universe?

Because Anti Personel pulser darts are designed to fragment, sending shrapnel all over. That's only for darts that have no anti armor capability.

[Batman]

Because Anti Personel pulser darts are designed to fragment, sending shrapnel all over. That's only for darts that have no anti armor capability.

I don't think I quite understand you.
Are you saying that's why APERS darts are quite deadly and can shred/
tear off limbs (to which I would agree), that's why a hit to the hand can kill
(which I don't see unless we asume a dinky 4mm or less dart producing
so much shrapnel that its guaranteed to hit something vital), or that
that's why usually APERS darts aren't claimed to pierce armor (which is
of course a given)?
Sorry if I'm being dense.

On the AP issue, in The Honor Of The Queen tribarrel APHE darts are
stated to be able to penetrate armored bulkheads with ease (somewhere
in the Blackbird battle, I'll dig up the quote if neccessary), so there are
indications for anti-armor capability.

[Stormbringer]

Because Anti Personel pulser darts are designed to fragment, sending shrapnel all over. That's only for darts that have no anti armor capability.

I don't think I quite understand you.
Are you saying that's why APERS darts are quite deadly and can shred/
tear off limbs (to which I would agree), that's why a hit to the hand can kill
(which I don't see unless we asume a dinky 4mm or less dart producing
so much shrapnel that its guaranteed to hit something vital), or that
that's why usually APERS darts aren't claimed to pierce armor (which is
of course a given)?
Sorry if I'm being dense.

Actually, that's why they're so deadly. They tend to splinter a fair amount sending lots of nasty little sliver through you.

On the AP issue, in The Honor Of The Queen tribarrel APHE darts are
stated to be able to penetrate armored bulkheads with ease (somewhere
in the Blackbird battle, I'll dig up the quote if neccessary), so there are
indications for anti-armor capability.

Two things you have to remember with that: Blackbird was built with armor inferior to honorverse standard and a tribarrel is analogous to a heavy machine gun. Of course a heavier round will smash through inferior materials.

[consequences]

The Pulser dart would seem to use a mechanism that transfers the vast majority of its kinetic energy to the target with little blowthrough to achieve the barely survivable hand hit. How this is possible? You got me.

[Stormbringer]

The Pulser dart would seem to use a mechanism that transfers the vast majority of its kinetic energy to the target with little blowthrough to achieve the barely survivable hand hit. How this is possible? You got me.

Something like a hollow point does. It's designed to be sturcurally weak, once it hits the body it shatters. That's why AP darts are so easy to stop but armor peircing rounds are so tough to stop.

And for pulse rifles and larger there are explosive darts as well.

[The Dark]

The Pulser dart would seem to use a mechanism that transfers the vast majority of its kinetic energy to the target with little blowthrough to achieve the barely survivable hand hit. How this is possible? You got me.

Something like a hollow point does. It's designed to be sturcurally weak, once it hits the body it shatters. That's why AP darts are so easy to stop but armor peircing rounds are so tough to stop.

And for pulse rifles and larger there are explosive darts as well.

Could be similar to a glaser round also, filled with shot and fractures when it hits an uneven surface, releasing the shot in a concentrated area. I've heard that while normal bullets have a 13% casualty rate, glaser rounds have over a 90% casualty rate on unarmored targets.

Could also be a Geco, designed to be imbalanced and tumble upon impact, causing more damage from fluid shock transfer. Or Equalloy, a British round with a muzzle velocity over 625m/s and a stopping distance of 3.5 inches of ordnance gelatin (a human flesh substitute). Or THV, where the nose of the round is concave rather than convex. Again, high fluid shock, but also high armor penetration, low ricochet potential, and low recoil.

There's quite a few nasty AP rounds in existence or development.

[Batman]

I have no trouble with explosive bolts, AP rounds, or fragmenting bolts
that do nasty damage to tissue, all of those are concepts that are already
in use in the real world.
What bugs me is that lethal hand hit. How can damage to an extremity
the loss of which in its entirety need not kill you be lethal?

Even if the pulser dart manages to somehow dump all of its energy
into my poor forepaw, how does that achieve anything beyond ripping said paw of?

High tissue damage due to fragments (from either fragmenting or explosive bolts), deforming /
"tumbling" projectiles or plain old JHP I can buy.Hell, we can do it already.

But damaging tissue you aren't even hitting?
Apart from a phaserish chain reaction or an absurdly fast acting toxin,
I can't think of something that would achieve this effect.

Doomgiver -I brought up the tribarrel AP rounds because I dimly recall
doubting the existence of armor-piercing pulser munitions in the first place.
I just wanted that corrected. You are, of course, correct-their performance against even
Honorverse modern armor is unknown (at leat from the Blackbird example),and tribarrels are
HMGs (like the GECAL-50s I mentioned), not (DECIDEDLY not) sidearms.

On a sidenote-people seem to use AP to signify anti-personell.
I use AP for armor piercing and APERS for anti-personell-just to avoid confusion.

Erm-this seems to develop into a thread hijack. Not a good way to start
my forum presence. Sorry people

[The Dark]

I have no trouble with explosive bolts, AP rounds, or fragmenting bolts
that do nasty damage to tissue, all of those are concepts that are already
in use in the real world.
What bugs me is that lethal hand hit. How can damage to an extremity
the loss of which in its entirety need not kill you be lethal?

If it has a high enough velocity, it's possible (though extremely unlikely) that it could cauterize the wounds it causes, thus limiting blood loss.

But damaging tissue you aren't even hitting?
Apart from a phaserish chain reaction or an absurdly fast acting toxin,
I can't think of something that would achieve this effect.

True, there's really not enough ground combat described to explain pulsers well. They do use some sort of power source, and that's about the only fact about them we haven't covered.

Doomgiver -I brought up the tribarrel AP rounds because I dimly recall
doubting the existence of armor-piercing pulser munitions in the first place.
I just wanted that corrected. You are, of course, correct-their performance against even
Honorverse modern armor is unknown (at leat from the Blackbird example),and tribarrels are
HMGs (like the GECAL-50s I mentioned), not (DECIDEDLY not) sidearms.

IIRC, Carson Clinkscales is capable of carrying one, though he's also a rather large person (particularly for a Grayson).

Erm-this seems to develop into a thread hijack. Not a good way to start
my forum presence. Sorry people

No problem, as long as it's relevant to the thread. Determining pulser characteristics is definitely relevant. Hijack away.

[consequences]

Pulsers don't seem to perform as well against heavy armor as Plasma weapons in the Honorverse if I am remembering correctly.

[Stormbringer]

Pulsers don't seem to perform as well against heavy armor as Plasma weapons in the Honorverse if I am remembering correctly.

Of course, pulsers generally refer to the side arm pistol variety. Pulse Rifle and Tribarrels are assualt rifles and machine guns respectively. Plasma weapons are the equivalent of a grenade launcher or anti tank rocket.

[Ender]

Given that AT-ATs were disabled by falling (at 1 Hoth gravity, which cannot be significantly higher than 1g for physiological reasons), it would not be unreasonable to think that a missile striking at 2,000g would cause severe damage to an AT-AT if not outright destroying it.

They weren't disabled by the 1 g fall, they were disabled because they fell, period. .001 G or 10000 Gs, falling over disables the walker. The gravity had nothing to do with it.

Personally, I don't understand how they can use a grav wedge in an atmosphere, as it would seriously screw with the planet. Same deal goes for Vong Singularities.

[Ender]

I remember, the quote, too.
But how, exactly, is it going to do this? I can certainly see a salvo of pulser darts (has anybody ever fired one in semi-auto?) wrecking a limb beyond
repair or even tear it off, but how can a hit to the hand (which you can loose
in its entirety without further damage provided bloodloss is curbed) be that
lethal? Either pulsers use a really strange damage mechanism
(phaser chain reaction, anyone ?), or that quote was hyperbole
(and something along those lines has been said about the G11
and other high performance rifles,too).
Furthermore, what is their (pulser darts') performance against armor in-universe?

It doesn't have to be hyperbole at all. Back when I was at boot camp we were told that a 50 cal round can kill a person without even having to hit them dead on. A light graze would tear the arm off, and the bleeding would do it for you.