"Cheerleaders Do It", Claims Defense

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-01-10 06:06pm

Forcing naked Iraqi prisoners to pile themselves in human pyramids was not torture, because American cheerleaders do it every year, a court was told today.

A lawyer defending Specialist Charles Graner, who is accused of being a ringleader in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, argued that piling naked prisoners in pyramids was a valid form of prisoner control.

"Don’t cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year. Is that torture?" said Guy Womack, Sergeant Graner’s lawyer, in opening arguments to the ten-member military jury at the reservist’s court martial.

Sergeant Graner and Private Lynndie England, with whom he fathered a child and who is also facing a court-martial, became the faces of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal after they appeared in photographs that showed degraded, naked prisoners.

The prosecution showed some of those pictures in their opening argument, including one of naked Iraqi men piled on each other and another of Ms England holding a crawling naked Iraqi man on a leash.

Mr Womack said that using a tether was a valid method of controlling detainees. "You’re keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections," he said.

Pictures of the humiliating treatment of the prisoners at the prison outside Baghdad prompted outrage around the world, and further eroded the credibility of the United States, already damaged in many countries by the 2003 Iraq invasion.

Apart from arguing that the methods were not illegal, Graner’s defence is that he was following orders from superiors. Mr Womack said: "He was doing his job. Following orders and being praised for it."

The chief prosecutor, Major Michael Holley, asked rhetorically,"Did the accused honestly believe that was a lawful order?"

The Bush Administration has said that the actions were those of a small group and were not part of a policy or condoned by senior officers.

But investigations have shown that many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the Government considered ways to obtain information in the war against terrorism.

The trial of Sergeant Graner, a 36-year-old former Pennsylvania civilian prison guard who chatted and joked with his defence team before the hearing opened, was expected to last at least a week.

He faces up to 17 years in prison on charges that include mistreating detainees, dereliction of duty and assault. He has pleaded not guilty.

Four of seven accused members of Sergeant Graner’s unit have already pleaded guilty to abuse charges and three have been sentenced to prison.

Meanwhile the first court martial of a British soldier accused of mistreating Iraqi prisoners was getting under way today at a military base in western Germany.

Fusilier Gary Bartlam, 20, who serves with the 1st Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, is accused of the ill-treatment of Iraqis detained by British forces in May, 2003.

Evidence about the alleged assaults and indecent assaults of the Iraqis were heard at a court martial taking place at a British Army base in Hohne, Germany.

Judge Advocate Michael Hunter banned any further reporting of the details of the hearing for legal reasons.

Source

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-10 06:09pm

That's so pathetically silly that I was certain it was fake until I clicked the link. Wow. Just...wow. I'm speechless.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-10 06:11pm

Can I have directions to Mr. Womack's high school ... if they're doing naked cheerleader pyramids, I've been missing out.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2005-01-10 06:13pm

I realize now why people say that lawyers are worse than Satan. I mean... Jesus Christ.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-01-10 06:14pm

Chmee wrote:Can I have directions to Mr. Womack's high school ... if they're doing naked cheerleader pyramids, I've been missing out.

Don't forget that they have to be FORCED to do it.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2005-01-10 06:15pm

are you fucking kidding me? Lawyers are fucking scum. (sorry Stravo)

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-10 06:16pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:I realize now why people say that lawyers are worse than Satan. I mean... Jesus Christ.

Dumb fuck should've copped a plea. Now his lawyer is forced to concoct something to try to mitigate his offense.

There is no legitimate defense for what was done here, so he's just brazening it out.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-01-10 06:16pm

I dunno.

How would you attempt to defend these guys? I mean, it's not like they can attempt the Space Moose defense.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-01-10 06:26pm

[quote="Uraniun235"]I dunno.

How would you attempt to defend these guys?[quote]

If it was really true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers. Even if it wasn't true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers

. Better than saying the pyramid was the same as cheerleader practise naked.

Brian

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-10 06:32pm

*Shrugs* What else is the guy going to do? I sincerely doubt he could afford a good attorney and if its court appointed - woooo - I've heard FAR WORSE than this when interning in the NYC Criminal Court from Public Defenders. In defense of the attorney it really is his fucking job to do what he can, anything to help his client. And if that includes a horrible analogy then so be it, but frankly in my opinion that analogy hurt his client more than helped.

And just as an aside, Lawyers are generally reviled as one of the worst professions out ther - BUT when the same question is asked about the person's OWN lawyer - the numbers change radically into the positive.

You just love to hate us but boy do you need us. Deep down inside in places you don't want to talk about in your cocktail parties you need me in that court you want me in that court.

*cookie for the reference*

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-10 06:34pm

A Few Good Men.

That said, medical malpractice and many class action lawsuit attorneys are some of the most vile scum I've encountered.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-10 06:36pm

Stravo wrote:ou just love to hate us but boy do you need us. Deep down inside in places you don't want to talk about in your cocktail parties you need me in that court you want me in that court. *cookie for the reference*

Jack Nicholson, in that, y'know, movie.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-10 06:37pm

Uraniun235 wrote:I dunno. How would you attempt to defend these guys? I mean, it's not like they can attempt the Space Moose defense.

Put a tv in the courtroom and have the jury watch the new Attorney General's confirmation hearings on C-SPAN.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-10 06:38pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:A Few Good Men.

That said, medical malpractice and many class action lawsuit attorneys are some of the most vile scum I've encountered.

Don't forget personal injury lawyers, the types who advertise on the late night TV.

I pick on lawyers as much as anyone, but I've know several very good ones. I mean, once you get past the blood drinking and the nocturnal hours, they're folk just like the rest of us.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-10 06:40pm

As someone who works in a Defense firm - yes I can verify that Plaintiff attorneys not only suck the blood of the living but fuck the dead to get warm and remember what it was to be alive. Fuckers.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-01-10 07:27pm

Stravo wrote: And just as an aside, Lawyers are generally reviled as one of the worst professions out ther - BUT when the same question is asked about the person's OWN lawyer - the numbers change radically into the positive.

You just love to hate us but boy do you need us. Deep down inside in places you don't want to talk about in your cocktail parties you need me in that court you want me in that court. *cookie for the reference*

We may need you, but we don't WANT to need you.

dr. what · Post by **dr. what** » 2005-01-10 07:34pm

I posted this article on another forum. One of the trolls posted this as his full reply to the article:

It isn't torture under any standard definition. Humiliating as heck, but not torture.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-01-10 07:42pm

dr. what wrote:I posted this article on another forum. One of the trolls posted this as his full reply to the article:

It isn't torture under any standard definition. Humiliating as heck, but not torture.

You might want to show him what the definition of torture is according to international law:

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-01-10 07:56pm

On the upside for the defendants, that argument just might give them the basis for an appeal on the basis of incompetent representation at trial.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-01-10 08:33pm

brianeyci wrote:
If it was really true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers. Even if it wasn't true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers . Better than saying the pyramid was the same as cheerleader practise naked.

Brian

Yeah the military doesn't work like that. He can point fingers at officers all he wants. The Court Martial is presided over by officers, and they will NEVER seek justice for one of their own, even if they know he/she (Karpinski) is guilty. It's the worlds biggest boys club.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-10 08:49pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Yeah the military doesn't work like that. He can point fingers at officers all he wants. The Court Martial is presided over by officers, and they will NEVER seek justice for one of their own, even if they know he/she (Karpinski) is guilty. It's the worlds biggest boys club.

There is a small matter of 'following illegal orders', anyway. He'd still get nailed.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-01-10 09:25pm

Stravo wrote:As someone who works in a Defense firm - yes I can verify that Plaintiff attorneys not only suck the blood of the living but fuck the dead to get warm and remember what it was to be alive. Fuckers.

*gasps*
*swoons*
That's the most beautiful thing I'm likely to read all week. Sheer poetry, sez I.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-01-10 09:28pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
brianeyci wrote:
If it was really true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers. Even if it wasn't true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers . Better than saying the pyramid was the same as cheerleader practise naked.

Brian
Yeah the military doesn't work like that. He can point fingers at officers all he wants. The Court Martial is presided over by officers, and they will NEVER seek justice for one of their own, even if they know he/she (Karpinski) is guilty. It's the worlds biggest boys club.

That's why Clemenceau said that courts martial are to justice what military marches are to music. Every serviceman should be required to watch Breaker Morant. Not only is it the best movie about a court martial ever made (it makes A Few Good Men look like a big pair of clownshoes), but it gets the point across.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2005-01-10 10:20pm

Elfdart wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:
brianeyci wrote:
If it was really true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers. Even if it wasn't true, I'd get them to point fingers at superior officers . Better than saying the pyramid was the same as cheerleader practise naked.

Brian
Yeah the military doesn't work like that. He can point fingers at officers all he wants. The Court Martial is presided over by officers, and they will NEVER seek justice for one of their own, even if they know he/she (Karpinski) is guilty. It's the worlds biggest boys club.
That's why Clemenceau said that courts martial are to justice what military marches are to music. Every serviceman should be required to watch Breaker Morant. Not only is it the best movie about a court martial ever made (it makes A Few Good Men look like a big pair of clownshoes), but it gets the point across.

The exact Clemenceau quote is "Military justice is to justice what military music is to music." IIRC, it was in regard to the Dreyfus Affair.

And yeah, I'm wondering what high school does naked pyramids. Mine certainly didn't. I've got a nagging feeling this extends really high through the ranks (maybe not quite to Rummy, but pretty damn close), and I'd let everyone through the whole chain of command involved in Abu Ghraib hang by the neck until they are dead, dead, dead (to use the old Admiralty Court's official phrasing in piracy cases).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-01-10 10:24pm

Why didn't he try the Chewbacca defense?