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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Silver Jedi wrote:I have a question about all this, and I apologise that I know basicly nothing about the relavant law. Why is the owner of the store liable for a person in an area where they are not allowed to be (ie. anywhere in the store after-hours). How is the store owner neglecting his responsibility? Hasn't he fufilled it by telling you not to come in (by locking the door and hanging a "closed" sign in the window)?
No. Most stores clean up before closing shop. Therefore, the typical level of safety one expects to find in a closed store is not in evidence here. Read the thread before commenting on it.
I understand the situation of the pool owner with the unlocked gate, but what if he locks the gate and the kids just break the lock? What lengths does the owner have to go to?
He has to go to the typical lengths that a pool owner goes to. Negligence is largely determined based on what are known as "standards of care" that are in turn determined by norms and the behaviours of others who are engaged in the same activity that you are.
Say it was a wet floor instead of a ladder. Why is it accptable to rope the area off and put up a "caution, wet floor" sign, but not acceptable to close the entire store?
See first paragraph.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Some of my old neighbors were visiting another neighbor's house, and they tripped over his front-door steps and sued him. I don't understand how that's allowed. It's not like he negligently left the steps for tripping.

I don't think that one was reasonable. Some shit goes on in places. Everyone
s afraid to have people over in this town because everyone loves to sue everyone else if there's some injury on your property.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Some of my old neighbors were visiting another neighbor's house, and they tripped over his front-door steps and sued him. I don't understand how that's allowed. It's not like he negligently left the steps for tripping.
Now that's a truly frivolous lawsuit. I can't see any evidence of negligence, unless the steps fell apart under them because they weren't being maintained.
I don't think that one was reasonable. Some shit goes on in places. Everyone is afraid to have people over in this town because everyone loves to sue everyone else if there's some injury on your property.
That's why you need "loser pays" rules. The lawsuit system in the US is broken, but discarding the entire principle of personal liability for negligence is the absolute worst way that one could possibly try to fix it.
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Post by Natorgator »

That's why you need "loser pays" rules. The lawsuit system in the US is broken, but discarding the entire principle of personal liability for negligence is the absolute worst way that one could possibly try to fix it.
But wouldn't a "loser pays" system also discourage legitimate lawsuits? Situations of an individual suing a deep-pocketed corporation for legitimate reasons comes to mind.
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Post by Stravo »

Darth Wong wrote:That's why you need "loser pays" rules. The lawsuit system in the US is broken, but discarding the entire principle of personal liability for negligence is the absolute worst way that one could possibly try to fix it.
Actually Fed Rules provide for loser pays in many instances especially class action lawsuits. The main reason why this doesn't work is because the vast majority (something like 80% or higher) settle out of court so the 'loser pays' doesn't come into effect all that often. The real problem with Medmal suits and all the other cases clogging up the system is not that there are so many trials - its that so many people settle. Insurance companies usually want to know a roundabout figure to make people go away and ever since this trend began the plaintiffs counsels have flocked like vultures to those kind of cases.

If more people actually went to trial to force the plaintiff to prove his case you would see a lot more frivolous lawsuits vanish like so much smoke.

For instance in the trial I was on last year we were being sued for $1.5 Billion. Our client was adamant that they had been defrauded by the other side. The otherside was hoping for a big pay day not thinking we would go to trial. Well we did and their case fell apart within days, to the point where the plaintiff sat on the witness stand and began making up new facts to cover all the holes in his case. The judge was none too impressed by this and we won. We didn't have to pay a dime to the other side and the plaintiffs taking it on contingency were stuck with millions in legal fees that they were expecting woudl be paid off in the settlement.

If that happened more often things would change but frankly up to this point it is simply ALOT cheaper to settle than go to trial. The Trail ended up costing our client something on the order of $5 Million in just our time alone.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Out of curiousity how many here would support a law allowing purpose built booby traps in one's home?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wicked Pilot wrote:Out of curiousity how many here would support a law allowing purpose built booby traps in one's home?
I would imagine very few firemen would support such a law. There was actually a case a while ago of a fireman being killed by some fuckhead's anti-robbery boobytrap.
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Post by Stravo »

Wicked Pilot wrote:Out of curiousity how many here would support a law allowing purpose built booby traps in one's home?
It's a residence not the fucking Nam for Christ's sake. God forbid a neighbor's kid stumbles onto the tiger trap you have and loses a leg all so that the almighty big screen TV could be protected. Jesus where do some of you people live?! In NYC once considered a crime mecca and the home of the crack wars we got by with the lock and key.
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Post by Galvatron »

I was thinking more along the lines of the sentry guns from Aliens.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Well hey if it's meant for the criminals then it should be OK right?
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Post by aerius »

Wicked Pilot wrote:Out of curiousity how many here would support a law allowing purpose built booby traps in one's home?
Only if you live in a fortress home that's impossible to break into without several pounds of high explosives, several hours with jackhammers, or magnesium burning bars.
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

Darth Wong wrote:Duty of care is determined relative to other people doing the same thing you are. In other words, the duty of care for a homeowner is determined based on the typical level of safety one expects to find in a residential house. Duty of care for a laboratory is similarly determined based on the typical level of safety one expects to find in a laboratory. This isn't rocket science, pal. I can see that you haven't put even the slightest effort into pondering this on your own.
--I thought you were going to say that, but I didn't know what the law actually was (or its intent for that matter) so I asked.
-People can do all sorts of things in their home (at least in the U.S.). I could build a whole workshop in my garage if I felt like it or load my own ammunition. This would obviously make my house a much more dangerous place than those who don't have such things. I don't see how one can pin down a "typical level of safety" in the case of either a residential home or a lab for that matter. Some labs have very few hazards while other have many extreme hazards. What can the homes and labs on the more hazardous end of the spectrum do? Certainly the precautions taken in labs aren't very useful to a person that is determined to break through physical barriers and doesn't understand the hazard labels (and very few people off the street understand many lab hazard labels). The same is true for a residential home, but to a lesser extent.
-It seems to me that one should not be considered negligent if they comply with all the safety measures that are dictated by the government. Those measures are fairly clear for labs, but I don't know about residential homes. Frankly, the idea that negligence should be based on what everyone else is doing is ridiculous. Following that line of reasoning every lab could simply decide to have no safety at all and then they would never be found negligent regardless of how irresponsible they might be with regard to safety. It is much better to have reasonable standards for different types of hazards in various locations. That way everyone can easily figure out what the standard is and the measure for negligence isn't decided via mob mentality.
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Post by Chmee »

Following that line of reasoning every lab could simply decide to have no safety at all and then they would never be found negligent regardless of how irresponsible they might be with regard to safety.
They might find themselves subject to an even higher level of culpability in that scenario.
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

Chmee wrote:
Following that line of reasoning every lab could simply decide to have no safety at all and then they would never be found negligent regardless of how irresponsible they might be with regard to safety.
They might find themselves subject to an even higher level of culpability in that scenario.
--This is assumming an organized effort to lower what is "typical," and ignores very real and strongly enforced government regulations.
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Post by Chmee »

Nova Andromeda wrote:
Chmee wrote:
Following that line of reasoning every lab could simply decide to have no safety at all and then they would never be found negligent regardless of how irresponsible they might be with regard to safety.
They might find themselves subject to an even higher level of culpability in that scenario.
--This is assumming an organized effort to lower what is "typical," and ignores very real and strongly enforced government regulations.
The 'regardless of how irresponsible' part makes me think they're edging into wilful disregard of a known and dangerous condition, which is leading toward criminal, rather than civil, liability.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Nova Andromeda wrote:-People can do all sorts of things in their home (at least in the U.S.). I could build a whole workshop in my garage if I felt like it or load my own ammunition. This would obviously make my house a much more dangerous place than those who don't have such things. I don't see how one can pin down a "typical level of safety" in the case of either a residential home or a lab for that matter.
Yet again, you are demonstrating an incredibly slothful approach. You don't want to make this work, so you stop at every conceivable point and say "I can't go any farther! Waaaaaaaa!"

Don't be a dumbshit; workshops are typically found in only one area of the house, they are obvious when you find one, etc. And yes, one could determine what is a typical level of safety for a workshop found in a home.
Some labs have very few hazards while other have many extreme hazards.
And what about my statement required that all types of labs be grouped together under one standard? I'm sick of you deliberately pretending that every goddamned little thing is an insolvable dilemma.
What can the homes and labs on the more hazardous end of the spectrum do? Certainly the precautions taken in labs aren't very useful to a person that is determined to break through physical barriers and doesn't understand the hazard labels (and very few people off the street understand many lab hazard labels). The same is true for a residential home, but to a lesser extent.
See above.
It seems to me that one should not be considered negligent if they comply with all the safety measures that are dictated by the government. Those measures are fairly clear for labs, but I don't know about residential homes.
You actually think the standard should be set by a shitload of regulation? Do you have any idea how much regulation would be necessary in order to define what can and can't be considered acceptable in a residential home? How much political uproar there would be? How much red tape there would be? How many stupid, asinine regulations would result from giving government bureaucrats primary authority over this?
Frankly, the idea that negligence should be based on what everyone else is doing is ridiculous.
Yes, it is a deeply flawed system. Its only real benefit is that alternatives are fucking stupid, and even worse. And I haven't seen you offer a viable alternative, unless you honestly think that government regulations governing what you can and can't do in your house would actually fly :roll:
Following that line of reasoning every lab could simply decide to have no safety at all and then they would never be found negligent regardless of how irresponsible they might be with regard to safety.
No, because labs would have to deal with both informal standards of care and formal government regulations. Residential homes do not have this problem. Not to mention the collusional aspect of what you're saying. Collusion is a good way to get in deep shit.
It is much better to have reasonable standards for different types of hazards in various locations. That way everyone can easily figure out what the standard is and the measure for negligence isn't decided via mob mentality.
This is like saying that it's a "mob mentality" to declare that the safest highway velocity is the average traffic speed, even though that is manifestly true. It is so wildly impractical to set government regulatory standards for domestic household activity on so many levels that I can't imagine any sane person seriously proposing it. You must not be a sane person.
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Post by Howedar »

While not trying to further the degeneration of this topic into "Ask a mechanical engineer about legal liability..."

My grandparents owned a house that was accessed by wooden stairs going down a hill. It was at the coast, so things were wet a lot. The wood was old and natural (ie not pressure-treated) - it wasn't rotting or anything but had seen better days. The stairs could be somewhat tricky at night in normal weather, since there was no lighting, handrails, or very good traction. Furthermore there was a steep section where one could fall probably three meters onto gravel. It wasn't a sheer cliff nor was it right on the edge of the steps, but it wouldn't be too hard to fall going down the stairs and then fall off the edge. There was concern in the family that they could be left open to a liability lawsuit were a thief or somebody to slip and hurt themselves. However, all of this could be seen well in advance of going down the steps, and if you had your wits about you it was perfectly safe. In your judgement, were these fears reasonable or unfounded?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:My grandparents owned a house that was accessed by wooden stairs going down a hill. It was at the coast, so things were wet a lot. The wood was old and natural (ie not pressure-treated) - it wasn't rotting or anything but had seen better days. The stairs could be somewhat tricky at night in normal weather, since there was no lighting, handrails, or very good traction. Furthermore there was a steep section where one could fall probably three meters onto gravel. It wasn't a sheer cliff nor was it right on the edge of the steps, but it wouldn't be too hard to fall going down the stairs and then fall off the edge. There was concern in the family that they could be left open to a liability lawsuit were a thief or somebody to slip and hurt themselves. However, all of this could be seen well in advance of going down the steps, and if you had your wits about you it was perfectly safe. In your judgement, were these fears reasonable or unfounded?
It's hard to say without looking at it, but if pictures of it look unsafe to a jury, and somebody gets hurt, you're in big trouble.
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Post by Howedar »

It looks reasonable enough, and if you're not a dumbass it is safe. If you chose to run up or down the stairs without having traversed them before, you'd better have good balance.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:It looks reasonable enough, and if you're not a dumbass it is safe. If you chose to run up or down the stairs without having traversed them before, you'd better have good balance.
Well, that's a judgement call (it really is hard to tell from a strictly verbal description), but if that vertical drop-off looks too close to a set of stairs with no guardrail, you could be in trouble. Any lawyer could simply play a copy of "This Old House" on video for the jury to show them what a safe staircase is supposed to look like.
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Post by Howedar »

Of course. Not really relevant since there has since been a railing installed, and furthermore they no longer own the property.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Darth Wong wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:So, Mike, how exactly does liability law allow a robber to sue his victim?
Liability law has nothing to do with the plaintiff's moral character. It is strictly based on the question of whether the defendant was negligent. Suppose the store was not broken into and instead, an employee came in that morning and hurt himself in the same manner. He could easily sue the store owner, and no one would scream "bullshit!"

The purpose of liability laws is to discourage and punish negligence. Given that purpose, the moral character of the injured person is a red herring. Mind you, the robber would still go to prison for B&E, and I doubt he would get a really big award considering his situation.
Liability laws should be void in cases like these I think.
Really, robbers caught in the act like that shouldn't have any legal protection of any kind.
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Post by Chardok »

I wonder, Howedar, if you were to paint in flourescent yellow on the top stair and the bottom stair, something like,

*WARNING, USE STAIRS AT YOUR OWN RISK, NO GUARDRAIL*

if that would limit y'alls liability.
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Post by Darth Wong »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Liability laws should be void in cases like these I think.
Really, robbers caught in the act like that shouldn't have any legal protection of any kind.
For the umpteenth time, it's not about the robber. It's about the negligence. What I would do, however, is pass a law saying that the damage awards from lawsuits filed by convicts against their victims or family/friends thereof should go to the government, not the convict.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Chardok wrote:I wonder, Howedar, if you were to paint in flourescent yellow on the top stair and the bottom stair, something like,

*WARNING, USE STAIRS AT YOUR OWN RISK, NO GUARDRAIL*

if that would limit y'alls liability.
You'd certainly have a much better chance.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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