Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[Batman]

Yeah, I did. Did you also see the picture showing how it went through the target like it wasn't there and KEPT GOING, meaning it still retained the vast majority of its energy? That's why it's a minimum.

Same with the Borg being hit by 400 torpedoes is a minimum.

Not it is NOT you blithering idiot. The 400 torpedoes is a reasinable estimate. The minimum is the exact number of hits we saw them take on-screen.

The Borg weren't hurt at BOBW at all (or at least they regenerated all their damage by the time they hit Earth) just like the Shadows didn't expend any effort on cutting apart the Narn cruiser. Don't be a hypocrite, 10 kiloton Shadow cutter beam is the lowest estimate we can get just like 40 MT is the lowest estimate we can get of Borg cube endurance.

Completely invalid comparison. We SAW the 10KT cutter beam event. The beam cannot POSSIBLY have less power. We do NOT see the Borg take 400 torpedo hits. Given the circumstances, it's reasonable, which is why I went along with it, it is BY NO MEANS the minimum. The minmum is EXACTLY those hit we GOT TO SEE. Nothing more.
And it's 20MT for 110KT torpedoes.

(I can probably even get lower if I bring in screenshots of when Whitestars were bombarding Mars but I can't fucking find a good online gallery of B5, the Whitestars were firing in atmosphere since Mars was terraformed.)

Which doesn't change a thing, as there is evidence for WhiteStars doing much MORE damage. There is NO evidence for the Borg taking in excess of 400 torpedo hits.

As that would make a one-second phaser discharge the equivalent of 130 photon torpedoes (32 if we use the 450KT figure)-um, NO. Leave alone that was against AQ shields, which UNlike the Borg cannot adapt to a phaser's technobabble properties.

Oh well. The 30k TW figure isn't invalidated by the validity or invalidity of the photon torpedo figure, DW derived it from 34 different sources independently from the figure of photon torpedoes.

As stated where? The 30PW figure is based on the 200000TJ shield figure, which comes from the shield analysis. It IS, however indeed not based on the torpedo strength, though the E-D survivng 100s of photorp hits seems rather odd.
Not that those 30PW aplly against anything than AQ shields, of course.

Don't get me going about that again. It was you who chose the 0.1 MT torpedo figure, a bare mimumum which is inconsistent with phaser firepower anyway

And is canon as hell. Too bad, so sad. Totally consistent with phaser frepower against matter.

, deal with it. That's why the 0.1 MT torpedo figure is an absurd minimum

And is totally canon.

just like the Narn cruiser. You want to know why? When Riker says "it will take all of our photon torpedoes to do it", taking him literally means the 0.1 MT torpedo figure.

0.11 to .45, actually.
Riker could have be

en overkilling. Riker is not exactly the best person to trust when it comes to science. In fact, Riker is a fucking idiot.

Fine. Give me a HIGHER canon number for photorp yields, then. Until you CAN, the 0.11 to .45 MT range STANDS.

Check out the Riker thread in the Trek forum and tell me he could not have been wrong.

I couldn't possibly care less. Show me he IS, show me is wrong on the LOW side.

Now for a real torpedo number based on visuals, Master of Ossus estimates photon torpedo yield at.625 kilotons. That brings Trek to an all new low that I wasn't aware of before. However if we use the 10 kiloton Shadow cutter beams, then the Borg still have a chance.

No, because then we use the exact number of hits actually witnessed in Emissary to determine Borg durability. Either you apply the minimum or you don't.

If you do not trust the 30-40k TW phaser firepower, just what figure are you using? The 1-10TW phaser firepower is part of the same analysis, so whose analysis are you using?

Why do I have to ditch the analysis in its entirety just because one value appears to be based on false data? the 1-10TW number is NOT based on photrps AT ALL, so why on earth should I not use it? Turns out the 30PW figure WASN'T based on 64MT TPs, but as that is against AQ shileds it's irrelevant anyway. The 1-10TW is against the hull.

And adaptation or not, who fucking cares. Its just like saying "energy dissipation and aborption is superior to shields" or "my warp drive is superior to your quantum drive". In the end all we compare are numbers,

And that number is applicaple only against a particular nature of target, as evidenced by MUCH lower phaser power when NOT used against shields.

the method by which the Borg deal with energy is irrelevant.

I agree, AS THAT ENERGY DOES NOT EXIST. IF phasers had 30PW of sheer power, they'd display that regardless of the nature of the target. They don't theefore the power IS NOT THERE.

Frequency does not allow a shield to magically deflect energy. Adaptation is largely undefined and the only thing we know about it is that it is based on frequency, not how much more resilient a ship becomes when it "adapts".

The ship need not become one single J more resilient, because the additional power is not there in the first place.

You can't use some undefined mechanism like adaptation to throw out numbers.

Why not? YOU are using an undefined mechanism to bring them up in the first place.
Newsflash: Phasers are NOT DET weapons.

How much does adaptation allow the Borg to survive? 2x as long? 3x as long? 10x as long? 50x as long?

Irrelevant as additional resilience is not required.

So?

So, the shields of the Borg cube were intact in ST:FC or huge holes would have been blown in the cube.
Phaser fire lasted for more than eight seconds. Duh.

So? As we KNOW 30PW are not DET that doesn't mean squat. Evidence that phasers affect Borg shileds IDENTICALLY to how they affect AQ shields?

You apparently AREN'T aware of intensity. Your 5-second number is bogus, BTW.

No it isn't.[/quote]
Yes it is, as ist supposes that phasers affect Borg shields the same way the do AQ ones, which as evidenced by the Borg's ability to adapt they don't.

[brianeyci]

Okay, first the torpedo question.

Here are the numbers we used.

TM Numbers
1. 25 megatons (which you rejected outright)
2. 5 megatons (which you arbitrarily picked for some reason that I don't understand other than it is a more accurate yield, DW picks 7 megatons for proximity exploded photorps and around 25 for direct hits)

Pegasus Numbers
0.1 MT - 0.4 MT

Nemesis Numbers
0.625 kT

So photorps are pathetic in terms of yield. But I came across an interesting analysis.

I believe a Photon Torpedo is a high-tech cannonball. The matter/antimatter fuel cells are not specifically designed for use as a multi-megaton explosive device (unless specifically detonated by remote or pre-programmed to detonate), rather they are designed to provide power for the Photorps’s engines and to produce an energy field around the torpedo.

The energy field around the Photon Torpedo appears to be designed to burn/vaporize matter the PhoTorp comes in contact with. In close-range or proximity combat, PhoTorps are always used as impactors, not bombs.

Against shields, in sub-light combat, PhoTorps seem to use their energy field to try and push past the shields of a starship, both draining the shields by forcing them to absorb the thermal energy of the PhoTorps luminescent energy field.

PhoTorps also seem to, if they succeed in fully or partially penetrating the shields, will use what little antimatter they have left, to detonate. Also, given the ranged nature of Photon Torpedoes, it appears as if they are programmed to expend all their energy based upon a computer estimate of time until impact, and when they exhausted the bulk of their fuel will detonate, unless malfunctioning.

His analysis is quite in depth, ignore the "multi-megaton warhead" part and replace it with "multi-kiloton" since his multi-megaton figure is obviously based on TM. So we should consider the hull strength of Vorlon/Shadow warships. There is at least one incident of ramming between a Vorlon/Shadow ship(s).

Brian

[Batman]

Okay, first the torpedo question.
Here are the numbers we used.
TM Numbers
1. 25 megatons (which you rejected outright)

Because there is no canon evidence for them to my knowledge.

2. 5 megatons (which you arbitrarily picked for some reason that I don't understand other than it is a more accurate yield

No, you're right-I arbitrarily picked them because PTs are generally considered to be high-KT to low-MT. 5 MT simply seemed like a good number.

, DW picks 7 megatons for proximity exploded photorps and around 25 for direct hits)

Which is the delivered energy, not its yield, and both are based on 64 MT torps.

Pegasus Numbers
0.1 MT - 0.4 MT
Nemesis Numbers
0.625 kT
So photorps are pathetic in terms of yield.

no, photorps can be pathetic in yield (which we knew since STV:TFF, where the yield of the photorp fired at God could be argued to actually have been negative (and no, I'm not serious)).

But I came across an interesting analysis.
His analysis is quite in depth, ignore the "multi-megaton warhead" part and replace it with "multi-kiloton" since his multi-megaton figure is obviously based on TM.

His analysis is also complete speculation, and the 'cannonball' torpedoes are almost certainly based on STVI:TUC. Where the 'cannonball' torpedoes displayed no yields whatsoever, but instead acted as kinetic penetrators.
I can't recall any TNG torpedo ever doing that.

So we should consider the hull strength of Vorlon/Shadow warships. There is at least one incident of ramming between a Vorlon/Shadow ship(s).
Brian

IF you can find an example of TNG torpedoes acting that way, I'm game.

[brianeyci]

I'll try my hand at a simple calculation. Given that I've fucked up momentum and KE before, this will be one of the steps to redeem myself.



What is a starfury's mass? I have a figure of 5.0e4 kg from B5Tech.com, is that canon?

What is the speed of the starfury in that scene? Also 100 m/s from B5Tech.com

With that we get 2.5e8 J KE, and 5.0e6 kg*m/s momentum.

If we take Brandon Bray's analysis of 5.8e7 J of KE and my own 1.8e5 kg*m/s momentum from a torpedo impact using Bray's figures, then torpedoes would not penetrate Minbari hull armor like a Starfury, at least not in one hit.

Brian

[Nephilim]

I'll try my hand at a simple calculation. Given that I've fucked up momentum and KE before, this will be one of the steps to redeem myself.



What is a starfury's mass? I have a figure of 5.0e4 kg from B5Tech.com, is that canon?

What is the speed of the starfury in that scene? Also 100 m/s from B5Tech.com

With that we get 2.5e8 J KE, and 5.0e6 kg*m/s momentum.

If we take Brandon Bray's analysis of 5.8e7 J of KE and my own 1.8e5 kg*m/s momentum from a torpedo impact using Bray's figures, then torpedoes would not penetrate Minbari hull armor like a Starfury, at least not in one hit.

Brian

Also, in that scene the Starfury glows before it actually impacts the fin of the Sharlin meaning that it exploded before impact. This might mean that it overloaded its reactor before impact or it might've even been carrying a nuke inside of it on a suicide run (answering the question of why the EA didn't continue to use the nuke tactic, it wasn't simply effective most of the time).

[brianeyci]

And Batman,

These instances are the exceptions, NOT the rule. During the Klingon attack in "Way of the Warrior" we witnessed dozens of PhoTorp strikes that suggested impactor damage, not multi-megaton detonations. This was also the consistent throughout the entire Dominion War and the battle between Picard and Shinzon.

Bray says he looked through all of Star Trek trying to find ways a photorp acted like a multi-megaton, or even a multi-kiloton torpedo, and found nothing. It is not just ST:TUC.

Brian

[Connor MacLeod]

Through a relatively thin fin with presumably flimsy armor.. Later incidents indicate that a Starfury colliding with the main body (which would be more heavily armored, as it contains the reactor and living sections as well as weaponry) just barely scratches it.

[Batman]

And Batman,

These instances are the exceptions, NOT the rule. During the Klingon attack in "Way of the Warrior" we witnessed dozens of PhoTorp strikes that suggested impactor damage, not multi-megaton detonations. This was also the consistent throughout the entire Dominion War and the battle between Picard and Shinzon.

Bray says he looked through all of Star Trek trying to find ways a photorp acted like a multi-megaton, or even a multi-kiloton torpedo, and found nothing. It is not just ST:TUC.
Brian

I stand corrected then. Has he quantified that damage, as you are apparently much more familiar with it than I am?
It's just that the damage done to the E-A and Excelsior in STVI was pathetic, and those are the 'cannonball' torpedo incidents I remember best.

[brianeyci]

Also, in that scene the Starfury glows before it actually impacts the fin of the Sharlin meaning that it exploded before impact. This might mean that it overloaded its reactor before impact or it might've even been carrying a nuke inside of it on a suicide run (answering the question of why the EA didn't continue to use the nuke tactic, it wasn't simply effective most of the time).

That's just speculation though. The glow could be caused by any technobabble process such as the Starfury penetrating the Minbari's stealth field. We know the stealth system isn't a property of the hull since they are able to turn it on and off.

The cannonball torpedo idea and the new low-end yield of torpedoes (.625 kilotons) really reopens the debate of whether B5 or ST would win, especially since B5 has a huge strategic advantage of hyperspace. I'm surprised somebody hasn't started a "B5 vs ST" thread again based on the Nemesis numbers.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I stand corrected then. Has he quantified that damage, as you are apparently much more familiar with it than I am?
It's just that the damage done to the E-A and Excelsior in STVI was pathetic, and those are the 'cannonball' torpedo incidents I remember best.

Well the linky I gave you explains everything, it is a link to his post. And the "pathetic" BOP torpedoes did penetrate the saucer hull as soon as the Ent-A's shields were down, so they did their job. Of course if Chang had aimed at the Engineering section or the Bridge... but he was playing with them anyway.

Brian

[Nephilim]

Also, in that scene the Starfury glows before it actually impacts the fin of the Sharlin meaning that it exploded before impact. This might mean that it overloaded its reactor before impact or it might've even been carrying a nuke inside of it on a suicide run (answering the question of why the EA didn't continue to use the nuke tactic, it wasn't simply effective most of the time).

That's just speculation though. The glow could be caused by any technobabble process such as the Starfury penetrating the Minbari's stealth field. We know the stealth system isn't a property of the hull since they are able to turn it on and off.

Brian

Erm, and its speculation that would actually fit the facts with what's happening in the scene. Why the hell would the Starfury blow up 1 second before impact if it was interacting with the stealth field? Its not supported by the onscreen evidence at all, overload of reactor however IS.

Sinclair was going to ram a Warcruiser duing the Battle of the Line and ordered the reactor to overload, evidence points to this happening here, not "a glow occuring from the Starfury's interaction with the Minbari's stealth field"

[brianeyci]

Anyway, after all this, the debate is pretty much closed. No matter what numbers we use, the Borg have as hard a time beating the YR as the Feds (which is not hard, but the Borg would have to be interested enough to send more than one cube to defeat the Feds in the first place) and a hard time beating the OR because of their hyperspace advantage. The "photon torpedoes are cannonballs" was the last chance for the Borg, to see whether or not torpedoes would be able to blow huge holes through YR and perhaps OR armor, which they can't.

In the end though, it comes down to what is in character for the Borg and the YR/OR. OR would not go on a holy crusade to exterminate the Borg unless the Borg threaten their charges, and the Borg might be interested in hyperspace, and that's it. They don't need to send hundreds of cubes into B5 verse to get hyperspace, just assimilate a wandering vessel. Since the Borg may take decades making up their mind to attack (they have their own problems in the DQ/AQ), it is unlikely that the OR would view them as a threat, and the OR would probably just end up closing the wormhole or placing a heavy guard on it.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Erm, and its speculation that would actually fit the facts with what's happening in the scene. Why the hell would the Starfury blow up 1 second before impact if it was interacting with the stealth field? Its not supported by the onscreen evidence at all, overload of reactor however IS.

Sinclair was going to ram a Warcruiser duing the Battle of the Line and ordered the reactor to overload, evidence points to this happening here, not "a glow occuring from the Starfury's interaction with the Minbari's stealth field"

Hrm. Okay, but Sinclair was not "arming the nukes" or such, so the Starfury mounting a nuke is speculation as well.

Brian

[Nephilim]

Erm, and its speculation that would actually fit the facts with what's happening in the scene. Why the hell would the Starfury blow up 1 second before impact if it was interacting with the stealth field? Its not supported by the onscreen evidence at all, overload of reactor however IS.

Sinclair was going to ram a Warcruiser duing the Battle of the Line and ordered the reactor to overload, evidence points to this happening here, not "a glow occuring from the Starfury's interaction with the Minbari's stealth field"

Hrm. Okay, but Sinclair was not "arming the nukes" or such, so the Starfury mounting a nuke is speculation as well.

Brian

I presented two possible hypothesis as to why the glow occurred. Both fitting the facts better than your "interaction with the stealth field" theory which is far more fetched than either 1) the Starfury overloading its reactor before impact or 2) it being loaded with nukes on a suicide run against a superior enemy warship.

[brianeyci]

...your "interaction with the stealth field" theory which is far more fetched...

Fine, the stealth field was moronic. But since we've seen Sinclair overload the reactor, and we don't have definitive proof of nukes on Starfuries, its better to say that it was the reactor overloading. Superior ship or not, we've never seen starfuries loaded out with nukes in other situations such as against Shadows/Vorlons.

Brian

[Lost Soal]

...your "interaction with the stealth field" theory which is far more fetched...

Fine, the stealth field was moronic. But since we've seen Sinclair overload the reactor, and we don't have definitive proof of nukes on Starfuries, its better to say that it was the reactor overloading. Superior ship or not, we've never seen starfuries loaded out with nukes in other situations such as against Shadows/Vorlons.

Brian

Just one small nitpik here.
Sinclair did NOT order her reactor to overload. The reactor was going critical due to the fury being shot. He ordered the computer to target the lead war cruiser with maximum afterburner in effect.

[seanrobertson]

Gentlemen,

I have my doubts about the reactor overload explanation for this "glowing," Warcruiser fin-diving Starfury. That idea's vastly superior to some I've heard, but it still doesn't add up: if its reactor overloaded, why did it remain intact even while turning white hot? Why would the reactor heat the frame in such a uniform manner?

I have "ITB" on file. At about what point in the movie is that scene? Is it possible the Fury was hit by weapons fire, perhaps shots obscured from view by the fighter itself?

[harbringer]

As we have seen a similar glow from the shadow weapons firing at star fighters weapons fire is likely. I only noticed it looking at stills....

Of course is could be something else ........