Hell full of Ancients

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-14 03:41pm

I remember a fundie being interviewed on a talk show the other day that when he was asked whether a Jew who was living well, abiding by all the morally acceptable laws and essentially being a good person EXCEPT not believing that Christ was the savior would go to hell the fundie, without batting an eye or any hesitation said "Yes." The talk show host was a bit flabbergasted and asked him to explain. The fundie in his Southern (what else right?) drawl went on to explain that Jesus clearly states that he is the way and the truth and the light and only ht4rough him can a man get to heaven. When the host asked him if it was fair the guy just shrugged. "I'm only here to tell you the truth, I don't mince words when it comes to the word of Jesus."

Ok now. Let's put aside that the quote was written a hundred years after Jesus' death, that the gosepls are not even contemporary writings and that you have to accept on faith that guy was god in the first place. Let's accept all that as positively true.

Does that mean that all the ancients - Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Native Americans, Aztecs, Incans, Norsemen, etc...all these people including the numberless generations of apemen and human ancestors all went straight to hell? That the Buddha went to hell, that Vestel Virgins, Incan children, Native American infants, Greek Doctors, Roman senators and philantropists, phiolosophers, scientists, writers, builders, the poor, the rich, the meek, the humble, the pious. They ALL went straight to hell. But come 33AD, we suddenly started going to heaven?

And if you were a Jew- God's chosen people who he slaughtered infants and brought down walls for- you were REALLY screwed because unless you switched beliefs to some smelly Nazarene preaching to the masses then your chosen status was revoked and you're now going to hell.

Just wow. BTW bring this up to your born again friends. The look in their eyes is priceless.

xcr · Post by **xcr** » 2005-01-14 03:50pm

That is not a general Christian position. In fact, some pre-christians (Plato, for example) were considered, in the early church, to be proto-christians, and critical to the preperation for the coming of Christ.

But taking said position at face value, it would mean that every pre-christian, and every non-christian would be condemmed.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-01-14 03:56pm

Some fundies are inclusivists, saying that as long as you have some sort of faith, you won't go to Hell as God works through all the major religions. For those who never has heard about the Gospel, there are fundies that says that they will be exposed to it after death and gets to choose. However, I believe that most fundies says that non-Christians go straight to Hell.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-01-14 03:58pm

I asked a priest about this when I was younger, and he said that since God was beyond time, Jesus's sacrifice extended into the past as well as the future, so the righteous who died before He came were still saved. I don't know if this is authentic Catholic docterine, though.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-14 04:00pm

RedImperator wrote:I asked a priest about this when I was younger, and he said that since God was beyond time, Jesus's sacrifice extended into the past as well as the future, so the righteous who died before He came were still saved. I don't know if this is authentic Catholic docterine, though.

What's interesting about that is that many fundies attack this retconning of Christ's message and they have a very valid point. No where does he say that the previously good people would be saved. He does indeed say that he is the only way to get into heaven. In fact he even goes on at another point to say that rich people would very likely all go to hell.

Fundies attack this as a PCing of Christ's message to make it more morally acceptable to a global community. And in many ways they're right.

Natorgator · Post by **Natorgator** » 2005-01-14 04:01pm

I was always told that since there was not a savior yet, they had to make sacrifices to atone for their sins.

wood · Post by **wood** » 2005-01-14 04:05pm

I've heard this in various forms before. Usually, it's accompanied by some statement that if you were living by the "old covenant" in pre-Jesus time (Old Testament), you were slated for eternal bliss, otherwise you were pretty much fucked.

My sister-in-law is one of these people... when asked the same question as the guy above, her answer was "Unfortunately, yes".

At least she added the "unfortunately"

Zeond · Post by **Zeond** » 2005-01-14 04:19pm

While it's not "canon" exactly, IIRC form my reading of Dante's Inferno a long time ago, the first circle of hell is for those who died before the coming of Christ but they don't suffer like the rest of the damned. It's an earthlike place where their bare necesities are taken care of for all eternity. Anyone else who died after that was condemned to a deeper circle.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2005-01-14 04:21pm

Based on that list though, hell sounds all the more interesting...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2005-01-14 04:22pm

Fundies have it right: christianity is a horrible horrible thing. Whatever non-fundie christians today follow, is some kind of feel-good thingy, not christianity as it was intended.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-14 04:27pm

This was actually one of the first questions I used to ask my parish priests/Catholic school religion teachers. And you know, I don't ever remember hearing the same answer twice! My religion teachers would say that everyone was saved, my priests would say 'God works in mysterious ways' or somesuch. Yes, I can trace the roots of my disbelief all the way back to 3rd grade religion classes. Would've known?

I asked a priest about this when I was younger, and he said that since God was beyond time, Jesus's sacrifice extended into the past as well as the future, so the righteous who died before He came were still saved. I don't know if this is authentic Catholic docterine, though.

I should ask one of the priests at my former parish. I think this priest's answer is the most moral one to the question, but it's highly problematic when you consider that many Bible passages flatly contradict it. Then again, Catholicism and traditional Christian fundamentalism don't tend to go hand-in-hand.

wood · Post by **wood** » 2005-01-14 04:35pm

Badme wrote: Then again, Catholicism and traditional Christian fundamentalism don't tend to go hand-in-hand.

indeed - interesting isn't it?

I don't know a single Catholic who I would consider a hardcore fundamentalist. Of the three absolute nutters I know, one is presbyterian, one Calvinist, and the other an evangelist.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-14 04:35pm

Zeond wrote:While it's not "canon" exactly, IIRC form my reading of Dante's Inferno a long time ago, the first circle of hell is for those who died before the coming of Christ but they don't suffer like the rest of the damned. It's an earthlike place where their bare necesities are taken care of for all eternity. Anyone else who died after that was condemned to a deeper circle.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The Circle of the Enlightened Pagans? It's actually more of a small-order paradise IIRC. Almost like a mini Garden of Eden. On the other hand, when you consider that others enter eternal happiness because they were born later, it doesn't sound like such a great place to end up in. Not to mention that Dante tended to condemn a vast majority of people to eternal torment for traditional Christian victimless crime bullshit.

Dante's a fun read though. The best part about the Inferno is how it's so blatantly a low-blow political mudslinging attack against his real-life enemies. Nearly every circle has Dante picking out some deceased member of the opposing political party of his hometown out of the crowd to explain his crimes. It's as if Ann Coulter wrote a book on hell and threw the Kennedys, Bill Clinton, and Michael Moore down there.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-14 04:37pm

So ... Noah and Moses ..... in Hell, by this theory?

Boy did *those* guys get a raw deal!

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-14 04:38pm

wood wrote:
Badme wrote: Then again, Catholicism and traditional Christian fundamentalism don't tend to go hand-in-hand.
indeed - interesting isn't it?

I don't know a single Catholic who I would consider a hardcore fundamentalist. Of the three absolute nutters I know, one is presbyterian, one Calvinist, and the other an evangelist.

It's probably because most modern-day Catholics have many institutions which don't have any solid Biblical support. The doctrine of the Virgin Mary? Not in there; most texts say she got knocked up by Joseph after Jesus's birth and had more kids later on. The Pope? The only possible thing is Peter being made 'The rock of the Church'. There's nothing about Papal Infallability, the structure of Cardinals/Bishops/Priests, or anything remotely similar.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2005-01-14 04:40pm

Chmee wrote:So ... Noah and Moses ..... in Hell, by this theory?

Boy did *those* guys get a raw deal!

Actually the bible states clearly that people like Abraham and Moses are in heaven. So there was a way that pre-christ people could go to heaven. The bible doesn't specify how they got to heaven though.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-14 04:41pm

Lord MJ wrote:
Chmee wrote:So ... Noah and Moses ..... in Hell, by this theory?

Boy did *those* guys get a raw deal!

Actually the bible states clearly that people like Abraham and Moses are in heaven. So there was a way that pre-christ people could go to heaven. The bible doesn't specify how they got to heaven though.

<Preacher> Everything is possible with God! </Preacher>

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-14 04:42pm

Lord MJ wrote:
Chmee wrote:So ... Noah and Moses ..... in Hell, by this theory?

Boy did *those* guys get a raw deal!

Actually the bible states clearly that people like Abraham and Moses are in heaven. So there was a way that pre-christ people could go to heaven. The bible doesn't specify how they got to heaven though.

By being Jews, the Chosen people, that's why being a Jew was even a rawer deal when Jesus came along. You had to reject everything else you knew and follow this guy out of Nazareth in order to be saved. Your status as the Chosen people changed irrevocably wihout any warning.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-14 04:43pm

Lord MJ wrote:
Chmee wrote:So ... Noah and Moses ..... in Hell, by this theory?

Boy did *those* guys get a raw deal!

Actually the bible states clearly that people like Abraham and Moses are in heaven. So there was a way that pre-christ people could go to heaven. The bible doesn't specify how they got to heaven though.

Secret handshake, only revealed to those who spoke directly with Jehovah.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2005-01-14 04:50pm

One of the ideas is that when Jesus died on the cross and went to hell for three days, he preached to those who died before him, and they received an opportunity for salvation.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-14 05:07pm

how is this with infants. since infants really don´t know jack about religions do they go to hell if they die? or kids that die before birth?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-14 05:15pm

salm wrote:how is this with infants. since infants really don´t know jack about religions do they go to hell if they die? or kids that die before birth?

Jesus actualy addressed this point when he stated that all children had automatic entry into heaven - but gave no numbers on what constituted a child and whether children before his coming got into heaven. For instance did the Egyptian firstborn get to go to heaven?

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-14 05:18pm

I asked that YEC friend of mine a similar question. What about all the people who never got testified to and witnessed? What about aboriginal tribes that have never had any contact with outside culture?

His answer?

Jesus said everyone would have at least one chance in their life to come to him. God is loving and would never condemn people without giving them a chance.

Mechanism? Unspecified. But it was good enough for him.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2005-01-14 05:20pm

Supposedly infants go to heaven- or in some denominations, purgatory- since they are born innocent, without sin. A clean slate, as it were. Thus, they have no reason to go to hell.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-01-14 05:22pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Supposedly infants go to heaven- or in some denominations, purgatory- since they are born innocent, without sin. A clean slate, as it were. Thus, they have no reason to go to hell.

Which is a load of shit if you subscribe to Original Sin as the Catholic Church does. We are all born with the Sin of Adam and Eve on our souls. Gotta love that forgiving god.