Holidaying Scot shot in the leg

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

That at least is better than your violent crime statistics, remember spitting and swearing are technically violent crimes over here...the fact is compare that to say the number of fatal shooting in robberies in any US state...

Note however they also mention that despite this terrible threat...80% of police officers still dont want to be armed.
And he too says no to guns.
And this one is just pathetic....they've not actually charged him with anything, they are just holding off till they check the fucking facts.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Crime in Britain has been falling for almost a decade, however this thread isn't about gun control (although if you wish to compare murder rates in the UK and US feel free to do so).
That is already what we have, as he points out the problem is that people don't really understand the law.
He faced legal action for carrying a dangerous weapon.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Perinquus wrote:
You forgot to add.
Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.
You also forgot to add that this was part of an ongoing dispute among criminals. I believe he was a drug dealer and the others were rivals....oh and if I recall correctly his chasing them out down the street too...we had a thread on the whole thing at the time....
Last edited by Keevan_Colton on 2005-01-14 08:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Glocksman »

You also forgot to add that this was part of an ongoing dispute among criminals. I believe he was a drug dealer and the others were rivals....
And this is germane to the facts stated how?
Last I heard, even drug dealers have a right to self defense.
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Post by Perinquus »

And this one is just pathetic....they've not actually charged him with anything, they are just holding off till they check the fucking facts.[/quote]
Like hell it's pathetic. What's pathetic is that the British government has made it illegal to carry pepper spray - a weapon that cannot conceivable cause the death of anyone (except possibly heart patients). And it's pathetic that using a non-lethal device (by a handicapped man no less - a man whose physical condition argues powerfully against any possibility that he might be an aggressor) to defend one's self from armed assault even merits an arrest in the first place, let alone potential charges, and a possible conviction.

Oh no, there's no evidence the British goverment is opposed to a citizen's right to self defense. :roll:
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Glocksman wrote:
You also forgot to add that this was part of an ongoing dispute among criminals. I believe he was a drug dealer and the others were rivals....
And this is germane to the facts stated how?
Last I heard, even drug dealers have a right to self defense.
I just added the other little germane fact.

Self defense != summary execution of criminals...something that seems to go against the US idea. :roll:
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

[quote="Perinquus"][/quote]

Fuck off shithead and get back to me when they actually charge him with something.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
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Post by Perinquus »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
Fuck off shithead and get back to me when they actually charge him with something.
HE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DETAINED YOU GODDAMN MORON! HE WAS DEFENDING HIMSELF FROM ARMED ASSAULT -- WITH A NONLETHAL WEAPON. How does that in any way merit an arrest? It doesn't. Not in the U.S., and I ought to know, I investigate things like this for a living. Right there is the evidence you requested - that Britain's laws are indeed far more restrictive of the right to self defense. Over here, this guy would never have been arrested in the first place, and that's exactly as it should be.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Perinquus wrote: It isn't huh?

How about this story:
What the story fails to mention is the fact that this fellow was a drug dealer and that he pursued his rivals out into the street where he stabbed the guy four times in the back.
Spending eight yars in jail for defending yourself from armed assault is outrageous.
Defining pursuing people into the street and stabbing them in the back as self defence is equally outrageous.
How about the fact that the British government doesn't consider self defense as a reason to allow it's subjects to own firearms?
The citizens of Britain seem to concur with that idea.

And of course, there are cases like Mr. Martin's. Even though he might have been charged in the United States under similar circumstances, it is far, far less likely that he would have been - because the government over here is not so hostile to the idea that a person has a right to defend himself, with lethal force if necessary.
Mr Martin was charged for shooting somebody in the back as they fled and because he was judged to not be acting in self defence.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Perinquus wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
Fuck off shithead and get back to me when they actually charge him with something.
HE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DETAINED YOU GODDAMN MORON! HE WAS DEFENDING HIMSELF FROM ARMED ASSAULT -- WITH A NONLETHAL WEAPON. How does that in any way merit an arrest? It doesn't. Not in the U.S., and I ought to know, I investigate things like this for a living. Right there is the evidence you requested - that Britain's laws are indeed far more restrictive of the right to self defense. Over here, this guy would never have been arrested in the first place, and that's exactly as it should be.
Fuck off, the police have to check to see what's happend...you know investigate, get all the fucking facts. He wasnt charged with anything. He was detained, but he was then released WITHOUT CHARGE.
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Post by Glocksman »

What you see as 'summary execution of a criminal', most US jurisdictions see as something different.


For example, Oklahoma:
'21-1289.25. Unlawful entry of dwelling - Physical or deadly force
against intruder - Affirmative defense and immunity from civil
liability.

A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the
State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within
their own homes.
B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree
of physical force, including but not limited to deadly force,
against another person who has made an unlawful entry into that
dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such
other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight,
against any occupant of the dwelling.
C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including
but not limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of
subsection B of this section, shall have an affirmative defense in
any criminal prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable
use of such force and shall be immune from any civil liability for
injuries or death resulting from the reasonable use of such force.
Over here, the law presumes that if someone breaks into your home, they intend upon doing you harm. Laws like these are designed to remove any legal danger a citizen would face for protecting himself inside his home (much more restrictive laws apply outside the home).
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

[quote="Glocksman"][/quote]

Thats a pretty fucking dumb law.

"no matter how slight", so the firm belief the burglar might ping your ear and you can blow his head off. What a charming idea...and this isnt allowing summary execution of criminals how?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Keevan_Colton wrote:What a charming idea...and this isnt allowing summary execution of criminals how?
Because he's already broken into your home, y'know? And you don't do
that for shits and giggles...
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Post by Perinquus »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote: Fuck off shithead and get back to me when they actually charge him with something.
HE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DETAINED YOU GODDAMN MORON! HE WAS DEFENDING HIMSELF FROM ARMED ASSAULT -- WITH A NONLETHAL WEAPON. How does that in any way merit an arrest? It doesn't. Not in the U.S., and I ought to know, I investigate things like this for a living. Right there is the evidence you requested - that Britain's laws are indeed far more restrictive of the right to self defense. Over here, this guy would never have been arrested in the first place, and that's exactly as it should be.
Fuck off, the police have to check to see what's happend...you know investigate, get all the fucking facts. He wasnt charged with anything. He was detained, but he was then released WITHOUT CHARGE.
He was still arrested dumbfuck. And do not presume to lecture me about how to investigate crimes you ignorant fucking twit. Unlike you, who has never done it before -- and can therefore only speak from ignorance -- I actually have experience at it and know how to do it, and I know that investigating crimes does not invariably necessitate a custodial arrest.

The man who was arrested for this "offense" was arrested because he was carrying a weapon that was deemed illegal. But what reason is there to outlaw a nonlethal device like pepper spray? Because the government in Britain has ruled that its citizens are not to be allowed to possess the means of self defense. What more evidence do you need that they are basically opposed to the concept? In the U.S. OC spray, and other defensive devices like kubotans are not outlawed in most places, because over here we do still recognize the right to self defense.
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Post by Perinquus »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Glocksman wrote:
Thats a pretty fucking dumb law.
Actually, since our rate of home invasion burglaries in the U.S. is 12 % of all burglaries, and the U.K rate is over 50%, I'd say it's a pretty fucking smart law.
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Post by aerius »

London Telegraph Article Need registration, but I have the full text from before.
Where I come from, our homes are still our castles
By Joyce Lee Malcolm
(Filed: 31/10/2004)

If someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night you can presume he is not there to read the gas meter. But current British law insists that he have the freedom of the premises. When, last Christmas, thousands of Radio 4's Today listeners called for legislation authorising them to protect their homes by any means necessary, the proposal was immediately denounced as a "ludicrous, brutal, unworkable, blood-stained piece of legislation". Until recently that "unworkable, blood-stained" legislation was the law of the land. There was no need to retreat from your home, or from any room within it. An Englishman's home was his refuge, and, indeed, his castle.

But no more. Rather than permitting people to protect themselves, the authorities' response to the recent series of brutal attacks on home-owners has been to advise people to get more locks and, in case of a break-in, retreat to a secure room - presumably the bathroom - to call the police. They are not to keep any weapon for protection or approach the intruder. Someone might get hurt. If that someone is the intruder the resident will be sued by the burglar and vigorously prosecuted by the state. I heartily applaud The Sunday Telegraph's campaign to end this lamentable state of affairs.

Happily for us Americans, English common law prevails in the US; our homes are still our castles. Californians, for example, are entitled to use force to protect themselves and their property. Legislation in Oklahoma which allowed the home-owner to use force no matter how slight the threat has reduced burglary by nearly half since it was passed 15 years ago. What British police condemn as "vigilante" behaviour has produced an American burglary rate less than half the English rate. And, while 53 per cent of English burglaries occur when someone is at home, only 13 per cent do in America, where burglars admit to fearing armed home-owners more than the police. Violent crime in the US is at a 30-year low.

Whatever became of the Englishman's castle? He did not lose the right and means to protect himself at once. It was teased away over the course of some 80 years by governments claiming to be fighting crime, but actually fearful of revolution and disorder. When the policy began, crime was rare. For almost 500 years, until 1954, England and Wales enjoyed a declining rate of violent crime. In the last years of the 19th century, when there were no restrictions on guns, there was just one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million people. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world.

The practical removal of the right to self defence began with Britain's 1920 Firearms Act, the first serious limitation on privately-owned firearms. It was motivated by fear of a Bolshevik-type revolution rather than concerns about householders defending themselves against robbers. Anyone wanting to keep a firearm had to get a certificate from his local police chief certifying that he was a suitable person to own a weapon and had a good reason to have it. The definition of "good reason", left to the police, was gradually narrowed until, in 1969, the Home Office decided "it should never be necessary for anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person". Since these guidelines were classified until 1989, there was no opportunity for public debate.

Self defence within the home was also progressively legislated against. The 1953 Prevention of Crime Act made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or reasonable excuse". Any item carried for defence was, by definition, an "offensive" weapon. Police were given broad power to stop and search anyone. Individuals found with offensive weapons were guilty until proven innocent. The scope is so broad that a standard legal textbook explains that "any article is capable of being an offensive weapon". The public were told that society would protect them and their neighbours. If they saw someone being attacked they were to walk on by, and leave it to the professionals.

Finally, in 1967, tucked into an omnibus revision of criminal law, approved without discussion, was a section that altered the traditional standards for self-defence. Everything was to depend on what seemed "reasonable" force after the fact. It was never deemed reasonable to defend property with force. According to the Textbook of Criminal Law the requirement that an individual's efforts to defend himself be "reasonable" is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law". Another legal scholar found it "unthinkable" that "Parliament should inadvertently have swept aside the ancient privilege of self defence. Had such a move been debated it is unlikely that members would have sanctioned it." She was confident that Parliament would quickly set things right: "In view of the inadequacy of existing law there is some urgency here." That plea was written 30 years ago, and the situation is infinitely more urgent now.

At the same time as government demanded sole responsibility for protecting individuals, it adopted a more lenient approach toward offenders. Sentences were sharply reduced, few offenders served more than a third or a half of their term, and fewer offenders were incarcerated. Further, they were to be protected from their victims. Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer jailed for killing one burglar and wounding another, was denied parole because he posed a danger to other burglars. "It cannot possibly be suggested," the government lawyers argued, "that members of the public cease to be so whilst committing criminal offences" adding, "society can not possibly condone their (unlawful) murder or injury".

Meanwhile, much of rural Britain is without a police presence. And the statutes meant to protect the people have been vigorously enforced against them. Among the articles people have been convicted of carrying for self defence are a sandbag, a pickaxe handle, a stone, and a drum of pepper.

This trade-off of rights for security has been disastrous for both. Crime has rocketed. A UN study in 2002 of 18 developed countries placed England and Wales at the top of the Western world's crime league. Five years after the sweeping 1998 ban on handguns, handgun crime had doubled. As was forecast at the time, the effect of outlawing handguns has been that only outlaws have handguns.

In recent years governments have even felt it necessary to prevent the public from defending themselves with imitation weapons. In 1994 an English home-owner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the home-owner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

The impact on law-abiding citizens has been stark. With no way to protect themselves, millions of Britons live in fear. Elderly people are afraid to go out and afraid to stay in. Self defence, wrote William Blackstone, the 18th-century jurist, is a "natural right that no government can deprive people of, since no government can protect the individual in his moment of need". This Government insists upon having a monopoly on the use of force, but can only impose it upon law-abiding people. By practically eliminating self defence, it has removed the greatest deterrent to crime: a people able to defend themselves.


Joyce Lee Malcolm is Professor of History at Bentley College, Massachusetts, and Senior Advisor, MIT Security Studies Program. Her book, Guns and Violence - the English Experience, is published by Harvard University Press.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

MKSheppard wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:What a charming idea...and this isnt allowing summary execution of criminals how?
Because he's already broken into your home, y'know? And you don't do
that for shits and giggles...
Yes, he's a criminal and you're then allowed to summarialy execute him at the scene....you having reading comprehension problems again?
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Post by TheDarkling »

aerius wrote:London Telegraph Article Need registration, but I have the full text from before.
The opinion of the Torygraph contrasts somewhat with the fact that only 11 people have been prosecuted for "defending their homes" in 15 years.
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Post by Petrosjko »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Yes, he's a criminal and you're then allowed to summarialy execute him at the scene....you having reading comprehension problems again?
Right of the homeowner to be safe > right of the trespasser to be safe. The trespasser could have avoided the whole situation by not breaking in.

Tough shit. Don't go breaking into people's houses.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

TheDarkling wrote:The opinion of the Torygraph contrasts somewhat with the fact that only 11 people have been prosecuted for "defending their homes" in 15 years.
Isnt it great that people can use an editorial (someones rantings designed to fit in with an agenda) in place of evidence? :wink:
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Petrosjko wrote:Tough shit. Don't go breaking into people's houses.
My point remains, it's a rule for the summary execution of criminals.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
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Post by Petrosjko »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Petrosjko wrote:Tough shit. Don't go breaking into people's houses.
My point remains, it's a rule for the summary execution of criminals.
If the choice is between the risk to the life of the person who has done no wrong vs. the risk of the person who has voluntarily chosen to intrude upon someone else's life, yes, I don't expect the homeowner to attempt to pause the action so a judge and jury can be assembled. If it comes to somebody getting killed, I'd much sooner it be an intruder than an innocent homeowner.

Of course, in KeevanWorld, we all just go along with criminal intrusions, because god forbid we might actually hurt somebody.

Did it ever occur to you that how things work in Scotland just might not apply to the rest of the world?
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Post by TheDarkling »

Keevan_Colton wrote: Isnt it great that people can use an editorial (someones rantings designed to fit in with an agenda) in place of evidence? :wink:
Indeed, I better not show the evidence from the British crime survey showing Burglaries falling by over 40% since 1995, that wouldn't fit in with the crime out of control theme at all (nor would it be useful in proving that guns are necessary for home defence).
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Post by Glocksman »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:The opinion of the Torygraph contrasts somewhat with the fact that only 11 people have been prosecuted for "defending their homes" in 15 years.
Isnt it great that people can use an editorial (someones rantings designed to fit in with an agenda) in place of evidence? :wink:
Link for this 'fact'?
My point remains, it's a rule for the summary execution of criminals.
No, it's a rule designed to keep a householder in a dangerous situation from worrying about prosecution if he determines he has to use lethal force to defend himself in his home.

And despite such laws, once the confrontation has ended (say with the intruder laying shot on the floorand posing no danger), if you shoot him again you can and will be charged with a crime.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Petrosjko wrote: If the choice is between the risk to the life of the person who has done no wrong vs. the risk of the person who has voluntarily chosen to intrude upon someone else's life, yes, I don't expect the homeowner to attempt to pause the action so a judge and jury can be assembled. If it comes to somebody getting killed, I'd much sooner it be an intruder than an innocent homeowner.

Of course, in KeevanWorld, we all just go along with criminal intrusions, because god forbid we might actually hurt somebody.

Did it ever occur to you that how things work in Scotland just might not apply to the rest of the world?
People are allowed to use reasonable force; only 11 people in the last fifteen years have been prosecuted for using unreasonable force.

At least two of these involved hitting people in the back as they fled outside the property and another involved a man who had been tied up being set on fire.

People can defend themselves which is what they should be able to do.
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