Satan

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-11-11 06:14pm

So, if the biblical god does do a lot more evil acts then Satan, why is Satan considered so bad? Just what evil acts does he committ or people he tempts to sin? All I know is what he does to Job. When I took a year of Catheicism years ago(sp?) My priest told me that Satan and the fallen angels were thrown out of heaven because they revolted, and the reason they revolted is because they wanted to be like god- have his power, who's to say Satan wanted to to rule and be a mass-murderer like god? And by the way, why does the bible start with Genesis and the creation of the Earth rather than the creation of heaven the angels and the revolt of angels, which supposedly happened before that since the serpent in the garden of Eden was regarded to be the devil? Where is the revolt of angels mentioned in the bible?

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-11 06:19pm

Shrykull wrote:So, if the biblical god does do a lot more evil acts then Satan, why is Satan considered so bad? Just what evil acts does he committ or people he tempts to sin? All I know is what he does to Job. When I took a year of Catheicism years ago(sp?) My priest told me that Satan and the fallen angels were thrown out of heaven because they revolted, and the reason they revolted is because they wanted to be like god- have his power, who's to say Satan wanted to to rule and be a mass-murderer like god? And by the way, why does the bible start with Genesis and the creation of the Earth rather than the creation of heaven the angels and the revolt of angels, which supposedly happened before that since the serpent in the garden of Eden was regarded to be the devil? Where is the revolt of angels mentioned in the bible?

Becasue any Christian with half a brain knows the Bible is full of metaphor, stories and such.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-11 07:23pm

The bible isnt about the struggle between the good god and the evil satan. It is about the struggle between the lawful god, and the chaotic satan. Think about it. the reason satan was thrown out of heaven is because he revolted. He rejected the rule of a vengful deity. He was caste down. then man comes along, and satan gave us knowledge, he "tempted" eve and got her to think for herself. Throughout the bible he is trying to get people to challenge the authority of a tyrannical mass murdering psychopath. Who is truly the evil one?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-11-11 07:26pm

Shrykull wrote:So, if the biblical god does do a lot more evil acts then Satan, why is Satan considered so bad? Just what evil acts does he committ or people he tempts to sin?

He had the audacity to oppose God.

All I know is what he does to Job.

That was simple another potshot at God, but it fell short.

When I took a year of Catheicism years ago(sp?) My priest told me that Satan and the fallen angels were thrown out of heaven because they revolted, and the reason they revolted is because they wanted to be like god- have his power, who's to say Satan wanted to to rule and be a mass-murderer like god? And by the way, why does the bible start with Genesis and the creation of the Earth rather than the creation of heaven the angels and the revolt of angels, which supposedly happened before that since the serpent in the garden of Eden was regarded to be the devil?

Because the Bible deals with Earth. And actually, I beleive that happened after Earth was created.

Where is the revolt of angels mentioned in the bible?

A lot of places make references to it.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-11 07:34pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:The bible isnt about the struggle between the good god and the evil satan. It is about the struggle between the lawful god, and the chaotic satan. Think about it. the reason satan was thrown out of heaven is because he revolted. He rejected the rule of a vengful deity. He was caste down. then man comes along, and satan gave us knowledge, he "tempted" eve and got her to think for herself. Throughout the bible he is trying to get people to challenge the authority of a tyrannical mass murdering psychopath. Who is truly the evil one?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-11 07:37pm

Why did the Titans revolt against Zeus?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-11 07:39pm

If I remember it's Zeus and the Gods who revolted against the Titans.

Cronus just had a vision that his children or more specifically his son would kill him so to be safe he swallowed them to prevent such a thing from happening...and as myth goes well he failed.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-11 07:39pm

okay, what is with the rolling eyes

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-11 07:41pm

Why did Rudolph revolt against Santa?

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-11 07:48pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:okay, what is with the rolling eyes

I'll be more specific. Basically, I was rolling at the Adam and Eve thing. First of all, becasue you treat an obviously made-up, metaphorical at best account as a real event. And the point of the story and apple was not thinking for yourself. The point is that humans will always do sinful things. The Apple of Good and Evil was a McGuffin at worst, and simply a symbol of humanity having the abiltiy to both sin and do good works at best.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-11 07:54pm

*looks at Peckers' post count*

I was looking at the law vs chaos aspect of the adam and eve story. I was looking at it from a point of view that most dont consider.

I am an atheist by they way.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-11 07:57pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:*looks at Peckers' post count*

I was looking at the law vs chaos aspect of the adam and eve story. I was looking at it from a point of view that most dont consider.

I am an atheist by they way.

I figured the atheist part. I guess I just don't read into the metaphors too far. There are times when you can overanalyze

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-11 08:16pm

Shrykull wrote:So, if the biblical god does do a lot more evil acts then Satan, why is Satan considered so bad? Just what evil acts does he committ or people he tempts to sin? All I know is what he does to Job. When I took a year of Catheicism years ago(sp?) My priest told me that Satan and the fallen angels were thrown out of heaven because they revolted, and the reason they revolted is because they wanted to be like god- have his power, who's to say Satan wanted to to rule and be a mass-murderer like god? And by the way, why does the bible start with Genesis and the creation of the Earth rather than the creation of heaven the angels and the revolt of angels, which supposedly happened before that since the serpent in the garden of Eden was regarded to be the devil? Where is the revolt of angels mentioned in the bible?

The reason the revolt of the angels isn't mentioned is because the idea of Satan came during the Babylonian exile, when Jewish thought met Zoroastrian thought. The Zoroastrians had a good deity and an evil deity, named Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu. Another name for Angra Mainyu was Shaitan, which translates into Aramaic as Satan. Thus, the origin of Satan was in Zoroastrianism, though the idea of an evil power grew and evolved within the religion.

Of course, I have trouble with the God is evil portion, since I don't see any actions that are totally unjustifiable, though I will admit I have not read the entire Bible cover to cover. That's a discussion for a different thread, though, and not something to hijack this thread over.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-11 08:42pm

I wrote an essay on this very subject on my website.

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/topi ... satan.html

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-11-11 08:44pm

The bible isnt about the struggle between the good god and the evil satan. It is about the struggle between the lawful god, and the chaotic satan.

Hmm, is your avatar a picture of Raistlin Majere of Dragonlance? Lawful and Chaotic are terms I hear a lot in AD&D too.

Think about it. the reason satan was thrown out of heaven is because he revolted. He rejected the rule of a vengful deity.

Really? I'll have to look it up, I was told he revolted because he wanted to have the power that god had, not because God was vengeful.

He was caste down. then man comes along, and satan gave us knowledge, he "tempted" eve and got her to think for herself.

I don't understand exactly why it was good to be ignorant of good and evil, without that knowledge you could easily get ripped off or deceived by an evil person. And if god didn't want us to know, why did he create the damn tree in the first place? He said that Adam and Eve would have died if they ate from the tree, maybe that means he then gave them a finite lifespan, because they didn't die after the first bite of the apple.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-11-11 08:52pm

It would appear that in the earliest texts, Satan, or the Tempter, wasn't God's enemy so much as his employee —the figure who tested Man's fidelity to his faith and willingness to obey the rules.

The Tempter isn't even referred to as Satan in the earliest books of Genesis. Far as I can recall, he isn't even referred to by name throughout most of the Bible. And even in the New Testament, his function seems to be to test Jesus in the desert —in much the same way as Job was tested.

The rebel angel, or the Beast, who attempts to displace God's rule and capture the world seems to be solidified in Biblical text in Revelation, and is the source of the modern conception of Satan as the evil anti-God. And even there, since the entire idea in Revelation is that God's ultimate victory and establishment of New Heaven and New Earth is preordained, destined, fated, then you have to wonder what the deal is? Is Satan, or the Beast, really out to gain cosmic rule? Or is it that he's a figure around which to rally those who won't get right with God so that they can be easily targeted and destroyed by Divine Retribution? If this is the case, then Satan would appear to be a catspaw to ensnare those who won't be compatible with paradise.

Seems neither one of them are exactly who they appear.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-11-11 08:54pm

Don't see the evil? Well, let's see...

We've got genocide on a global scale. (The flood)

The "God-sactioned" destruction of all heathens along the hebrews' path to Canaan.

The tourture of Job and the destruction of every earthly thing he owned or loved, just to prove what an obedient follower Job was.

I'm sure I could think of more if I tried, but really...

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-11 09:03pm

Durandal wrote:I wrote an essay on this very subject on my website.

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/topi ... satan.html

You have a very cool site. I wish I had the writing skills of you and Wong.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-11 09:38pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Don't see the evil? Well, let's see...

We've got genocide on a global scale. (The flood)

If taken literally, as opposed to a large flood in the region of Babylon (which is what most scholars believe it was). Even if it was the killing of the vast majority of people, it was technically not genocide since Noah and his family (same race as the dead) survived. I will agree that it was mass killing, but the people were said to be truly horrible people, and I could not see how allowing a nation of (as an example) Jeffrey Dahmers would be possible with a just God (everyone's so quick to jump on the love and forget the justice).

The "God-sactioned" destruction of all heathens along the hebrews' path to Canaan.

I presume you mean the wars against the nations that attacked the Hebrews?

The tourture of Job and the destruction of every earthly thing he owned or loved, just to prove what an obedient follower Job was.

I'm sure I could think of more if I tried, but really...

Oh, you mean when Satan persecuted Job to attempt to get him to renounce God. God did not act in that at all, until God restored what Job had had and gave him double.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-11-11 09:43pm

The Dark wrote: Oh, you mean when Satan persecuted Job to attempt to get him to renounce God. God did not act in that at all, until God restored what Job had had and gave him double.

When did God restore things? I thought he simply gave Job good luck again.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-11 09:43pm

Yes it is Raistlin. And why do you think I call myself the DM?

That is just my take on things. I am no biblical scholar(being an atheist I have not the time nor the desire to read it)

exactly my point

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-11 09:54pm

IG-88E wrote:
The Dark wrote: Oh, you mean when Satan persecuted Job to attempt to get him to renounce God. God did not act in that at all, until God restored what Job had had and gave him double.
When did God restore things? I thought he simply gave Job good luck again.

Job 42:10-17 (won't quote it all, just the important parts) "And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then there cam to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before...he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters...After this Job lived one hundred and forty years..."

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-11-11 09:58pm

The Dark wrote:Job 42:10-17 (won't quote it all, just the important parts) "And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then there cam to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before...he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters...After this Job lived one hundred and forty years..."

Ah.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-11-11 10:31pm

The Dark wrote:
Cthulhu-chan wrote:Don't see the evil? Well, let's see...

We've got genocide on a global scale. (The flood)
If taken literally, as opposed to a large flood in the region of Babylon (which is what most scholars believe it was). Even if it was the killing of the vast majority of people, it was technically not genocide since Noah and his family (same race as the dead) survived. I will agree that it was mass killing, but the people were said to be truly horrible people, and I could not see how allowing a nation of (as an example) Jeffrey Dahmers would be possible with a just God (everyone's so quick to jump on the love and forget the justice).

And God's right to commit genocide or even mass murder comes from where, exactly?

Cthulhu-chan wrote:The "God-sactioned" destruction of all heathens along the hebrews' path to Canaan.
I presume you mean the wars against the nations that attacked the Hebrews?

And that confers the right to exterminate those nations in toto?

Cthulhu-chan wrote:The tourture of Job and the destruction of every earthly thing he owned or loved, just to prove what an obedient follower Job was.
Oh, you mean when Satan persecuted Job to attempt to get him to renounce God. God did not act in that at all, until God restored what Job had had and gave him double.

Except that God acted in that whole drama from the beginning. Recall the story? Essentially, it came down to Satan and God having an argument while sharing a pint or two in their favourite corner pub. Satan tells the Almighty "Let's get real, here. The only reason Your people worship You is because You give them all the goodies. Well, see that poor fuck down there? (points to Job) Fiver says that if You turn his life to shit, he curses You before the year's out".

To which God puts his cash on the bar and tells Satan "You're ON".

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-11 10:46pm

And let's not forget, Satan only exists and has power because -- get ready for this -- God lets him.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Satan

Satan

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Re: Satan

Re: Satan

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