Holidaying Scot shot in the leg

[TheDarkling]

Anyways, back to UK crime stats, which look more & more shady the more I look at them.

So one could go around beating kids over the head with a ballbat and it wouldn't count. One could also go on a murder spree at one's workplace and not have it count. Or I could just kill my whole family in their sleep and not have it count either.

It would count in the recorded figures however those have other problems which is why the intelligent thing to do would be to take both into account.
I did that in my posy and you ignored it for some reason.

Next we have questionable reporting procedures

Newsmax?

Why don't we just look for a National Enquirer piece instead?

This retied Yard fellow could be speaking over practice decades ago (when it did happen), without further information this allegation isn't going to wash.

You can find this info buried deep in a couple UK police websites. Look at the crime stats for London and you will see the jump that's mentioned.

Indeed you can, because the method of recording changed, I can't see what your point is here.

The government added new categories to violent crime so things like shoving got recorded, making this doubling out to be an actual increase would be to misrepresent the situation.

Next up
From 97-01, homicides have gone up 19%, I haven't been able to find more recent stats.

The 03-04 figure shows a fall of 5% from 2001-2002.

Murder is up,

And coming back down.

violent crime is up,

Not necessarily, even the recorded levels show a fall in most serious violent crime or other act endangering life.

sex offences are up.

Maybe or maybe the government’s efforts to increase reporting (and the tinkering with the reporting methods themselves) are having an effect.

But if UK residents can sleep better at night by writing it off to "spitting & swearing counts too", hey, whatever works.

Considering burglary has fallen 40% I think people should feel safer sleeping at night.

[TheDarkling]

All this proves is that the US is a more violent place than England.
Our per capita non-gun rate is higher than England's total rate.
I suspect you could give the UK the gun laws of Texas and the total homicide rate wouldn't change very much.

Maybe but who cares (although it is interesting to note that the fastest growing portion of gun crime is that with imitation weapons which would seem to indicate tighter controls are cutting the supply to some criminals), this isn't about guns it is about the assumption that the British government is letting crime run free and taking the criminals side.

No you wouldn't as the numbers are per 100k in each region, and the UK as a whole *is* England/Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

So if Scotland had a murder rate of 1000 out of 1000 and England/Wales had one of 0 (ignoring NI for the moment) then you believe the UK as a whole would have a murder rate of 500 out of 1000?

I think you will find that is incorrect.

They need to be weighted by the population of the area because the murder rate of Scotland only accounts for around 10% of the UK population whilst the murder rate in England and Wales accounts for over 80% of the population.

[Glocksman]

So if Scotland had a murder rate of 1000 out of 1000 and England/Wales had one of 0 (ignoring NI for the moment) then you believe the UK as a whole would have a murder rate of 500 out of 1000?

I think you will find that is incorrect.

They need to be weighted by the population of the area because the murder rate of Scotland only accounts for around 10% of the UK population whilst the murder rate in England and Wales accounts for over 80% of the population.

Using your logic, the US murder rate would have to be weighted to account for the population density of each of the 50 states.
It's not.
The US rate is the sum of the rates of the 50 states (plus DC).
The UK's murder rate is the sum of the 3 areas that make up the UK, assuming that each area is using the same unit of measure (number of homicides per 100K population).

It seems to me as if you're wanting to restrict 'UK' to mean just 'England and Wales' in this thread.
Until NI and Scotland split off and become separate countries, they're part of the UK and their crime stats should be included in the UK total.

Now if you want to argue that Scotland has an entirely different definition of 'homicide' and they're counting deaths as homicides that shouldn't be counted as such, then you have a case there for not including the totals.

But I'm certainly no expert on the Scottish legal system.

Maybe but who cares (although it is interesting to note that the fastest growing portion of gun crime is that with imitation weapons which would seem to indicate tighter controls are cutting the supply to some criminals), this isn't about guns it is about the assumption that the British government is letting crime run free and taking the criminals side.

It's actually about both. See Keevan's opening comment.

[Ma Deuce]

It seems to me as if you're wanting to restrict 'UK' to mean just 'England and Wales' in this thread.
Until NI and Scotland split off and become separate countries, they're part of the UK and their crime stats should be included in the UK total.

Hate to admit it, but it doesn't really matter: even when you add the total homicides for England, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland for 1999-2001, find the total yearly average for that period, then compare that to the total UK population (including N. Ireland), it still only comes out to 1.66, owing to the fact that England accounts for 84% of the UK's population. Of course, that doesn't change the fact the UK's homicide rate is experiencing a definate upward trend: from 1997-1999, the average yearly UK murder rate was 1.57 (using the same formula as above)...

[Glocksman]

It seems to me as if you're wanting to restrict 'UK' to mean just 'England and Wales' in this thread.
Until NI and Scotland split off and become separate countries, they're part of the UK and their crime stats should be included in the UK total.

Hate to admit it, but it doesn't really matter: even when you add the total homicides for England, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland for 1999-2001, find the total yearly average for that period, then compare that to the total UK population (including N. Ireland), it still only comes out to 1.66, owing to the fact that England accounts for 84% of the UK's population. Of course, that doesn't change the fact the UK's homicide rate is experiencing a definate upward trend: from 1997-1999, the average yearly UK murder rate was 1.57 (using the same formula as above)...

Duhhh...
You're right.
Concession on this point offered.

[TheDarkling]

Using your logic, the US murder rate would have to be weighted to account for the population density of each of the 50 states.

If you gave me the individual murder rate for each state then they would have to be weighted according to population.

This is simple mathematics.

It's not.
The US rate is the sum of the rates of the 50 states (plus DC).

Proof?

The UK's murder rate is the sum of the 3 areas that make up the UK, assuming that each area is using the same unit of measure (number of homicides per 100K population).

That is the incorrect way of doing it, you have to weight, I have already given you a simple example showing why weighting is necessary.

It seems to me as if you're wanting to restrict 'UK' to mean just 'England and Wales' in this thread.

Then you are viewing things incorrectly, I am talking about very simple mathematics.

Until NI and Scotland split off and become separate countries, they're part of the UK and their crime stats should be included in the UK total.

Yes and weighted accordingly to get a proper average.

Now if you want to argue that Scotland has an entirely different definition of 'homicide' and they're counting deaths as homicides that shouldn't be counted as such, then you have a case there for not including the totals.

Well knowing those crazy folk up there it wouldn't surprise me.

But I'm certainly no expert on the Scottish legal system.

I doubt they are either.

It's actually about both. See Keevan's opening comment.

I'm well aware what Keevan started off with however the bulk of this thread spun out of my challenging the idea that Britain gives the criminal more rights.

[Glocksman]

That is the incorrect way of doing it, you have to weight, I have already given you a simple example showing why weighting is necessary.

Quote:
It seems to me as if you're wanting to restrict 'UK' to mean just 'England and Wales' in this thread.


Then you are viewing things incorrectly, I am talking about very simple mathematics.

Indeed you are.
As I acknowledged in my post right before this one, I had a brain fart.

[Ma Deuce]

If anyone's interested, on the same site as the .pdf aerius posted, I found another with far more detailed crime stats for England and Wales: for example, the stats for homicide include breakdowns the type of homicide, as well as breakdowns for the method/weapon used: I don't have time at the moment to read through it, so I havn't really tried to derive any patterns or anything from the stats: just thought I'd post it.

Linky

[Nathan F]

January 13, 2005

A home invasion Wednesday night ended up landing three suspects in the hospital.

Police say three men entered a home on Whites Creek Pike around 8:00pm. Officers say they assaulted the husband and wife, but the woman managed to escape to a neighbor's house.

The neighbor returned and shot all three suspects. One man was found with a gunshot to the neck at the scene.

Two others managed to drive themselves to Skyline Medical Center.

Moral of the story: Don't do home invasions unless you want to get shot.

Actually, considering that comes from Nashville, it means don't screw with us Tennesseeans, more than likely we'll just shoot you.