Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[Connor MacLeod]

Clarification re: the Dark Troopers: I had just happened to stumble across them while perusing the SDN main site, and didn't know about them having been destroyed. I did not intend to posit that the Empire would have access to them for this operation, I merely inquired why they had not been taken into account so far.

Their potential performance in this operation may make for interesting discussion, however, I would ask that anyone who includes them in a hypothetical battle plan notes how many casualties (or indeed, perhaps the very success of the operation itself) are likely to be saved as a result of their deployment.

There are different *kinds* of Dark-trooper. At best, all NL can really claim is that they "lost" the ability to buidl that particular kind, but obviously they can build something like it of similar capabilities, if not exact. As I said, its not as if the Darktroopers were the only example ever of battle droids of ANY kind.. (Maybe they'd build something better like those Yuuzhan-Vong killer droids Lando produced...)

For the purposes of this thread, please assume that the Rebellion was decisively crushed at Endor. The Death Star II (nor any other Death Star) is not available by decree of Emperor Palpatine, as it has been deployed to keep guard over the gateway and ensure nobody sneaks past to effect a counter-strike against the Empire.

So whats to prevent them from attempting to build more and sending them through, out of curiosity?

Petatons? I was under the impression current yields are firmly in the teraton range.

Depends on the particular ships and their weapons complements. By canon-derived power outputs and comparisons to AOTC-ICS ships, ISD power generation is likely to be in the E24-e25 watt range..

Ships as big as the Executor are liekly in the E26-27 range, maybe E28 range (depending on calcs).

tens or huhndreds of Teratons for a Star Destroyer is probably conservative (Acclamator power outputs were only 2e23 watts.. the TradeFed Core ship had an output of some 3e24 watts.) .. but probably not much more than a 'few" petatons by the higher calcs.

[Connor MacLeod]

If the ROTS trailer is any indicator, those turbolasers have a range of between a hundred yards and a couple kilometers. Judging from the size of the SSD in ROTJ, they must be the masterbatory half an AU away right?

According to canon, the Death Squadron had the capability to execute a precision-bombardment of Hoth from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, bare minimum (Vader was pissed at Ozzel for alerting the Rebels by coming out "too close" to Hoth, remember?)

Furthermore, we know from ROTJ that combat was conducted at ranges in excess of hundreds or thousands of kilometers (maybe a bit more, the distances aren't good for precise estimates, but estimates have in fact been done.)

The EU has demonstrated ranges in the multiple light-second ranges (or greater.. like the multi-AU ranges you insist must be "masturbatory" ) and nothing in canon contradicts this.
Just because some incidents suggest point blank confrontations are possible (but rare or unusual - Ackbar's commentary in ROTJ) don't be an ass and assume the exceptions define standard performance.

[Black Admiral]

Connor: It possible to calc either of these scenes:

With a cry of, "For Ferrus and Medusa!" Librarian Melchor, his bald head and psy-sensitive hood crackling with lambent lightning, turned on a Plague Marine with slime dripping from its breathing tube and, in a blaze of magnesium bright light, obiliterated the disease-ridden abomination with a single blast of thought.

Pulses of lightning jousted out from his [Isador's] fingertips, frying orks as they dived for him or incinerating them as they tried to make clear shots in the densely packed muddle of greenskins.

Or this one for that matter:

The battle barge's hammer-shaped bow sported four massive gun tubes, each the length of a Cobra-class Imperial destroyer, and in a glare of violent discharge, all but one spat their death-loads at the raider. Each cannon was powerful enough to deal a shattering blow to void shields or hull armour, and to use them against a lighter ship like the Chaos raider was complete overkill. Shots from the first, second, and fourth guns - the third was still inoperable - savaged the vessel and opened it to vacuum. Unlike the Ogre Lord, whose crew had moments of screaming fear to understand what was happening to them, the raider simply ceased to exist.

In one murderous detonation of energy, steel and twisted bone-metals flashed to atoms and became gas; it was as if the ship had been flung into the heart of a star. Under Ideon's command, Bellus pushed on through the expanding wave front of the ship's vaporous remains and bore down on Dirge Eterna.

Note: I can make a rough estimate of an idolator's dimensions if needed.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor: It possible to calc either of these scenes:

With a cry of, "For Ferrus and Medusa!" Librarian Melchor, his bald head and psy-sensitive hood crackling with lambent lightning, turned on a Plague Marine with slime dripping from its breathing tube and, in a blaze of magnesium bright light, obiliterated the disease-ridden abomination with a single blast of thought.

Depends on "obliteration" I suppose. The dictionary definition means to "destroy without leaving a trace", which sort of rules out cremation. I suppose you could argue it might infer "annihilation" (the converstion of matter to energy), but if that were true, the person in question would become a multi-gigaton bomb and.. well you get the idea.

Odds are "obliterate" was either a technobabble removal, or it was mere hyperbole. Either way its not directly quantifiable.

Pulses of lightning jousted out from his [Isador's] fingertips, frying orks as they dived for him or incinerating them as they tried to make clear shots in the densely packed muddle of greenskins.

Assuming the bodies were completely cremated (again going by the dictionary definition of "incineration"), we're probably talking something like hundreds of megajoules (assuming an ork weighs about the same as a human male) for a single body. The quote doesn't tell us how many (but implies more than one) and doesn't give any timeframe (Although it seems fairly brief).

The only complication to this is that not ALL the orks apparently are being incinerated... some are merely being "fried", which seems to imply less tha incineration. Also, bear in mind that I am assuming 100% of the body mass is destrtoyed (that the lighting burns the arms, legs, head, etc completely to ash.) Lightning I dont think is nearly so "uniform" as that, but it would not alter the calcs by more than an order of magnitude, if that.

The battle barge's hammer-shaped bow sported four massive gun tubes, each the length of a Cobra-class Imperial destroyer, and in a glare of violent discharge, all but one spat their death-loads at the raider. Each cannon was powerful enough to deal a shattering blow to void shields or hull armour, and to use them against a lighter ship like the Chaos raider was complete overkill. Shots from the first, second, and fourth guns - the third was still inoperable - savaged the vessel and opened it to vacuum. Unlike the Ogre Lord, whose crew had moments of screaming fear to understand what was happening to them, the raider simply ceased to exist.

In one murderous detonation of energy, steel and twisted bone-metals flashed to atoms and became gas; it was as if the ship had been flung into the heart of a star. Under Ideon's command, Bellus pushed on through the expanding wave front of the ship's vaporous remains and bore down on Dirge Eterna.

Note: I can make a rough estimate of an idolator's dimensions if needed.[/quote]

If the quote can be taken literally, the ship was vaporized.. maybe atomized or converted to plasma, although the latter might be dismissed on the grounds of hyperbole (you could still argue it was vaporized though.)

However, without knowing either the dimensions or the mass of the vessel
its hard to make a calculation. Another possible problem is that it refers to a "detonation" of energy, which might suggest the ship's power plant blew and destroyed the ship.

[Black Admiral]

Depends on "obliteration" I suppose. The dictionary definition means to "destroy without leaving a trace", which sort of rules out cremation. I suppose you could argue it might infer "annihilation" (the converstion of matter to energy), but if that were true, the person in question would become a multi-gigaton bomb and.. well you get the idea.

Odds are "obliterate" was either a technobabble removal, or it was mere hyperbole. Either way its not directly quantifiable.

I'll see what else there is, though IIRC that's the only direct statement(there *might* be a reference to incineration elsewhere in IH)

Assuming the bodies were completely cremated (again going by the dictionary definition of "incineration"), we're probably talking something like hundreds of megajoules (assuming an ork weighs about the same as a human male) for a single body. The quote doesn't tell us how many (but implies more than one) and doesn't give any timeframe (Although it seems fairly brief).

The only complication to this is that not ALL the orks apparently are being incinerated... some are merely being "fried", which seems to imply less tha incineration. Also, bear in mind that I am assuming 100% of the body mass is destrtoyed (that the lighting burns the arms, legs, head, etc completely to ash.) Lightning I dont think is nearly so "uniform" as that, but it would not alter the calcs by more than an order of magnitude, if that.

True, I'll take a look, see if there's anything better.

If the quote can be taken literally, the ship was vaporized.. maybe atomized or converted to plasma, although the latter might be dismissed on the grounds of hyperbole (you could still argue it was vaporized though.)

However, without knowing either the dimensions or the mass of the vessel
its hard to make a calculation. Another possible problem is that it refers to a "detonation" of energy, which might suggest the ship's power plant blew and destroyed the ship.

Execution Hour gives the mass of an infidel-class raider (similar enough to the idolator) as 100,000 tonnes IIRC. I'll check that as soon as possible.

Oh, and I found this little gem about a Dark Apostle's strength:

"Bastard!" The Apostle poured centuries of hate into the curse and slammed his crozius into Rafen. The blow was imperfect, borne from fury and without any semblance of control, otherwise it would have killed him instantly. Instead, the Space Marine was thrown thirty meters to slam into the side of a cargo unit. Most of Rafen's torso armour was gone, the ceramite ripped away. Bundles of artificial muscle twitched beneath. He felt the full weight of his wargear as the thermal dissapators in his backpack clogged and shut down. The Blood Angel's head lolled. He had lost his helmet somewhere, and a wound over his brow gummed his right eye closed. Rafen tried to move, and felt broken ribs spearing his lungs from within.

Space Marines are BTW quite a bit heavier than a normal human, but I'm afraid how much heavier isn't made clear.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll see what else there is, though IIRC that's the only direct statement(there *might* be a reference to incineration elsewhere in IH)

Okay. But if its an incineration event.. then we're probably talking hundreds of megajoules (assuming a fairly normal human mass.) The figures could differ correspondingly if the mass figure is different

True, I'll take a look, see if there's anything better.

Well, even if not its at least a low to mid MJ energy event (at least one or two incinerations, even if partial)...although it could reasonably be expected to be as "high" as a few GJ total (at least). I don't recall for sure, but I think orks are heavier than humans.

Execution Hour gives the mass of an infidel-class raider (similar enough to the idolator) as 100,000 tonnes IIRC. I'll check that as soon as possible.

Assuming an iron composition and total vaporization, at least 7.6e14 joules (1e8 kg x 7.6e6 joules/kg.) (approximately half the energy to vaporize the TESB asteroid, IIRC)

Oh, and I found this little gem about a Dark Apostle's strength:

"Bastard!" The Apostle poured centuries of hate into the curse and slammed his crozius into Rafen. The blow was imperfect, borne from fury and without any semblance of control, otherwise it would have killed him instantly. Instead, the Space Marine was thrown thirty meters to slam into the side of a cargo unit. Most of Rafen's torso armour was gone, the ceramite ripped away. Bundles of artificial muscle twitched beneath. He felt the full weight of his wargear as the thermal dissapators in his backpack clogged and shut down. The Blood Angel's head lolled. He had lost his helmet somewhere, and a wound over his brow gummed his right eye closed. Rafen tried to move, and felt broken ribs spearing his lungs from within.

Space Marines are BTW quite a bit heavier than a normal human, but I'm afraid how much heavier isn't made clear.

To figure out strrenght (which in this case I define as the momentum impartted by the blow), you need to know the velocity of the body through the air. Knowing the distance and the angle, velocity should be able to be determined. Assuming a 45 degree angle (which is fairly reasonable) and the given distance of 30 meters, launch velocity should be about 17.15 m/s.

Assuming a much "flatter" trajectory (a smaller "angle", say 15-20 degrees) yields a launch velocity of around 21-25 m/s, approximately.

Well, assuming a fairly sturdy human (say 100 kg - 220 lbs), the marine had a momentum of between 1,715 and 2500 m/s. This isn't neccesarily a lower or upper limit, but probably an approximate "order of magnitude one" given the evidence here. The "force" involved I believe depends on the time needed to impart said momentum (over a second would yield a force same as the momentum I bleieve.. the shorter the "time" the greater the force involved, IIRC.)

[Dark Hellion]

A space marine weighs about 500lbs IIRC, then more for the power armour that they wear.

[Enforcer Talen]

the joy of war40k is that it takes *decades* for info to move. I can quite cheerfully kill every planet within 50 light years of earth, and have nearly a century before anyone knows about it. they would have to send ships to see whats going on, report back, gather a fleet, and launch. I have time. as well, all the close reinforcements are destroyed, which are more my concern.

Prove it.

re: the deathstar, how will boarding parties get close when several hundred thousand turbolasers are opening fire? wong has better stats on the death star then I do, but I think its firepower is more then sufficient to handle the peicemeal terran fleets that approach it. sure, terra is packed with ships - but not all of them arrive at once, and the death star can bitch slap them one at a time - or even a hundred at a time. and exploding planets and moons every few hours would make even the best pilot nervous.

If the ROTS trailer is any indicator, those turbolasers have a range of between a hundred yards and a couple kilometers. Judging from the size of the SSD in ROTJ, they must be the masterbatory half an AU away right?

even if it takes 6 months to destroy every planet in the terran system, so what? reinforcements arent showing up for decades. stormtroopers are prolly better then droids, as seen in movie 2, but droids can die and no one will care - and they dont need training time. give htem a few circuits and they are ready to go. fortress europe will be hardpressed against the distelled metal of 4 dozen moons.

Prove it. Then again, as per Wolfblade, Terra, Luna, and the moons of Jupiter are armor plated.

what does armor plating matter to a superlaser? its trained to go through sheilds that hold off entire fleets.

we're not using rots ships, are we now? point blank range for star destroyers is in the dozens of kilometers, so Im sure the turbolasers will be fine.

as for your first point, which did you want me to prove? there were several statements there.

[Enforcer Talen]

just realized an added bonus as I was flipping through my 40k manual - the astronimocon is powered by hundred of consecrated psykers daily, brought by the black ships, iirc. use a few star destroyers built by world devastators to cut that off, and no warp drive is possible

[Spiritbw]

just realized an added bonus as I was flipping through my 40k manual - the astronimocon is powered by hundred of consecrated psykers daily, brought by the black ships, iirc. use a few star destroyers built by world devastators to cut that off, and no warp drive is possible

The astronocon isn't what powers Warp travel. It's a nav beacon, a point of refernace. Cutting it off is just going to make navigation a little less certain, not stop it.

what does armor plating matter to a superlaser? its trained to go through sheilds that hold off entire fleets.

Well since Uraniun235, the one who preposed this thread has said the Death Star of any type or number of off limits this is now moot.

we're not using rots ships, are we now? point blank range for star destroyers is in the dozens of kilometers, so Im sure the turbolasers will be fine.

Check Wong's pages. He puts SW weapons at a range of approx 15 km IIRC( No, I could be wrong here. I think it says tens of kilometres). Even so IoM ship generally engage at ranges in the thousands of kilometers. In Execution Hour it says 500 km is 'suicidal point-blank' range. Just to put some prespective on this I seem to recall it's only about 6 km from Earth's surface to space. 15 km would work quite comfterbly for most of what the Star Destroyers are suppose to do.

[Spiritbw]

the joy of war40k is that it takes *decades* for info to move. I can quite cheerfully kill every planet within 50 light years of earth, and have nearly a century before anyone knows about it. they would have to send ships to see whats going on, report back, gather a fleet, and launch. I have time. as well, all the close reinforcements are destroyed, which are more my concern.

Prove it.

as for your first point, which did you want me to prove? there were several statements there.

That it would take decades for info to travel. If that is true word got around during the Gothic war awfully quickly seeing as it was over in four years (Battlefleet Gothic core rulebook, pages 94 through 101). For it to take the time your talking about hey must ahve been forwarded quite a ways in advance since it would take longer for messages to travel than was spent int he fighting.

Also a sector is bigger than 50 light years given the distance there is between stars and the cyclops cluster(I'm going to look this one up. It's a known system) makes up probably less than one tenth of the Gothic sector(going by map inside back cover of BFG corerule book). You do realize it's 5 light years just to reach the nearest star, Alpha Centuri, right? And outside of core areas that's a short distance spacewise.

[Connor MacLeod]

Check Wong's pages. He puts SW weapons at a range of approx 15 km IIRC( No, I could be wrong here. I think it says tens of kilometres).

You are so fucking wrong its not even funny.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... ctics.html

Combat can occur at very long visual ranges (made longer by the sheer size of Imperial warships, which makes them easier to see at a distance), as seen in TESB when the Rebel ground defenses engaged Imperial ships in orbit. It was seen again in ROTJ when Rebel and Imperial warships exchanged fire at long visual range and then closed to less than 10 km ("point-blank range") as the battle intensified.

And

Anti-ship weaponry in Star Wars is combat-effective at ranges of at least several hundred kilometres based on the unimportance of battle formations, even at long visual ranges such as those seen in ROTJ. This was demonstrated when the Rebel ion cannon engaged ISD's in the Battle of Hoth, and again when the DS2 superlaser engaged Rebel cruisers in the Battle of Endor.

If he did make mention of tens of kilometers or 15 km, it would have been as a lower limit and you obviously misinterpreted it.

Even so IoM ship generally engage at ranges in the thousands of kilometers. In Execution Hour it says 500 km is 'suicidal point-blank' range.

Star Wars ships conduct large fleet battles (with jamming) at thousands fo kilometers easy (EGW&T, ROTJ, etc.) "point blank' range for Star Wars extends at LEAST "miles" (ROTJ novel) to 100+ kilometers or more (Lando Calrissian and the StarCave of ThonBoka.)

Just to put some prespective on this I seem to recall it's only about 6 km from Earth's surface to space.

I'd love to know where you get your science. According to here its more than 400-500 km thick.

15 km would work quite comfterbly for most of what the Star Destroyers are suppose to do.

So 15 km is more than sufficient range for bombarding planets, for example?

Oh yeah... and 15 km is barely one ship-length for the Executor... I guess big ships like that are typically designed to engage in Age of Sail "broadside" duels (which is not what ROTJ suggests.)

[Spiritbw]

My mistake. Point withdrawn.

[Spiritbw]

Adeem: Funny...I could have sworn reading that it was less than that to space. Gah, been to long out of school I guess and I need someplace to double check things I read against.

[PeZook]

Adeem: Funny...I could have sworn reading that it was less than that to space. Gah, been to long out of school I guess and I need someplace to double check things I read against.

Even regulations of international law with regards to air space declare that boundary to be much higher. Six kilometers is still the realm of aircraft.

200 kilometers is low orbit over Earth.
Geostationary orbit (Like what you would need to perform orbital bombardment over a long period of time) is 35 000 kilometers

[NecronLord]

Right, and the Empire totally lacks the ability to build powered armor of any kind and stick human-shaped droids in it? Or somethign simlar.

Of course, ,there are the SD-9/SD-10 battle droids, Viper Automadons, Tank Droids...

Fairly obviously, they scrapped the Dark Trooper project after Mohc's death. So saying they'll have Dark Troopers is just wrong, because rather obviously, after the incident, funding and political backing for that kind of project dissapeared. Rational? No. Likely, given the lack of Dark Troopers turning up later? Yes.

And since when did the Empire do things the non-manpower intensive way? Imperial Warships are designed to make as many jobs for the crew as possible. They could have the vast majority of their crews replaced with droids with no loss of efficiency.

[NecronLord]

In fact:

Katarn infiltrated the Arc Hammer and sabotaged the titanic vessel. The Emperor was so infuriated by the loss of the Arc Hammer, and the incredible investment in the dark trooper project, that all research into stormtrooper battle droids ended with Mohc's death.

There. No more political backing or funding. No more Dark Troopers.

[Currald]

Communication doesn't take years in the Imperium. Long range communications are accomplished by psykers known as astropaths, who can communicate telepathically (barring warp storms) over insterstellar distances.

Regardless of whether the Imperium can still produce void torpedoes, they still possess a significant stockpile. While they may be rare and precious on the "average" battlefield, Holy Terra is far from average. The Imperium will not hesitate to use their most powerful weapons to destroy the Star Destroyers. Void weapons do still exist in the 41st millennium; my Imperator Titan got taken out by one in my last game of Epic!

[Gunhead]

I've wondered how effective torpedoe weapons would be against SW capital ships.
They don't use capital ship sized proton torpedoes in SW. So what's the reason behind this? Too easily intercepted/destroyed? SW droid tech could produce pretty smart missiles, namely ones that could dodge incoming fire. They also wouldn't need guidance from the launching ship, at least not after they're close enough to visually track the target. Since the subject came up in this thread no point creating a new one.
Working laser weaponry would reduce the significance of missiles quite a bit.

So thoughts on this.

-Gunhead

[Falkenhayn]

the joy of war40k is that it takes *decades* for info to move. I can quite cheerfully kill every planet within 50 light years of earth, and have nearly a century before anyone knows about it. they would have to send ships to see whats going on, report back, gather a fleet, and launch. I have time. as well, all the close reinforcements are destroyed, which are more my concern.

Prove it.

re: the deathstar, how will boarding parties get close when several hundred thousand turbolasers are opening fire? wong has better stats on the death star then I do, but I think its firepower is more then sufficient to handle the peicemeal terran fleets that approach it. sure, terra is packed with ships - but not all of them arrive at once, and the death star can bitch slap them one at a time - or even a hundred at a time. and exploding planets and moons every few hours would make even the best pilot nervous.

If the ROTS trailer is any indicator, those turbolasers have a range of between a hundred yards and a couple kilometers. Judging from the size of the SSD in ROTJ, they must be the masterbatory half an AU away right?

even if it takes 6 months to destroy every planet in the terran system, so what? reinforcements arent showing up for decades. stormtroopers are prolly better then droids, as seen in movie 2, but droids can die and no one will care - and they dont need training time. give htem a few circuits and they are ready to go. fortress europe will be hardpressed against the distelled metal of 4 dozen moons.

Prove it. Then again, as per Wolfblade, Terra, Luna, and the moons of Jupiter are armor plated.

what does armor plating matter to a superlaser? its trained to go through sheilds that hold off entire fleets.

we're not using rots ships, are we now? point blank range for star destroyers is in the dozens of kilometers, so Im sure the turbolasers will be fine.

as for your first point, which did you want me to prove? there were several statements there.

I want you to prove that it would take the IoM decades to responed to a crisis the size of the one proposed in the OP.

MaCleod: Points conceded.

[White Haven]

Torpedoe...why am I getting Dan Quail flashbacks?

[Gunhead]

TIME DISPLACEMENT
The time differences between real space and warpspace are quite drastic. Not only does time pass at different rates in both kinds of space, but it also passes at very variable rates. Until a ship finishes its jump, it is impossible for a ship's crew to know exactly how long their journey has taken. Time passing in real space is referred to as real time. Time passing on board a spacecraft is referred to as warp time. For example, a 100 light year jump will seem to take from 234 to 934 hours to a spaceship's crew, but between 3 days and 3 weeks will have passed in real space. These times do not include journey times out to and from jump points on the edge of the star systems. It takes from days to weeks of travel at sub-light speeds to reach a drop from the spaceship's starting planet, and a similar time to re-enter the destination system.
The Imperium is approximately 75 thousand light years from edge to edge. A journey of this length would take between 75 and 300 days in warp time, and between 6 years and 40 years real time.

BATTLEFLEETS
Imperial space is so vast, with so many star systems and areas of Wilderness Space to be patrolled, that even the many thousands of spaceships in the warfleets must he spread thin, with individual ships and squadrons set out on their own assignments. The Imperium cannot maintain permanent fleets ready to respond to invasion or rebellion. Nor would it make sense to do so - it would take so long for a fleet to get from its base to the war zone that the enemy would surely have moved on by the time it arrived.
Instead, temporary battlefleets are gathered together whenever they are needed. Warships within a relatively small area are summoned to join the Battlefleet. It is rare for ships more than 50 light years from the battle zone to be included in the fleet and more commonly only those within 10 or 20 light years are summoned. Even with ships this close to the battle, it will take at least days and more often weeks for them to arrive.
Only during the very largest of wars, lasting for many decades, does the Imperium bring battlefleets together and dispatch them en masse to a warzone. Such a war is currently underway in the galaxy's south-eastern spiral arm. Here the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kraken is inexorably advancing, conquering and consuming the planets in its path. A massive campaign involving millions of men, thousands of ships and whole chapters of Space Marines is being fought against the Tyranid invasion. Fleets are being mustered in all the Segmentae to begin the long journey to the warzone. The journey will take decades in some cases and many of the crew will never see the battles they are heading towards - but the Imperium knows all too well that in mere decades the Tyranid threat will be as strong as even

These were taken from the 40K fluff bible. As far as I know they're accurate descriptions of travel in 40K and it's effects to space combat.

-Gunhead

[Black Admiral]

Okay. But if its an incineration event.. then we're probably talking hundreds of megajoules (assuming a fairly normal human mass.) The figures could differ correspondingly if the mass figure is different.

Page 203 of Iron Hands describes another psychic attack from Melchor as "immolating" a cultist (normal human AFAIK).

Well, even if not its at least a low to mid MJ energy event (at least one or two incinerations, even if partial)...although it could reasonably be expected to be as "high" as a few GJ total (at least). I don't recall for sure, but I think orks are heavier than humans.

They're taller and broader (one ork hit three meters tall in Ghostmaker), and pretty muhch definitely mass more than humans.

Assuming an iron composition and total vaporization, at least 7.6e14 joules (1e8 kg x 7.6e6 joules/kg.) (approximately half the energy to vaporize the TESB asteroid, IIRC)

Should do fine as an extremely low-end, since the idolator's shields deflected an unknown amount of the shot's energy, and it (obviously) isn't made from iron.

To figure out strrenght (which in this case I define as the momentum impartted by the blow), you need to know the velocity of the body through the air. Knowing the distance and the angle, velocity should be able to be determined. Assuming a 45 degree angle (which is fairly reasonable) and the given distance of 30 meters, launch velocity should be about 17.15 m/s.

Assuming a much "flatter" trajectory (a smaller "angle", say 15-20 degrees) yields a launch velocity of around 21-25 m/s, approximately.

Well, assuming a fairly sturdy human (say 100 kg - 220 lbs), the marine had a momentum of between 1,715 and 2500 m/s. This isn't neccesarily a lower or upper limit, but probably an approximate "order of magnitude one" given the evidence here. The "force" involved I believe depends on the time needed to impart said momentum (over a second would yield a force same as the momentum I bleieve.. the shorter the "time" the greater the force involved, IIRC.)

Traitor General says that SMs weigh 533 of an unknown unit fully armoured, but Uexhull cuts off the ordinal doing the measuring before he gives units. I'd guess that the ordinal was going to say either kilograms or pounds, since the Imperium uses mainly modern units of measurement (with some alterations after 40 millenia).

At a guess, I'm say that Iskavan only scored a glancing hit on Rafen, since he wasn't making much effort to be precise (being monumentally pissed off does that), and a direct hit wouldn't have torn off the outer plating of Rafen's chestplate; probably would've fractured or cut through it.

BTW, there are some scenes which might be calcable for 40K personal weapons in the Ghosts books and Storm of Iron. Since 40K small arms are relevant to this debate I'll try and find them.

[NecronLord]

I've wondered how effective torpedoe weapons would be against SW capital ships.

Minimally. At the speed 40K torpedos travel, the GE's gunners could shoot them down with contemptuous ease.

[Gunhead]

Actually Necron, I was thinking generally not just 40K torpedoes.

-Gunhead