Sharon Okays Unrestricted Anti-Terror

[Master of Ossus]

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli forces will increase anti-terror operations "without restrictions" in the wake of recent attacks against Israeli citizens, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon said Sunday.

"Over the weekend and this morning there has been an increase in Palestinian terror against Israeli civilians," Sharon said before his weekly cabinet meeting.

"Unfortunately despite the change in Palestinian leadership, we see that its leaders have not even begun to take any action against the terror. This situation cannot continue."

Mahmoud Abbas was sworn in as the Palestinian Authority president Saturday. Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, won last weekend's election with more than 62 percent of the vote.

"The IDF and security forces have been instructed to increase operations aimed at stopping the terror and they will continue to do so, without restrictions. I emphasize without restrictions as long as the Palestinians do not take action," Sharon said.

Shortly after winning the election last Sunday, Abbas was congratulated and welcomed by Sharon, who voiced his intent to meet with Abbas in the coming weeks.

However, Sharon on Friday suspended contact with Abbas and the Palestinian Authority after a deadly attack killed six Israeli civilians in Gaza. Hamas, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of the Fatah party founded by the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, all claimed responsibility for Thursday's attack.

Abbas was the candidate of Arafat's Fatah party.

[Crown]

Where's a picture of a snake eating its own tail when you need one?

[Tatterdemalion]

So its business as usual in Israel then?

[AMX]

Well..

Mahmoud Abbas was sworn in as the Palestinian Authority president Saturday.

Sharon on Friday suspended contact with Abbas and the Palestinian Authority

Thursday's attack.

Not even in office, and already no chance - neither with his own people nor the other side.

Smells like it'll end with "business as usual", yes.

[Ace Pace]

Dammit, when I thought Abas might mean a change, sharon goes and fucks it.

[salm]

there goes another shred of hope.

[Lord Zentei]

Dammit, when I thought Abas might mean a change, sharon goes and fucks it.

Are you really surprised? He needs to kiss up to his constituency.

He isn't even trying to appear reconciliatory, but continuing this tired old "the Palestinian Authority has not done enough" bullshit while making it impossible for them to do so - and the actions of the extremists are automatically taken to be PA sanctioned or at least made possible by the PA turning a blind eye, as if the Palestinians were governed by a goddamn hive mind or something.

[Chmee]

Neither side had the political will to make the compromises necessary for peace before Abbas was elected, and I'm hardly surprised that his election didn't change that. They still don't want peace ... they want to WIN. As long as that remains their priority, they're locked in a death struggle. As long as my tax dollars and the lives of our soldiers aren't being spent to prop up either rigid, uncompromising position, it's none of my business.

But dammit, we're still blowing my tax dollars there, so it is.

[Saurencaerthai]

there goes another shred of hope.

Again.

[Coyote]

Huh, IIRC it was 6 Israeli civilians that were killed by Palestinians that prompted the Israeli counter.... and now Hamas is calling for a suspension of attacks against Israelis.

Sharon did not just arbitrarily do this in a fit of pique. Every time peace looms, lunatics that have a hope to take over the Palestinian Authority and replace it with a more radical militant faction.

Actually, I think this may be the moment when the Palestinians must rise to the occassion and make a choice: continue the cycle or sit at the table. They actually have the initiative now. And they are sick of the war and tired of living in poverty in order to enable it.

At the moment people realize what is at risk... if they let it slide back into Business as Usual, then reflex will take over...

[tharkûn]

They still don't want peace ... they want to WIN

Ehh most people on both sides want peace. The number of Palestinians who really want to keep living a 50% unemployment economy while they wait for crazies with bombs to "drive the Jews into the sea" isn't all that high. A majority of Israelis want to pull out of Gaza, and Sharon is still moving foward with that proposition. The problem is that every whacko with rockets, guns, and explosives has a veto on the peace process.

What somebody needs to do is to take and set some limits on the veto: terrorist attacks below this threshold don't illicit Israeli retaliation, the PA is charged with that, on the flip side terrorist attacks above a certain magnitude will be dealt with by the IDF and the PA will endorse targeted retaliation. Sure you could never admit that you struck this type of quid pro quo, but until they do every Palestinian attack weakens the hawkish credentials of the Israeli government and every Israeli incursion makes it harder for the PA to stop terrorism.

I was really hoping that Abu Mazen saw the writing on the wall and understood that delay only makes his position less teneble and that Sharon would see that Abu Mazen needed breathing room in order to make any realstic progress towards nonviolence.

[Chmee]

Huh, IIRC it was 6 Israeli civilians that were killed by Palestinians that prompted the Israeli counter.... and now Hamas is calling for a suspension of attacks against Israelis.

Sharon did not just arbitrarily do this in a fit of pique. Every time peace looms, lunatics that have a hope to take over the Palestinian Authority and replace it with a more radical militant faction.

And every time, Sharon takes the bait and validates the radicals by initiating reprisals that inevitably kill women & kids, creating a few new fanatical, grief-stricken Hamas loyalists who will do ANYthing to win, just like Sharon.

They'll never get out of this vicious circle of reprisals as long as the leaders on both sides let their actions be directed by the fringes of the other side.

[salm]

Actually, I think this may be the moment when the Palestinians must rise to the occassion and make a choice: continue the cycle or sit at the table. They actually have the initiative now. And they are sick of the war and tired of living in poverty in order to enable it.

either that, or israel could stop continuing the cycle. might work better since, you know, they have stuff like controll over their army, unlike the palestinians who don´t because the fighters are not under centralized governmental control.

[Coyote]

But all this forgets that in the event that terrorists attack Israeli civilians, the Israeli government has to do *something* in response. Any government that lets its citizens get murdered with no response at all has no legitimacy in the eyes of its people.

If every Israeli coiunter attack "guarantees yet another Palestinian reprisal", what do we honestly think would happen if Israeli demonstrates that it intends to sit there and do nothing instead?

I recognize that Israel has the monopoly on strength in the region... but the Palestinians have the monopoly on initiative.

And both sides have to be willing to forge ahead and keep trying. In both populations there are people who will work against peace to fulfill their own objectives. War favors certain people... the type of people who wither in peace. The process cannot be held hostage by any random looney with a grudge.

But the Palestinians have to be responsible for their people as well. Note, I am not saying "it is all their fault", I am saying that they have an equal responsibility to reign in their freaks.

If the Israelis have all the power, all the initiative, and all the discipline, and the Palestinians have absolutely no means whatsoever to control their lives and people, then by that logic they don't deserve their own state.

If they can arrange and manage an election, then they can find the means to reasonably control their militants.

[tharkûn]

And every time, Sharon takes the bait and validates the radicals by initiating reprisals that inevitably kill women & kids, creating a few new fanatical, grief-stricken Hamas loyalists who will do ANYthing to win, just like Sharon.

Sharon didn't retaliate after several bombings once, it did jack didly squat. Sharon doesn't want to "win", he's frigging unilaterally pulling out of Gaza. The reason he retaliates is because if he doesn't he loses the hawk electorate, his leadership of Likud, and the government topples. Most likely the replacement government will be more hawkish and less conciliatory.

either that, or israel could stop continuing the cycle. might work better since, you know, they have stuff like controll over their army, unlike the palestinians who don´t because the fighters are not under centralized governmental control.

However they don't control the government. If Sharon bucks the hawkish right of the government, then watch the Knesset dissolve, new elections get called, and haystack burning Bibi runs the government.

In any event there have been instances where Israel didn't retaliate ... jack didly squat came of it.

The way to break the cycle is not to demand that nothing be done in response to crazies trying for veto, but to have prescribed guidelines directing retaliation.

[Chmee]

But all this forgets that in the event that terrorists attack Israeli civilians, the Israeli government has to do *something* in response. Any government that lets its citizens get murdered with no response at all has no legitimacy in the eyes of its people.

If every Israeli coiunter attack "guarantees yet another Palestinian reprisal", what do we honestly think would happen if Israeli demonstrates that it intends to sit there and do nothing instead?

I recognize that Israel has the monopoly on strength in the region... but the Palestinians have the monopoly on initiative.

And both sides have to be willing to forge ahead and keep trying. In both populations there are people who will work against peace to fulfill their own objectives. War favors certain people... the type of people who wither in peace. The process cannot be held hostage by any random looney with a grudge.

But the Palestinians have to be responsible for their people as well. Note, I am not saying "it is all their fault", I am saying that they have an equal responsibility to reign in their freaks.

If the Israelis have all the power, all the initiative, and all the discipline, and the Palestinians have absolutely no means whatsoever to control their lives and people, then by that logic they don't deserve their own state.

If they can arrange and manage an election, then they can find the means to reasonably control their militants.

The 'something' Israel does in response should not be abandoning the process to get to a point where they end the root causes of the violence. As long as they're an occupying power, they're going to face armed resistance ... as long as there is an armed resistance, there will be murderous radicals within that resistance, whether it's Frenchman blowing up Germans, Mujahadeen blowing up Russians, or Palestinians blowing up Israelis.

There's no trust on either side, and I can't blame either side for that, neither leadership has been particularly trustworthy.

[tharkûn]

The 'something' Israel does in response should not be abandoning the process to get to a point where they end the root causes of the violence. As long as they're an occupying power, they're going to face armed resistance ... as long as there is an armed resistance, there will be murderous radicals within that resistance, whether it's Frenchman blowing up Germans, Mujahadeen blowing up Russians, or Palestinians blowing up Israelis.

Or if it's Japanese blowing up Americans, Germans blowing up Americans, or the whole frikking Warsaw Pact blowing up Soviets.

Yes there will always be murderous radicals here; as there were before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Do remember that anti-Israeli terrorism long predates 1967 (remember when Fatah and the PLO were founded) and anti-Jewish terrorism long predates the foundation of Israel (bloody passover). Something has to be done about the militants, and yes Sharon's response in this particular instance sucks donkey balls, but merely calling it a consequence of being an occupying power is BS.

[Chmee]

The 'something' Israel does in response should not be abandoning the process to get to a point where they end the root causes of the violence. As long as they're an occupying power, they're going to face armed resistance ... as long as there is an armed resistance, there will be murderous radicals within that resistance, whether it's Frenchman blowing up Germans, Mujahadeen blowing up Russians, or Palestinians blowing up Israelis.

Or if it's Japanese blowing up Americans, Germans blowing up Americans, or the whole frikking Warsaw Pact blowing up Soviets.

Yes there will always be murderous radicals here; as there were before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Do remember that anti-Israeli terrorism long predates 1967 (remember when Fatah and the PLO were founded) and anti-Jewish terrorism long predates the foundation of Israel (bloody passover). Something has to be done about the militants, and yes Sharon's response in this particular instance sucks donkey balls, but merely calling it a consequence of being an occupying power is BS.

America wasn't showing any signs of permanently annexing Japan or Germany. And yes, anti-Israeli terrorism predates '67 ... so does Israeli seizure of territories ... the whole State of Israel was founded at the point of a gun to pre-empt a UN process that would have precluded them from taking sovereign control of Jerusalem. There are no innocents in this process, just victims, and it's not going to be solved by trying to prove how one side is the bad guys and one side is the angels, it's only going to be sovled by BOTH sides deciding that the way they've been doing things just ain't getting it done.

Personally, I don't see it happening. As I said, I think both sides lack the political leadership and will to make peace happen, despite the wishes of the majority of their citizens. It's a damn shame and a tragedy, but that's history for you.

[Coyote]

As long as they're an occupying power, they're going to face armed resistance...

To an extent, yes, but the nature of that resistance must be examined. Remember, the French Resistance against the Germans had as a goal the removal of German soldiers from France. Their goal was not the annihilation of the German race.

There are many-- but not all-- of the militants in the Palestinian side that have openly declared that their intent/desire/goal is indeed the elimination of the entire Israeli population.

Now, whether you find this "understandable" or not, it brings a very desperate, do-or-die dynamic to the equation that did not exist in the French Resistance against the Germans model. The Germans were under no existential threat from the French fighters.

For Israel to do nothing whatsoever in the face of Palestinian militant attacks is to invite further attacks. Now logically the militants will not be able to realistically overcome Israel, that does not mean that the civilians of Israel should just casually accept being slaughtered.

The Israeli government was indeed open to peace, or at least willing to give Abu Mazen a chance. If fault for this lies anywhere, I'd recommend the handful of militant fucktarts that have spoiled it for their own people as surely as for the Israelis.

[Chmee]

As long as they're an occupying power, they're going to face armed resistance...

To an extent, yes, but the nature of that resistance must be examined. Remember, the French Resistance against the Germans had as a goal the removal of German soldiers from France. Their goal was not the annihilation of the German race.

Go back and look at what the French Resistance did to French 'collaborators' and tell me the savagery of the most radical Palestinians is something new.

There are many-- but not all-- of the militants in the Palestinian side that have openly declared that their intent/desire/goal is indeed the elimination of the entire Israeli population.

Now, whether you find this "understandable" or not, it brings a very desperate, do-or-die dynamic to the equation that did not exist in the French Resistance against the Germans model. The Germans were under no existential threat from the French fighters.

And on the other side, there are radical Zionists who want Israel's borders to encompass a country of, pardon the pun, 'Biblical' proportions. They want the extermination of Palestine as an idea. If you let the process be driven by the extremists on both sides, you're locked into perpetual reprisal atrocities until nobody is left.

For Israel to do nothing whatsoever in the face of Palestinian militant attacks is to invite further attacks. Now logically the militants will not be able to realistically overcome Israel, that does not mean that the civilians of Israel should just casually accept being slaughtered.

The Israeli government was indeed open to peace, or at least willing to give Abu Mazen a chance. If fault for this lies anywhere, I'd recommend the handful of militant fucktarts that have spoiled it for their own people as surely as for the Israelis.

"Doing nothing" and "doing the wrong thing" are two different things. I don't want the State of Israel to do nothing, but they're not doing enough of the right things. They let all those settlers turn them into an occupying power, they let all those settlers put the army into a position of killing Palestinian women and kids for havintg the temerity to fight back .... both sides are being ruined by their militant fucktards, and you can't ask the OTHER side to reign them in.

[Coyote]

Go back and look at what the French Resistance did to French 'collaborators' and tell me the savagery of the most radical Palestinians is something new.

The savagery of the French or the Palestinians has nothing whatsoever to do with my point. My point was the ultimate goal of the two groups. Many Palestinian militants want to eliminate all Israelis, not merely drive them out of a certain area, which was the point of the French vs. Germans.

And on the other side, there are radical Zionists who want Israel's borders to encompass a country of, pardon the pun, 'Biblical' proportions. They want the extermination of Palestine as an idea. If you let the process be driven by the extremists on both sides, you're locked into perpetual reprisal atrocities until nobody is left.

Did I deny that there are radical Zionists that want to expand the borders? Of course there are, I never claimed otherwise. Your comment about the cycle of atrocity is so obvious and well-established that I wonder why you bother with it.

And there is a difference bwteen exterminating Palestine 'as an idea', ie, the concept of a free state, it is not the same as exterminating the ethnic group. Many of the radical Zionists feel that since Jordan is 65% Palestinian, then that should be considered "Palestine" and the Arabs in Judea, Samarria, and Gaza should simply move there.

In other words, U-Hauls, not Kalashnikovs. I'm not saying I agree with this, it is very unrealistic, but it is different from wanting to push them into the sea, for example.

"Doing nothing" and "doing the wrong thing" are two different things. I don't want the State of Israel to do nothing, but they're not doing enough of the right things. They let all those settlers turn them into an occupying power, they let all those settlers put the army into a position of killing Palestinian women and kids for havintg the temerity to fight back .... both sides are being ruined by their militant fucktards, and you can't ask the OTHER side to reign them in.

Actually, yes I can. I can ask the other side to reel in their shitbags as we reel in ours. If the thought of armed men attacking and killing Palestinian women and children is an atrocity, so then is the act of armed men attacking and killing Israeli women and children, and then you criticize Israel for having the temerity of fighting back... see how easy it is to jump into the cycle?

Remember, at the beginning of this exchange, I never said "it was all the Palestinians fault" and I've always said that both sides have to take responsibility. Israel can re-take the initiative, which it lost after 1967, by pulling out of the Territories. They are doing this in Gaza. We'll see how this continues. I hope it does, indeed, continue.

It is established that both sides have to work at it.

[Vympel]

When last I looked guys, the Israel/Palestine moratorium was still in effect, right?