Need Info

[Jadeite]

Ok, on Wednesday im going to get into a debate with a fundie and need ammo to use against him. A little backstory: I just started going 2 a youth group thing with my friends, and Me and Andrew ran into a couple fundies there on Sunday. I asked them if they took the bible completely literally, and they answered yes. Could someone find me what passage in the bible talks about pi=3. any other stuff would be useful.

[Larz]

Ask them about why God ignored the rest of the world and only blessed Abrahams tribe with knowledge of him during the age of christ and before. Ask them why must everyone else burn in hell because they were never presented the opprotunity to know god. If they say (and they probably will) that they did see God's work and thus could know him, tell them that they all did see God's work, and thats why they have religons with Bible equivalent and ask them about that. Hope that arguement train that I'm using right now helps.

[weemadando]

One of my personal favourites relates to bibilical mythology re: Behemoth and Leviathan.

Get them to explain those, then whack them with fossil evidence etc.

[Ghost Rider]

hell you could actually bring up evolution in general and explain why there is so much damning evidence against all of creation in six days.

I wonder how bad it would get.

[Frank Hipper]

The pi=3 reference is in 1Kings 7:23. Also ask them where you can find the cockatrice mentioned in Isaiah 11:8, it's hatched from a cock's egg (cocks are roosters, i.e. male) can kill with a glance. Ask how Jonah lived in a whale's belly for three days without being digested. 1 Corinthians 15:36 says dead seeds germinate. Dead seeds do not germinate, live ones do. There are always the flat earth, non-moving sun and the moon generating it's own light. And if they try the "but anything is possible with god" excuse, invite them to drink poison and survive through faith the way the bible tells them to.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Start with scientific innerancies (The flood, and how it's inconsistent iwth the fossil record and where the water came from). If he brings up God, then say that it's no different from saying "it's magic".

[Spoonist]

No no no people.

Wrong approach. Fundies will just go for the scapegoats if you take such an angle.
Example:
How could 8 people tend all animals on the arch?
-fundie response- God helped them.


Instead, what you should go for is the fundies own belief and extrapolate.
Example:
-If you really believe that the bible is literal how come that you don't obey the covenant between God and man?
-fundie response - I do obey god
-No you do not obey the laws of the covenant as is described in leviticus.
Leviticus 12
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
6 " 'When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. 7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.
Leviticus 19
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Leviticus 20
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "
Leviticus 27
30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD ; it is holy to the LORD . 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.

Usually this is where fundies say that JC abolished the laws and that only jews need to follow the laws.


(to be continued)

[kheegster]

No no no people.

Wrong approach. Fundies will just go for the scapegoats if you take such an angle.
Example:
How could 8 people tend all animals on the arch?
-fundie response- God helped them.


Instead, what you should go for is the fundies own belief and extrapolate.
Example:
-If you really believe that the bible is literal how come that you don't obey the covenant between God and man?
-fundie response - I do obey god
-No you do not obey the laws of the covenant as is described in leviticus.
Leviticus 12
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
6 " 'When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. 7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.
Leviticus 19
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Leviticus 20
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "
Leviticus 27
30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD ; it is holy to the LORD . 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.

Usually this is where fundies say that JC abolished the laws and that only jews need to follow the laws.


(to be continued)

...at which point you say "In that case you don't follow the Bible literally after all, do you". Then seat back and watch their heads explode.

KG

[Darth Wong]

Tell him that he can prove the Bible to you by taking the Mark 16:18 challenge. Drink lethal poison without injury, just like Jesus said all true believers can do.

[Wicked Pilot]

Tell him that he can prove the Bible to you by taking the Mark 16:18 challenge. Drink lethal poison without injury, just like Jesus said all true believers can do.

Make sure to bring some poison with you just in case. You can get Methanol from the gorcery store, it will do the trick.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Try to get them to explain why in the bible in several chapters of the OT that god teaches mankind to conflicting views on vengance and justice:

Exodus 21:23-25 -- If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus 24:19-20 -- Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered.

Deuteronomy 19:21 -- Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Matthew 5:21-22 -- You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder"; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgement." But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:38-41 -- You have heard it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.

Luke 6:27, 37 -- Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.... Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

[Lord_Xerxes]

More contradictions of that as well:

Ezekiel 33:11 -- As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways.

Matthew 18:21-22 -- Then Peter came and said to him, "Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times."

[Lord_Xerxes]

These are also some gems. The completely contradict Jesus' teachings of peace to mankind:

The Gospel According To Luke

-- 12:51-2 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."

-- 14:26 "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

-- 19:27 "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."


The Gospel According To Matthew

-- 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."

-- 10:35-6 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

-- 15:4 Jesus reiterates the commandment to kill children for cursing their parents: "For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say,... [snip] ... Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." (Jesus, reinforcing God's commandment from Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, and particularly Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which detail the requirement that parents bring stubborn boys to the city gates to be executed by stoning. Here, Jesus criticizes the humanitarian efforts of the Pharisees, who struggled for centuries to find ways to soften the impact of this brutal commandment, and to make it virtually unenforceable.)

The Gospel According To John

-- 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (This passage, a quote from Jesus, was used for centuries to justify burning our predecessors at the stake for refusing to believe.)

These last few from http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/nbwposath.htm[/url]

[Lord_Xerxes]

Exodus 20:13 - "You shall not murder," or more commonly "Thou shalt not kill."
However,

I Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

Luke 6:31 - "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
However,

Isaiah 13:15 - "Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished."


Leviticus 19:18 - "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself."
However,

Psalms 137:8 - "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us—he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Colossians 3:19 - "Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them."
However,

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 - "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

These comparisions came from here: http://home.epix.net/~jlferri/expbib.html from a reverend who advises "I've been reminded that there are passages in the Bible that reverse the previous two about private prayer, and that condone public prayer. Apparently, there are exceptions to almost every passage and command in the Bible. It can be described as a most "exceptional" book. But do read the Bible. Except, take what you read not with a grain of salt, but with the whole shaker. "

[Spoonist]

Try to get them to explain why in the bible in several chapters of the OT that god teaches mankind to conflicting views on vengance and justice:

Exodus 21:23-25 -- If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus 24:19-20 -- Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered.

Deuteronomy 19:21 -- Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Matthew 5:21-22 -- You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder"; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgement." But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:38-41 -- You have heard it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.

Luke 6:27, 37 -- Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.... Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

For a christian fundie that is simple to respond to:
The new testament takes presedence over the old.
Where the new testament contradicts the old testament you should go with the words of JC.

[Darth Servo]

Tell him that he can prove the Bible to you by taking the Mark 16:18 challenge. Drink lethal poison without injury, just like Jesus said all true believers can do.

They'll just respond that you're asking for a sign.

[Spoonist]

(continued)

Usually this is where fundies say that JC abolished the laws and that only jews need to follow the laws.

That's when you point to this:

Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then ask why, if he believes the new testament to be literally true, he doesn't follow the words of JC:

Matthew 19
The Rich Young Man

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[4] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[5] "
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

No ogling and no masturbation:´

Matthew 5
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[5] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Do you have a savings account in a bank?

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Usually things like the ones above generates enough protests so that you can say:
You show by deeds and words that you do not believe the bible is true and all your objections comes from the devil.

Matthew 5
34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

[Lord_Xerxes]

(continued)

Usually this is where fundies say that JC abolished the laws and that only jews need to follow the laws.

Spoon, that second group was from the NT. And to my understanding, is all or mostly all Jesus' own words.

And if they're taking the whole thing literrally anyway, that point is null and voided by their own stupidity.

[Spoonist]

->Lord_Xerxes
Uhm, did you just miss my whole point entirely?

If they claim that JC abolished the laws then you hit them with NT and JC.

[Darth Wong]

Tell him that he can prove the Bible to you by taking the Mark 16:18 challenge. Drink lethal poison without injury, just like Jesus said all true believers can do.

They'll just respond that you're asking for a sign.

Of course, except that I call it "evidence". How silly of me to ask for evidence ...

[Lord_Xerxes]

Spoon, I got you. I was just responding to your comment about the OT. Not all of what I'd thrown up was OT.

But I understand what you're point was that their arguement is null became of what you quoted. And I stated that it's also null because they literally believe the whole book.

[NecronLord]

Tell him that he can prove the Bible to you by taking the Mark 16:18 challenge. Drink lethal poison without injury, just like Jesus said all true believers can do.

They'll just respond that you're asking for a sign.

Of course, except that I call it "evidence". How silly of me to ask for evidence ...

[yoda]Lost his evidence Master Wong has. How embarrasing, How embarrasing. *ears down, head shake*. [...] Younglings. Prehaps help Master Wong discover the problem. * Holo display of bible.* If the assertion is stupid, what is the person who believes it?

[youngling] A moron?

[yoda] yes....