Moff=Darth?

[Chardok]

I've always been somewhat cornfusified by this. In ANH, Grand Moff Tarkin acts as if he outranks Vader case in point:

Tarkin: Enough of this! Vader, Release him!
Vader: As you wish.

Double-yoo-tee-eff?!

How about:

Tarkin: Enough of this! Vader, release him!
Vader: ...
Tarkin: *GAK* ugh....ack!! USK!! ERRK.....uggghhh

Does Moff>Darth?! Perhaps this is something I should already know, or something that is fundamentally understood, but it escapes me, especially given that when Vader visits el-Death Star-o Numero dos, He's giving Mof Jerjerrod what for (Without actually giving him what for. On this subject, I always got the feeling Vader reaaaaaaaally doesn't like Moffs, given his interaction with Tarkin and Jerjerrod. Jerjerrod especially, indeed when he board the DSII, He seems like a kid skipping off the shuttle going "neener neener neeeener, you're in trouuuuuuuuuuble!")

Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader, this is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence -
Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
Moff Jerjerrod: I assure you, Lord Vader. My men are working as fast as they can.
Darth Vader: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
Moff Jerjerrod: I tell you, this station will be operational as planned.
Darth Vader: The emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
Moff Jerjerrod: But, he asks the impossible. I need more men!
Darth Vader: Then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives.
Moff Jerjerrod: The Emperor's coming here?
Darth Vader: That is correct, Commander. And, he is most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.
Moff Jerjerrod: We shall double our efforts!
Darth Vader: I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am.

Commander? Let's get rid of the formalities and translate this into Chokidai (the language of the Sarnak, builders of Chardok.)

Moff Jerjerrod: Oh-Emm-eff-gee! Double-yoo-tee-eff?!
Darth Vader: You're sooooo fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: We're good, man.
Darth Vader: No, you're not. But since you're so stupid. I'm going to help your dumbass out.
Moff Jerjerrod: Look, I said we'll get it done.
Darth Vader: Riiiiight. Fine, you do it. but the emporer thinks you're fucking it up.
Moff Jerjerrod: I need more men!
Darth Vader: I'm sure he can get you some more men. Ask him.
Moff Jerjerrod: The Emperor's coming here?
Darth Vader: Yup. That's why I said you're fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: Awww shit, son! BACK TO WORK, ASSHOLES!
Darth Vader: AAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! ROFL!

[VT-16]

Tarkin was a Grand Moff while Jerjerrod was just a regular Moff.

Vader, however, is almost like an "independent" agent outside of the normal Imperial Military, obeying the Emperor and whichever officer the Emperor orders him to obey.

That reminds me, Vader vs. the Imperial Advisors, which has higher rank?

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Moff Jerjerrod: Oh-Emm-eff-gee! Double-yoo-tee-eff?!
Darth Vader: You're sooooo fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: We're good, man.
Darth Vader: No, you're not. But since you're so stupid. I'm going to help your dumbass out.
Moff Jerjerrod: Look, I said we'll get it done.
Darth Vader: Riiiiight. Fine, you do it. but the emporer thinks you're fucking it up.
Moff Jerjerrod: I need more men!
Darth Vader: I'm sure he can get you some more men. Ask him.
Moff Jerjerrod: The Emperor's coming here?
Darth Vader: Yup. That's why I said you're fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: Awww shit, son! BACK TO WORK, ASSHOLES!
Darth Vader: AAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! ROFL!

That made my day.

But on the serious side, Vader, much like the Emperor's Hands, is not exactly part of the Imperial Hierarchy. In the Tarking case, the Emperor most likely told him that he had to be Tarkin's bitch for awhile duriong this project.
While on the DSII, he was probably given the opportunity to bitchslap Jerjerrod and be mean.

[Dillon]

Someone's conclusion here that I rather liked (I think it was DW's) was that Vader was sort of there to make sure Tarkin couldn't just decide to take the DS and made a bid for power. I'm guessing had Tarkin tried, Vader would have made him his bitch.

[Crown]

Emperor > Vader

The Emperor would have told him to heed Tarkin, or perhaps Vader just didn't feel like strangeling the guy and let him go, *shrugs*

[Ghost Rider]

Pretty much from most observations it's what observer_2000 and Crown have said. The Emperor may have told Vader to defer to Tarkin for this affair, or Vader just simply allowed the respect he had for the man to dictate his wishes, but from most accounts vader was there as the personal envoy of the Emperor, and should Tarkin get any cute ideas. The Emperor gets a new trophy for the wall.

[PainRack]

Vader at that point of time was a "civilian" observer attached to the Death Star Project, and thus under Grand Moff Tarkin command.

[Sharp-kun]

Didn't Lucas say at some point that this was part of the fall of Vader? He wanted power, and instead ended up no better than the moffs?

[Rogue 9]

Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader, this is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence -
Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
Moff Jerjerrod: I assure you, Lord Vader. My men are working as fast as they can.
Darth Vader: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
Moff Jerjerrod: I tell you, this station will be operational as planned.
Darth Vader: The emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
Moff Jerjerrod: But, he asks the impossible. I need more men!
Darth Vader: Then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives.
Moff Jerjerrod: The Emperor's coming here?
Darth Vader: That is correct, Commander. And, he is most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.
Moff Jerjerrod: We shall double our efforts!
Darth Vader: I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am.

Commander? Let's get rid of the formalities and translate this into Chokidai (the language of the Sarnak, builders of Chardok.)

Moff Jerjerrod: Oh-Emm-eff-gee! Double-yoo-tee-eff?!
Darth Vader: You're sooooo fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: We're good, man.
Darth Vader: No, you're not. But since you're so stupid. I'm going to help your dumbass out.
Moff Jerjerrod: Look, I said we'll get it done.
Darth Vader: Riiiiight. Fine, you do it. but the emporer thinks you're fucking it up.
Moff Jerjerrod: I need more men!
Darth Vader: I'm sure he can get you some more men. Ask him.
Moff Jerjerrod: The Emperor's coming here?
Darth Vader: Yup. That's why I said you're fucked.
Moff Jerjerrod: Awww shit, son! BACK TO WORK, ASSHOLES!
Darth Vader: AAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! ROFL!

Hehehehehehe. Hold on a sec. *Digs through Newgrounds*

[Rogue 9]

The Emperor is coming here?

Yeah. An' he gonna put a cap in yo ass.

[NecronLord]

Didn't Lucas say at some point that this was part of the fall of Vader? He wanted power, and instead ended up no better than the moffs?

Yeah, on the OT DVDs. Of course, this is his unhinged modern day ranting and not the author's intent, and it's best to just ignore it.

[Chardok]

Didn't Lucas say at some point that this was part of the fall of Vader? He wanted power, and instead ended up no better than the moffs?

Yeah, on the OT DVDs. Of course, this is his unhinged modern day ranting and not the author's intent, and it's best to just ignore it.

Well said, NL. Wonder what the chances are of GL shutting the fuck up and letting someone else better qualified finish things up (Yeah, late in the game now, I know...but...)

[Enforcer Talen]

my understanding was that the regular chain of command was iffy about a civilian sorceror running things, and he had to prove himself - hence, movie 4, hes an advisor, 5, he has a fleet of 5 ships, and 6, hes scaring jerjerrod.

[Meest]

Well even if the Senate had no real power in Ep4 the fact it was still there brings up questions to when Palps truely had total control. Could've been 20 year struggle to get the galaxy in line. Until the Senate was disbanded it seems Vader wasn't a true commander (though seemed to be above the average General/Admiral). Once the Senate was gone and all the politics out of the way seemed to boost Vader into official second to Palps mode. Maybe it was still risky to put Vader into official chain of command with the Senate still around.

Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in those 20 years after ROTS.

[Sharp-kun]

Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in those 20 years after ROTS.

Excitement, adventure and really wild things.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dark Lord of the Sith has no formal responsibilities or place in the operational or administrative chain-of-command within the Imperial State. Lord Vader had no office or formal power prior to the Battle of Yavin. As Palpatine's envoy aboard Tarkin's battle station, he was subordinate to Tarkin. Any power Vader had was implied political clout, by virtue of his closeness to Palpatine and his personal talent in the Force, but nothing else.

After the Battle of Yavin Lord Vader has risen beyond a mere errend boy and personal watchdog for Palpatine. He appears to have been elevated to the Supreme Commander of the Imperial armed forces. As such he outranks Commander Moff Jerjerrod.

Moff appears to be a personal dignity, not an office. So it is not necessarily appropriate to say Moff outranks anything else, but Tarkin as an Oversectorial Governor and personal commander of the Death Star did outrank Vader.

[Cabwi Desco]

I always figured it stemmed from naval tradition. It was tarkins command this unless vader wanted to he was under command of the Grand Moff, had he wanted to tarkin wouldve been his bitch.
Then again he could just have respect for tarkin which goes with the 'as you wish' statement.

another thing. Didnt you notice the severe difference between GM tarkin and the other GMs??

Lastly on the thought of vaders influence expanding. hes been disaplining imperial officers since IIRC the Han Solo trillogy (adm Greelanx, sp.)

[Imperial Overlord]

Tarkin calls Vader "old friend." They seem to have a fairly good relationship. IMHO Tarkin is using his personal influence, not some clearly defined authority, to get Vader to back down.

I always though that scene should be translated as follows

(Vader choking some shmuck who's dissing him and the Force.)
Tarkin: Vader, you've made your point. Chill.
Vader: (shrugs) Whatever. (Lets gnat live).

[Lord Zentei]

Leia: "Grand Moff Tarkin. I should have expected to find you here, holding Vader's Leash."

No question who outranked who.

Dark Lord of the Sith has no formal responsibilities or place in the operational or administrative chain-of-command within the Imperial State. Lord Vader had no office or formal power prior to the Battle of Yavin. As Palpatine's envoy aboard Tarkin's battle station, he was subordinate to Tarkin. Any power Vader had was implied political clout, by virtue of his closeness to Palpatine and his personal talent in the Force, but nothing else.

Note also how the black garbed Commanders snapped at him during the early scenes in ANH: "She'll die before she tells you anything!" Not something you would expect if he outranked them, eh? And if they had pulled that kind of shit in Episodes V and VI ... ouchies.

The idea that it was the desire for power that was a part of the fall of Vader isn't too asinine IMO. After all the emperor knew there was some good left in him: this may have been his way of getting him to slip further into the Dark side, keep giving him some power, but always increase his desire more than his gains. Also, the gradual gain in power may have begun with political power ("to make things right"), while he was still Anakin.

[Imperial Overlord]

Good points Zentai, but if Vader was there as Palpatine's watch dog then they don't necessarily know how powerful Vader is. Tarkin, who may have an incling that Vader will kill him if he move against Palpatine, treats Vader with respect. It's still Tarkin's show, but Vader is there to step in and take over if Tarkin fucks things up or overreaches himself.

[VT-16]

Note also how the black garbed Commanders snapped at him during the early scenes in ANH: "She'll die before she tells you anything!" Not something you would expect if he outranked them, eh? And if they had pulled that kind of shit in Episodes V and VI ... ouchies.

Someone noted that the guy in question was a lower ranking officer (a lieutenant or something, either way someone who normally wouldn´t be in a position to talk to ANYBODY that way) and that the reason Vader let it go, was because he´s easier on guys who do their job and do it well. Besides, they were on the Devastator at the time, Vader´s flagship. He could have done anything he liked, if he felt offended. Speaks alot for that particular officer if you ask me.

While people like Ozzel bungled up one time too many and got the shaft, and Piett had a few close calls due to slight incompetence.

[Isolder74]

The way I see it is that Vader is outranked militarily and as an advisor to the emperor. When Tarkin dies that give Vader the chance he needs to rise to the top. There are others that are in the Emperor's inner cirlce like Xisor for instance. Vaderdoes appear to have to give in to Tarkin as long as Tarkin is being loyal to the Emperor. Until then Vader has to take orders from Tarkin. Note that on the Devestator he is indeed the top dog so he does have some military ranking.

[Lord Zentei]

Good points Zentai, but if Vader was there as Palpatine's watch dog then they don't necessarily know how powerful Vader is. Tarkin, who may have an incling that Vader will kill him if he move against Palpatine, treats Vader with respect. It's still Tarkin's show, but Vader is there to step in and take over if Tarkin fucks things up or overreaches himself.

True. As for the other officers, he is still a civilian though and officially a civilian ranks below a private in a chain of command. At that stage he may be a relative unknown in millitary circles, and even with political connections, they may have resented his presence and influence. Imagine a real world political officer in a totalitarian regime among millitary officers (such as the commissar in Hunt for Red October). They may be wary around him, but not knowing his power they may not be 100% cooperative.

<snip> Besides, they were on the Devastator at the time, Vader´s flagship. He could have done anything he liked, if he felt offended. Speaks alot for that particular officer if you ask me.

Point. May have been only recently assigned though (making them suspect "the damn civilian's" capabilities).

<EDITED>

[Howedar]

Leia: "Grand Moff Tarkin. I should have expected to find you here, holding Vader's Leash."

No question who outranked who.

Leia was spewing insults at that point, I'd take anything she said with a grain of salt.

Note also how the black garbed Commanders snapped at him during the early scenes in ANH: "She'll die before she tells you anything!" Not something you would expect if he outranked them, eh? And if they had pulled that kind of shit in Episodes V and VI ... ouchies.

I don't see why. The black-suited dude was speaking his mind, and I don't recall Vader ever stomping on an opinion like that (which is different, of course, from an insult or an action).

As far as I'm concerned Vader was Tarkin's friend and associate and had already made his point. He had no need to press the issue.

[Lord Zentei]

Leia: "Grand Moff Tarkin. I should have expected to find you here, holding Vader's Leash."

No question who outranked who.

Leia was spewing insults at that point, I'd take anything she said with a grain of salt.

It would be a rather stupid insult if she knew Vader was in fact higher ranking. She showed herself to be perfectly capable in a flamewar on other occations and was a high ranking politician to boot.

Note also how the black garbed Commanders snapped at him during the early scenes in ANH: "She'll die before she tells you anything!" Not something you would expect if he outranked them, eh? And if they had pulled that kind of shit in Episodes V and VI ... ouchies.

I don't see why. The black-suited dude was speaking his mind, and I don't recall Vader ever stomping on an opinion like that (which is different, of course, from an insult or an action).

As far as I'm concerned Vader was Tarkin's friend and associate and had already made his point. He had no need to press the issue.

Agreed, but it has nothing to do with the scene I was referring to.