Best theistic argument?
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
Best theistic argument?
Fairly obvious from the title really, what's the best pro theistic argument you've heard?
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
- Lord Zentei
- Space Elf Psyker
- Posts: 8742
- Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
- Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.
What is the "fine tuning" argument?Tzeentch wrote:Probably fine tuning. It's not convincing, but at least it makes you think.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
- Darth Raptor
- Red Mage
- Posts: 5448
- Joined: 2003-12-18 03:39am
- Lord Zentei
- Space Elf Psyker
- Posts: 8742
- Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
- Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.
Occam's Razor kills that one.VT-16 wrote:To me, the only one that comes close to "good", is: "It´s as reasonable to believe he made the universe as it is to believe the universe made itself, so why take any chances?"
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Oh god, yes, I don't know how many arguments I've had that boiled down to that after everything else had been knocked out.VT-16 wrote:To me, the only one that comes close to "good", is: "It´s as reasonable to believe he made the universe as it is to believe the universe made itself, so why take any chances?"
That YEC friend of mine used to pack it in with a misquoted appeal to authority... "The smartest man in the world, Albert Einstein, said 'Why take the chance?'"
To which I replied- "Why take the chance that Christianity is right over a million and one other religions that offer equal amounts of evidence? By that standard, it's playing the spiritual lottery."
(Being as how I didn't know Einstein's actual stance at the time he hit me with it.)
- wolveraptor
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm
they're all good, if you're ignorant enough.
in my experience, though, theistic arguments only work when deep down, the skeptic wants to believe in god, for whatever reason. you know, the whole, "a hole in my heart where god should be, etc."
in my experience, though, theistic arguments only work when deep down, the skeptic wants to believe in god, for whatever reason. you know, the whole, "a hole in my heart where god should be, etc."
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
- Master of Ossus
- Darkest Knight
- Posts: 18213
- Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
- Location: California
It took me a LONG time to understand the flaws in Pascal's Wager. The only one that jumped out at me was the "the chances of God's existence could be zero" one, which struck me as being wholly unsatisfying.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Why didn't I think of that? Well, don't forget to define sin: damn near every worldly pleasure in addition to merely existing (that Adam and Eve shit, what is it? inherited sin?) Anyway, b/c God gave you life, there lies in you sin you imperfect cretinous human filth. Convert or die b/c god knows you jerk off at night.Symmetry wrote:"God will forgive you your sins"
- Lagmonster
- Master Control Program
- Posts: 7719
- Joined: 2002-07-04 09:53am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
I don't think there are any 'good' theistic arguments, but I suppose if you were going for a strongest contender - and this is about as close as they come to 'reasonable' - I would choose the one wherein a group of Christians said they understood that there were the same odds on Sagan's dragon as on God, but that those slim-to-none odds were good enough for them, at least on faith.
At that point, you aren't really talking about logical arguments any more, but it's, well, it's the best they've got.
At that point, you aren't really talking about logical arguments any more, but it's, well, it's the best they've got.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
- Ninja of the North
- Youngling
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 2004-12-17 09:12pm
- Slartibartfast
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6730
- Joined: 2002-09-10 05:35pm
- Location: Where The Sea Meets The Sky
- Contact:
This is my favorite argument:
Stan: "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"
Chef: "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"
Stan: "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"
Chef: "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."
Stan: "I think I understand."
Stan: "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"
Chef: "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"
Stan: "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"
Chef: "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."
Stan: "I think I understand."