something I noticed on ST armor

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-01-18 10:02am

I have noticed on Stormtrooper armor.

first the chest armor has enough room for breast of female soldier if needed.

second the leg parts of the armor are not identical

is there any explenation for these things as they make little sence if Stormtroopers are Clonetroopers.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-18 10:08am

Well, for one thing, Stormtroopers aren't exclusively clones. There's plenty of movie and EU support for the idea. Commander Praji ("Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship, and no transmissions were made") from ANH was a "Stormtrooper officer" as I recall, and he clearly looks nothing like Jango Fett.

In the intervening 20 or so years between ROTS and ANH, I think there's plenty of time for Palpatine to have opened the Stormtrooper ranks to enlistees rather than simply churning out more Clonetroopers.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-01-18 10:17am

McC wrote:Well, for one thing, Stormtroopers aren't exclusively clones. There's plenty of movie and EU support for the idea. Commander Praji ("Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship, and no transmissions were made") from ANH was a "Stormtrooper officer" as I recall, and he clearly looks nothing like Jango Fett.

In the intervening 20 or so years between ROTS and ANH, I think there's plenty of time for Palpatine to have opened the Stormtrooper ranks to enlistees rather than simply churning out more Clonetroopers.

I would think any new types of clones and/or natural born enlistees would similar to Jango Fett (170-190cm tall and male) and this still doesn't explain the leg parts of the armor.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-18 10:24am

Have there ever been any female stormtroopers? I'm genuinely curious.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-18 10:30am

Lord Revan wrote:I would think any new types of clones and/or natural born enlistees would similar to Jango Fett (170-190cm tall and male) and this still doesn't explain the leg parts of the armor.

Obvious examples to the contrary are, again, Praji, and also (from the EU) Kyle Katarn, who was a Stormtrooper-in-training before he quit upon finding about his parents.

As to the varying parts of the armor, it may be a functionality thing. I have a feeling it's explained in the VD (which is at home, and I'm at work, so I can't look it up), but I'm not sure why differing leg plates matter, so long as the difference is consistent across stormtroopers.

Stofsk wrote:Have there ever been any female stormtroopers? I'm genuinely curious.

+http://www.rebelscum.com/halloween/h11a.jpg
+http://www.rebelscum.com/halloween/h11b.jpg

Seriously, though, I don't know. I doubt it, given that Imperial military chauvinism is often spoken about.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-01-18 10:33am

There was the one penny arcade strip with female stormies...

I was reading an issue of SW Empire where it had a regiment of mixed clones/recruits. I think the quote was "Was he a recruit, or just another clone" something along those lines.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-01-18 11:48am

McC wrote:Well, for one thing, Stormtroopers aren't exclusively clones. There's plenty of movie and EU support for the idea.

I am curious, what movie evidence supports that idea?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-01-18 11:51am

Steven Snyder wrote:
McC wrote:Well, for one thing, Stormtroopers aren't exclusively clones. There's plenty of movie and EU support for the idea.
I am curious, what movie evidence supports that idea?

Stormtroopers have obviously different body types, including different heights and such. That could either be interpreted as being recruits mixed in, or of several different sources for the clones serving in a single unit.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-18 12:00pm

Steven Snyder wrote:I am curious, what movie evidence supports that idea?

Aside from what Ossus said, also the Praji example.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-01-18 12:11pm

One knee has a much higher shin guard than the other. This is so that they can fire from a knelt position. Obviously, they are all trained to kneel with that foot in front.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-01-18 12:24pm

Master of Ossus wrote: Stormtroopers have obviously different body types, including different heights and such. That could either be interpreted as being recruits mixed in, or of several different sources for the clones serving in a single unit.

So based on just movie evidence, we seem to have three possibilities:
A. There are some non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, but only one line of clones

B. There are some non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, and multiple clone lines.

C. There are no non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, but the Stormtroopers are from multiple clone lines.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-18 12:29pm

Steven Snyder wrote:So based on just movie evidence, we seem to have three possibilities:
A. There are some non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, but only one line of clones

B. There are some non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, and multiple clone lines.

C. There are no non-clone recruits in the Stormtrooper service, but the Stormtroopers are from multiple clone lines.

Yeah, basically. Praji could always be from a non-Jango line, I suppose.

Kyle Katarn is harder to rationalize, though. He had parents and was specifically a young adult Stormtrooper recruit. He's also a Force-wielder, which I doubt you're going to find in an Imperial-manufactured clone.

I think B is the best bet, since it fits all of the facts and helps justify the sheer number of Stormtrooper the Empire seems to field by ANH.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-01-18 01:00pm

I'd go with A.

I think it was mentioned in the manual to the PC RTS Force Commander (which is C-level canon, mind you) that there are honorary stormtroopers. Perhaps regular army/naval troopers that have distinguished themselves in combat? Perhaps these kinds of inclusions that has been mentioned here can explained that some armor are custom built?

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-01-18 01:10pm

McC wrote: I think B is the best bet, since it fits all of the facts and helps justify the sheer number of Stormtrooper the Empire seems to field by ANH.

So the Empire can manufacture tens of thousands of Star Destroyers in a 20-year timeframe, but can't breed an army of clones? I find your lack of faith disturbing.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-18 01:22pm

*shrug* Clones take a finite amount of time to grow and teach. The more clones you want to build, the more facilities you need, and each clone will still take 10 years.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-01-18 02:24pm

McC wrote:*shrug* Clones take a finite amount of time to grow and teach. The more clones you want to build, the more facilities you need, and each clone will still take 10 years.

No, it was mentioned in a Timothy Zahn short story, Hero of Cartao, that Spaarti cloning cylinders would:

Hero of Cartao wrote:These [the Spaarti cloning cylinders] should be able to turn out clones in a tenth of the time the Kaminoans needed to do the job.

So, the time has been reduced from ten years to a single year. Of course this is EU, but it's C-level.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-01-18 02:36pm

Where does he fluff material included with computer games stand? Because in The Stele Chronicles (or however you spell it), a novella that was included with Tie Fighter, the main character's best friend enlists in the Stormtrooper service, and he's definitely not a clone, being native to a planet that was outside Imperial control until an IDS showed up in orbit one afternoon.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-01-18 03:57pm

I will not even discuss the *Spartii Cloning Cylinders*...

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-01-18 04:02pm

Steven Snyder wrote:I will not even discuss the *Spartii Cloning Cylinders*...

And why not? Care to enlighten me? "Hero of Cartao" is a rather recent short story and takes place during the Clone Wars.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-01-18 04:41pm

I was under the impression (perhaps baselessly) that the officers in the Stormtrooper Corps were recruits and the Privates and NCOs were Clones of several "breeds."

This from Domus Publica:

Send in the Clones. The Dark Empire Sourcebook (West End Games, 1993) describes cloning as "a science of infamy and horror to most citizens of the galaxy" and even explicitly states that cloning is a "long-banned technology." Nevertheless, the Imperial Marines (i.e., the stormtroopers) are predominantly clones, but the majority of the galaxy's population – including the rebel Alliance – appeared to be ignorant of this fact. In "Pax Empirica – The Wookiee Annihilation" (Prima, 2001), a single template of "GeNode" is said to account for not less than 40 percent of all troopers in the Imperial Marines, and the story mentions at least three other templates (one of which had been discontinued by the time of the story). In The Last Command (Bantam, 1993), Pash Cracken tellingly draws a comparison between Grand Admiral Thrawn's cloned Naval Aviators and the Empire's ubiquitous stormtroopers. Nevertheless, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and even Mara Jade (a former Emperor's Hand) were shocked and outraged by the discovery of Thrawn's reintroduction of clone warfare in Dark Force Rising (Bantam, 1992) and The Last Command.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-01-18 04:50pm

As to the second question about the leg armor. I assume it has to do with kneeling. One knee pad seems more suited for kneeling than the other.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-01-18 04:58pm

The "Official" explanation, which unfortunately was made by Pablo Hidalgo, so take it as you like, is that there are multiple clone stocks, resulting in the multiple body shapes, heights, and voices of clones, as well as voluntary joiners and conscripts found suitable.

It is further explained that as the Empire grew, those who were chosen for clone stock material were increasingly chosen based on political connections-- say, a Moff's nephew, or something like that-- and not necessarily combat prowess. Therefore, some Stormies were lousy shots.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-01-18 05:06pm

Coyote wrote:The "Official" explanation, which unfortunately was made by Pablo Hidalgo, so take it as you like, is that there are multiple clone stocks, resulting in the multiple body shapes, heights, and voices of clones, as well as voluntary joiners and conscripts found suitable.

Personally, I think the explanation I thought up is a little better than this...Doesn't it jusr make more sense that the officers would be recruits while the Troopers and NCOs were Clones (granted, clones from several sources)?

Coyote wrote:It is further explained that as the Empire grew, those who were chosen for clone stock material were increasingly chosen based on political connections-- say, a Moff's nephew, or something like that-- and not necessarily combat prowess. Therefore, some Stormies were lousy shots.

That's just a rediculously sad and classic Pablo Hidalgo dumbass attempt at a retcon.

The Elite Stormtroopers were chosen for political reasons rather than reasons relating to military prowess? That dumbfuck has no buisness being in an influential position at LFL.

Why not use the obvious answer to the apparent poor Stormtrooper aiming ability: In the instances where they shoot poorly, they are under orders to "herd away" or capture alive the heroes of the story? But no, he has to come up with some half-assed attempt to explain it saying that they're the clones of some Moff's son....

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-18 06:36pm

40% of Stormtroopers are cloned soldiers identical to Corporal Milo Strander in Pax Emperica - The Wookiee Annhiliation. There is at least two other brands of GeNode, one to which Sargeant Dower belonged to, and another to which scout troopers belong to. Each GeNode invents their own self-delusional personality and a set of memories to match. They believe they are not clones and believe they have a familial background. They recognize other clones, even clones belonging to their line, but never realize they themselves are clones (they also are programmed to be too polite to discuss cloning with clones belonging to their own line). There are still clones belonging to older lines; characterized by Strander as dumb and fearless.

We know that there were another type of clones from Betrayal and Bantha Tracks; Kamino-esque clones that were born as infants and raised to adulthood. Their level or lack thereof of brainwashing was not indicated in Bantha Tracks, but the ones in Betrayal of this general type were programmed to be specifically loyal to Grand Moff Trachta and his conspirators with the goal of assassinating Emperor Palpatine and the Lord Darth Vader.

However, the precense of the Tantor brothers in Force Commander and other assorted examples as well as information from the Imperial Sourcebook makes it clear that some Stormtroopers are indeed recruits.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-18 06:47pm

Coyote wrote:It is further explained that as the Empire grew, those who were chosen for clone stock material were increasingly chosen based on political connections-- say, a Moff's nephew, or something like that-- and not necessarily combat prowess. Therefore, some Stormies were lousy shots.

Hidalgo said that? What a moron. The Stormies don't have any worse accuracy than RL troops. This bit makes no fucking sense.