Practically all of the great composers...

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-16 09:59pm

...were atheists. Never knew that. A very interesting read.

I especially like this passage:

Madalyn Murray O'Hair wrote:When he was dying he yielded to the pressure of Catholic friends and let a priest administer the sacraments, but it is admitted that when the priest left the room Beethoven said, in the Latin words of the ancient Roman theater, "Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over." During the years of his full inspiration he had little religious feeling. When Felix Moscheles once scribbled on a manuscript, "With God's help," Beethoven wrote, "Man, help thyself."

Post by **Zaia** » 2005-01-16 10:12pm

LOL, that's awesome, Joe.

By the way, we have a music forum now! Well, it's the old A&P forum, but all the music stuff goes there so it'll get less buried since that forum doesn't move as fast! *cheers again for AMP and moves thread*

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-16 10:21pm

Aha...I forgot about AMP. But yeah, it is awesome, isn't it?

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-16 10:25pm

My all-time favorite is still:

"Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
- Voltaire (1694-1778) on his deathbed in response to a priest asking that he renounce Satan.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-01-16 10:36pm

Well of course they were atheist. They were part of that era's version of the pinko commie Hollywood liberal elite. They were using the media to subvert proper Christian morals with their new devilish music.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-16 11:33pm

"Devilish"? A lot of their music pertained to Christianity, and in a positive light.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-01-16 11:41pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: "Devilish"? A lot of their music pertained to Christianity, and in a positive light.

If it's a form of expression then it's devilish, especially if it sounds good.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-16 11:57pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
IRG CommandoJoe wrote: "Devilish"? A lot of their music pertained to Christianity, and in a positive light.
If it's a form of expression then it's devilish, especially if it sounds good.

I don't think the clergymen thought Mendelssohn's "War March of the Priests" was a devilish song, and it sounds very good.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-01-17 12:23am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I don't think the clergymen thought Mendelssohn's "War March of the Priests" was a devilish song, and it sounds very good.

Satan can cloud judgement. Look at how many people like Phil Collins.

egyptfrk · Post by **egyptfrk** » 2005-01-17 12:55am

Wicked Pilot wrote:
IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I don't think the clergymen thought Mendelssohn's "War March of the Priests" was a devilish song, and it sounds very good.
Satan can cloud judgement. Look at how many people like Phil Collins.

rotflmao!

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » 2005-01-17 01:20am

Chmee wrote:My all-time favorite is still:

"Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
- Voltaire (1694-1778) on his deathbed in response to a priest asking that he renounce Satan.

Ok that right there, is the best, im taking it. lol

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-17 01:52am

Hooah! Score one for the underdogs.
Man, this reminds me of PVT Fundie-from-North Carolina from Basic. I said something like "we're in Basic and yeah, we get no freedoms and such but the hardest part aside from being seperated from family/friends and such is the lack of any good music to listen to -- especially since we've had so many phone privilages recently." To which he tells me something like that Satan and music were related and, well to be honest, I can't remember it very well b/c it took me so aback -- I was just like "WTF!?" On top of that this guy also said the US would never beat Israel in a war. I don't even need to say why do I?!

Anyway, this love of and denial of music in BCT inspired both my brother and I (he's also in the military -- satellite communications) to get a Creative Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra, which I recommend. I've got Juno Reactor, Paul Oakenfold, OCremix, FFVI original album the Star Wars CD's, Lo Fi All Stars, remixes from the vidoe game Frequency... this list goes on. Over 2 days worth of musical enjoyment and only 10 of 40 gigs used so far! And yes, I too, am an atheist. Oh and shit, there is this great techno remix of ... Hall in the Mountain King (I believe is the name). Yeah it's unabashed 4/4 tempo techno but of a classical song. ONE PERSON in Basic heard of it in addition to me: he was an atheist.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-17 02:02am

Notice one more thing about atheists in the article: they are independent to the end. How many of these composers on their death beds no less had to ward off or otherwise put up with their loved one's insisting on seeing ministers and the such? Is this independence idicative of nothing? Atheists, by virtue of the theistic environment most of them live in are inherently independent and self-motivated.

I would say defiant instead of or in addition to independent (in regards to the church) but fundies seem to equate defiance and denial, of God that is. Another way of using language to prove godliness and religion are good. (Wong mentioned something similar in his updated pages on religion and stuff)

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-01-17 09:02pm

what i never understood is how these people responded when questioned about the origins of the universe. what other explanation was there then than god?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-17 09:28pm

Can it be that we own all of the great ones?

Johann Sebastian Bach. Franz Joseph Haydn. Antonio Vivaldi. I could go on. Really, the author of that page is obviously either counting on profound ignorance of classical composers on the part of his readers or he is profoundly ignorant himself. In light of the way he kept tossing in comments like the one quoted above so as to lead to the conclusion that this was a disproportionate number of classical composers without actually stating such, I'm inclined towards the former. Twelve individuals does not nearly comprise "practically all of the classical composers," and any claim of such is patently ridiculous on it's face.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-18 01:49pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Twelve individuals does not nearly comprise "practically all of the classical composers," and any claim of such is patently ridiculous on it's face.

She said all of the great ones, not all of them. So whatever her definition of a great composer is may very well only include the atheist composers she listed.

And if you are attempting to quote the very title of this thread, again you left out the word great. I myself believe there are only 3 great composers. Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach are, to me, the greatest of all composers who had ever lived. We atheists have 2 out of 3 composers, and that ain't bad.

(Cookie to whoever gets the reference.)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-18 01:54pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:She said all of the great ones, not all of them. So whatever her definition of a great composer is may very well only include the atheist composers she listed.

Atheism as a measure of a person's skill and artistry in musical composition... Yeah, that's a really relevant prerequisite.

One would have a hard time honestly compiling a list of great composers while leaving out J.S. Bach at the very least. Haydn, Dvorak, Vivaldi, Rimsky-Korsakov, and several others also belong on the list in my opinion, though admittedly one who isn't well versed in the classical, romantic, and baroque periods might leave them out simply for lack of name recognition. However, I again doubt that the author is simply not as familiar with composers as one presuming to write such an article should be, because, well, when you start talking about Bizet, Debussy, Paganini, and to some extent Berlioz, you're treading well out of the realm of popularly known classical composers. I am again forced to the conclusion that the author was presenting the data deceptively for her own purposes; she's obviously not ignorant. Even if the criteria she was using for the status of "great" included being non-Christian (note that not all of the men on her list were atheists; Mozart was a Freemason, Brahms was agnostic, Debussy was a neo-pagan, Schumann was a pantheist, etc.) as you suggest, she has to know that it is a highly irregular requisite and one tailor-made to make the point of her article self-fulfilling and therefore worthless, and furthermore, in light of the irregularity of such a condition, it would be highly dishonest not to mention it. Yet saying so would remove all weight from the article, and she in fact said nothing of the sort. Either way, the article's got more holes than a seive.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2005-01-18 02:01pm

PFC Brungardt wrote: Oh and shit, there is this great techno remix of ... Hall in the Mountain King (I believe is the name). Yeah it's unabashed 4/4 tempo techno but of a classical song. ONE PERSON in Basic heard of it in addition to me: he was an atheist.

dum de dum de dum a dum, dum da dum, dum da dum
dum de dum da dum de dum da dum de dum de dah!

My father had a record of the Peer Gynt orchestral soundtrack. He would play Hall of the Mountain King repeatedly with the volume set on 10. The crescendo could be heard three houses down.

Then my lil brother found a band that did a heavy guitar rock version and gave it to Dad. He still loved it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-18 02:12pm

PFC Brungardt wrote:Man, this reminds me of PVT Fundie-from-North Carolina from Basic. I said something like "we're in Basic and yeah, we get no freedoms and such but the hardest part aside from being seperated from family/friends and such is the lack of any good music to listen to -- especially since we've had so many phone privilages recently." To which he tells me something like that Satan and music were related and, well to be honest, I can't remember it very well b/c it took me so aback -- I was just like "WTF!?"

Interesting. Well, here I sit, Christian and a music major. He can take that and shove it up his ass.

Marksist · Post by **Marksist** » 2005-01-18 02:45pm

Atheism as a measure of a person's skill and artistry in musical composition... Yeah, that's a really relevant prerequisite.

I don't think he was saying that atheism was a prerequisite, just that the composers on the "greats" list were atheists.. not that they were on the list because of it.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-18 02:46pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Atheism as a measure of a person's skill and artistry in musical composition... Yeah, that's a really relevant prerequisite. One would have a hard time honestly compiling a list of great composers while leaving out J.S. Bach at the very least. Haydn, Dvorak, Vivaldi, Rimsky-Korsakov, and several others also belong on the list in my opinion, though admittedly one who isn't well versed in the classical, romantic, and baroque periods might leave them out simply for lack of name recognition. However, I again doubt that the author is simply not as familiar with composers as one presuming to write such an article should be, because, well, when you start talking about Bizet, Debussy, Paganini, and to some extent Berlioz, you're treading well out of the realm of popularly known classical composers. I am again forced to the conclusion that the author was presenting the data deceptively for her own purposes; she's obviously not ignorant. Even if the criteria she was using for the status of "great" included being non-Christian (note that not all of the men on her list were atheists; Mozart was a Freemason, Brahms was agnostic, Debussy was a neo-pagan, Schumann was a pantheist, etc.) as you suggest, she has to know that it is a highly irregular requisite and one tailor-made to make the point of her article self-fulfilling and therefore worthless, and furthermore, in light of the irregularity of such a condition, it would be highly dishonest not to mention it. Yet saying so would remove all weight from the article, and she in fact said nothing of the sort. Either way, the article's got more holes than a seive.

While it does seem to be "tailor-made" (I saw this immediately as I read the list of composers) there is still the possibility that she only believes those composers listed are great. As hard as it might be to believe, there are people out there who dislike Bach and Dvorak and other composers you might consider to be great, or simply hold certain composers you yourself might not like above others you do like. Or they might hold composers you do like, but do not consider to be great, over composers you consider to be great. For example, there are plenty of people on SD.net that hold Williams above the Big Three, which I disagree with. So it is entirely possible that the author is being honest.

EDIT: Actually, another good example would be my friend IRL. He likes Tchaikovsky and Wagner and such, but dislikes Beethoven and Mozart. I am slowly trying to mold him into liking them, but for some reason he hates some of their greatest works, such as Fur Elise and the Moonlight Sonata and Ein Klein Nactmuzik. So if you don't consider that to be bizarre, then...

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-18 02:47pm

Marksist wrote:I don't think he was saying that atheism was a prerequisite, just that the composers on the "greats" list were atheists.. not that they were on the list because of it.

Yes, that is precisely what I meant. Thank you.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-18 03:46pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Actually, another good example would be my friend IRL. He likes Tchaikovsky and Wagner and such, but dislikes Beethoven and Mozart. I am slowly trying to mold him into liking them, but for some reason he hates some of their greatest works, such as Fur Elise and the Moonlight Sonata and Ein Klein Nactmuzik. So if you don't consider that to be bizarre, then...

Hey, don't get me wrong. I love Tchaikovsky's work, and Mozart's, and Beethoven's. I'll take Dvorak over the lot of them, though.

All I'm saying is that the article seems to carry a rather extreme and probably intentional bias, and not one based on musical taste. Tchaikovsky's style is worlds apart from that of Mozart, Schumann, or Schubert, while Tchaikovsky's work on the surface shares many similarities to Dvorak (that is to say, they were both bombastic as hell

), despite the latter not being included. I admit that it could possibly be a coincidence of taste, but I find it incredible that one's tastes could be so diverse as to include everything from cannon salutes to piano sonatas while somehow managing to exclude similar music composed by men who do not fit the bill of "atheist," especially given the conflict of interest between such artistic distinctions and the purpose of the article.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2005-01-18 06:29pm

Heh, I guess when you compare the non-Christian composers whose styles are similar to Christian composers, you're right. Although it's very informative in that before reading it I never knew any of them were atheists. I always assumed Wagner was a Christian since Hitler was so enthralled with him. I wonder if it was known at the time that he wasn't a Christian.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-18 06:58pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Heh, I guess when you compare the non-Christian composers whose styles are similar to Christian composers, you're right. Although it's very informative in that before reading it I never knew any of them were atheists. I always assumed Wagner was a Christian since Hitler was so enthralled with him. I wonder if it was known at the time that he wasn't a Christian.

Hitler was enthralled with his propaganda tools. Wagner was an all-German composer who wrote inspiring martial music, and was therefore useful to the militaristic and nationalistic Nazi regime, Christian or no. He was also an anti-Semite as I recall, though that could have been a Hitlerian projection onto him as part of the propaganda. I'll have to check that this evening when I get back to my room where I have my reference books for this sort of thing. (Note that the Nazi party's fascination with Wagner isn't mentioned in the article, even though said fascination is ongoing; the boards of the American National Socialist Party have three entire forums dedicated to aspects of his music.

)