Some form of 40K RP- here and now

[Stormbringer]

I mean after all Astropaths are jusst a step up from Golden throne chow...

on the other hand if x number of Senshi were to feed themselves to their ancestor, we would get an new warp enity capable of bitchslapping the chaos gods and the necrons....

Well, the sensei thing is an in-universe theory, so I wouldn't place too much weight on it.

Even if the Emperor were to ascend, I don't see him bitchslapping Chaos. Perhaps acting to restore a certain amount of equilibrium, but the duel between order and chaos probably won't ever go away.

Actually, it might happen. There's no guarentee what will happen but it could. It's been said that the Emperor if he ascended could well wipe out all four Chaos Gods, in out of game fact. The Emperor is the most powerful single warp being, period. Largely because he was birthed in a rather exceptional manner.

[The Yosemite Bear]

In the future there are only beurocracy and war profitteers

[Imperial Overlord]

If the Emperor ascends to god hood, it will be Ragnarok and Armaggedon rolled into one. In the Eye of Terror, one of the greatest of the Lords of Change is planning for the great battle and even he cannot predict the outcome

[Petrosjko]

This is something I've thought about for a while now... thing is, the Chaos Gods, as much as they can be said to 'think' in human terms, aren't so... committed to victory over the Imperium as portrayed. Now certainly many of their followers are- for the Traitor Marines, it's personal. But harkening back to the discussion at the end of Pawns of Chaos, it would seem that the destination is not so important to Tzeentch as is the journey. Likewise for the other three, they can wax and wane and still achieve their goals.

For example, Khorne thrives on conflict. What conflict? Any conflict, so long as it's bloody.

Now assuming the Emperor did ascend and smack them down, how long would matters proceed until they started slipping back in? Millennia? Longer? They're essentially timeless beings. They can afford to keep probing at the cracks in the structure.

Of course, the other side of the equation is that whether he lays the final smackdown on the forces of chaos or not, the final victory of the Emperor and imposition of order upon the galaxy would likely not be a pleasant affair either. If he becomes the proper antithesis to the forces of chaos, in essence becoming a God of Order, it'll likely come in a nasty Vorlon-esque form.

Of course, this also disregards the Necron, who will have their own opinion on how things should work, not to mention Gork and Mork's endless teeming hordes.

[Stormbringer]

This is something I've thought about for a while now... thing is, the Chaos Gods, as much as they can be said to 'think' in human terms, aren't so... committed to victory over the Imperium as portrayed. Now certainly many of their followers are- for the Traitor Marines, it's personal. But harkening back to the discussion at the end of Pawns of Chaos, it would seem that the destination is not so important to Tzeentch as is the journey. Likewise for the other three, they can wax and wane and still achieve their goals.

You're right in that. They're not as committed nor as capable of swallowing the whole universe as it would seem. Some of the would literally find their power broken if they claim the entire universe.

That's one of the reason the Emperor is different. He's driven, focused, and can survive his victory. Basically the Emperor is constructed to win and he has a purpose. Something the Chaos Gods don't have.

Now assuming the Emperor did ascend and smack them down, how long would matters proceed until they started slipping back in? Millennia? Longer? They're essentially timeless beings. They can afford to keep probing at the cracks in the structure.

If he bitch slaps them, they go bye bye. Chaos Gods have been destroyed or weakened to the point of exiled powerless.

Of course, the other side of the equation is that whether he lays the final smackdown on the forces of chaos or not, the final victory of the Emperor and imposition of order upon the galaxy would likely not be a pleasant affair either. If he becomes the proper antithesis to the forces of chaos, in essence becoming a God of Order, it'll likely come in a nasty Vorlon-esque form.

What will happen probably depends. The Emperor is not a God of Order persay but rather hope as opposed to the despair and decadence of the Chaos Gods. So it's not necessarily the case that he would be some sort of facist god.

Of course, this also disregards the Necron, who will have their own opinion on how things should work, not to mention Gork and Mork's endless teeming hordes.

The Necrons will be waiting on their plan at the heat death of the universe. Even the Eldar are busy compared to them.

And Gork and Mork? It's hard to say but they're minor enough.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Emperor won't bitch slap them. If he wins he'll absorb them into a sane whole (at least that's what the Lord of Change believes). That's almost worse than death for the Chaos Gods, which are unfettered extremes.

[Petrosjko]

What will happen probably depends. The Emperor is not a God of Order persay but rather hope as opposed to the despair and decadence of the Chaos Gods. So it's not necessarily the case that he would be some sort of facist god.

Agreed on your previous points, except as noted here. Given the nature of the Chaos Gods, the only way he could really prevent them from remanifesting would probably involve some seriously rigid control. Perhaps a bit more enlightened than the current Imperium, but rigid all the same. Presumably his rebirth and subsequent apocalyptic battle against the Chaos Gods would involve scourging the Eye of Terror, which could well banish their current incarnations. But so long as there is war, there will be warp energies coalescing around the associated thought patterns, which in time can coalesce into Chaos Gods, just like the originals did. Hell, the affairs of Earth alone were largely enough to form Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch.

Of course, as I write it I think on the other aspect of the Emperor's plan, vis a vis awakening the psychic potential of the human race. That has interesting implications if one takes that as part of a scheme to essentially turn the species into quasi-angels who can manipulate the warp enough to smooth out such lumps of warp energy before they become sentient and threatening.

The Necrons will be waiting on their plan at the heat death of the universe. Even the Eldar are busy compared to them.

And Gork and Mork? It's hard to say but they're minor enough.

Well, the Necron are extremely long-term in nature, but they can afford to be. The entire lifespan of the human race is an eyeblink to them.

As for Gork and Mork, given that the farthest probes out detected ork activity, I don't think they can be written off so easily. If they really have begun expanding into other galaxies, their power has the potential to grow exponentially, especially if there aren't species capable of fighting them off so well as the Imperium has managed.

Their main weakness is that they have even less concept of strategic thinking than Khorne does.

[Stormbringer]

Agreed on your previous points, except as noted here. Given the nature of the Chaos Gods, the only way he could really prevent them from remanifesting would probably involve some seriously rigid control.

Depends really. As I said, it's primarily hopelessness and despair among the more psychically intune races that's brought about the Chaos Gods. If the post ascension were something like the Culture I doubt that would be an issue.

But so long as there is war, there will be warp energies coalescing around the associated thought patterns, which in time can coalesce into Chaos Gods, just like the originals did. Hell, the affairs of Earth alone were largely enough to form Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch.

I always figured the events on Earth were part of a largely part of a pattern that happened to all psychically aware races. Certainly it's hard to justify such an Earth-centric creation and not have humanity fall like the Eldar. But that's mostly just my two cents on that.

And yes, it is an issue. Which is why the Post-Acension universe is something very much open to debate.

Of course, as I write it I think on the other aspect of the Emperor's plan, vis a vis awakening the psychic potential of the human race. That has interesting implications if one takes that as part of a scheme to essentially turn the species into quasi-angels who can manipulate the warp enough to smooth out such lumps of warp energy before they become sentient and threatening.

I think that's certainly part of it. And if the Eldar and for that matter the Emperor's own creation have any bearing it's entirely possible and has some very interesting implications in and of it self.

It also implies that humans can tap the warp with out corruption by the Chaos powers. Assuming one was sufficiently pure and strong. Hmmm, interesting implications.

Well, the Necron are extremely long-term in nature, but they can afford to be. The entire lifespan of the human race is an eyeblink to them.

They can afford to be, or so they think. In a galaxy as harsh and hostile they'll likely be bitchslapped six ways to Sunday before then. Assuming they don't just let their "long veiw" convince themselves to do nothing.

As for Gork and Mork, given that the farthest probes out detected ork activity, I don't think they can be written off so easily. If they really have begun expanding into other galaxies, their power has the potential to grow exponentially, especially if there aren't species capable of fighting them off so well as the Imperium has managed.

Their main weakness is that they have even less concept of strategic thinking than Khorne does.

The Orks can be nasty. The problem is they're as good as blunt and are as you said, strategic morons.

Similar could be said of the Tyranids.

[Petrosjko]

Depends really. As I said, it's primarily hopelessness and despair among the more psychically intune races that's brought about the Chaos Gods. If the post ascension were something like the Culture I doubt that would be an issue.

Well, all I know of the Culture comes from skimming the FAQ in OSF, so I can't really discuss the comparison from a knowledgable standpoint.

I always figured the events on Earth were part of a largely part of a pattern that happened to all psychically aware races. Certainly it's hard to justify such an Earth-centric creation and not have humanity fall like the Eldar. But that's mostly just my two cents on that.

And yes, it is an issue. Which is why the Post-Acension universe is something very much open to debate.

Well, this goes into the 'human-wanking brain bug' discussion over in OSF, but from the evidence we're presented it would seem that the human race is special and somewhat akin to the Eldar, having a level of psychic attunement that is very rare. By the example of Farseer we see that humans can develop powers that rival or possibly even exceed those of the most powerful Eldar, but as humanity is a young species that has been feeding its psychics to the Emperor for ten thousand years, they don't have the general level of psychic development of the Eldar and aren't even moving in that direction.

However, it raises some interesting possibilities. If the human race in general is capable of developing to a point that equals or even exceeds the Eldar in terms of psychic capacity, and propagates itself faster, then in evolutionary terms the human race was on its way to uncontested dominance of the galaxy. However, the self-destructive possibilities in having such power have caused the species to stagnate while they struggle to overcome the negative manifestations of their capabilities.

Human-wank on a massive scale, but interesting to think about.

I think that's certainly part of it. And if the Eldar and for that matter the Emperor's own creation have any bearing it's entirely possible and has some very interesting implications in and of it self.

It also implies that humans can tap the warp with out corruption by the Chaos powers. Assuming one was sufficiently pure and strong. Hmmm, interesting implications.

Given that the Eldar have developed the mechanisms to tap into warp power without being corrupted by it, I could easily see a more enlightened human culture guided by the Star Child doing it as well.

They can afford to be, or so they think. In a galaxy as harsh and hostile they'll likely be bitchslapped six ways to Sunday before then. Assuming they don't just let their "long veiw" convince themselves to do nothing.

Unless they pull off the whole 'severing the warp' scheme, in which case they become the barely contested masters of the Milky Way.

The Orks can be nasty. The problem is they're as good as blunt and are as you said, strategic morons.

Similar could be said of the Tyranids.

True. But Gork and Mork could never be truly eradicated unless the Mighty Mushroom Warriors are eliminated first, and if they're spreading to other galaxies, that's a mighty tall order.

As for the 'Nids, I like the notion that there's a lot more to them than meets the eye. If we're going to bundle the genestealers in with them, then perhaps there is a greater depth to their culture than merely 'Show up, eat everything, move on.' The genestealers are far too elegant a weapon for a mindless swarm of army ants.

[Imperial Overlord]

As for the 'nids, I think there must be some kind of higher intelligence behind them. Bioships just don't evolve themselves. SoD kind of demands that they exist. Of course, the higher intelligence are probably REMFs (Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers on the highly unlikely chance that even one person doesn't know what that stands for) of the highest magnitude and won't enter the galaxy until it is pacified or a major beachhead is established.

[Stormbringer]

Well, all I know of the Culture comes from skimming the FAQ in OSF, so I can't really discuss the comparison from a knowledgable standpoint.

Well, it's a practical utopia. It really is as close as it's possible to come to a material utopia in a real universe.

Well, this goes into the 'human-wanking brain bug' discussion over in OSF, but from the evidence we're presented it would seem that the human race is special and somewhat akin to the Eldar, having a level of psychic attunement that is very rare. By the example of Farseer we see that humans can develop powers that rival or possibly even exceed those of the most powerful Eldar, but as humanity is a young species that has been feeding its psychics to the Emperor for ten thousand years, they don't have the general level of psychic development of the Eldar and aren't even moving in that direction.

Oh, I have no problem believing that. It's been shown time and again that humans are probably the most powerful and strongly attuned race so far (a few might have existed but were swatted). Seeing the like of Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and others (Quixos, Draco, etc) it's entirely likely tat humans can be quite powerful and skillful psykers.

And I wouldn't say entirely that humans aren't moving the right direction. The problem is just that it's taking a heck of a long time. The Eldar had who knows how long to get where they are, certainly longer. Though humanity has the ace hole card of the God-Emperor. So it's hard to say. Humanity just might make it.

And for some reason it seem that Gamesworkshop is dusting off the Emperor mythos.

However, it raises some interesting possibilities. If the human race in general is capable of developing to a point that equals or even exceeds the Eldar in terms of psychic capacity, and propagates itself faster, then in evolutionary terms the human race was on its way to uncontested dominance of the galaxy. However, the self-destructive possibilities in having such power have caused the species to stagnate while they struggle to overcome the negative manifestations of their capabilities.

Humanity is already near dominant everwhere. Finally getting psyker-ized would only ensure that domination once and for all. The big thing I think will be either the mass realization of psyker talent or the Emperor's acension.

Either that of a fundamental shift in their understanding of the warp. That's possible, some character (Possible Spoilers:[size=0]Eisenhorn and Draco come to mind, maybe Ravenor[/size]) have come close to that understanding already.

Human-wank on a massive scale, but interesting to think about.

It is, on both counts.

Given that the Eldar have developed the mechanisms to tap into warp power without being corrupted by it, I could easily see a more enlightened human culture guided by the Star Child doing it as well.

The Eldar have, somewhat. They tap the warp but seem to have rather developed a way to tap the warp but sheild themselves from it. I'm talking a humanity that can actively manipulate the warp with out worrying about any warp entities. That's beyond the Eldar right now but theoretically possible.

Unless they pull off the whole 'severing the warp' scheme, in which case they become the barely contested masters of the Milky Way.

Yes. But again the Necron move at a pace that make a glacier look like a NASCAR.

True. But Gork and Mork could never be truly eradicated unless the Mighty Mushroom Warriors are eliminated first, and if they're spreading to other galaxies, that's a mighty tall order.

It is indeed. But so long as they're kept pruned back, something easy enough to do, their warp gods seem to be weak and spastic at best. They're nasty, we've got some humdinger examples, but they're not even as powerful as the rememnants of the Eldar Pantheon usually.

As for the 'Nids, I like the notion that there's a lot more to them than meets the eye. If we're going to bundle the genestealers in with them, then perhaps there is a greater depth to their culture than merely 'Show up, eat everything, move on.' The genestealers are far too elegant a weapon for a mindless swarm of army ants.

There's definitely more behind the Tyranids than meets the eye. Just what is rather difficult to speculate. But the idea that they're being driven by some sort of advanced race makes a certain elegant vicious sense.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Eldar Webway shows what can be done safely with an advanced understanding of the warp.

I don't find 40K to have a lot of human wank. Humans are no where near as psychicly advanced as the Eldar and neither the Orks or the 'Nids have humans corruption problem. The Imperium is threatened by human vices, intolerance, and blindness and is incompetent on many levels.

I think the perception of human wank is the taking of the fantasy heroic scale into space. But that applies to Chaos, Eldar, C'tan, and the rest as well. We just focus on the humans because we are humans.

[Petrosjko]

I'm not criticizing 40K on the basis of human wank- I'm not categorically opposed to stories that show the human race as being powerful and potentially uber powerful. The fact that 40K balances this by displaying a very dark and grim human society makes it acceptable in story terms.

My main dislike of human wank comes from STNG and the spinoffs, the sophomoric 'Oh, we're so much nicer and more enlightened than anybody but pacifistic agrarian commune cultures' crap.

[Imperial Overlord]

In 40K everyone is powerful. The Necrons have tech that even scientifically minded analysis scratch their heads and go "It violates physics as we understand it, but it works." Humans have yet to reach the levels that the Eldar fell from.

TNG Trek has the idiocy of making every alien a human stereotype with a funny forehead. And it has a weird luddite antitechnology fringe (I think that it seeps in from the part of the anti-war stance that transmutes itself to extreme pacifism). Anyone who loves no tech agrarianism should have to do it for a year (so they can experience winter without central heating).

[The Yosemite Bear]

not mention my lovely convient insulin.

[Petrosjko]

In 40K everyone is powerful. The Necrons have tech that even scientifically minded analysis scratch their heads and go "It violates physics as we understand it, but it works." Humans have yet to reach the levels that the Eldar fell from.

Everyone is powerful, but the Imperium sits in the middle of it all, and if they could simply focus on any one enemy, they could grind them down to nothing. (Other than possibly a fully awakened Necron empire.) The Imperium is the dominant force in the Milky Way. Now admittedly the Eldar pre-fall could have smacked them back into the stone age, even at the height of Imperial power during the Crusades, but they're about the only ones.

TNG Trek has the idiocy of making every alien a human stereotype with a funny forehead. And it has a weird luddite antitechnology fringe (I think that it seeps in from the part of the anti-war stance that transmutes itself to extreme pacifism). Anyone who loves no tech agrarianism should have to do it for a year (so they can experience winter without central heating).

Ain't that the damn truth. But the thing that always bothered me is that while I can handle the human-wanking for terms of power, tech, you name it, the implicit moral superiority that TNG always espoused just irked me to no end. Especially given the ridiculous society that Roddenberry concocted for TNG. Back in our discussion on Star Trek RPGs I commented on the contortions that LUG had to make in trying to depict Federation society in workable terms. My favorite part was the DS9 RPG's background section on how colonists were rough and ready frontiersmen who tended to discard some of the niceties of Federation society.

BUT.

They're carefully screened for aberrant personality traits and if they're, y'know, not politically correct then they're pulled out for treatment before they're sent off. It's the eternal contradiction of utopia, which by necessity dictates a static society.

[Imperial Overlord]

Don't worry YB. That small group of people who voluntarily gave up technology are far more deserving of the healing benefits of the metaphasic radiation than the rest of the quadrant combined, including everyone who fought to protect them from Dominion enslavement.

[Imperial Overlord]

Petro, are you killing Prius off so that the Imperium will be spared the possibility of him becoming an inquisitor?

[Petrosjko]

Naaaaaaah. General Carnis is very deftly getting a homicidal lunatic out of his command center, preferably for the duration of operations.

Prius won't be inserted into the target zone, it'll be somewhere other hive where they want to stir some shit up. The added perk to this is that once again our action will be split up, so I can run stuff with Jolan and you can run stuff with Prius.

I r teh clever.

[Imperial Overlord]

Yes you are *Pets Petro on the head* Do you want a lollypop?

[Petrosjko]

I shall not snarl. I shall not snap.

I shall simply plot my revenge in the dark, abyssal reaches, and someday... when you least expect it... I will come forth and unleash hell upon you.

And take my lollypop by force.

Punk.

[Typhonis 1]

Well Nathan is awake but is he well enough to go on your little field trip

[Petrosjko]

Depends on how hard he wants to push it, Typh. Give it four to five days before D-day, then a ten day interval before the strike, he's got a bit of time to recover.

[Typhonis 1]

Sides the others may be a bit leery of him since the incident...make sure he is clean first ...

[Petrosjko]

That's where things get interesting. If he says he's okay, only another inquisitor can say he ain't.