Michael Moore's Bodyguard Arrested on Airport Gun Charge

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-01-20 09:34pm

Superman wrote:Perinquus, again you have proven nothing. Yes, he could have known about it but it's entirely possible he did not. Like I said, I have seen idiot guards carry their weapons where and when they are not supposed to. You don't have all the facts.

I should add something else as well. I too am well aquainted with secirity guards. I too know the type you describe. These are the rent-a-cops whom the police justifiably regard only with varying degrees of contempt. They have all of 3 days to two weeks formal training, and they are rent-a-cops becaus they are not good enough to be real cops.

Now in what way do you imagine that your acquaintance with this sort of person applies to this situation. Do you seriously entertain the idea that this is the sort of knucklehead Michael Moore hired to be one of his bodyguards? Do you honestly imagine some rent-a-cop making $12 an hour is the kind of guy a zillionaire like Michael Moore hires for personal security.

He can pay top dollar, and this means he can afford to hire a better class of guard. And he can also afford to have any such guard's background investigated thoroughly enough to see if he is competent and trustworthy enough to employ.

The idea that Michael Moore had no idea that the guard he hired had a permit to carry a dirty, nasty, evil handgun is simply too ridiculous to credit.

He damn well knew, and he's damn sure a hypocrite.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-01-20 09:39pm

Now in what way do you imagine that your acquaintance with this sort of person applies to this situation. Do you seriously entertain the idea that this is the sort of knucklehead Michael Moore hired to be one of his bodyguards? Do you honestly imagine some rent-a-cop making $12 an hour is the kind of guy a zillionaire like Michael Moore hires for personal security.

No, but often these companies provide services such as armed guards, alarms, private patrols and personal body guards. He could be an employee from a fucking security company. Yeah he has zillions of dollars, but I don't know what he's spending it on. He looks like a bum most of the time.

By the way, fuck you for calling me a fool.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-01-20 09:39pm

Elfdart wrote:Perinquus, you insist Moore knew his bodyguard was packing. PPOR BITCH!

Moore isn't a hypocrite any more than someone who wants to abolish the Post Office collects letters from his own mailbox.

Bullshit.

As usual, you are full of crap. This is the most glaringly false analogy I have ever seen, as no one advocates banning the post office you incredible fucking moron. Find me someone who advocates banning parcel and letter delivery. Find one. I dare you. I double dare you. He may advocate privatizing the post office, but that's hardly the same thing. That's merely advocating what one believes a more efficient means of doing the job. It says nothing against the job itself.

I'll repeat. How can you advocate banning something of which you yourself make use, and not be a hypocrite? If you truly think it is wrong, you will have nothing to do with it.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-01-20 09:48pm

No proof Moore knew his guard was armed?

Concession accepted.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-01-20 09:52pm

Superman wrote:
Now in what way do you imagine that your acquaintance with this sort of person applies to this situation. Do you seriously entertain the idea that this is the sort of knucklehead Michael Moore hired to be one of his bodyguards? Do you honestly imagine some rent-a-cop making $12 an hour is the kind of guy a zillionaire like Michael Moore hires for personal security.
No, but often these companies provide services such as armed guards, alarms, private patrols and personal body guards. He could be an employee from a fucking security company. Yeah he has zillions of dollars, but I don't know what he's spending it on. He looks like a bum most of the time.

By the way, fuck you for calling me a fool.

Then don't act like one. To suppose that a man of Moore's intelligence, wealth, resources, and motivation could somehow not know a thing like this is so foolish that it deserves nothing but scorn. I refuse to apologize for pouring scorn on a manifestly foolish notion. Moore has the intelligence, the money, and the motivation to hire well trained, competent, professional security experts. These are simply not the Die Hard wannabes you find working as rent-a-cops for your local security company. And to suppose that he would not require resumes and references from these people, and have their backgrounds checked to verify their claims and avoid liability issues should one of them ever shoot or strike someone by mistake is simply too ridiculous to give any serious consideration. Can you imagine how much he'd be sued for if he hired one of these idiots you describe, and such an idiot ever got oversealous (as such idiots tend to do) and broke someone's nose without cause. You think Moore wants to open himself up to a lawsuit like that, as rich as he is, and as much as the plaintiff would be seeking in damages? Of course not. He'll check his bodyguards' backgrounds out far more carefully than that. And this cannot help but reveal that said bodyguard has a permit to pack a gun. To imagine he could remain ignorant of such a fact is simply too absurd an idea to deserve anything but contempt.

Face it, in order to defend Michael Moore you have backed yourself into the corner of having to believe the most highly implausible things in order to imagine him not guilty of hypocrisy. Whose fault is that? Be honest with yourself.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-01-20 09:55pm

I guess the other question I would have here, in our noteable lack of facts, is whether Moore has a published position on trained professionals carrying. Presumably he's never bitched about cops carrying ... what's his position on security guards?

Hypocrisy might be Moore carrying ... otherwise I'm just not sure the word fits, in the absence of more data.

Otherwise, I think there's a big difference between talking about the way we want the world to be, the political direction we'd like to push it in, and the real world we have to live in today. Which still fits the non-proliferation analogy nicely.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-01-20 09:56pm

The only way Moore could conceivably not have known is if he deliberately and quite consciously tried NOT to know. It is frankly inconceivable that someone would hire a bodyguard and not realize the person was armed.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-01-20 09:56pm

Elfdart wrote:No proof Moore knew his guard was armed?

Concession accepted.

I don't concede shit to you you ignorant twat. He knew it. Any claim that he did not know it is as credible as Albert Speer's claims that he had no idea until very late in the war that Hitler was actually gassing Jews to death instead of simply transporting them as claimed. You can't actually prove beyond reasonable doubt that Speer was lying about this. But if you really believe him then your a goddamn idiot.

We already know you're a goddamn idiot, and you prove it yet again, because apparently you will believe such ridiculous claims.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-20 09:57pm

No guns designed to kill people is pretty fucking clear.

Lot of bullshitting and loop-backflipping going on tonight.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2005-01-20 11:29pm

Elfdart wrote:No proof Moore knew his guard was armed?

Has Moore even said that's the case?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-01-20 11:38pm

On the one hand, the guy wasn't Moore's bodyguard when he got arrested. On the other, you'd have to be a moron to not know that a bodyguard will probably be packing (martial arts aren't that great compared to a gun). On the gripping hand, I think this should be HoSed.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-01-20 11:39pm

Pointing out that Moore is a member of the NRA is like me pointing out I was a member of Darkstar's message board...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-20 11:46pm

Elfdart wrote:No proof Moore knew his guard was armed?

Concession accepted.

Okay, I'm going to take what Perinquus has been saying this entire time and put it in small words so that you'll understand.

Concealed carry permits are a matter of public record. Any background check at all made upon the guard when he was being hired would reveal that he held one. If he has a concealed carry permit, then it follows that he uses it. Therefore, Michael Moore either knowingly employed a man who carries an eeeeeeeeeevil handgun, or Michael Moore is a goddamned idiot who doesn't read his employee's resumes. Whatever else one might think about him, he, unlike you, is not a goddamned idiot; the man is all too clever and has repeatedly shown himself to be so. Therefore it is not credible in any sense of the word that Moore did not know that his guard carried a handgun.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2005-01-21 12:16am

Did Moore know his bodyguard carried a gun? Sit down Perinquus, you don't have enough info.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-01-21 12:18am

I see something has been missing.

You can still be a hypocrite and still be right. The message he is sending may be correct, even if he himself does not practise the message. The intent of the message does not change the content of the message. If you want to criticise gun banning, then criticise it, not the man.

That being said, if you advocate something openly in public and then privately do something else, the question is whether you truly believe what you are spewing comes to mind.

In other words, at most it makes him look like a fool and doesn't hurt his message any more than make us question whether he believes the message himself or not. I'm not saying I agree with his message, just like to point out that the hypocrite thing doesn't by itself invalidate his argument.

Brian

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-01-21 12:26am

Elfdart wrote:Perinquus, you insist Moore knew his bodyguard was packing. PPOR BITCH!

Yeah he would certainly know, because you have to pay an armed bodyguard massively more then one who has no weapon if you get one from anything like a respectable source. Somehow I don't think Moore just picked a big looking guy off the street or out of a newspaper add.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2005-01-21 12:31am

Did Moore aim his anti-gun message to professionals like cops?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-21 12:32am

brianeyci wrote:I see something has been missing.

You can still be a hypocrite and still be right. The message he is sending may be correct, even if he himself does not practise the message. The intent of the message does not change the content of the message. If you want to criticise gun banning, then criticise it, not the man.

That being said, if you advocate something openly in public and then privately do something else, the question is whether you truly believe what you are spewing comes to mind.

In other words, at most it makes him look like a fool and doesn't hurt his message any more than make us question whether he believes the message himself or not. I'm not saying I agree with his message, just like to point out that the hypocrite thing doesn't by itself invalidate his argument.

Brian

Get to the point. You think this is all one big ad hominem tu quoque. Sorry, no one's been saying "Michael Moore's guard carries a gun, therefore gun control is wrong," and until that happens your post is more than just a little nonsensical.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-01-21 12:52am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Perinquus, you insist Moore knew his bodyguard was packing. PPOR BITCH!
Yeah he would certainly know, because you have to pay an armed bodyguard massively more then one who has no weapon if you get one from anything like a respectable source. Somehow I don't think Moore just picked a big looking guy off the street or out of a newspaper add.

So there's no possibility that say, Moore's agent hired a security service to guard him after the numerous death threats? A common practice for rich celebs, by the way. There's no possibility that the service was like Pinkerton Security, where some guards are armed and others aren't? No possibility that Moore only knew that security was on the job -not if they were packing? Nah, couldn't be.

Use your head for something other than a hat rack. The guard was busted without Moore being anywhere near him. This is as absurd as the attempt to link Jennifer Lopez to a gun charge against her boyfriend's bodyguard, only with one more layer of separation.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-01-21 01:17am

Why the fuck would you hire exclusively unarmed bodyguards (esp. in this case where we know of one who had concealed carry and even carried where NOT AUTHORIZED) to protect against death threats?

Its complete bullshit to pretend that statements, "he did not know" and "he knew" are completely equal and err on caution. The former is absurd.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-01-21 01:40am

brianeyci wrote:[snip]

Who gives a shit? Have you seen anyone say that Moore's argument is wrong because his bodyguard carried a weapon? Gun control has been picked apart in numerous other threads. This one's just for laughing at Mike Moore.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2005-01-21 02:41am

I fail to see why this should be in my hall of shame.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-01-21 03:35am

I really don't want to jump into this debate, but I must ask if Moore has ever advocated that cops and similiar private sector professionals like security guards and bodyguards not be allowed to arm themselves?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2005-01-21 03:50am

Wicked Pilot wrote:I really don't want to jump into this debate, but I must ask if Moore has ever advocated that cops and similiar private sector professionals like security guards and bodyguards not be allowed to arm themselves?

Not that I can recall.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2005-01-21 04:02am

So it goes something like this:

Moore: I think handguns shouldn't be freely available for private use.

Unknown number of gun nuts, encouraged by people like Clint Eastwood: IF I SEE YOU YOU DIE!!

Moore hires professional bodyguards, who he never said should be barred of using guns anyway, because he never aspired to be a martyr for the cause of disarming said gun nuts.

Moore detractors, salivating: OMG!! HYPOCRISY!!