White House Strategy on Social Security..?

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Patrick Degan
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tharkûn wrote:
And of course it blithely ignores the distinct difference between "action to fix problems now will avert a future crisis" (the approach of Clinton and predecessors —including Reagan, BTW) and "the crisis is NOW, therefore we must end Social Security as we know it!!!" (the Bush approach).
Because there aren't any differences about the definition of the problem. The only real difference is in the proposed solutions. You view privatization as evil whereas others view perpetual tax increases as evil.

The nuts and the bolts of it come down to thus:
The past stellar returns of social security rested upon an expanding income base built by unsustainible population growth and increases in real wages.

The present fiscal situation in the US will NOT be sustainable in the long term. If nothing else redeeming the social security debt is going to require massive changes in the budget (more interest on new debt floated at a higher premium, more taxation, or shifted budgetary allotments).

I am not saying that the US population will necessarily decline, nor that real wages will fall; just that the system is not robust enough to weather the storm should they do so.

Take a simple trend, the increasing prevelence of kids not to work right out of highschool. Okay what does that mean in the longterm? Well for one it will lower the percentage of the population who are workers and increase the median worker age. So one could conclude that this is a bad thing? No, because by delaying entry into the workforce individuals gain skills which have a dramatic increase in their market value. So it is a good thing? Again not necessarily so higher education seems to track along with higher life expectancy plus the education gap between the US and the rest of the world is falling - the value of being an American with an advanced degree may not remain quite so large.

The point? That predicting the impacts of every sociological change possible or even just likely to hit the social security system is hard if not impossible. The system should be designed to be robust with a large margin of safety. Indeed part of the margin should be ways to prevent stupid governments from dicking it over, Bush is not the first, nor will he be the last to try to overhaul the system.

The basic suspicion that I have of the social security system is that private firms offer the same basic services, but NONE of them use a pay as you go model. You can buy insurance to cover long term retirement costs, nobody locks out investment. You can buy inflation adjusted inuities, nobody offers that as a contract for a certain percentage of your income. Despite having customer bases larger than entire countries, only the government works with a pay as you go system. If the pay as you go system were reliable, robust, and effective someone, somewhere in the private sector would make a killing selling it - nobody does.
I wondered just how long it would take for you to crawl out of the woodwork to add to that Wall of Ignorance you tried to throw up around this thread.

Well, as you still refuse to learn your lesson, it wil be necessary to start off with a basic rundown of the myths commonly floated about Social Security:
The Basics
5 myths about Social Security
System reform is a hotbed of controversy. But to move ahead, we've got to identify the myths, toss them aside and refocus on realities.

By Liz Pulliam Weston


You can’t write about Social Security and not get flooded with angry e-mails representing all points of the political spectrum. From those who dub it “Socialist Insecurity” to those who hold their checks to be an inalienable right, people often have passionate and firmly held beliefs about the system.

Unfortunately, sometimes those beliefs are based on myths. In the interest of more honest debate, let’s review some of these legends.

Myth No.1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you’ll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It’s called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.

What isn’t in the trust fund is a big hoard of cash.

Three-quarters of the money that’s collected in Social Security taxes goes right out the door again in the form of benefits to Social Security recipients. The surplus that isn’t needed to pay benefits is loaned to the federal government to pay for other programs.

In return for this loan, the trust fund gets IOUs in the form of special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. The interest isn’t paid in cash, however; the Treasury department issues the fund additional bonds for the interest amount. Last year, the fund was credited with $80 billion in interest; the total value of the securities is about $1.5 trillion.

Critics often deride these bonds as “a bookkeeping entry” or a fiction, but they’re real obligations of the U.S. government, said Steve Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary. In the past, they’ve been cashed in when Social Security or its sister program, Medicare, temporarily ran low on funds. The last time was in the early 1980s.

“They’re backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government,” Goss said. “They’re every bit as real . . . as any savings bond or Treasury bond any individual might hold in society.”

The problem, of course, is that the government now owes the trust fund so much money -- and relies on its surplus so heavily -- that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued.

Myth No.2: Congress doesn’t pay into Social Security, so it doesn’t care about fixing the crisis. The idea that U.S. lawmakers don’t pay into Social Security is 20 years out of date. Before 1984, U.S. representatives and senators -- like all other federal employees -- weren’t covered by Social Security and didn’t pay into the system. Congress passed a law in 1983, which took effect the next year, requiring all its members (and all federal employees hired after that year) to participate in the system.

This myth is often accompanied by the assertion that Congress participates in a private pension scheme that pays them their salaries for the rest of their lives. In fact, the Civil Service Retirement System, which covered federal employees in earlier decades, was closed to new participants after 1983. The pensions available under this old system depend on the federal worker’s pay and tenure with the government, but by law can’t exceed 80% of the final year’s pay. Benefits paid under the system are reduced by the amount of Social Security the participant receives.

The reason Congress hasn’t fixed the Social Security crisis is politics. The most likely solutions -- raising taxes, cutting benefits, establishing private accounts or some combination of the three -- all face strong opposition. In addition, the people currently receiving benefits are represented by one of the strongest, most politically-connected lobbies in existence: AARP. The 20-something workers who likely will pay the cost for Congressional inaction don’t have nearly the same clout.

Life expectancy and disappearing assets
Myth No.3: Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then. The average life expectancy for a baby girl born in 1935 was about 63 years. For a baby boy, it was about 59 years.

But those statistics reflect the higher infant and child mortality rates of the times. If you survived childhood, you had a good shot of living beyond retirement age. Men who lived to age 30 in 1935 could expect to last another 37 years. Women at 30 had a 40-year average life expectancy.

If you actually reached retirement age, your prospects for a relatively long retirement were good. Men who were 65 in 1935 could expect to live another 12 years, while women faced an average 13 more years. (Today, men of the same age can expect to live another 16 years, and women 19 years.)

In fact, about half of the 30 state pension plans that existed in 1935, and many of the private pension plans, used 65 as a retirement age. Most of the others used age 70. Social Security’s creators thought 65 was the more reasonable age and believed the system could be self-sustaining if they chose that age.

Myth No.4: Social Security will run out of money in 2042. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2042. What may have disappeared by then are the assets in the Social Security trust fund.

Even that isn’t cast in stone, however. The Congressional Budget Office in June projected that the trust fund wouldn’t dry up until 10 years later, in 2052. The CBO used different assumptions than those used by the Social Security Administration, projecting faster growth in worker earnings, higher interest rates and lower inflation.

Here’s how the Social Security Administration projects the timeline:

* In 2018, Social Security will begin paying out more than it takes in. For the first time, it will have to use the interest being paid on the securities it holds in order to meet its obligations.

* In 2028, Social Security would have to start redeeming the securities themselves.

* By 2042, Social Security would have cashed in the last security, and the system would have enough revenue to pay out only 73% of promised benefits. That percentage would drop over time if Congress failed to act.

Demographics and add-ons
Myth No.5: Social Security wouldn’t be having problems if foreigners weren’t able to claim Social Security benefits. The number of checks sent overseas in 2002 totaled 404,640 -- a tiny fraction of the 53 million or so checks Social Security issues annually. Many of those folks may well be Americans who retired abroad (some of whom I profiled in “Retire like royalty in a low-cost paradise”). Social Security doesn’t break down the overseas checks by citizenship.

In any case, foreign workers who live in the United States have to work and pay taxes into the system for at least 10 years to qualify for Social Security benefits, just as U.S. citizens do.

What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.

In 1950, there were 16 workers for every person receiving Social Security benefits. By 2015, there will be only three workers for each beneficiary. Fifteen years after that, the ratio will be down to 2.2 to 1.

Even that demographic shift wouldn’t be such a disaster if Social Security hadn’t expanded far beyond its original mandate of providing retirement benefits for workers. About 30% of Social Security’s total benefits are paid to retirees’ dependents and survivors and to disabled workers.

Here’s a summary of the add-ons over the years:

* In 1939, five years after Social Security began, Congress added payments for the families of workers who died, and for retirees’ dependents (such as stay-at-home spouses).

* In 1956, Congress added disability benefits for workers.

* In 1974, Supplemental Security Income or SSI was established as a welfare program for low-income seniors and people with disabilities.

* In 1965, Congress established Medicare to pay health-care costs for seniors.

Of these add-ons, however, only the first two -- disability benefits and payments to dependents, widows, orphans -- actually affect Social Security’s bottom line.

SSI benefits are paid out of the federal government’s general revenues. Medicare is paid for with its own tax and has its own trust fund.

(Medicare is in far worse shape than Social Security. Medicare’s trustees project insolvency in 2019, 23 years before the earliest date Social Security is scheduled to run aground. Medicare has an unfunded liability of $27.7 trillion over the next 75 years, while Social Security’s unfunded liability for the same period is $3.7 trillion. To put this in perspective, the entire national debt is currently about $7 trillion.)

Like Medicare, the disability insurance program also has its own tax and its own trust fund. But the disability fund’s results are combined with that of the retirement system when Social Security insolvency projections are made, Goss said, and account for $700 billion of the $3.7 trillion unfunded liability.

If the disabled, the dependent and the survivors were booted out of the system, Social Security could pay for itself --assuming tax levels remained the same.

“The system would be more than adequately funded,” Goss said, “if only retirees were receiving benefits.”

That’s not a solution Goss -- or anyone else who really thinks about it -- could endorse. Even if it were morally viable, kicking out all the widows, orphans, disabled and stay-at-home spouses is politically untenable.

So we’re back to choosing from the same controversial list of options: cutting benefits, raising taxes, privatizing some or all of the system. What we choose, though, should be based on the realities of the system -- not the myths.

Liz Pulliam Weston's column appears every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions in the Your Money message board.
Now for the more comprehensive body of evidence against your claims:

THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security he insists points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Congressional Budget Office wrote:An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.

And THIS is a comprehensive analysis of the CBO report which isn't saying that the system is facing eventual collapse at all:
Centre for Economic and Policy Research wrote:Basic Facts on Social Security and Proposed Benefit Cuts/Privatization

Dean Baker and David Rosnick1

November 16, 2004


1) Social Security is Financially Sound

According to the Social Security trustees report, the standard basis for analyzing Social Security, the program can pay all benefits through the year 2042, with no changes whatsoever. Even after 2042 the program would always be able to pay retirees a higher benefit (in today's dollars) than what current retirees receive. The assessment of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office is that Social Security is even stronger. It projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through the year 2052 with no changes whatsoever. By either measure, Social Security is more financially sound today than it has been throughout most of its 69-year history.

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Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


2) President Bush's Social Security Cuts Would Be Large

The proposal that President Bush is using as the basis for his plan phases in cuts over time. A worker who is 45 today can expect to see a cut in guaranteed benefits of around 15 percent. A worker who is age 35 can expect to see a cut in the guaranteed benefit of approximately 25 percent. A 15 year old who is just entering the work force can expect a benefit cut of close to 40 percent. For a 15 year old, this cut would mean a loss of close to $160,000 in Social Security benefits over the course of their retirement.

Private accounts will allow workers to earn back only a small fraction of this amount. For example, a 15 year-old can expect to make back approximately $50,000 from the $160,000 cut with the earnings on a private account. If this worker retires when the market is in a slump, then it could make their loss even bigger.


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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.

3) Imaginary Stock Returns Don't Offset Real Benefit Cuts

Proponents of private accounts have often used highly exaggerated assumptions on stock returns to argue for the benefits of private accounts. For example, even at the height of the stock bubble in 2000, when the price to earnings ratio in the market exceeded 30 to 1, many proponents of private accounts assumed that stocks would generate 7.0 percent real returns annually. This assumption was absurd on its face - it implied that price to earnings ratios would rise to levels of more than 100 to 1. Unfortunately, even the Social Security Administration has used these unfounded assumptions in assessing privatization plans.

Given current price to earnings ratios and the Social Security trustees' profit growth projections, real stock returns will average less than 5.0 percent annually. Some proponents of private accounts are still using exaggerated stock return assumptions to advance their case.


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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


4) Social Security is Extremely Efficient, Private Accounts Are Wasteful

On average, less than 0.6 cents of every dollar paid out in Social Security benefits goes to pay administrative costs. By comparison, systems with individual accounts, like the ones in England or Chile, waste 15 cents of every dollar paid out in benefits on administrative fees. President Bush's Social Security commission estimated that under their system of individual accounts 5 cents of every dollar would go to pay administrative costs.

In addition, under Social Security workers automatically get an annuity (a life-long monthly payment) when they retire. By contrast, financial firms typically take 10 to 20 percent of workers' savings to provide an annuity when they reach retirement.


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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


5) Social Security Pays the Most to Those Who Need it Most

Social Security benefits are highly progressive, so that low wage workers get a much higher share of their wages in benefits than do high wage workers. A worker who earned $10,000 a year during their working lifetime can expect to see a benefit that is equal to approximately 75 percent of their average wage. A worker who earned $33,000 a year will get a benefit that is equal to approximately 45 percent of their wage, while a worker who earned $50,000 on average will get a benefit that is equal to 39 percent of their wage.

While poorer workers do not live as long as higher paid workers, the progressive benefit structure largely offsets differences in life expectancy (as do disability and survivors benefits for those who do not live to normal retirement age). Furthermore, since plans are being made for the distant future, the United States could reduce the gaps in life expectancy by income and race, as other countries have done.


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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


6) The Projected Shortfall is No Larger Than What We Have Seen In Past Decades

It has been necessary to raise Social Security taxes in the past, primarily because people are living longer than they used to. The tax increase that would be needed to make the program fully funded over its seventy five year planning period is actually smaller than tax increases we have seen in prior decades. In other words - it would have made more sense to talk of a Social Security "crisis" in 1965 than in 2005. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office estimates, Social Security can be made solvent throughout its seventy five year planning period with a tax increase that is less than one quarter as large as the one in the eighties.

While tax increases are never popular, the fact is that prior tax increases did not prevent decades like the fifties or sixties from being periods of great prosperity. Of course, if the economy maintains anywhere near its recent pace of growth, any tax increases can be put off for many decades into the future, and possibly forever.



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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


7) Young Workers Will Still See Much Higher Wages If Taxes Are Increased

If it proves necessary to raise more money for Social Security through taxes, workers will still see large increases in their after-tax wages. This is true even if they end up paying a larger share of their wages in Social Security taxes. According to the Social Security trustees' projections, the average after-Social Security tax wage for a worker in 2050, will still be more than 70 percent higher than it is today, even if taxes are raised to keep the program solvent. The CBO projections imply an even larger increase in after-tax wages.

Raising payroll taxes is not the only way to increase the revenue for Social Security. An alternative is to raise the ceiling on taxable wages. Currently, no Social Security taxes are paid on income earned above $87,900 in any given year. If the ceiling were raised to $110,000 to cover 90 percent of the country's income from wages (the level set by the Greenspan commission in 1983), it would eliminate approximately 40 percent of the projected funding shortfall. Using the CBO projections, this change alone would be almost enough to make the program solvent through the seventy-five year planning period.


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Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


8 ) The Bush Proposal Phases Out Social Security as We Know It

President Bush's proposal gradually shrinks the traditional guaranteed Social Security so that it will eventually become irrelevant for middle income workers. For today's twenty year old average wage earners, the guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 15 percent of their annual earnings when they reach retirement age. The guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 7 percent of annual earnings for a child born ten years from now.

As the traditional Social Security benefit becomes less important for middle-income workers, Social Security will increasingly become a poor people's program. This may be a clever strategy if the purpose is to undermine political support for Social Security; it is not a good way to structure the program if we expect it to be there for our children and grandchildren.


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Source: President’s Commission to Strengthen Social Security and Author’s Calculations.



Footnotes:

1. Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy research., David Rosnick, provided research assistance and or comments on earlier drafts of this paper.
And THIS analysis also disputes the ideology that Social Security is facing "perpetual shortfall" and is therefore unfixable:
Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROJECTIONS ISSUED BY THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE
by Robert Greenstein, Peter Orszag and Richard Kogan


A new Congressional Budget Office analysis released today, which has been several years in the making, projects that the long-term shortfall in Social Security financing is 47 percent smaller than the Social Security Trustees have projected.

* The Trustees project that the Social Security shortfall over the next 75 years equals 1.89 percent of taxable payroll over the 75-year period. CBO projects the shortfall to be 1.0 percent of taxable payroll, or 47 percent less than the Trustees project.

* Measured as a share of the economy, the Trustees project that the shortfall equals 0.7 percent of GDP over the next 75 years. The CBO figures reflect a shortfall of about 0.4 percent of GDP.

* Similarly, the Trustees project that the trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits starting in 2042. CBO’s estimate is 2052; after that time about 80 percent of benefits could be paid.

These differences are due primarily to differences in economic assumptions, along with methodological differences.

CBO’s report emphasizes other measures of the imbalance in Social Security. The figures reported above reflect the traditional 75-year actuarial measure, which has long been used to examine Social Security’s finances.

Implications for Social Security

Two important books written by four of the nation’s leading Social Security experts — Countdown to Reform: The Great Social Security Debate by Henry Aaron and Robert Reischauer, and Saving Social Security: A Balanced Approach by Peter Diamond and Peter Orszag — have shown, using the Trustees’ projections, that long-term Social Security solvency can be restored by modest benefit and payroll tax changes that are phased in over a number of years. These books, as well as proposals developed by other experts, have shown that radical changes in Social Security’s structure — including the replacement of part of Social Security with private accounts that carry greater risk for individual beneficiaries — are not necessary to restore long-term solvency.

The new CBO estimates strongly underscore this point. Under the CBO projections, the benefit and tax changes needed to restore long-term solvency would be still more modest.

The Size of the Bush Tax Cuts and
the Size of the Actuarial Imbalance in the Social Security Trust Fund

As a percent of GDP

Year trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits

Social Security trust fund 75-year actuarial imbalance:


March 2004 Trustees’ Report
0.7 %
2042


June 2004 CBO report
0.4 %
2052


75-year cost of 2001-2003 tax cuts, if extended as proposed by the President:


Total cost of tax cuts
2.0 %


Tax cuts for the top one percent
0.6 %


Note: Estimates of the costs of the tax cuts derived from data supplied by the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, and assume that the tax cuts are continued the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation. Share of the tax cuts for the top one percent based on estimates provided by the Tax Policy Center


Implications for the Federal Budget as a Whole

If CBO is ultimately proved right and the Social Security shortfall is only about three-fifths the size previously thought, the required changes to restore financial balance to Social Security will be significantly smaller. Unfortunately, this will not have large implications for the budget as a whole. The nation’s long-term budget problems will be little changed if the new CBO Social Security projection is used, because Social Security is responsible for only a modest fraction of our long-term fiscal problems. Projected increases in Medicare and Medicaid costs, due to the aging of the population and the relentless rise in health care costs throughout the U.S. health care system (including the private sector), constitute a much larger factor. So do tax cuts. As the next section of this brief analysis indicates, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, their cost will dwarf the Social Security shortfall.

Social Security’s modest impact on the nation’s long-term budget problems are confirmed by projections of the long-term “fiscal gap” — the amount by which revenues must be raised and/or spending cut in order to stabilize the federal debt as a share of the economy and prevent a debt explosion that could cause serious economic damage. Economists Alan Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley and William Gale and Peter Orszag of Brookings have estimated the size of the fiscal gap over the next 75 years to be an alarming 7.2 percent of GDP.[1] Their estimate incorporates the Social Security Trustees’ projection of the Social Security shortfall. If the new CBO projection of the Social Security shortfall is used instead, the size of the long-term fiscal gap drops only a few tenths of a percentage point and remains close to 7 percent of GDP. Stated another way, at least 95 percent of the projected long-term fiscal gap remains.


Cost of the Tax Cuts Compared to the Size of the Social Security Shortfall

If the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent as the Administration has proposed, their cost over the next 75 years will be more than five times the Social Security shortfall over this period, as projected by CBO. In fact, the cost over the next 75 years of the tax cuts just for the one percent of households with the highest incomes — a group with average incomes of about $1 million per year — exceeds the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall that CBO projects.[2]


This does not mean that policymakers should avoid Social Security reform and simply cancel the high end of the tax cut instead. Given the need to reduce the very large long-term deficits the nation faces and to address other costly problems, such as how to finance health care programs and deal with the growing numbers of uninsured Americans, the bulk of the savings that would be achieved from scaling back the tax cuts will be needed elsewhere. Simply filling Social Security’s financing hole with funds from the rest of the budget, and avoiding making any changes in Social Security itself, would not be responsible.

Nevertheless, this comparison showing that the cost of the tax cuts for the most affluent one percent of taxpayers exceeds the entire Social Security shortfall is useful in illustrating why the tax cuts are unaffordable, and why making them permanent does not represent sound or responsible policy. This comparison also should cause ideologically driven claims made by those who assert that the tax cuts are reasonable and prudent but that the Social Security shortfall is gargantuan and catastrophic to be viewed with skepticism.


Estate Tax Reform Can Contribute to Social Security Solvency

Although the bulk of savings from scaling back the tax cuts should not be dedicated to Social Security and other Social Security reforms are essential, it is reasonable to consider dedicating the revenue that could be secured from one specific change in the 2001 tax cut to a larger Social Security reform effort. CBO’s new projections should spark increased interest in the idea of reforming rather than repealing the estate tax, by limiting the estate tax on a permanent basis to the tiny number of very large estates that will still be subject to the tax in 2009, and dedicating the estate tax revenues that remain to the Social Security Trust Fund. Diamond and Orszag, in their recent book on Social Security reform, suggest consideration of this option. Under the new CBO estimates, adopting this approach would reduce the size of the Social Security shortfall by about 40 percent.

* In 2001, before the large tax cut enacted that year took effect, estates worth less than $675,000 for an individual and $1.35 million for a couple were exempt from the estate tax. As a result, the estates of about 98 percent of Americans who died were exempt from the tax.

* By 2009, estates worth up to $3.5 million for an individual and $7 million for a couple will be exempt from the estate tax. Data from the Urban Institute-Brookings Tax Policy Center show that the estates of 99.7 percent of Americans who die will be exempt from the tax in 2009.[3]

* This means that going beyond the estate tax parameters that will be in effect in 2009 and repealing the estate tax altogether would benefit the estates of only the wealthiest 0.3 percent (i.e., the wealthiest three of every 1,000) people who die. Those would be the only estates that otherwise would still be subject to the tax.

* If instead, the estate tax is retained for this very small group of estates and the estate tax proceeds are dedicated to Social Security, approximately 40 percent of CBO’s projected Social Security shortfall would be closed.

Tax Policy Center data show that if this step is not taken and the estate tax is repealed, more than half of the tax-cut benefits that result from repealing the tax rather than retaining it at its 2009 parameters will go to roughly the 500 biggest estates each year. These very large estates will reap a tax-cut benefit worth an average of more than $15 million per estate.

Closing about 40 percent of the Social Security shortfall that CBO projects (or about 25 percent of the shortfall that the Social Security Trustees project) seems a much sounder use of these resources than eliminating the estate tax entirely in order to provide lavish tax-cut benefits to the estates of the nation’s richest individuals. It also should be noted that under the estate-tax reform proposal described here, the small number of very large estates that would continue owing estate tax would themselves receive a hefty reduction in the estate tax that they must pay, compared with the amounts that such estates pay today, since the first $7 million of the assets in these large estates would be exempt from the tax.


Conclusion

CBO’s projections of a substantially smaller Social Security deficit over the next 75 years are an important addition to the Social Security debate. It is not possible to determine at this point whether the CBO projection or the Trustees’ projection is the better one. The sources of the differences between the two projections are the subject of active examination and debate by Social Security experts.

Even under the Trustees’ assumptions, Social Security solvency can be restored with modest program reforms. The CBO projections only underscore this point. Radical changes in the program are not necessary to restore solvency. The CBO projections also underscore the fact that Social Security is responsible for only a relatively modest share of the nation’s serious long-term fiscal gap. The recent tax cuts, if made permanent, will be a significantly larger contributor to our long-term fiscal problems. Indeed, as this analysis explains, the cost of the tax cuts just for the top one percent of households will be larger over the next 75 years than the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall under the CBO projections. Finally, as discussed above, consideration should be given to retaining the estate tax at its shrunken 2009 parameters rather than repealing it altogether, and dedicating the remaining estate tax revenues to Social Security as part of a larger reform that shores up the program for the long term.


End Notes:

[1] Alan J. Auerbach, William G. Gale, and Peter R. Orszag, “Sources of the Long-term Gap,” Tax Notes, May 24, 2004.

[2] The figures cited here for the cost of the 2001, 2002, and 2003 tax cuts represent their cost (in present value, as a percentage of GDP) through 2078 if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are extended and made permanent in the way that the Administration has proposed. Our estimate of the cost of the tax cuts — 2.0 percent of GDP — is based on estimates by CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation. The estimate also assumes that the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation, using CBO figures published in January 2004 in its baseline report. Although CBO’s estimate of the cost of indexing the AMT is not directly added to our figures, CBO’s data show that under an indexed AMT, the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would be more expensive because the AMT would “take back” less of these tax cuts. It is this incremental cost that is included in our estimate. We assume that after 2014, the cost of the tax cuts remains a constant share of GDP, an assumption that is very likely to be conservative. The resulting estimate of the long-term cost of the tax cuts (2.0 percent of GDP) is slightly smaller than the estimate of 2.2 percent of GDP from the Auerbach, Gale, and Orszag paper, op cit. The difference mostly arises from small methodological differences in how the AMT is reflected in the figures.

[3] The Tax Policy Center data estimate the number of estates that will still be subject to the estate tax in 2009. This figure represents 0.3 percent of the number of deaths projected to occur in 2009. For the purposes of determining total deaths (estates) in each year, the TPC model uses the 1996 U.S. Annuity Basic Tables available on the website of the Society of Actuaries (http://www.soa.org) combined with age-specific population data reported by the Bureau of the Census.


This website offers a few quick-reference charts and figures indicating that U.S. population is projected to increase by 47% from its 2000 level over the next 46 years taking into account both birthrate and immigration. Without immigration, that increase would be only 16%. As this note at NPG outlines:

Negative Population Growth wrote:FAST FACTS ABOUT U.S. POPULATION GROWTH

The United States has the highest growth rates of any industrialized country in the world.

*The U.S. population is growing by about 3.2 million people each year.

*Using the Census Bureau's medium projections, U.S. population is expected to grow to 400 million by the year 2050. Eight states have population growth rates over 2.0%, which means their population will double in less than 35 years. Florida’s population has grown from 1.9 million in 1940 to 15 million today. That is over a 600% increase in just 50 years.
Oh, and if you wish to indulge an Attacking the Messenger Fallacy against NPG on ideological grounds to try to discount the facts given, this little dynamic population pyramid graphic at the U.S. Census website should underline the facts quite effectively.

And to reinforce the point, from the tables at this page from the U.S. Census website:
United States/2005
Total, all ages 295,734,134

United States/2010
Total, all ages 309,162,581

United States/2015
Total, all ages 322,592,787

United States/2020
Total, all ages 336,031,546

United States/2025
Total, all ages 349,666,199

United States/2030
Total, all ages 363,811,435

United States/2035
Total, all ages 378,113,238

United States/2040
Total, all ages 392,172,658

United States/2045
Total, all ages 406,089,392

United States/2050
Total, all ages 420,080,587
From there, the tables break down into population by sex and age groups. Furthermore, even the application of basic mathematics shows that the retirement-age percentage of the population will comprise only about 20% of the total U.S. population by 2045, with the working age percentage hovering around 53%; sufficient base to support the Social Security system.

The numbers clearly undercut the Chicken-Little bullshit that the U.S. population is going to flatten out or go into steady decline and that therefore Social Security will become untenable due to a shrinking base.

To sum up the basic facts and figures:

• Social Security is projected to remain quite solvent through 2052, and that even if there are no changes in the structure of benefits as defined in current law, retirees will still be receiving higher proportions of benefits than the generations which proceeded them. The Congressional Budget Office report is in no way suggesting that the system is facing eventual collapse or that it is unfixable, but merely projecting possible trends as a guide to legislation, as has been done numerous times in the past.

• To fix the present projected imbalance would require little more than rescinding the more irresponsible of Bush's tax-cuts to the top 1% of earners (which threatens a general budgetary shortfall five times greater than the projected Social Security shortfall) and to raise the cap on the payroll tax to the $110,000 mark, while reforming the Estate Tax to asses only those estates valued at $7 million or above. These are, at most, minor adjustments to the present tax system which would more or less restore the pre-Bush status-quo.

• The payroll-tax increases required to support Social Security's long-term solvency at this point would amount to less than a quarter of the tax increases passed by Congress in the 1980s and signed into law by Ronald Reagan to ensure the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund twenty years ago.

• The present condition of the Social Security system, even with the projected shortfall, is far better than what was projected back in 1965.

• Projected population trends clearly show the the U.S. population will increase by about 47% beyond the 2000 census level to a population of 408 million, factoring in both birthrate and immigration. Furthermore, the proportion of retirees to working-age members of the society of 2045 and 2050 is going to remain very clearly slanted in favour of the working age percentile. There is no demographic time-bomb ticking away which will explode the contributor base for Social Security.

In short, there is no immediate or looming crisis which requires the radical solution of privatisation, no matter how much you scream hysterically to the contrary and ignore, distort, or outright misrepresent the evidence. And if you insist on continuing to pile up your Wall of Ignorance ever higher, it will simply be necessary to keep burying you with the truth until you've had enough.
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tharkûn
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Post by tharkûn »

Well, as you still refuse to learn your lesson, it wil be necessary to start off with a basic rundown of the myths commonly floated about Social Security:
Name one myth I have stated here. I have read this peice before and I have not argued ANY of those point. GIANT IRRELEVENT Red Herring

Myth No.1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you’ll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It’s called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.
I have never disputed that such a collection of US government securities exist, however the points are that such securities are not without their own risks, that the US government will have to drastically alter future budgets to cash out the debt, and that the only way to do so is taise taxes, float more debt, or slash something else in the budget. " that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued."
Myth No.2: Congress doesn’t pay into Social Security
I have never argued this.
Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then
This statement is going to depend upon how one quantifies "most"; in any event I have never built my case off the reasoning for picking age 65.
Social Security will run out of money in 2042. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2042.
Not argued at all. My point has been that under current rules on the book the money coming in won't match the money going out. Changing the assumptions in the model can move the date (either way) but that date will come under the current rules.
Social Security wouldn’t be having problems if foreigners weren’t able to claim Social Security
Haven't ever touched this one.

What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.
In other words the same exact problems I have stated that are inherent to pay as you go systems.
later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid
Concession accepted.
And THIS is a comprehensive analysis of the CBO report which isn't saying that the system is facing eventual collapse at all:
THIS happens to state in no uncertain terms that it will be paying out more money than it takes in under the current rules. The authors continunially come back to the point that in 1965 the system wasn't stable or sustainable; it wasn't. The pay as you go system under stable, ideal conditions breaks even. One can increase taxation or cut benifits, however these numbers only delay the inevitable. Their solution is an overhaul of the payroll tax that is a more progressive tax hike. All that does is move the date further away, not make the system robust.


So please quit quoting crap I have already read. They all come back to the same basic points:
1. The system won't go bust on 2042 it will start paying out more than it receives at some later date.
2. If only the taxes were increased, then everything would be better.
3. Occassionally you will see someone talking about freezing benifits, normally by adjusting the retirement age against life expectancy, this would solve the problem, but pardon me if I think it has the political prospects of a snowball in hell.



• To fix the present projected imbalance would require little more than rescinding the more irresponsible of Bush's tax-cuts to the top 1% of earners (which threatens a general budgetary shortfall five times greater than the projected Social Security shortfall) and to raise the cap on the payroll tax to the $110,000 mark, while reforming the Estate Tax to asses only those estates valued at $7 million or above. These are, at most, minor adjustments to the present tax system which would more or less restore the pre-Bush status-quo.
No it would require either changing the means by which social security generates revenue. In any event such a tax increase merely moves the problem beyond the 75 year planning window, it does not make the system more robust.
• The payroll-tax increases required to support Social Security's long-term solvency at this point would amount to less than a quarter of the tax increases passed by Congress in the 1980s and signed into law by Ronald Reagan to ensure the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund twenty years ago.
Who frikking cares? George Bush's tax cuts were smaller than Kennedy's and those paled compared to Mellon's. Relative size here is irrelevant, it is the cumulative effect that counts.

And it isn't going to be social security alone that requires a tax hike. All that debt in the trust fund - either float more or tax. Medicare? Take hike. The previously accrued debt?

There is a limit to high high a government can push the rate of taxation and get an appreciable increase in government revenue.
• The present condition of the Social Security system, even with the projected shortfall, is far better than what was projected back in 1965.
Who frikking cares? Why again is this comparison relevent?
• Projected population trends clearly show the the U.S. population will increase by about 47% beyond the 2000 census level to a population of 408 million, factoring in both birthrate and immigration. Furthermore, the proportion of retirees to working-age members of the society of 2045 and 2050 is going to remain very clearly slanted in favour of the working age percentile. There is no demographic time-bomb ticking away which will explode the contributor base for Social Security.
No there is going to be a slow decline as fewer individuals enter the workforce right out of highschool, and as life expectancies increase. Remember immigrants live longer and push the life expectancy even further out.

Projecting population is a dangerous job; immigration patterns will not remain static and as Nitram has already pointed out neither do birthrates.
In short, there is no immediate or looming crisis which requires the radical solution of privatisation, no matter how much you scream hysterically to the contrary and ignore, distort, or outright misrepresent the evidence. And if you insist on continuing to pile up your Wall of Ignorance ever higher, it will simply be necessary to keep burying you with the truth until you've had enough.
The truth that you keep avoiding in favor of reposting articles verbatum is that the problem with social security is not just a matter of insufficient funding, but WHY it needs more funding at all. The answer is simple: it is a pay as you go system. Without an expanding revenue base (created by population or rising wages) social security is up a creek without a paddle. You continiously ignore the point about STABILITY and robustness in favour of reposting articles hacking away at strawmen positions others besides myself hold.

Don't bother posting another article verbatum, because as I thought NOT ONE of them even bothered to consider what happens if real wages fall, population growth doesn't remain on projected trendlines, or any of the other possibly wrong assumptions in the model (unless they thought the error would make the problem easier to manage). I may be wrong, but you should have the reading comprension ability to pull relevent facts and figures and make your points in your own words.

Please desist with vomitting forth copious irrelevent copy and paste when the majority of the article is irrelevent.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

tharkûn wrote:Name one myth I have stated here. I have read this peice before and I have not argued ANY of those point. GIANT IRRELEVENT Red Herring
Will it really be necessary to go through the entire record of this thread? Your entire position has been that Social Security will collapse and that the only viable alternative is privatisation. You have continually stated that a situation of perpetual shortfall is looming and that the contributor base is shrinking to the point of rendering the system unviable. And no matter how many times these points have been refuted, you keep coming back and restating them ad-infinitum. To give a few examples:

•I have never disputed that such a collection of US government securities exist, however the points are that such securities are not without their own risks, that the US government will have to drastically alter future budgets to cash out the debt, and that the only way to do so is taise taxes, float more debt, or slash something else in the budget. " that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued."

•My point has been that under current rules on the book the money coming in won't match the money going out. Changing the assumptions in the model can move the date (either way) but that date will come under the current rules.

•In other words the same exact problems I have stated that are inherent to pay as you go systems.

*THIS happens to state in no uncertain terms that it will be paying out more money than it takes in under the current rules. The authors continunially come back to the point that in 1965 the system wasn't stable or sustainable; it wasn't. The pay as you go system under stable, ideal conditions breaks even. One can increase taxation or cut benifits, however these numbers only delay the inevitable. Their solution is an overhaul of the payroll tax that is a more progressive tax hike. All that does is move the date further away, not make the system robust.

•No it would require either changing the means by which social security generates revenue. In any event such a tax increase merely moves the problem beyond the 75 year planning window, it does not make the system more robust.

•George Bush's tax cuts were smaller than Kennedy's and those paled compared to Mellon's. Relative size here is irrelevant, it is the cumulative effect that counts.

*No there is going to be a slow decline as fewer individuals enter the workforce right out of highschool, and as life expectancies increase. Remember immigrants live longer and push the life expectancy even further out.

*The truth that you keep avoiding in favor of reposting articles verbatum is that the problem with social security is not just a matter of insufficient funding, but WHY it needs more funding at all. The answer is simple: it is a pay as you go system. Without an expanding revenue base (created by population or rising wages) social security is up a creek without a paddle. You continiously ignore the point about STABILITY and robustness in favour of reposting articles hacking away at strawmen positions others besides myself hold.
Just one regurgitation of your basic package-bullshit after another after another after another.
Don't bother posting another article verbatum, because as I thought NOT ONE of them even bothered to consider what happens if real wages fall, population growth doesn't remain on projected trendlines, or any of the other possibly wrong assumptions in the model (unless they thought the error would make the problem easier to manage). I may be wrong, but you should have the reading comprension ability to pull relevent facts and figures and make your points in your own words.

Please desist with vomitting forth copious irrelevent copy and paste when the majority of the article is irrelevent.
VERY relevant: as the material counters substantively the huge False Dilemma you keep trying to put forth: privatise or face disaster.

And this is my way of telling you to go fuck yourself:

A basic rundown of the myths commonly floated about Social Security:
The Basics
5 myths about Social Security
System reform is a hotbed of controversy. But to move ahead, we've got to identify the myths, toss them aside and refocus on realities.

By Liz Pulliam Weston


You can’t write about Social Security and not get flooded with angry e-mails representing all points of the political spectrum. From those who dub it “Socialist Insecurity” to those who hold their checks to be an inalienable right, people often have passionate and firmly held beliefs about the system.

Unfortunately, sometimes those beliefs are based on myths. In the interest of more honest debate, let’s review some of these legends.

Myth No.1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you’ll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It’s called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.

What isn’t in the trust fund is a big hoard of cash.

Three-quarters of the money that’s collected in Social Security taxes goes right out the door again in the form of benefits to Social Security recipients. The surplus that isn’t needed to pay benefits is loaned to the federal government to pay for other programs.

In return for this loan, the trust fund gets IOUs in the form of special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. The interest isn’t paid in cash, however; the Treasury department issues the fund additional bonds for the interest amount. Last year, the fund was credited with $80 billion in interest; the total value of the securities is about $1.5 trillion.

Critics often deride these bonds as “a bookkeeping entry” or a fiction, but they’re real obligations of the U.S. government, said Steve Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary. In the past, they’ve been cashed in when Social Security or its sister program, Medicare, temporarily ran low on funds. The last time was in the early 1980s.

“They’re backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government,” Goss said. “They’re every bit as real . . . as any savings bond or Treasury bond any individual might hold in society.”

The problem, of course, is that the government now owes the trust fund so much money -- and relies on its surplus so heavily -- that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued.

Myth No.2: Congress doesn’t pay into Social Security, so it doesn’t care about fixing the crisis. The idea that U.S. lawmakers don’t pay into Social Security is 20 years out of date. Before 1984, U.S. representatives and senators -- like all other federal employees -- weren’t covered by Social Security and didn’t pay into the system. Congress passed a law in 1983, which took effect the next year, requiring all its members (and all federal employees hired after that year) to participate in the system.

This myth is often accompanied by the assertion that Congress participates in a private pension scheme that pays them their salaries for the rest of their lives. In fact, the Civil Service Retirement System, which covered federal employees in earlier decades, was closed to new participants after 1983. The pensions available under this old system depend on the federal worker’s pay and tenure with the government, but by law can’t exceed 80% of the final year’s pay. Benefits paid under the system are reduced by the amount of Social Security the participant receives.

The reason Congress hasn’t fixed the Social Security crisis is politics. The most likely solutions -- raising taxes, cutting benefits, establishing private accounts or some combination of the three -- all face strong opposition. In addition, the people currently receiving benefits are represented by one of the strongest, most politically-connected lobbies in existence: AARP. The 20-something workers who likely will pay the cost for Congressional inaction don’t have nearly the same clout.

Life expectancy and disappearing assets
Myth No.3: Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then. The average life expectancy for a baby girl born in 1935 was about 63 years. For a baby boy, it was about 59 years.

But those statistics reflect the higher infant and child mortality rates of the times. If you survived childhood, you had a good shot of living beyond retirement age. Men who lived to age 30 in 1935 could expect to last another 37 years. Women at 30 had a 40-year average life expectancy.

If you actually reached retirement age, your prospects for a relatively long retirement were good. Men who were 65 in 1935 could expect to live another 12 years, while women faced an average 13 more years. (Today, men of the same age can expect to live another 16 years, and women 19 years.)

In fact, about half of the 30 state pension plans that existed in 1935, and many of the private pension plans, used 65 as a retirement age. Most of the others used age 70. Social Security’s creators thought 65 was the more reasonable age and believed the system could be self-sustaining if they chose that age.

Myth No.4: Social Security will run out of money in 2042. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2042. What may have disappeared by then are the assets in the Social Security trust fund.

Even that isn’t cast in stone, however. The Congressional Budget Office in June projected that the trust fund wouldn’t dry up until 10 years later, in 2052. The CBO used different assumptions than those used by the Social Security Administration, projecting faster growth in worker earnings, higher interest rates and lower inflation.

Here’s how the Social Security Administration projects the timeline:

* In 2018, Social Security will begin paying out more than it takes in. For the first time, it will have to use the interest being paid on the securities it holds in order to meet its obligations.

* In 2028, Social Security would have to start redeeming the securities themselves.

* By 2042, Social Security would have cashed in the last security, and the system would have enough revenue to pay out only 73% of promised benefits. That percentage would drop over time if Congress failed to act.

Demographics and add-ons
Myth No.5: Social Security wouldn’t be having problems if foreigners weren’t able to claim Social Security benefits. The number of checks sent overseas in 2002 totaled 404,640 -- a tiny fraction of the 53 million or so checks Social Security issues annually. Many of those folks may well be Americans who retired abroad (some of whom I profiled in “Retire like royalty in a low-cost paradise”). Social Security doesn’t break down the overseas checks by citizenship.

In any case, foreign workers who live in the United States have to work and pay taxes into the system for at least 10 years to qualify for Social Security benefits, just as U.S. citizens do.

What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.

In 1950, there were 16 workers for every person receiving Social Security benefits. By 2015, there will be only three workers for each beneficiary. Fifteen years after that, the ratio will be down to 2.2 to 1.

Even that demographic shift wouldn’t be such a disaster if Social Security hadn’t expanded far beyond its original mandate of providing retirement benefits for workers. About 30% of Social Security’s total benefits are paid to retirees’ dependents and survivors and to disabled workers.

Here’s a summary of the add-ons over the years:

* In 1939, five years after Social Security began, Congress added payments for the families of workers who died, and for retirees’ dependents (such as stay-at-home spouses).

* In 1956, Congress added disability benefits for workers.

* In 1974, Supplemental Security Income or SSI was established as a welfare program for low-income seniors and people with disabilities.

* In 1965, Congress established Medicare to pay health-care costs for seniors.

Of these add-ons, however, only the first two -- disability benefits and payments to dependents, widows, orphans -- actually affect Social Security’s bottom line.

SSI benefits are paid out of the federal government’s general revenues. Medicare is paid for with its own tax and has its own trust fund.

(Medicare is in far worse shape than Social Security. Medicare’s trustees project insolvency in 2019, 23 years before the earliest date Social Security is scheduled to run aground. Medicare has an unfunded liability of $27.7 trillion over the next 75 years, while Social Security’s unfunded liability for the same period is $3.7 trillion. To put this in perspective, the entire national debt is currently about $7 trillion.)

Like Medicare, the disability insurance program also has its own tax and its own trust fund. But the disability fund’s results are combined with that of the retirement system when Social Security insolvency projections are made, Goss said, and account for $700 billion of the $3.7 trillion unfunded liability.

If the disabled, the dependent and the survivors were booted out of the system, Social Security could pay for itself --assuming tax levels remained the same.

“The system would be more than adequately funded,” Goss said, “if only retirees were receiving benefits.”

That’s not a solution Goss -- or anyone else who really thinks about it -- could endorse. Even if it were morally viable, kicking out all the widows, orphans, disabled and stay-at-home spouses is politically untenable.

So we’re back to choosing from the same controversial list of options: cutting benefits, raising taxes, privatizing some or all of the system. What we choose, though, should be based on the realities of the system -- not the myths.

Liz Pulliam Weston's column appears every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions in the Your Money message board.
Now for the more comprehensive body of evidence against your claims:

THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security he insists points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Congressional Budget Office wrote:An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.

And THIS is a comprehensive analysis of the CBO report which isn't saying that the system is facing eventual collapse at all:
Centre for Economic and Policy Research wrote:Basic Facts on Social Security and Proposed Benefit Cuts/Privatization

Dean Baker and David Rosnick1

November 16, 2004


1) Social Security is Financially Sound

According to the Social Security trustees report, the standard basis for analyzing Social Security, the program can pay all benefits through the year 2042, with no changes whatsoever. Even after 2042 the program would always be able to pay retirees a higher benefit (in today's dollars) than what current retirees receive. The assessment of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office is that Social Security is even stronger. It projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through the year 2052 with no changes whatsoever. By either measure, Social Security is more financially sound today than it has been throughout most of its 69-year history.

Image
Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


2) President Bush's Social Security Cuts Would Be Large

The proposal that President Bush is using as the basis for his plan phases in cuts over time. A worker who is 45 today can expect to see a cut in guaranteed benefits of around 15 percent. A worker who is age 35 can expect to see a cut in the guaranteed benefit of approximately 25 percent. A 15 year old who is just entering the work force can expect a benefit cut of close to 40 percent. For a 15 year old, this cut would mean a loss of close to $160,000 in Social Security benefits over the course of their retirement.

Private accounts will allow workers to earn back only a small fraction of this amount. For example, a 15 year-old can expect to make back approximately $50,000 from the $160,000 cut with the earnings on a private account. If this worker retires when the market is in a slump, then it could make their loss even bigger.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.

3) Imaginary Stock Returns Don't Offset Real Benefit Cuts

Proponents of private accounts have often used highly exaggerated assumptions on stock returns to argue for the benefits of private accounts. For example, even at the height of the stock bubble in 2000, when the price to earnings ratio in the market exceeded 30 to 1, many proponents of private accounts assumed that stocks would generate 7.0 percent real returns annually. This assumption was absurd on its face - it implied that price to earnings ratios would rise to levels of more than 100 to 1. Unfortunately, even the Social Security Administration has used these unfounded assumptions in assessing privatization plans.

Given current price to earnings ratios and the Social Security trustees' profit growth projections, real stock returns will average less than 5.0 percent annually. Some proponents of private accounts are still using exaggerated stock return assumptions to advance their case.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


4) Social Security is Extremely Efficient, Private Accounts Are Wasteful

On average, less than 0.6 cents of every dollar paid out in Social Security benefits goes to pay administrative costs. By comparison, systems with individual accounts, like the ones in England or Chile, waste 15 cents of every dollar paid out in benefits on administrative fees. President Bush's Social Security commission estimated that under their system of individual accounts 5 cents of every dollar would go to pay administrative costs.

In addition, under Social Security workers automatically get an annuity (a life-long monthly payment) when they retire. By contrast, financial firms typically take 10 to 20 percent of workers' savings to provide an annuity when they reach retirement.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


5) Social Security Pays the Most to Those Who Need it Most

Social Security benefits are highly progressive, so that low wage workers get a much higher share of their wages in benefits than do high wage workers. A worker who earned $10,000 a year during their working lifetime can expect to see a benefit that is equal to approximately 75 percent of their average wage. A worker who earned $33,000 a year will get a benefit that is equal to approximately 45 percent of their wage, while a worker who earned $50,000 on average will get a benefit that is equal to 39 percent of their wage.

While poorer workers do not live as long as higher paid workers, the progressive benefit structure largely offsets differences in life expectancy (as do disability and survivors benefits for those who do not live to normal retirement age). Furthermore, since plans are being made for the distant future, the United States could reduce the gaps in life expectancy by income and race, as other countries have done.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


6) The Projected Shortfall is No Larger Than What We Have Seen In Past Decades

It has been necessary to raise Social Security taxes in the past, primarily because people are living longer than they used to. The tax increase that would be needed to make the program fully funded over its seventy five year planning period is actually smaller than tax increases we have seen in prior decades. In other words - it would have made more sense to talk of a Social Security "crisis" in 1965 than in 2005. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office estimates, Social Security can be made solvent throughout its seventy five year planning period with a tax increase that is less than one quarter as large as the one in the eighties.

While tax increases are never popular, the fact is that prior tax increases did not prevent decades like the fifties or sixties from being periods of great prosperity. Of course, if the economy maintains anywhere near its recent pace of growth, any tax increases can be put off for many decades into the future, and possibly forever.



Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


7) Young Workers Will Still See Much Higher Wages If Taxes Are Increased

If it proves necessary to raise more money for Social Security through taxes, workers will still see large increases in their after-tax wages. This is true even if they end up paying a larger share of their wages in Social Security taxes. According to the Social Security trustees' projections, the average after-Social Security tax wage for a worker in 2050, will still be more than 70 percent higher than it is today, even if taxes are raised to keep the program solvent. The CBO projections imply an even larger increase in after-tax wages.

Raising payroll taxes is not the only way to increase the revenue for Social Security. An alternative is to raise the ceiling on taxable wages. Currently, no Social Security taxes are paid on income earned above $87,900 in any given year. If the ceiling were raised to $110,000 to cover 90 percent of the country's income from wages (the level set by the Greenspan commission in 1983), it would eliminate approximately 40 percent of the projected funding shortfall. Using the CBO projections, this change alone would be almost enough to make the program solvent through the seventy-five year planning period.


Image
Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


8 ) The Bush Proposal Phases Out Social Security as We Know It

President Bush's proposal gradually shrinks the traditional guaranteed Social Security so that it will eventually become irrelevant for middle income workers. For today's twenty year old average wage earners, the guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 15 percent of their annual earnings when they reach retirement age. The guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 7 percent of annual earnings for a child born ten years from now.

As the traditional Social Security benefit becomes less important for middle-income workers, Social Security will increasingly become a poor people's program. This may be a clever strategy if the purpose is to undermine political support for Social Security; it is not a good way to structure the program if we expect it to be there for our children and grandchildren.


Image
Source: President’s Commission to Strengthen Social Security and Author’s Calculations.



Footnotes:

1. Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy research., David Rosnick, provided research assistance and or comments on earlier drafts of this paper.
And THIS analysis also disputes the ideology that Social Security is facing "perpetual shortfall" and is therefore unfixable:
Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROJECTIONS ISSUED BY THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE
by Robert Greenstein, Peter Orszag and Richard Kogan


A new Congressional Budget Office analysis released today, which has been several years in the making, projects that the long-term shortfall in Social Security financing is 47 percent smaller than the Social Security Trustees have projected.

* The Trustees project that the Social Security shortfall over the next 75 years equals 1.89 percent of taxable payroll over the 75-year period. CBO projects the shortfall to be 1.0 percent of taxable payroll, or 47 percent less than the Trustees project.

* Measured as a share of the economy, the Trustees project that the shortfall equals 0.7 percent of GDP over the next 75 years. The CBO figures reflect a shortfall of about 0.4 percent of GDP.

* Similarly, the Trustees project that the trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits starting in 2042. CBO’s estimate is 2052; after that time about 80 percent of benefits could be paid.

These differences are due primarily to differences in economic assumptions, along with methodological differences.

CBO’s report emphasizes other measures of the imbalance in Social Security. The figures reported above reflect the traditional 75-year actuarial measure, which has long been used to examine Social Security’s finances.

Implications for Social Security

Two important books written by four of the nation’s leading Social Security experts — Countdown to Reform: The Great Social Security Debate by Henry Aaron and Robert Reischauer, and Saving Social Security: A Balanced Approach by Peter Diamond and Peter Orszag — have shown, using the Trustees’ projections, that long-term Social Security solvency can be restored by modest benefit and payroll tax changes that are phased in over a number of years. These books, as well as proposals developed by other experts, have shown that radical changes in Social Security’s structure — including the replacement of part of Social Security with private accounts that carry greater risk for individual beneficiaries — are not necessary to restore long-term solvency.

The new CBO estimates strongly underscore this point. Under the CBO projections, the benefit and tax changes needed to restore long-term solvency would be still more modest.

The Size of the Bush Tax Cuts and
the Size of the Actuarial Imbalance in the Social Security Trust Fund

As a percent of GDP

Year trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits

Social Security trust fund 75-year actuarial imbalance:


March 2004 Trustees’ Report
0.7 %
2042


June 2004 CBO report
0.4 %
2052


75-year cost of 2001-2003 tax cuts, if extended as proposed by the President:


Total cost of tax cuts
2.0 %


Tax cuts for the top one percent
0.6 %


Note: Estimates of the costs of the tax cuts derived from data supplied by the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, and assume that the tax cuts are continued the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation. Share of the tax cuts for the top one percent based on estimates provided by the Tax Policy Center


Implications for the Federal Budget as a Whole

If CBO is ultimately proved right and the Social Security shortfall is only about three-fifths the size previously thought, the required changes to restore financial balance to Social Security will be significantly smaller. Unfortunately, this will not have large implications for the budget as a whole. The nation’s long-term budget problems will be little changed if the new CBO Social Security projection is used, because Social Security is responsible for only a modest fraction of our long-term fiscal problems. Projected increases in Medicare and Medicaid costs, due to the aging of the population and the relentless rise in health care costs throughout the U.S. health care system (including the private sector), constitute a much larger factor. So do tax cuts. As the next section of this brief analysis indicates, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, their cost will dwarf the Social Security shortfall.

Social Security’s modest impact on the nation’s long-term budget problems are confirmed by projections of the long-term “fiscal gap” — the amount by which revenues must be raised and/or spending cut in order to stabilize the federal debt as a share of the economy and prevent a debt explosion that could cause serious economic damage. Economists Alan Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley and William Gale and Peter Orszag of Brookings have estimated the size of the fiscal gap over the next 75 years to be an alarming 7.2 percent of GDP.[1] Their estimate incorporates the Social Security Trustees’ projection of the Social Security shortfall. If the new CBO projection of the Social Security shortfall is used instead, the size of the long-term fiscal gap drops only a few tenths of a percentage point and remains close to 7 percent of GDP. Stated another way, at least 95 percent of the projected long-term fiscal gap remains.


Cost of the Tax Cuts Compared to the Size of the Social Security Shortfall

If the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent as the Administration has proposed, their cost over the next 75 years will be more than five times the Social Security shortfall over this period, as projected by CBO. In fact, the cost over the next 75 years of the tax cuts just for the one percent of households with the highest incomes — a group with average incomes of about $1 million per year — exceeds the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall that CBO projects.[2]


This does not mean that policymakers should avoid Social Security reform and simply cancel the high end of the tax cut instead. Given the need to reduce the very large long-term deficits the nation faces and to address other costly problems, such as how to finance health care programs and deal with the growing numbers of uninsured Americans, the bulk of the savings that would be achieved from scaling back the tax cuts will be needed elsewhere. Simply filling Social Security’s financing hole with funds from the rest of the budget, and avoiding making any changes in Social Security itself, would not be responsible.

Nevertheless, this comparison showing that the cost of the tax cuts for the most affluent one percent of taxpayers exceeds the entire Social Security shortfall is useful in illustrating why the tax cuts are unaffordable, and why making them permanent does not represent sound or responsible policy. This comparison also should cause ideologically driven claims made by those who assert that the tax cuts are reasonable and prudent but that the Social Security shortfall is gargantuan and catastrophic to be viewed with skepticism.


Estate Tax Reform Can Contribute to Social Security Solvency

Although the bulk of savings from scaling back the tax cuts should not be dedicated to Social Security and other Social Security reforms are essential, it is reasonable to consider dedicating the revenue that could be secured from one specific change in the 2001 tax cut to a larger Social Security reform effort. CBO’s new projections should spark increased interest in the idea of reforming rather than repealing the estate tax, by limiting the estate tax on a permanent basis to the tiny number of very large estates that will still be subject to the tax in 2009, and dedicating the estate tax revenues that remain to the Social Security Trust Fund. Diamond and Orszag, in their recent book on Social Security reform, suggest consideration of this option. Under the new CBO estimates, adopting this approach would reduce the size of the Social Security shortfall by about 40 percent.

* In 2001, before the large tax cut enacted that year took effect, estates worth less than $675,000 for an individual and $1.35 million for a couple were exempt from the estate tax. As a result, the estates of about 98 percent of Americans who died were exempt from the tax.

* By 2009, estates worth up to $3.5 million for an individual and $7 million for a couple will be exempt from the estate tax. Data from the Urban Institute-Brookings Tax Policy Center show that the estates of 99.7 percent of Americans who die will be exempt from the tax in 2009.[3]

* This means that going beyond the estate tax parameters that will be in effect in 2009 and repealing the estate tax altogether would benefit the estates of only the wealthiest 0.3 percent (i.e., the wealthiest three of every 1,000) people who die. Those would be the only estates that otherwise would still be subject to the tax.

* If instead, the estate tax is retained for this very small group of estates and the estate tax proceeds are dedicated to Social Security, approximately 40 percent of CBO’s projected Social Security shortfall would be closed.

Tax Policy Center data show that if this step is not taken and the estate tax is repealed, more than half of the tax-cut benefits that result from repealing the tax rather than retaining it at its 2009 parameters will go to roughly the 500 biggest estates each year. These very large estates will reap a tax-cut benefit worth an average of more than $15 million per estate.

Closing about 40 percent of the Social Security shortfall that CBO projects (or about 25 percent of the shortfall that the Social Security Trustees project) seems a much sounder use of these resources than eliminating the estate tax entirely in order to provide lavish tax-cut benefits to the estates of the nation’s richest individuals. It also should be noted that under the estate-tax reform proposal described here, the small number of very large estates that would continue owing estate tax would themselves receive a hefty reduction in the estate tax that they must pay, compared with the amounts that such estates pay today, since the first $7 million of the assets in these large estates would be exempt from the tax.


Conclusion

CBO’s projections of a substantially smaller Social Security deficit over the next 75 years are an important addition to the Social Security debate. It is not possible to determine at this point whether the CBO projection or the Trustees’ projection is the better one. The sources of the differences between the two projections are the subject of active examination and debate by Social Security experts.

Even under the Trustees’ assumptions, Social Security solvency can be restored with modest program reforms. The CBO projections only underscore this point. Radical changes in the program are not necessary to restore solvency. The CBO projections also underscore the fact that Social Security is responsible for only a relatively modest share of the nation’s serious long-term fiscal gap. The recent tax cuts, if made permanent, will be a significantly larger contributor to our long-term fiscal problems. Indeed, as this analysis explains, the cost of the tax cuts just for the top one percent of households will be larger over the next 75 years than the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall under the CBO projections. Finally, as discussed above, consideration should be given to retaining the estate tax at its shrunken 2009 parameters rather than repealing it altogether, and dedicating the remaining estate tax revenues to Social Security as part of a larger reform that shores up the program for the long term.


End Notes:

[1] Alan J. Auerbach, William G. Gale, and Peter R. Orszag, “Sources of the Long-term Gap,” Tax Notes, May 24, 2004.

[2] The figures cited here for the cost of the 2001, 2002, and 2003 tax cuts represent their cost (in present value, as a percentage of GDP) through 2078 if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are extended and made permanent in the way that the Administration has proposed. Our estimate of the cost of the tax cuts — 2.0 percent of GDP — is based on estimates by CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation. The estimate also assumes that the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation, using CBO figures published in January 2004 in its baseline report. Although CBO’s estimate of the cost of indexing the AMT is not directly added to our figures, CBO’s data show that under an indexed AMT, the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would be more expensive because the AMT would “take back” less of these tax cuts. It is this incremental cost that is included in our estimate. We assume that after 2014, the cost of the tax cuts remains a constant share of GDP, an assumption that is very likely to be conservative. The resulting estimate of the long-term cost of the tax cuts (2.0 percent of GDP) is slightly smaller than the estimate of 2.2 percent of GDP from the Auerbach, Gale, and Orszag paper, op cit. The difference mostly arises from small methodological differences in how the AMT is reflected in the figures.

[3] The Tax Policy Center data estimate the number of estates that will still be subject to the estate tax in 2009. This figure represents 0.3 percent of the number of deaths projected to occur in 2009. For the purposes of determining total deaths (estates) in each year, the TPC model uses the 1996 U.S. Annuity Basic Tables available on the website of the Society of Actuaries (http://www.soa.org) combined with age-specific population data reported by the Bureau of the Census.


This website offers a few quick-reference charts and figures indicating that U.S. population is projected to increase by 47% from its 2000 level over the next 46 years taking into account both birthrate and immigration. Without immigration, that increase would be only 16%. As this note at NPG outlines:

Negative Population Growth wrote:FAST FACTS ABOUT U.S. POPULATION GROWTH

The United States has the highest growth rates of any industrialized country in the world.

*The U.S. population is growing by about 3.2 million people each year.

*Using the Census Bureau's medium projections, U.S. population is expected to grow to 400 million by the year 2050. Eight states have population growth rates over 2.0%, which means their population will double in less than 35 years. Florida’s population has grown from 1.9 million in 1940 to 15 million today. That is over a 600% increase in just 50 years.
Oh, and if you wish to indulge an Attacking the Messenger Fallacy against NPG on ideological grounds to try to discount the facts given, this little dynamic population pyramid graphic at the U.S. Census website should underline the facts quite effectively.

And to reinforce the point, from the tables at this page from the U.S. Census website:
United States/2005
Total, all ages 295,734,134

United States/2010
Total, all ages 309,162,581

United States/2015
Total, all ages 322,592,787

United States/2020
Total, all ages 336,031,546

United States/2025
Total, all ages 349,666,199

United States/2030
Total, all ages 363,811,435

United States/2035
Total, all ages 378,113,238

United States/2040
Total, all ages 392,172,658

United States/2045
Total, all ages 406,089,392

United States/2050
Total, all ages 420,080,587
From there, the tables break down into population by sex and age groups. Furthermore, even the application of basic mathematics shows that the retirement-age percentage of the population will comprise only about 20% of the total U.S. population by 2045, with the working age percentage hovering around 53%; sufficient base to support the Social Security system.

The numbers clearly undercut the Chicken-Little bullshit that the U.S. population is going to flatten out or go into steady decline and that therefore Social Security will become untenable due to a shrinking base.

To sum up the basic facts and figures:

• Social Security is projected to remain quite solvent through 2052, and that even if there are no changes in the structure of benefits as defined in current law, retirees will still be receiving higher proportions of benefits than the generations which proceeded them. The Congressional Budget Office report is in no way suggesting that the system is facing eventual collapse or that it is unfixable, but merely projecting possible trends as a guide to legislation, as has been done numerous times in the past.

• To fix the present projected imbalance would require little more than rescinding the more irresponsible of Bush's tax-cuts to the top 1% of earners (which threatens a general budgetary shortfall five times greater than the projected Social Security shortfall) and to raise the cap on the payroll tax to the $110,000 mark, while reforming the Estate Tax to asses only those estates valued at $7 million or above. These are, at most, minor adjustments to the present tax system which would more or less restore the pre-Bush status-quo.

• The payroll-tax increases required to support Social Security's long-term solvency at this point would amount to less than a quarter of the tax increases passed by Congress in the 1980s and signed into law by Ronald Reagan to ensure the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund twenty years ago.

• The present condition of the Social Security system, even with the projected shortfall, is far better than what was projected back in 1965.

• Projected population trends clearly show the the U.S. population will increase by about 47% beyond the 2000 census level to a population of 408 million, factoring in both birthrate and immigration. Furthermore, the proportion of retirees to working-age members of the society of 2045 and 2050 is going to remain very clearly slanted in favour of the working age percentile. There is no demographic time-bomb ticking away which will explode the contributor base for Social Security.

In short, there is no immediate or looming crisis which requires the radical solution of privatisation, no matter how much you scream hysterically to the contrary and ignore, distort, or outright misrepresent the evidence. And if you insist on continuing to pile up your Wall of Ignorance ever higher, it will simply be necessary to keep burying you with the truth until you've had enough.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »


Will it really be necessary to go through the entire record of this thread?
No it would require you to use you brain rather than copy and paste.
Your entire position has been that Social Security will collapse and that the only viable alternative is privatisation.
BS. My position is that a pay as you go system is the problem, public vs private is not the be all end all of the debate. One can have a public investment strategy, numerous municipalities already have such things, you INVEST rather than pay as you go.

Nor do I argue that the system will inevitably collapse. AS THE SYSTEM STANDS TODAY it is not going to be able to pay out. YOUR OWN SOURCES AGREE ON THIS POINT. All that changes is people dick over the date at which it comes playing by the current rules.

And no matter how many times these points have been refuted, you keep coming back and restating them ad-infinitum
This from a man to cowardly to do anything other than regurgitate verbatum the same tired set of articles that in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ever consider what happens if the projections are ignoring higher order effects or even if such effects can be modeled.

VERY relevant: as the material counters substantively the huge False Dilemma you keep trying to put forth: privatise or face disaster.
You will notice, if you bother to read, that I am argueing about the robustness of the system. EVERY single time social security has come up short the "solutions" have revolved around the same two tired concepts: Increase taxes, reduce benifits. That simply is not good enough. Increasing taxes requires that the government be a position where increased taxation actually brings in increased revenue, that is not a given. Decreasing benifits is lousy on two counts: first it is political suicide and second by the time the political capital is mustered to do it, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse time.

Everyone, but the government, utilizes investment to cut insurance costs, why is public investment so odious to you? Yes holding T-bills earns interest at low (but not zero) risk, but for a program that size it simply doesn't make sense to not optimize your risk/return tradeoff. Having investment means you can operate with a larger safety margin.


Again if a pay as you go system works so well, why does no one set one up privately and make a killing administering it? You have no overhead, only banking costs, and even the slimest of percentages would be a healthy return for whomever runs it. Why do traditional investments dominate the private sector over pay as you go?


Anticipating your inability to make a rational reply, let me premptively spam the thread for you:



A basic rundown of the myths commonly floated about Social Security:

Quote:
The Basics
5 myths about Social Security
System reform is a hotbed of controversy. But to move ahead, we've got to identify the myths, toss them aside and refocus on realities.

By Liz Pulliam Weston

You can’t write about Social Security and not get flooded with angry e-mails representing all points of the political spectrum. From those who dub it “Socialist Insecurity” to those who hold their checks to be an inalienable right, people often have passionate and firmly held beliefs about the system.

Unfortunately, sometimes those beliefs are based on myths. In the interest of more honest debate, let’s review some of these legends.

Myth No.1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you’ll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It’s called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.

What isn’t in the trust fund is a big hoard of cash.

Three-quarters of the money that’s collected in Social Security taxes goes right out the door again in the form of benefits to Social Security recipients. The surplus that isn’t needed to pay benefits is loaned to the federal government to pay for other programs.

In return for this loan, the trust fund gets IOUs in the form of special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. The interest isn’t paid in cash, however; the Treasury department issues the fund additional bonds for the interest amount. Last year, the fund was credited with $80 billion in interest; the total value of the securities is about $1.5 trillion.

Critics often deride these bonds as “a bookkeeping entry” or a fiction, but they’re real obligations of the U.S. government, said Steve Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary. In the past, they’ve been cashed in when Social Security or its sister program, Medicare, temporarily ran low on funds. The last time was in the early 1980s.

“They’re backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government,” Goss said. “They’re every bit as real . . . as any savings bond or Treasury bond any individual might hold in society.”

The problem, of course, is that the government now owes the trust fund so much money -- and relies on its surplus so heavily -- that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued.

Myth No.2: Congress doesn’t pay into Social Security, so it doesn’t care about fixing the crisis. The idea that U.S. lawmakers don’t pay into Social Security is 20 years out of date. Before 1984, U.S. representatives and senators -- like all other federal employees -- weren’t covered by Social Security and didn’t pay into the system. Congress passed a law in 1983, which took effect the next year, requiring all its members (and all federal employees hired after that year) to participate in the system.

This myth is often accompanied by the assertion that Congress participates in a private pension scheme that pays them their salaries for the rest of their lives. In fact, the Civil Service Retirement System, which covered federal employees in earlier decades, was closed to new participants after 1983. The pensions available under this old system depend on the federal worker’s pay and tenure with the government, but by law can’t exceed 80% of the final year’s pay. Benefits paid under the system are reduced by the amount of Social Security the participant receives.

The reason Congress hasn’t fixed the Social Security crisis is politics. The most likely solutions -- raising taxes, cutting benefits, establishing private accounts or some combination of the three -- all face strong opposition. In addition, the people currently receiving benefits are represented by one of the strongest, most politically-connected lobbies in existence: AARP. The 20-something workers who likely will pay the cost for Congressional inaction don’t have nearly the same clout.

Life expectancy and disappearing assets
Myth No.3: Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then. The average life expectancy for a baby girl born in 1935 was about 63 years. For a baby boy, it was about 59 years.

But those statistics reflect the higher infant and child mortality rates of the times. If you survived childhood, you had a good shot of living beyond retirement age. Men who lived to age 30 in 1935 could expect to last another 37 years. Women at 30 had a 40-year average life expectancy.

If you actually reached retirement age, your prospects for a relatively long retirement were good. Men who were 65 in 1935 could expect to live another 12 years, while women faced an average 13 more years. (Today, men of the same age can expect to live another 16 years, and women 19 years.)

In fact, about half of the 30 state pension plans that existed in 1935, and many of the private pension plans, used 65 as a retirement age. Most of the others used age 70. Social Security’s creators thought 65 was the more reasonable age and believed the system could be self-sustaining if they chose that age.

Myth No.4: Social Security will run out of money in 2042. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2042. What may have disappeared by then are the assets in the Social Security trust fund.

Even that isn’t cast in stone, however. The Congressional Budget Office in June projected that the trust fund wouldn’t dry up until 10 years later, in 2052. The CBO used different assumptions than those used by the Social Security Administration, projecting faster growth in worker earnings, higher interest rates and lower inflation.

Here’s how the Social Security Administration projects the timeline:

* In 2018, Social Security will begin paying out more than it takes in. For the first time, it will have to use the interest being paid on the securities it holds in order to meet its obligations.

* In 2028, Social Security would have to start redeeming the securities themselves.

* By 2042, Social Security would have cashed in the last security, and the system would have enough revenue to pay out only 73% of promised benefits. That percentage would drop over time if Congress failed to act.

Demographics and add-ons
Myth No.5: Social Security wouldn’t be having problems if foreigners weren’t able to claim Social Security benefits. The number of checks sent overseas in 2002 totaled 404,640 -- a tiny fraction of the 53 million or so checks Social Security issues annually. Many of those folks may well be Americans who retired abroad (some of whom I profiled in “Retire like royalty in a low-cost paradise”). Social Security doesn’t break down the overseas checks by citizenship.

In any case, foreign workers who live in the United States have to work and pay taxes into the system for at least 10 years to qualify for Social Security benefits, just as U.S. citizens do.

What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.

In 1950, there were 16 workers for every person receiving Social Security benefits. By 2015, there will be only three workers for each beneficiary. Fifteen years after that, the ratio will be down to 2.2 to 1.

Even that demographic shift wouldn’t be such a disaster if Social Security hadn’t expanded far beyond its original mandate of providing retirement benefits for workers. About 30% of Social Security’s total benefits are paid to retirees’ dependents and survivors and to disabled workers.

Here’s a summary of the add-ons over the years:

* In 1939, five years after Social Security began, Congress added payments for the families of workers who died, and for retirees’ dependents (such as stay-at-home spouses).

* In 1956, Congress added disability benefits for workers.

* In 1974, Supplemental Security Income or SSI was established as a welfare program for low-income seniors and people with disabilities.

* In 1965, Congress established Medicare to pay health-care costs for seniors.

Of these add-ons, however, only the first two -- disability benefits and payments to dependents, widows, orphans -- actually affect Social Security’s bottom line.

SSI benefits are paid out of the federal government’s general revenues. Medicare is paid for with its own tax and has its own trust fund.

(Medicare is in far worse shape than Social Security. Medicare’s trustees project insolvency in 2019, 23 years before the earliest date Social Security is scheduled to run aground. Medicare has an unfunded liability of $27.7 trillion over the next 75 years, while Social Security’s unfunded liability for the same period is $3.7 trillion. To put this in perspective, the entire national debt is currently about $7 trillion.)

Like Medicare, the disability insurance program also has its own tax and its own trust fund. But the disability fund’s results are combined with that of the retirement system when Social Security insolvency projections are made, Goss said, and account for $700 billion of the $3.7 trillion unfunded liability.

If the disabled, the dependent and the survivors were booted out of the system, Social Security could pay for itself --assuming tax levels remained the same.

“The system would be more than adequately funded,” Goss said, “if only retirees were receiving benefits.”

That’s not a solution Goss -- or anyone else who really thinks about it -- could endorse. Even if it were morally viable, kicking out all the widows, orphans, disabled and stay-at-home spouses is politically untenable.

So we’re back to choosing from the same controversial list of options: cutting benefits, raising taxes, privatizing some or all of the system. What we choose, though, should be based on the realities of the system -- not the myths.

Liz Pulliam Weston's column appears every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions in the Your Money message board.


Now for the more comprehensive body of evidence against your claims:

THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security he insists points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":

Congressional Budget Office wrote:
An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.



And THIS is a comprehensive analysis of the CBO report which isn't saying that the system is facing eventual collapse at all:

Centre for Economic and Policy Research wrote:
Basic Facts on Social Security and Proposed Benefit Cuts/Privatization

Dean Baker and David Rosnick1

November 16, 2004

1) Social Security is Financially Sound

According to the Social Security trustees report, the standard basis for analyzing Social Security, the program can pay all benefits through the year 2042, with no changes whatsoever. Even after 2042 the program would always be able to pay retirees a higher benefit (in today's dollars) than what current retirees receive. The assessment of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office is that Social Security is even stronger. It projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through the year 2052 with no changes whatsoever. By either measure, Social Security is more financially sound today than it has been throughout most of its 69-year history.


Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


2) President Bush's Social Security Cuts Would Be Large

The proposal that President Bush is using as the basis for his plan phases in cuts over time. A worker who is 45 today can expect to see a cut in guaranteed benefits of around 15 percent. A worker who is age 35 can expect to see a cut in the guaranteed benefit of approximately 25 percent. A 15 year old who is just entering the work force can expect a benefit cut of close to 40 percent. For a 15 year old, this cut would mean a loss of close to $160,000 in Social Security benefits over the course of their retirement.

Private accounts will allow workers to earn back only a small fraction of this amount. For example, a 15 year-old can expect to make back approximately $50,000 from the $160,000 cut with the earnings on a private account. If this worker retires when the market is in a slump, then it could make their loss even bigger.



Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.

3) Imaginary Stock Returns Don't Offset Real Benefit Cuts

Proponents of private accounts have often used highly exaggerated assumptions on stock returns to argue for the benefits of private accounts. For example, even at the height of the stock bubble in 2000, when the price to earnings ratio in the market exceeded 30 to 1, many proponents of private accounts assumed that stocks would generate 7.0 percent real returns annually. This assumption was absurd on its face - it implied that price to earnings ratios would rise to levels of more than 100 to 1. Unfortunately, even the Social Security Administration has used these unfounded assumptions in assessing privatization plans.

Given current price to earnings ratios and the Social Security trustees' profit growth projections, real stock returns will average less than 5.0 percent annually. Some proponents of private accounts are still using exaggerated stock return assumptions to advance their case.



Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


4) Social Security is Extremely Efficient, Private Accounts Are Wasteful

On average, less than 0.6 cents of every dollar paid out in Social Security benefits goes to pay administrative costs. By comparison, systems with individual accounts, like the ones in England or Chile, waste 15 cents of every dollar paid out in benefits on administrative fees. President Bush's Social Security commission estimated that under their system of individual accounts 5 cents of every dollar would go to pay administrative costs.

In addition, under Social Security workers automatically get an annuity (a life-long monthly payment) when they retire. By contrast, financial firms typically take 10 to 20 percent of workers' savings to provide an annuity when they reach retirement.



Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


5) Social Security Pays the Most to Those Who Need it Most

Social Security benefits are highly progressive, so that low wage workers get a much higher share of their wages in benefits than do high wage workers. A worker who earned $10,000 a year during their working lifetime can expect to see a benefit that is equal to approximately 75 percent of their average wage. A worker who earned $33,000 a year will get a benefit that is equal to approximately 45 percent of their wage, while a worker who earned $50,000 on average will get a benefit that is equal to 39 percent of their wage.

While poorer workers do not live as long as higher paid workers, the progressive benefit structure largely offsets differences in life expectancy (as do disability and survivors benefits for those who do not live to normal retirement age). Furthermore, since plans are being made for the distant future, the United States could reduce the gaps in life expectancy by income and race, as other countries have done.



Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


6) The Projected Shortfall is No Larger Than What We Have Seen In Past Decades

It has been necessary to raise Social Security taxes in the past, primarily because people are living longer than they used to. The tax increase that would be needed to make the program fully funded over its seventy five year planning period is actually smaller than tax increases we have seen in prior decades. In other words - it would have made more sense to talk of a Social Security "crisis" in 1965 than in 2005. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office estimates, Social Security can be made solvent throughout its seventy five year planning period with a tax increase that is less than one quarter as large as the one in the eighties.

While tax increases are never popular, the fact is that prior tax increases did not prevent decades like the fifties or sixties from being periods of great prosperity. Of course, if the economy maintains anywhere near its recent pace of growth, any tax increases can be put off for many decades into the future, and possibly forever.



Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


7) Young Workers Will Still See Much Higher Wages If Taxes Are Increased

If it proves necessary to raise more money for Social Security through taxes, workers will still see large increases in their after-tax wages. This is true even if they end up paying a larger share of their wages in Social Security taxes. According to the Social Security trustees' projections, the average after-Social Security tax wage for a worker in 2050, will still be more than 70 percent higher than it is today, even if taxes are raised to keep the program solvent. The CBO projections imply an even larger increase in after-tax wages.

Raising payroll taxes is not the only way to increase the revenue for Social Security. An alternative is to raise the ceiling on taxable wages. Currently, no Social Security taxes are paid on income earned above $87,900 in any given year. If the ceiling were raised to $110,000 to cover 90 percent of the country's income from wages (the level set by the Greenspan commission in 1983), it would eliminate approximately 40 percent of the projected funding shortfall. Using the CBO projections, this change alone would be almost enough to make the program solvent through the seventy-five year planning period.



Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


8 ) The Bush Proposal Phases Out Social Security as We Know It

President Bush's proposal gradually shrinks the traditional guaranteed Social Security so that it will eventually become irrelevant for middle income workers. For today's twenty year old average wage earners, the guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 15 percent of their annual earnings when they reach retirement age. The guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 7 percent of annual earnings for a child born ten years from now.

As the traditional Social Security benefit becomes less important for middle-income workers, Social Security will increasingly become a poor people's program. This may be a clever strategy if the purpose is to undermine political support for Social Security; it is not a good way to structure the program if we expect it to be there for our children and grandchildren.



Source: President’s Commission to Strengthen Social Security and Author’s Calculations.



Footnotes:

1. Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy research., David Rosnick, provided research assistance and or comments on earlier drafts of this paper.


And THIS analysis also disputes the ideology that Social Security is facing "perpetual shortfall" and is therefore unfixable:

Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:
THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROJECTIONS ISSUED BY THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE
by Robert Greenstein, Peter Orszag and Richard Kogan

A new Congressional Budget Office analysis released today, which has been several years in the making, projects that the long-term shortfall in Social Security financing is 47 percent smaller than the Social Security Trustees have projected.

* The Trustees project that the Social Security shortfall over the next 75 years equals 1.89 percent of taxable payroll over the 75-year period. CBO projects the shortfall to be 1.0 percent of taxable payroll, or 47 percent less than the Trustees project.

* Measured as a share of the economy, the Trustees project that the shortfall equals 0.7 percent of GDP over the next 75 years. The CBO figures reflect a shortfall of about 0.4 percent of GDP.

* Similarly, the Trustees project that the trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits starting in 2042. CBO’s estimate is 2052; after that time about 80 percent of benefits could be paid.

These differences are due primarily to differences in economic assumptions, along with methodological differences.

CBO’s report emphasizes other measures of the imbalance in Social Security. The figures reported above reflect the traditional 75-year actuarial measure, which has long been used to examine Social Security’s finances.

Implications for Social Security

Two important books written by four of the nation’s leading Social Security experts — Countdown to Reform: The Great Social Security Debate by Henry Aaron and Robert Reischauer, and Saving Social Security: A Balanced Approach by Peter Diamond and Peter Orszag — have shown, using the Trustees’ projections, that long-term Social Security solvency can be restored by modest benefit and payroll tax changes that are phased in over a number of years. These books, as well as proposals developed by other experts, have shown that radical changes in Social Security’s structure — including the replacement of part of Social Security with private accounts that carry greater risk for individual beneficiaries — are not necessary to restore long-term solvency.

The new CBO estimates strongly underscore this point. Under the CBO projections, the benefit and tax changes needed to restore long-term solvency would be still more modest.

The Size of the Bush Tax Cuts and
the Size of the Actuarial Imbalance in the Social Security Trust Fund

As a percent of GDP

Year trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits

Social Security trust fund 75-year actuarial imbalance:


March 2004 Trustees’ Report
0.7 %
2042


June 2004 CBO report
0.4 %
2052


75-year cost of 2001-2003 tax cuts, if extended as proposed by the President:


Total cost of tax cuts
2.0 %


Tax cuts for the top one percent
0.6 %


Note: Estimates of the costs of the tax cuts derived from data supplied by the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, and assume that the tax cuts are continued the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation. Share of the tax cuts for the top one percent based on estimates provided by the Tax Policy Center


Implications for the Federal Budget as a Whole

If CBO is ultimately proved right and the Social Security shortfall is only about three-fifths the size previously thought, the required changes to restore financial balance to Social Security will be significantly smaller. Unfortunately, this will not have large implications for the budget as a whole. The nation’s long-term budget problems will be little changed if the new CBO Social Security projection is used, because Social Security is responsible for only a modest fraction of our long-term fiscal problems. Projected increases in Medicare and Medicaid costs, due to the aging of the population and the relentless rise in health care costs throughout the U.S. health care system (including the private sector), constitute a much larger factor. So do tax cuts. As the next section of this brief analysis indicates, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, their cost will dwarf the Social Security shortfall.

Social Security’s modest impact on the nation’s long-term budget problems are confirmed by projections of the long-term “fiscal gap” — the amount by which revenues must be raised and/or spending cut in order to stabilize the federal debt as a share of the economy and prevent a debt explosion that could cause serious economic damage. Economists Alan Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley and William Gale and Peter Orszag of Brookings have estimated the size of the fiscal gap over the next 75 years to be an alarming 7.2 percent of GDP.[1] Their estimate incorporates the Social Security Trustees’ projection of the Social Security shortfall. If the new CBO projection of the Social Security shortfall is used instead, the size of the long-term fiscal gap drops only a few tenths of a percentage point and remains close to 7 percent of GDP. Stated another way, at least 95 percent of the projected long-term fiscal gap remains.


Cost of the Tax Cuts Compared to the Size of the Social Security Shortfall

If the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent as the Administration has proposed, their cost over the next 75 years will be more than five times the Social Security shortfall over this period, as projected by CBO. In fact, the cost over the next 75 years of the tax cuts just for the one percent of households with the highest incomes — a group with average incomes of about $1 million per year — exceeds the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall that CBO projects.[2]

This does not mean that policymakers should avoid Social Security reform and simply cancel the high end of the tax cut instead. Given the need to reduce the very large long-term deficits the nation faces and to address other costly problems, such as how to finance health care programs and deal with the growing numbers of uninsured Americans, the bulk of the savings that would be achieved from scaling back the tax cuts will be needed elsewhere. Simply filling Social Security’s financing hole with funds from the rest of the budget, and avoiding making any changes in Social Security itself, would not be responsible.

Nevertheless, this comparison showing that the cost of the tax cuts for the most affluent one percent of taxpayers exceeds the entire Social Security shortfall is useful in illustrating why the tax cuts are unaffordable, and why making them permanent does not represent sound or responsible policy. This comparison also should cause ideologically driven claims made by those who assert that the tax cuts are reasonable and prudent but that the Social Security shortfall is gargantuan and catastrophic to be viewed with skepticism.


Estate Tax Reform Can Contribute to Social Security Solvency

Although the bulk of savings from scaling back the tax cuts should not be dedicated to Social Security and other Social Security reforms are essential, it is reasonable to consider dedicating the revenue that could be secured from one specific change in the 2001 tax cut to a larger Social Security reform effort. CBO’s new projections should spark increased interest in the idea of reforming rather than repealing the estate tax, by limiting the estate tax on a permanent basis to the tiny number of very large estates that will still be subject to the tax in 2009, and dedicating the estate tax revenues that remain to the Social Security Trust Fund. Diamond and Orszag, in their recent book on Social Security reform, suggest consideration of this option. Under the new CBO estimates, adopting this approach would reduce the size of the Social Security shortfall by about 40 percent.

* In 2001, before the large tax cut enacted that year took effect, estates worth less than $675,000 for an individual and $1.35 million for a couple were exempt from the estate tax. As a result, the estates of about 98 percent of Americans who died were exempt from the tax.

* By 2009, estates worth up to $3.5 million for an individual and $7 million for a couple will be exempt from the estate tax. Data from the Urban Institute-Brookings Tax Policy Center show that the estates of 99.7 percent of Americans who die will be exempt from the tax in 2009.[3]

* This means that going beyond the estate tax parameters that will be in effect in 2009 and repealing the estate tax altogether would benefit the estates of only the wealthiest 0.3 percent (i.e., the wealthiest three of every 1,000) people who die. Those would be the only estates that otherwise would still be subject to the tax.

* If instead, the estate tax is retained for this very small group of estates and the estate tax proceeds are dedicated to Social Security, approximately 40 percent of CBO’s projected Social Security shortfall would be closed.

Tax Policy Center data show that if this step is not taken and the estate tax is repealed, more than half of the tax-cut benefits that result from repealing the tax rather than retaining it at its 2009 parameters will go to roughly the 500 biggest estates each year. These very large estates will reap a tax-cut benefit worth an average of more than $15 million per estate.

Closing about 40 percent of the Social Security shortfall that CBO projects (or about 25 percent of the shortfall that the Social Security Trustees project) seems a much sounder use of these resources than eliminating the estate tax entirely in order to provide lavish tax-cut benefits to the estates of the nation’s richest individuals. It also should be noted that under the estate-tax reform proposal described here, the small number of very large estates that would continue owing estate tax would themselves receive a hefty reduction in the estate tax that they must pay, compared with the amounts that such estates pay today, since the first $7 million of the assets in these large estates would be exempt from the tax.


Conclusion

CBO’s projections of a substantially smaller Social Security deficit over the next 75 years are an important addition to the Social Security debate. It is not possible to determine at this point whether the CBO projection or the Trustees’ projection is the better one. The sources of the differences between the two projections are the subject of active examination and debate by Social Security experts.

Even under the Trustees’ assumptions, Social Security solvency can be restored with modest program reforms. The CBO projections only underscore this point. Radical changes in the program are not necessary to restore solvency. The CBO projections also underscore the fact that Social Security is responsible for only a relatively modest share of the nation’s serious long-term fiscal gap. The recent tax cuts, if made permanent, will be a significantly larger contributor to our long-term fiscal problems. Indeed, as this analysis explains, the cost of the tax cuts just for the top one percent of households will be larger over the next 75 years than the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall under the CBO projections. Finally, as discussed above, consideration should be given to retaining the estate tax at its shrunken 2009 parameters rather than repealing it altogether, and dedicating the remaining estate tax revenues to Social Security as part of a larger reform that shores up the program for the long term.

End Notes:

[1] Alan J. Auerbach, William G. Gale, and Peter R. Orszag, “Sources of the Long-term Gap,” Tax Notes, May 24, 2004.

[2] The figures cited here for the cost of the 2001, 2002, and 2003 tax cuts represent their cost (in present value, as a percentage of GDP) through 2078 if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are extended and made permanent in the way that the Administration has proposed. Our estimate of the cost of the tax cuts — 2.0 percent of GDP — is based on estimates by CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation. The estimate also assumes that the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation, using CBO figures published in January 2004 in its baseline report. Although CBO’s estimate of the cost of indexing the AMT is not directly added to our figures, CBO’s data show that under an indexed AMT, the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would be more expensive because the AMT would “take back” less of these tax cuts. It is this incremental cost that is included in our estimate. We assume that after 2014, the cost of the tax cuts remains a constant share of GDP, an assumption that is very likely to be conservative. The resulting estimate of the long-term cost of the tax cuts (2.0 percent of GDP) is slightly smaller than the estimate of 2.2 percent of GDP from the Auerbach, Gale, and Orszag paper, op cit. The difference mostly arises from small methodological differences in how the AMT is reflected in the figures.

[3] The Tax Policy Center data estimate the number of estates that will still be subject to the estate tax in 2009. This figure represents 0.3 percent of the number of deaths projected to occur in 2009. For the purposes of determining total deaths (estates) in each year, the TPC model uses the 1996 U.S. Annuity Basic Tables available on the website of the Society of Actuaries (http://www.soa.org) combined with age-specific population data reported by the Bureau of the Census.


This website offers a few quick-reference charts and figures indicating that U.S. population is projected to increase by 47% from its 2000 level over the next 46 years taking into account both birthrate and immigration. Without immigration, that increase would be only 16%. As this note at NPG outlines:

Negative Population Growth wrote:
FAST FACTS ABOUT U.S. POPULATION GROWTH

The United States has the highest growth rates of any industrialized country in the world.

*The U.S. population is growing by about 3.2 million people each year.

*Using the Census Bureau's medium projections, U.S. population is expected to grow to 400 million by the year 2050. Eight states have population growth rates over 2.0%, which means their population will double in less than 35 years. Florida’s population has grown from 1.9 million in 1940 to 15 million today. That is over a 600% increase in just 50 years.


Oh, and if you wish to indulge an Attacking the Messenger Fallacy against NPG on ideological grounds to try to discount the facts given, this little dynamic population pyramid graphic at the U.S. Census website should underline the facts quite effectively.

And to reinforce the point, from the tables at this page from the U.S. Census website:

Quote:
United States/2005
Total, all ages 295,734,134

United States/2010
Total, all ages 309,162,581

United States/2015
Total, all ages 322,592,787

United States/2020
Total, all ages 336,031,546

United States/2025
Total, all ages 349,666,199

United States/2030
Total, all ages 363,811,435

United States/2035
Total, all ages 378,113,238

United States/2040
Total, all ages 392,172,658

United States/2045
Total, all ages 406,089,392

United States/2050
Total, all ages 420,080,587


From there, the tables break down into population by sex and age groups. Furthermore, even the application of basic mathematics shows that the retirement-age percentage of the population will comprise only about 20% of the total U.S. population by 2045, with the working age percentage hovering around 53%; sufficient base to support the Social Security system.

The numbers clearly undercut the Chicken-Little bullshit that the U.S. population is going to flatten out or go into steady decline and that therefore Social Security will become untenable due to a shrinking base.

To sum up the basic facts and figures:

• Social Security is projected to remain quite solvent through 2052, and that even if there are no changes in the structure of benefits as defined in current law, retirees will still be receiving higher proportions of benefits than the generations which proceeded them. The Congressional Budget Office report is in no way suggesting that the system is facing eventual collapse or that it is unfixable, but merely projecting possible trends as a guide to legislation, as has been done numerous times in the past.

• To fix the present projected imbalance would require little more than rescinding the more irresponsible of Bush's tax-cuts to the top 1% of earners (which threatens a general budgetary shortfall five times greater than the projected Social Security shortfall) and to raise the cap on the payroll tax to the $110,000 mark, while reforming the Estate Tax to asses only those estates valued at $7 million or above. These are, at most, minor adjustments to the present tax system which would more or less restore the pre-Bush status-quo.

• The payroll-tax increases required to support Social Security's long-term solvency at this point would amount to less than a quarter of the tax increases passed by Congress in the 1980s and signed into law by Ronald Reagan to ensure the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund twenty years ago.

• The present condition of the Social Security system, even with the projected shortfall, is far better than what was projected back in 1965.

• Projected population trends clearly show the the U.S. population will increase by about 47% beyond the 2000 census level to a population of 408 million, factoring in both birthrate and immigration. Furthermore, the proportion of retirees to working-age members of the society of 2045 and 2050 is going to remain very clearly slanted in favour of the working age percentile. There is no demographic time-bomb ticking away which will explode the contributor base for Social Security.

In short, there is no immediate or looming crisis which requires the radical solution of privatisation, no matter how much you scream hysterically to the contrary and ignore, distort, or outright misrepresent the evidence. And if you insist on continuing to pile up your Wall of Ignorance ever higher, it will simply be necessary to keep burying you with the truth until you've had enough.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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Post by Xon »

Patrick Degan wrote:I see Tharkun's latest Wall of Ignorance is past stage one in construction.
At the dawn of time on this forum, not very long after I joined(within the 1st year), I got into a ~12 page "debate" with Tharkun over why human piloted fighters in space would be better than automated missiles in space. The Wall of Ignorance was strong then, and probably hasnt been weakened much with time.
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Post by Xon »

ggs wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:I see Tharkun's latest Wall of Ignorance is past stage one in construction.
At the dawn of time on this forum, not very long after I joined(within the 1st year), I got into a ~12 page "debate" with Tharkun over why human piloted fighters in space would not be better than automated missiles in space. The Wall of Ignorance was strong then, and probably hasnt been weakened much with time.
Gah, missed a word there.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

tharkûn wrote:

Will it really be necessary to go through the entire record of this thread?
No it would require you to use you brain rather than copy and paste.
This coming from Mr. Wall of Ignorance. How droll.
Your entire position has been that Social Security will collapse and that the only viable alternative is privatisation.
BS. My position is that a pay as you go system is the problem, public vs private is not the be all end all of the debate. One can have a public investment strategy, numerous municipalities already have such things, you INVEST rather than pay as you go.
DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT make the following idiotic arguments:
•As I've long maintained social security as an investment plan is a Ponzai scheme. If anyone but the federal government set up this plan today it would be dragged to court and the author jailed. As a welfare program it is run in a decidely assbackwards manner and is funded in about as idiotic manner as one could conceive of.

•As an insurance plan, social security sucks as well. In an insurance set up the goal is to have a stable system, one which can maintain payouts in all but the most strenious conditions. Social security is not going to be able to do that without serious changes. When your insurance is contingent upon population growth then you have lousy insurance.

•According to the Congressional Budget office the balance for social security will get worse over time. Today the balance stands about .62% of GDP, in 2025 it will be -.64%, in 2050 it will be -1.27%, in 2100 it will be -1.99%. The baby boom is traditionally defined to be between 1946 and 1964. In 2100 the last babyboomer will be over 130. Remind me again how it gets better?

•Call it whatever damn bloody name you like, the current laws project red ink as far as the eye can see. Without an expanding base, a pay as you go system can only expect to break even on your money.

• Unfortunately the people who oppose any from of privitization or investment are the same individuals who refuse to accept that the system cannot maintain current performance.

• As far as sitting here doing nothing, exactly when should we begin to care about the problem? In 10 years? In 20 years? Every year action is delayed, be it simply the idiotic step of increasing the payroll taxes a percentage point, is making it harder on tommorrows workers who will have to pay more and have less time to compound interest to fix the problem?
The Ponzi Scheme Strawman never had any validity to begin with and relies on the assumption that the government is nothing but a conspiracy to defraud the taxpayer instead of a civil institution meeting its responsibilities as defined under law. From there, all you do is argue privatisation as the one viable alternative to a system you continue to insist is doomed to perpetual shortfall even though the CBO report says no such damn thing, and predicate that argument on the arbitrarily assumed steady decline in birthrate and the general economy for which you demonstrate no supporting evidence other than your assertion that this will come to pass. Nevermind your equally idiotic and arbitrary assumption that Congress is simply going to take no action at all to correct the possible long-term shortfalls —I repeat that word: possible, which is a very different word from extant.
Nor do I argue that the system will inevitably collapse. AS THE SYSTEM STANDS TODAY it is not going to be able to pay out. YOUR OWN SOURCES AGREE ON THIS POINT. All that changes is people dick over the date at which it comes playing by the current rules.
If it is not your argument that the system will inevitably collapse, as you say now, then what prompted this statement of yours:
The fiscal crisis gets worse after the baby boomers are dead and gone. A full hundred years from now the system has a shortfall and the trendline is for an INCREASING shortfall as time goes on.
Inevitable collapse is the implication at the heart of your argument for privatisation. You are the one who keeps insisting that Social Security cannot sustain its performance and use the CBO trendline as the basis for that argument. The potential problems with the Social Security system have been recognised by the authours and analysts quoted in this thread and long before you ever got to them. The question is whether or not this represents the looming crisis scenario which the White House is very dishonestly touting in its push to scaremonger the public into buying into the privatisation scheme sight-unseen.
And no matter how many times these points have been refuted, you keep coming back and restating them ad-infinitum
This from a man to cowardly to do anything other than regurgitate verbatum the same tired set of articles that in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ever consider what happens if the projections are ignoring higher order effects or even if such effects can be modeled.
Style-over-Substance Fallacy, as well as a continuing demonstration that you won't even try to address the data being presented in the analyses.

And as for your continual regurgitation of the SAME fucking arguments despite every rebuttal, I call your attention to this exchange between yourself and Sir Nitram:
SIR NITRAM: If the current economy doesn't pick up, there's worse problems than SS.

THARKUN: So of course when you have problems the best thing to do is to utterly ignore everything but the biggest one. Yes all those other problems need to be looked into, however that is not carte blanche for ignoring the above problems.

SIR NITRAM: Strawman bullshit.. Why am I not surprised?

Let's see.. If the three big worries are going to produce apocalyptic-scale problems if allowed to come to fruitation, should we dick around with the minor problem, or perhaps do something about the sources?

Or we could do it the Tharkun method, and allow terrible things to happen because the only problem we even acknowledged was, OH NOES, we'd have to raise taxes a percent or so.

THARKUN: According to the National centers for Health statistics the fertility rate is 2.07 children per woman - below the replacement level. From 1990 to 1997 US birthrates declined consistently and only since then have increased. I have yet to see convincing data that the birth rate is going to be sufficient to provide an expanding population base for social security. Perhaps you could, I don't know, cite some of your numbers?

SIR NITRAM: Wow, you actually went and checked. And found that.. What? We're in the middle of a rebound by your own words? Shocker.

As I said, I never denied that population could continue to drop. What I stated(What's this? Third time I'm repeating for your braindead ass?) was that we've got much bigger problems if we ignore the causes. Of course, since you have your head crammed up your posterior, you're not wanting to try and think how to offset these by dealing with the sources.

THARKUN: Okay Bush sucks and is an idiot. Now that we have that out of the way can we talk about fixing the problem? I know DC is full of morons who want to lie, distort, and obfuscate. What I'm interested in is the fact that under the current law Social Security is in trouble and will bleed red for as far as the eye can see.

SIR NITRAM: You want a real solution to the problem? Attack the causes, you blazing retard, not the symptoms. Is the concept that the three causes for Social Security's 'OMFG IMPENDING DOOM' of being twenty percent short are going to cause alot more problems just going over your indoctorined head?
And there you are, Tharkun, simply ignoring every argument Sir Nitram makes while restating your own over and over and over.
EVERY single time social security has come up short the "solutions" have revolved around the same two tired concepts: Increase taxes, reduce benifits. That simply is not good enough. Increasing taxes requires that the government be a position where increased taxation actually brings in increased revenue, that is not a given. Decreasing benifits is lousy on two counts: first it is political suicide and second by the time the political capital is mustered to do it, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse time.
Taxation has risen and fallen as the needs of the time have demanded, so this argument is a non-starter. A restructuring of certain aspects of the tax system is also a solution which can restrain the overall effect of any tax increase on the general economy. And as lifespans continue to increase, the alternative of raising the retirement age can be presented as a logical outgrowth of an existing condition in society —a point which Sir Nitram has addressed and which you blithely dismissed along with every other argument inconvenient to you.
Everyone, but the government, utilizes investment to cut insurance costs, why is public investment so odious to you? Yes holding T-bills earns interest at low (but not zero) risk, but for a program that size it simply doesn't make sense to not optimize your risk/return tradeoff. Having investment means you can operate with a larger safety margin.
If investment cuts insurance costs, then explain to the class how Social Security's administrative costs figure at around 1% while those of private investment accounts hover at around 15-20%? As this excerpt from the Centre for Economic Policy and Analysis article demonstrates:

Link
4) Social Security is Extremely Efficient, Private Accounts Are Wasteful

On average, less than 0.6 cents of every dollar paid out in Social Security benefits goes to pay administrative costs. By comparison, systems with individual accounts, like the ones in England or Chile, waste 15 cents of every dollar paid out in benefits on administrative fees. President Bush's Social Security commission estimated that under their system of individual accounts 5 cents of every dollar would go to pay administrative costs.

In addition, under Social Security workers automatically get an annuity (a life-long monthly payment) when they retire. By contrast, financial firms typically take 10 to 20 percent of workers' savings to provide an annuity when they reach retirement.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.
The reduction in benefit as a result of inflated admin costs is one of the reasons the English are beginning to seriously reconsider the wisdom of their pension privatisation scheme.
Again if a pay as you go system works so well, why does no one set one up privately and make a killing administering it? You have no overhead, only banking costs, and even the slimest of percentages would be a healthy return for whomever runs it. Why do traditional investments dominate the private sector over pay as you go?
Because the Federal Government doesn't exist as a profit-making venture, dumbass. It doesn't have to meet the demands of delivering a high-yield return to a relatively small group of large-interest shareholders in the company. A private insurance or investment firm is set up to deliver the lion's share of its profit margin to its primary large-interest shareholders first and benefits (or dividends) to its general insurees/small-interest shareholders second —and after passing along admin costs.
Anticipating your inability to make a rational reply, let me premptively spam the thread for you:
No no no, dear boy; the idea is to present evidence in the body of your posts which bolster, not refute, your position. And labelling inconvenient facts as "spam" does not make them spam no matter how much you dearly wish to dismiss them as such.
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tharkûn
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Post by tharkûn »

This coming from Mr. Wall of Ignorance.
Don't be so hard on yourself, eventually you will see the light.
The Ponzi Scheme Strawman never had any validity to begin with and relies on the assumption that the government is nothing but a conspiracy to defraud the taxpayer instead of a civil institution meeting its responsibilities as defined under law.
No it relies upon the rules of the SEC governing investment. If you opened an investment program tomorrow with the same rules as social security, the SEC wouldn't look kindly on it.
From there, all you do is argue privatisation as the one viable alternative to a system you continue to insist is doomed to perpetual shortfall even though the CBO report says no such damn thing
No I argue that privatisation OR investment are viable options, you quoted that DIRECTLY. I further state:
"Every year action is delayed, be it simply the idiotic step of increasing the payroll taxes a percentage point, is making it harder on tommorrows workers who will have to pay more and have less time to compound interest to fix the problem?"

I talked about public investment, you even replied about that. My central point has always been that pay as you go is not robust and a better system, of which privatisation is ONE option, should be looked into.
s doomed to perpetual shortfall even though the CBO report says no such damn thing
I directly quoted the numbers showing that under the current rules social security is doomed to bleed red ink forever. The shortfall doesn't go away with the babyboomers, it doesn't go away with a tax hike - that just moves the date at which it goes red further out.
predicate that argument on the arbitrarily assumed steady decline in birthrate and the general economy for which you demonstrate no supporting evidence other than your assertion that this will come to pass.
No I predicate that upon the inability of the system to cope should such a thing occur. ROBUSTNESS.
Nevermind your equally idiotic and arbitrary assumption that Congress is simply going to take no action at all to correct the possible long-term shortfalls —I repeat that word: possible, which is a very different word from extant.
Congress may well take action, one popular action among the dominant party in congress is privatisation. Frankly this is not a new scenario payroll taxes were initially 2%, then 3%, then 4%, then 6%, then 9.2%, then 9.9% (when the system was declared "actuarily sound"), then 10.8%, then 11.4%, then 12.5%. Now when yet another shortfall looms the solution you propose is to up the tax level again. Can congress continually increase taxes to cover any shortfall? No. As many people from Kennedy to Mellon held, eventually government revenue tops off and further tax increases do not yield an appreciable increase in revenue. What will happen in the next 50 years with the tax rate? Who knows, 45 years ago the top income tax bracket was 95%, there isn't a whole lot of room there for another tax increase.
If it is not your argument that the system will inevitably collapse, as you say now, then what prompted this statement of yours:
Because the quote you have there is talking about continuing under the present rules with present projections, under the present rules the system will go bust. Sure there is a chance that wage growth will outpace the models and the system will be fine, however there is also a chance that the wage growth will lag the models and the system will go red sooner rather than later.
You are the one who keeps insisting that Social Security cannot sustain its performance and use the CBO trendline as the basis for that argument. The potential problems with the Social Security system have been recognised by the authours and analysts quoted in this thread and long before you ever got to them. The question is whether or not this represents the looming crisis scenario which the White House is very dishonestly touting in its push to scaremonger the public into buying into the privatisation scheme sight-unseen.
And you and I have different definitions of looming crisis, to you as long as the system could survive, it isn't a crisis. To me as long as the system isn't robust there is a potential crisis.
And there you are, Tharkun, simply ignoring every argument Sir Nitram makes while restating your own over and over and over.
How nice of you to cut off the next reply: namely that what in hell can the government do about the causes? If bithrates are falling what does the government do? Force women to have more children? Bribe them? Open up immigration? Or suppose the shock is because gross global oil production begins to decline, what in hell is the government's ability to change THAT?
Taxation has risen and fallen as the needs of the time have demanded, so this argument is a non-starter. A restructuring of certain aspects of the tax system is also a solution which can restrain the overall effect of any tax increase on the general economy.
So restructing certain aspects of the tax system is a minor tweak? The fact of the matter is the tax structure has varied wildly over the decades from Ike to Kennedy to Johnson to Reagan to GHWB to Dubya; it is NOT a given that the tax structure will be able to accomodate an increase to cover shortfalls.
If investment cuts insurance costs, then explain to the class how Social Security's administrative costs figure at around 1% while those of private investment accounts hover at around 15-20%? As this excerpt from the Centre for Economic Policy and Analysis article demonstrates:
Because social security DOESN'T DO ANYTHING, all they do is take money in, buy T-bills, and write checks for the vast majority of participants. Private insurance does all that and more, actually managing funds, researching investments, etc.

Again here is the challenge if the model is so efficient, why doesn't it dominate the market? Why did NO ONE offer an insurance model like that before 1935?
The reduction in benefit as a result of inflated admin costs is one of the reasons the English are beginning to seriously reconsider the wisdom of their pension privatisation scheme.
So tell my what company in England offers a private pay as you go system with near zero administrative costs? Why is there no private supplier of such a system?
Because the Federal Government doesn't exist as a profit-making venture, dumbass. It doesn't have to meet the demands of delivering a high-yield return to a relatively small group of large-interest shareholders in the company.
Irrelevant. Numerous insurance entities are NOT FOR PROFIT. Take Blue Cross, they are a bonafide nonprofit entity. Why do non-profit private insurance entities reject the pay as you go model?
private insurance or investment firm is set up to deliver the lion's share of its profit margin to its primary large-interest shareholders first and benefits (or dividends) to its general insurees/small-interest shareholders second —and after passing along admin costs.
Only if it is a for profit entity. Besides which, why can't a pay as you go system deliver a profit? Instead of lopping off .6% of the revenue, one could lop off 5% and return a healthier profit than most companies currently report.
And labelling inconvenient facts as "spam" does not make them spam no matter how much you dearly wish to dismiss them as such.
The labelling of irrelevent facts, incovenient facts does consitute spam.

Now see how easy that was, no need whatsoever at all to resort to verbatum regurgitation of other sources. I thank you for your effort.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

tharkûn wrote:
This coming from Mr. Wall of Ignorance.
Don't be so hard on yourself, eventually you will see the light.
Pot. Kettle. Black. But thank you for your comical attempt at cleverness.
The Ponzi Scheme Strawman never had any validity to begin with and relies on the assumption that the government is nothing but a conspiracy to defraud the taxpayer instead of a civil institution meeting its responsibilities as defined under law.
No it relies upon the rules of the SEC governing investment. If you opened an investment program tomorrow with the same rules as social security, the SEC wouldn't look kindly on it.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: SOCIAL SECURITY IS AN INSURANCE SYSTEM DEFINED BY LAW, YOU DISHONEST LITTLE FUCK, NOT AN INVESTMENT SCHEME. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING THICK SKULL! That spew of yours evaded the point entirely. Either provide proof that the U.S. government intends to renege on its committments and defraud the public —which is the only way the Ponzi Scheme characterisation has any validity— or stand revealed for the doctrinaire idiot you evidently are.
From there, all you do is argue privatisation as the one viable alternative to a system you continue to insist is doomed to perpetual shortfall even though the CBO report says no such damn thing
No I argue that privatisation OR investment are viable options, you quoted that DIRECTLY. I further state:

"Every year action is delayed, be it simply the idiotic step of increasing the payroll taxes a percentage point, is making it harder on tommorrows workers who will have to pay more and have less time to compound interest to fix the problem?"
The proposed investment scheme IS privatisation, dolt, or haven't you been paying attention? And trying to characterise a single percentage point raise in the payroll tax (which is NOT the fix being discussed, BTW) as anything akin to an onerous burden is loony to say the least. Furthermore, nothing in the CBO report or the analyses derived from that report states or even infers that a lack of immediate (i.e. within the coming five years) action endangers the long-term viability of Social Security. That is precisely the sort of false-crisis fearmongering which this White House has engaged in to attempt to stampede the public.
I talked about public investment, you even replied about that. My central point has always been that pay as you go is not robust and a better system, of which privatisation is ONE option, should be looked into.
Except there already is a public investment underwriting the Social Security Trust Fund: in U.S. Treasury Bonds. Exactly what part of that eludes your grasp?
I directly quoted the numbers showing that under the current rules social security is doomed to bleed red ink forever. The shortfall doesn't go away with the babyboomers, it doesn't go away with a tax hike - that just moves the date at which it goes red further out.
You quoted numbers selectively and then attempted to invent your own context to support a dishonest argument —and one not at all derived from the conclusions of the CBO report or the analyses quoted in the course of this thread and which is restated here for your benefit:

THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security you insist points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Congressional Budget Office wrote:An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.
I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
predicate that argument on the arbitrarily assumed steady decline in birthrate and the general economy for which you demonstrate no supporting evidence other than your assertion that this will come to pass.
No I predicate that upon the inability of the system to cope should such a thing occur. ROBUSTNESS.
In other words; your position is based on a huge "What-if" argument which is automatically assumed by you to be true. That's generally known in these parts as a Begging the Question Fallacy.
Nevermind your equally idiotic and arbitrary assumption that Congress is simply going to take no action at all to correct the possible long-term shortfalls —I repeat that word: possible, which is a very different word from extant.
Congress may well take action, one popular action among the dominant party in congress is privatisation. Frankly this is not a new scenario payroll taxes were initially 2%, then 3%, then 4%, then 6%, then 9.2%, then 9.9% (when the system was declared "actuarily sound"), then 10.8%, then 11.4%, then 12.5%. Now when yet another shortfall looms the solution you propose is to up the tax level again. Can congress continually increase taxes to cover any shortfall? No. As many people from Kennedy to Mellon held, eventually government revenue tops off and further tax increases do not yield an appreciable increase in revenue. What will happen in the next 50 years with the tax rate? Who knows, 45 years ago the top income tax bracket was 95%, there isn't a whole lot of room there for another tax increase.
No, dolt. The solution proposed by several writers quoted in this thread is to a) repeal the irresponsible Bush tax-cut to the top 1%, b) up the payroll-tax limit from the present $87,900 level to $110,000, and c) taxing estates valued at $7 million and above. None of these involve another percentage-point raise in the actual payroll-tax. So can we have an end to this Strawman of yours at long last? Or will you just keep trotting it out as though nobody said anything different? I'm betting it will be the latter.

And as for your "45 years ago the top bracket was 95%", it just doesn't occur to you that the reason it was at 95% was because it was necessary to finance the debt from the Second World War, as it financed the war effort (and also functioned in part to control inflation from the hyper-stimulated war economy) and affected a very small percentage of taxpayers —who never actually payed 95% due to a number of loopholes and incentives written into the law in that period. Furthermore, as nobody is talking about raising the top marginal rates even past 40%, we'll just chalk this one down as another of your Red Herrings which has no relevance to anything being discussed in any real world.
If it is not your argument that the system will inevitably collapse, as you say now, then what prompted this statement of yours:

The fiscal crisis gets worse after the baby boomers are dead and gone. A full hundred years from now the system has a shortfall and the trendline is for an INCREASING shortfall as time goes on.
Because the quote you have there is talking about continuing under the present rules with present projections, under the present rules the system will go bust. Sure there is a chance that wage growth will outpace the models and the system will be fine, however there is also a chance that the wage growth will lag the models and the system will go red sooner rather than later.
Neither condition which demands a crisis-mode rush to the risky privatisation scheme which, even according to the plan outlined by this White House, involves borrowing at such levels as to deepen, not lessen, future projected debt and create a far more unstable situation both in terms of the Federal budget and the overall economy.
You are the one who keeps insisting that Social Security cannot sustain its performance and use the CBO trendline as the basis for that argument. The potential problems with the Social Security system have been recognised by the authours and analysts quoted in this thread and long before you ever got to them. The question is whether or not this represents the looming crisis scenario which the White House is very dishonestly touting in its push to scaremonger the public into buying into the privatisation scheme sight-unseen.
And you and I have different definitions of looming crisis, to you as long as the system could survive, it isn't a crisis. To me as long as the system isn't robust there is a potential crisis.
Potential is not ACTUAL, dolt. Your personal satisfaction with the situation is not the standard of measurement here and counts for exactly dick.
And there you are, Tharkun, simply ignoring every argument Sir Nitram makes while restating your own over and over and over.
How nice of you to cut off the next reply: namely that what in hell can the government do about the causes? If bithrates are falling what does the government do? Force women to have more children? Bribe them? Open up immigration? Or suppose the shock is because gross global oil production begins to decline, what in hell is the government's ability to change THAT?
And Sir Nitram's reply after that one:
Sir Nitram wrote: And have I said this isn't possible in the future? No, I haven't, you biblical idiot. I have said that for all your Chicken Little bullshit, if these things are going to happen, the problems will make falling short on the Social Security cheques a minor concern.

Of course, you immediately seized hold of the False Dilemma of 'Ignore Social Security' or 'Attack Social Security', just like you have in the field of 'Leave it alone' or 'Privatize'.
Odd how you left that counter-reply out.
Taxation has risen and fallen as the needs of the time have demanded, so this argument is a non-starter. A restructuring of certain aspects of the tax system is also a solution which can restrain the overall effect of any tax increase on the general economy.
So restructing certain aspects of the tax system is a minor tweak? The fact of the matter is the tax structure has varied wildly over the decades from Ike to Kennedy to Johnson to Reagan to GHWB to Dubya; it is NOT a given that the tax structure will be able to accomodate an increase to cover shortfalls.
Based on what? Your mere say-so that it won't? You'll have to do better than that horseshit non-reply for an answer. How do you actually propose to argue against the mathematics of the situation as stated here:
Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:The new CBO estimates strongly underscore this point. Under the CBO projections, the benefit and tax changes needed to restore long-term solvency would be still more modest.

The Size of the Bush Tax Cuts and
the Size of the Actuarial Imbalance in the Social Security Trust Fund

As a percent of GDP

Year trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits

Social Security trust fund 75-year actuarial imbalance:


March 2004 Trustees’ Report
0.7 %
2042


June 2004 CBO report
0.4 %
2052


75-year cost of 2001-2003 tax cuts, if extended as proposed by the President:


Total cost of tax cuts
2.0 %


Tax cuts for the top one percent
0.6 %


Note: Estimates of the costs of the tax cuts derived from data supplied by the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, and assume that the tax cuts are continued the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation. Share of the tax cuts for the top one percent based on estimates provided by the Tax Policy Center


Implications for the Federal Budget as a Whole

If CBO is ultimately proved right and the Social Security shortfall is only about three-fifths the size previously thought, the required changes to restore financial balance to Social Security will be significantly smaller. Unfortunately, this will not have large implications for the budget as a whole. The nation’s long-term budget problems will be little changed if the new CBO Social Security projection is used, because Social Security is responsible for only a modest fraction of our long-term fiscal problems. Projected increases in Medicare and Medicaid costs, due to the aging of the population and the relentless rise in health care costs throughout the U.S. health care system (including the private sector), constitute a much larger factor. So do tax cuts. As the next section of this brief analysis indicates, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, their cost will dwarf the Social Security shortfall.

Social Security’s modest impact on the nation’s long-term budget problems are confirmed by projections of the long-term “fiscal gap” — the amount by which revenues must be raised and/or spending cut in order to stabilize the federal debt as a share of the economy and prevent a debt explosion that could cause serious economic damage. Economists Alan Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley and William Gale and Peter Orszag of Brookings have estimated the size of the fiscal gap over the next 75 years to be an alarming 7.2 percent of GDP.[1] Their estimate incorporates the Social Security Trustees’ projection of the Social Security shortfall. If the new CBO projection of the Social Security shortfall is used instead, the size of the long-term fiscal gap drops only a few tenths of a percentage point and remains close to 7 percent of GDP. Stated another way, at least 95 percent of the projected long-term fiscal gap remains.


Cost of the Tax Cuts Compared to the Size of the Social Security Shortfall

If the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent as the Administration has proposed, their cost over the next 75 years will be more than five times the Social Security shortfall over this period, as projected by CBO. In fact, the cost over the next 75 years of the tax cuts just for the one percent of households with the highest incomes — a group with average incomes of about $1 million per year — exceeds the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall that CBO projects.[2]


This does not mean that policymakers should avoid Social Security reform and simply cancel the high end of the tax cut instead. Given the need to reduce the very large long-term deficits the nation faces and to address other costly problems, such as how to finance health care programs and deal with the growing numbers of uninsured Americans, the bulk of the savings that would be achieved from scaling back the tax cuts will be needed elsewhere. Simply filling Social Security’s financing hole with funds from the rest of the budget, and avoiding making any changes in Social Security itself, would not be responsible.

Nevertheless, this comparison showing that the cost of the tax cuts for the most affluent one percent of taxpayers exceeds the entire Social Security shortfall is useful in illustrating why the tax cuts are unaffordable, and why making them permanent does not represent sound or responsible policy. This comparison also should cause ideologically driven claims made by those who assert that the tax cuts are reasonable and prudent but that the Social Security shortfall is gargantuan and catastrophic to be viewed with skepticism.


See what the numbers say? Cost of Bush's tax-cut over 75 years: 2% of GDP; cost of CBO projected Social Security shortfall over 75 years: .4% of GDP. Which number is actually larger, Tharkun? Which one is threatening to blow the bigger hole in the budget down the line? And what does the 75 year cost of the tax-cut to the top 1% bracket at .6% of GDP imply as to what could erase the projected Social Security shortfall?

If investment cuts insurance costs, then explain to the class how Social Security's administrative costs figure at around 1% while those of private investment accounts hover at around 15-20%? As this excerpt from the Centre for Economic Policy and Analysis article demonstrates:
Because social security DOESN'T DO ANYTHING, all they do is take money in, buy T-bills, and write checks for the vast majority of participants. Private insurance does all that and more, actually managing funds, researching investments, etc.
Because Social Security is designed to ensure a guaranteed annuity risk-free, no matter what AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. That is its responsibility under the law to the citizenry. Private insurance does all the bells-and-whistles, and at the same time imposes the far larger risks of market-collapse or fraud on its insurees. Or did you even bother to read the articles on the fraud-driven HIH collapse in Australia or that of the seven largest Japanese insurance companies due to market-collapse which were appended in an earlier reply in this thread? No? Thought so.

To quote from the story on the HIH debacle:
The fundamental problem was that HIH had been offering insurance at too low a price, and had not set aside enough capital to cover its future liabilities. This was excerbated by management and due diligence failures, which led HIH to acquire other troubled insurance businesses at too high a price during a period of rapid growth in the 1990s, as described below. The companys more detailed actions and transactions are now the subject of a Royal Commission, which begins its hearings on November 26, 2001.

During the spring and summer of 2001, the Australian federal and state governments were forced to underwrite many of the failed companys policies, and to set up funds to cover cases of genuine hardship. The bail-out will cost the Australian taxpayer well over A$1 billion, but wont cover all of HIHs obligations. Many of the companys two million policyholders and other creditors are expected to wait up to 10 years for disbursement of their funds, and might receive only around 50 cents for each dollar they claim though that figure wont be firmed up until well into 2002.

The size of the loss is so stunning that it is predicted to have a negative impact on Australias discretionary spending for some time to come, and insurance premiums have risen in the market sectors in which HIH was most influential.

Meanwhile, the principal regulator of the company, the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) has come under fierce criticism for its handling of the affair [1], and concedes that HIH had probably not put aside enough capital to cover its insurance risks for many years. The debacle took on a political flavour in summer 2001 as the Australian premier was forced to publicly rebut accusations that insurance company donations to his political party might have led politicians to soft-pedal on insurance industry regulation.

Lessons Learned

- Companies that manage risk portfolios with long tails of risk can seem successful for a long time before their risk-taking decisions catch up with them.

- Six months after the liquidators were called in, they couldn't say how much HIH had lost to the nearest billion and a half Australian dollars: risk accounting is a complex business.

- There's room for a lot of trouble to grow in the junction between risk reporting and corporate governance in a structurally complex organisation.

- Reinsurance is a double-edged weapon: it can reduce risk, but it can also leverage or obscure risk if things go wrong.
Again here is the challenge if the model is so efficient, why doesn't it dominate the market? Why did NO ONE offer an insurance model like that before 1935?
I guess the entire concept of an evolving model just whizzes right past your head, doesn't it?

In point of fact, however, Imperial Germany introduced the basic social insurance system in 1883 on the model developed by Prince Bismarck, and Social Security in the United States was predated by the existence of Civil War pensions which extended to the widows and orphans of veterans of both sides. Further, the basic concept of social safety can be traced back to the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789. Social Security was hardly a wholly new concept in 1933 when it was first proposed.

And it doesn't "dominate the market" because it isn't and never had been designed to generate huge profit on marginal risk for a small group of private investors but to provide steady and guaranteed annuities for low risk AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. Not the most attractive model for profit-seeking investment banking ventures where high-yield return is the goal. The question is whether or not it works and whether or not it has historically worked, and Social Security demonstrates by the numbers that the answer to both questions is "yes".
The reduction in benefit as a result of inflated admin costs is one of the reasons the English are beginning to seriously reconsider the wisdom of their pension privatisation scheme.
So tell my what company in England offers a private pay as you go system with near zero administrative costs? Why is there no private supplier of such a system?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: DO YOU NOT EVEN BOTHER TO READ WHAT YOU'RE PURPORTING TO REPLY TO, DOLT? What in the fuck does this Red Herring have to do with the FACT that the English have found that their pension privatisation scheme has come a cropper and that it's causing them to reconsider the issue?! And was this similar question not asked and answered already? I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
Because the Federal Government doesn't exist as a profit-making venture, dumbass. It doesn't have to meet the demands of delivering a high-yield return to a relatively small group of large-interest shareholders in the company.
Irrelevant. Numerous insurance entities are NOT FOR PROFIT. Take Blue Cross, they are a bonafide nonprofit entity. Why do non-profit private insurance entities reject the pay as you go model?
You evidently know nothing of the history of mutual benevolent aid societies in the United States and particularly in the South, which existed very largely on member subscription. Several cemeteries and vault-tombs in my home city of New Orleans, as well as numerous healthcare, pension, and charitable institutions (including hospitals) were funded for decades almost entirely through benevolent association membership subscription —or as its known in the modern vernacular: pay-as-you-go. Very common in the 19th century.

You think that by continuing to ask the same fucking question ad-infinitum you're somehow going to make a point. I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
private insurance or investment firm is set up to deliver the lion's share of its profit margin to its primary large-interest shareholders first and benefits (or dividends) to its general insurees/small-interest shareholders second —and after passing along admin costs.
Only if it is a for profit entity. Besides which, why can't a pay as you go system deliver a profit? Instead of lopping off .6% of the revenue, one could lop off 5% and return a healthier profit than most companies currently report.
Asked and answered. Again and again and again and again. But by all means, keep deluding yourself that if somebody fails to answer your 5th or 10th or 50th or whichever repetition of the same fucking point, that means it hasn't been answered.

Oh, and BTW, here's a set of handy tables at the Social Security website on investment data on the two trust funds in the system.
And labelling inconvenient facts as "spam" does not make them spam no matter how much you dearly wish to dismiss them as such.
The labelling of irrelevent facts, incovenient facts does consitute spam.
Uh uh, dolt —that's just another half-assed way of your saying "I won't even try to address the evidence that challenges my argument". To which the only suitable reply is: You Have No Argument.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

And you and I have different definitions of looming crisis, to you as long as the system could survive, it isn't a crisis. To me as long as the system isn't robust there is a potential crisis.

Potential is not ACTUAL, dolt. Your personal satisfaction with the situation is not the standard of measurement here and counts for exactly dick.
I'd like to ask what the fuck you consider to be robust thark?
I'd say the fact it could clock on for more than 50 years as is without any changes pretty fucking robust, a car that could do 50 years of constant driving without an oil change for example would be considered by most to be very robust.

The fact something needs occasional maintainance does not change whether it is robust or not. In fact, compared to the private model, the government one is the very model of robust, as barring revolution or war the government will continue...private enterprises come and go, live and die all the time. In terms of how robust the model is, having the government behind the system is by far the better option.
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Post by tharkûn »

SOCIAL SECURITY IS AN INSURANCE SYSTEM DEFINED BY LAW
As an investment program, social security is a Ponzai scheme.

As a social welfare program, social security is set up assbackwards.

As an insurance system, the system can only play cash in/cash out under stable conditions.
Either provide proof that the U.S. government intends to renege on its committments and defraud the public —which is the only way the Ponzi Scheme characterisation has any validity— or stand revealed for the doctrinaire idiot you evidently are.
BS. The law doesn't give a flying frik about your intent. If you set up a system whereby payments are used to pay out those who bought in earlier the SEC isn't going to give a rat's ass if you intent was to defraud your investors, to educate the public, or to prove that you can't grasp the limits of exponential growth. Motive is irrelevent when the question of securities fraud exists.
The proposed investment scheme IS privatisation, dolt, or haven't you been paying attention?
No privatization is where private individuals manage and or control the funds. Public municipalities invest public funds regularly.
And trying to characterise a single percentage point raise in the payroll tax (which is NOT the fix being discussed, BTW) as anything akin to an onerous burden is loony to say the least
Neither was first 1% hike back in the day, or the hike that followed that, or the hike that followed that ...

EVERY damn time social security has gotten into fiscal trouble the taxes have been raised and NEVER lowered. That is a problem, particularly when aggregate taxation may already be at T*.
Furthermore, nothing in the CBO report or the analyses derived from that report states or even infers that a lack of immediate (i.e. within the coming five years) action endangers the long-term viability of Social Security. That is precisely the sort of false-crisis fearmongering which this White House has engaged in to attempt to stampede the public.
Nothing is endangered long term waiting until the trust fund goes broke and "fixing" the system then. Every year of delay is a year lost when interest could be earned, even if it is just at T-bill rates.
Except there already is a public investment underwriting the Social Security Trust Fund: in U.S. Treasury Bonds. Exactly what part of that eludes your grasp?
The part that T-bills are not the be all end all of public investment. There are other issuances of public debt with better tradeoffs in risk vs reward if nothing else. T-bills are safe, but they don't show particularly great returns. With an entity the size of social security you have no reason not to maximize your risk vs reward trade off.
THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security you insist points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Look at their frikking graphs. The trendlines are blatant, no matter how you slice it the payouts mandated under current law will exceed the revenue as projected under current law FOREVER. There is absolutely nothing in the data suggesting a critical point in either the revenue or outlay curves.

In other words; your position is based on a huge "What-if" argument which is automatically assumed by you to be true.
No when planning a system you attempt to make it robust. When you build a bridge you ask yourself "what if" a terrorist tries to blow out at support. Every egineer on the board will tell you that robust systems are purposefully overegineered so that if something happens the system will not fail.
None of these involve another percentage-point raise in the actual payroll-tax. So can we have an end to this Strawman of yours at long last? Or will you just keep trotting it out as though nobody said anything different? I'm betting it will be the latter.
Whatever Degan the point is to cover the shortfall another percent of GDP has to go into taxation to cover the shortfall. Pull it out of payroll or some other tax, it has to be there. Of course that figure is false if any of a number assumptions or overlooked variables make things worse, take a recent example - smoking. The government is continuing to be successful at preventing teenagers from starting smoking, how is that going to affect future life expectancy, particular when coupled with medical advances? There are countless unmodeled variables that could effect the eventual outcome.

And then there is the other problem, waiting to increase taxes presupposes that when it occurs the government hasn't already passed T* and that you don't have a government too hostile to tax increases in place. 50 years is awfully far out to predict such things.
And as for your "45 years ago the top bracket was 95%", it just doesn't occur to you that the reason it was at 95% was because it was necessary to finance the debt from the Second World War, as it financed the war effort (and also functioned in part to control inflation from the hyper-stimulated war economy) and affected a very small percentage of taxpayers —who never actually payed 95% due to a number of loopholes and incentives written into the law in that period. Furthermore, as nobody is talking about raising the top marginal rates even past 40%, we'll just chalk this one down as another of your Red Herrings which has no relevance to anything being discussed in any real world.
Oh would you prefer I cite LBJ's tax figures? Or perhaps Nixon's? Maybe I should pull up tax numbers from before Mellon? The reason the Kennedy tax cuts WORKED at ended up increasing federal revenue is because the return on increased taxation was marginal. Predicting fiscal policy 50 years from and garunteeing what it will be is beyond imbecility (*wait for Degan to insert remark about how I'm beyond imbecility*).
Neither condition which demands a crisis-mode rush to the risky privatisation scheme which, even according to the plan outlined by this White House, involves borrowing at such levels as to deepen, not lessen, future projected debt and create a far more unstable situation both in terms of the Federal budget and the overall economy.
There is no risk free system in existance. Privatisation cannot just be written because it is "risky" the relative risk and reward of such a system should be looked into and if the tradeoff is favorable then it shouldn't be ruled out.
Your personal satisfaction with the situation is not the standard of measurement here and counts for exactly dick.
Pot meet Kettle, Kettle, Pot.

See what the numbers say? Cost of Bush's tax-cut over 75 years: 2% of GDP; cost of CBO projected Social Security shortfall over 75 years: .4% of GDP. Which number is actually larger, Tharkun? Which one is threatening to blow the bigger hole in the budget down the line? And what does the 75 year cost of the tax-cut to the top 1% bracket at .6% of GDP imply as to what could erase the projected Social Security shortfall?
Come on Degan, you and I both know that ALL of these numbers are just peices of a larger puzzle and the largest number looming is medicare which Bush royally dicked. I haven't the time nor the inclination to produce of litany of numbers driving the budget ever so slowly towards busting, I can say which direction social security is going and that it doesn't help the budget. At best a pay as you go system is money in/money out under static conditions. AT BEST.

Wonderful you want to rollback the Bush tax cuts or at least let them expire in 10 years, fine and you know that that is going to be politically or fiscally plausible how?
Because Social Security is designed to ensure a guaranteed annuity risk-free, no matter what AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. That is its responsibility under the law to the citizenry. Private insurance does all the bells-and-whistles, and at the same time imposes the far larger risks of market-collapse or fraud on its insurees.
Bells-and-whistles, otherwise known as investing and seeing a return on your money in real dollars. Yes private insurance can collapse upon fraud, so what? Statistically one can simply include the likelihood of fraud and market-collapse (oh wait isn't there where we have bigger problems again?) into the costs of the system. In otherwords if there are 20 insurers that social security is using and there is a 5% chance any one of them will go bust, but there other 19 offer 6% interest then even including the risk pay as you go falls behind. With trillions of dollars one can diversify and buy into every company on the market.
Or did you even bother to read the articles on the fraud-driven HIH collapse in Australia or that of the seven largest Japanese insurance companies due to market-collapse which were appended in an earlier reply in this thread
Yes I did, and frankly it is BS. When you put money into anything there is a risk it will go bust. Everything from the local pub to the government has the potential fall tits up. Rather than deliver a lengthy and irrelevent diatribe about the problems of Japanese business practices I will simply state that with sufficiently diverse investment the risk that any one entity or family of entities will go tits up is not sufficient to make the whole system collapse.
In point of fact, however, Imperial Germany introduced the basic social insurance system in 1883 on the model developed by Prince Bismarck, and Social Security in the United States was predated by the existence of Civil War pensions which extended to the widows and orphans of veterans of both sides. Further, the basic concept of social safety can be traced back to the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789. Social Security was hardly a wholly new concept in 1933 when it was first proposed.
In other words only governments have ever offered a pay as you go system because the system fails when it faces competition. Concession accepted.
And it doesn't "dominate the market" because it isn't and never had been designed to generate huge profit on marginal risk for a small group of private investors but to provide steady and guaranteed annuities for low risk AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. Not the most attractive model for profit-seeking investment banking ventures where high-yield return is the goal
Show me a non-governmental insurance entity that uses pay as you go. For profit, not-for profit, I don't care.

does this Red Herring have to do with the FACT that the English have found that their pension privatisation scheme has come a cropper and that it's causing them to reconsider the issue?! And was this similar question not asked and answered already? I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
Because there are 1,000,001 ways to do a privitisation system wrong. The FACT is that America's public social security scheme is going down the crapper (under current rules) and Americans are reconsidering the issue (starting with GWB). You can cite examples where private models have gone tits up, bully for you. I can cite examples where public models have done the same, starting with the gratitiutiously obvious example of Germany.

The question is where else do we see pay as you go systems? The answer is other governments. Why don't not-for-profit insurance entities use a pay as you go system?
You evidently know nothing of the history of mutual benevolent aid societies in the United States and particularly in the South, which existed very largely on member subscription. Several cemeteries and vault-tombs in my home city of New Orleans, as well as numerous healthcare, pension, and charitable institutions (including hospitals) were funded for decades almost entirely through benevolent association membership subscription —or as its known in the modern vernacular: pay-as-you-go. Very common in the 19th century.
Thankyou, then it should be effortless for you to cite one.
Oh, and BTW, here's a set of handy tables at the Social Security website on investment data on the two trust funds in the system.
Gives:
An error was encountered when reading your request.

Besides which, why can't a pay as you go system deliver a profit? Instead of lopping off .6% of the revenue, one could lop off 5% and return a healthier profit than most companies currently report.
Uh uh, dolt —that's just another half-assed way of your saying "I won't even try to address the evidence that challenges my argument". To which the only suitable reply is: You Have No Argument.
No that's my way saying you are spamming the thread with red herring BS. Congress pays social security: conceeded and never gainsayed.

I know you enjoy beleiving that everyone who disagrees with you has never read the sources that reinforce your own beleifs, but frankly I have. When you post verbatum points I know and AM NOT DEBATING it is pure gratiutious spam.
I'd like to ask what the fuck you consider to be robust thark?
I'd say the fact it could clock on for more than 50 years as is without any changes pretty fucking robust, a car that could do 50 years of constant driving without an oil change for example would be considered by most to be very robust.
A robust system is one in which deviations from baseline would be mitigated and the system would eventually return to equilibrium.

As it stands, once social security gets off baseline there is no bringing it back.
The fact something needs occasional maintainance does not change whether it is robust or not. In fact, compared to the private model, the government one is the very model of robust, as barring revolution or war the government will continue...private enterprises come and go, live and die all the time. In terms of how robust the model is, having the government behind the system is by far the better option.
The public model has inertia, it is incredibly hard to start moving, but it is also incredibly hard to stop. Yes individual private entities may go bust, however the aggregate are far more adaptable.

Take another oft toted "Crisis", one I beleive Degan agrees with. If the US government runs at a loss and the debt increases faster than GDP then eventually the country is screwed into default, inflation, or other assorted horrrors. Due to the size of the US government the present debt load (which is outgrowing GDP) can be carried for decades. Is deficit financing with no end in sight robust merely because it takes six decades to get to default?
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Post by SirNitram »

tharkûn wrote:
SOCIAL SECURITY IS AN INSURANCE SYSTEM DEFINED BY LAW
As an investment program, social security is a Ponzai scheme.
'If we ignore the actual purpose, the stated intent, and the legal definition of the system in favor of my completely fallacious strawman, it's bad! IT'S BAD! DAMN YOU AND YOUR FACTS IT'S BAD!'

Jesus H. Christ, are you high?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

tharkûn wrote:As an investment program, social security is a Ponzai scheme.
Either provide proof that the U.S. goverment intends to defraud the taxpayers by not fulfilling its obligations under law, which is the only way the Ponzi Scheme Strawman applies, or admit that you have no argument. I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
As a social welfare program, social security is set up assbackwards.
Because you say so? Uh uh. It provides a guaranteed annuity along the lines of insurance programmes which existed before the expansion from defined benefit packages, and is backed with the revenues from taxation and the bond securities which are the backbone of the trust fund. The set-up is straightforward. Simply because it doesn't perform in the manner you think it should does not make it "ass-backward" no matter how many times you sit there and chant it. Either deal with defintions as they exist in the real world and not in the netherworld of your imagination, or admit that you have no argument. I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
As an insurance system, the system can only play cash in/cash out under stable conditions.
The same thing can be said of any insurance system, so this alleged point is utterly meaningless.
Either provide proof that the U.S. government intends to renege on its committments and defraud the public —which is the only way the Ponzi Scheme characterisation has any validity— or stand revealed for the doctrinaire idiot you evidently are.
BS. The law doesn't give a flying frik about your intent. If you set up a system whereby payments are used to pay out those who bought in earlier the SEC isn't going to give a rat's ass if you intent was to defraud your investors, to educate the public, or to prove that you can't grasp the limits of exponential growth. Motive is irrelevent when the question of securities fraud exists.
Your bullshit, actually. Intent figures very prominently in the law, as even a pre-law student will tell you. And Social Security isn't subject to the authority of the SEC or its definitions but those of the United States Treasury Department and the laws defining the existence of the programme as mandated by Congress. The only way you are going to make the Ponzi Scheme Strawman fly is if you can demonstrate that the government is going to default on its obligations and in fact has no intention of fulfilling them. Either meet that challenge, or admit that you have no argument. I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
The proposed investment scheme IS privatisation, dolt, or haven't you been paying attention?
No privatization is where private individuals manage and or control the funds. Public municipalities invest public funds regularly.
Is it really going to be necessary to quote George Bush on his plan? He very cleary states that his concept is based on people opting out of the system and diverting their payroll tax into stock investments of their choice and not simply shifting payroll taxes into a stock portfolio package selected by the federal government. That is privatisation, not municipal investment (which the present setup based on Treasury Bonds is). In fact, the latest article on Wikipedia defines it thusly:
Wikipedia wrote:Bush's proposal

As of late 2004, Bush has stated that one of his top legislative priorities for 2005 is a major change in the Social Security system. Although the details have not yet been announced, it is expected that he will propose a plan that would channel some of the payroll tax receipts into what are called Private Retirement Accounts. Current retirees and those soon to retire would see little change, but later retirees would receive lower benefits.

Major components

The Bush proposal is expected to include a partial privatization arrangement, in which individual workers would be allowed to choose to divert some portion of the payroll taxes they pay into an individual account. To continue to pay benefits to current retirees despite this drop in current payroll tax receipts available for the purpose, the government would borrow the difference, estimated to be at least a trillion dollars over the course of the phasing-in period. In addition, benefits would be cut by being indexed to prices rather than wages.
And trying to characterise a single percentage point raise in the payroll tax (which is NOT the fix being discussed, BTW) as anything akin to an onerous burden is loony to say the least
Neither was first 1% hike back in the day, or the hike that followed that, or the hike that followed that ...
Slippery Slope Fallacy.
EVERY damn time social security has gotten into fiscal trouble the taxes have been raised and NEVER lowered. That is a problem, particularly when aggregate taxation may already be at T*.
Which has nothing to do with the proposals actually being discussed and is therefore another Red Herring of yours. Next:
Furthermore, nothing in the CBO report or the analyses derived from that report states or even infers that a lack of immediate (i.e. within the coming five years) action endangers the long-term viability of Social Security. That is precisely the sort of false-crisis fearmongering which this White House has engaged in to attempt to stampede the public.
Nothing is endangered long term waiting until the trust fund goes broke and "fixing" the system then. Every year of delay is a year lost when interest could be earned, even if it is just at T-bill rates.
NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT WAITING UNTIL THE FUND ACTUALLY GOES BROKE, YOU FUCKING LOON! The entire purpose of the CBO report is to demonstrate projections as a guide to legislation to adjust the structure of the system for the present Congress, not the Congress of 2042 or 2052. You certainly love your False Dilemmas, don't you?
Except there already is a public investment underwriting the Social Security Trust Fund: in U.S. Treasury Bonds. Exactly what part of that eludes your grasp?
The part that T-bills are not the be all end all of public investment. There are other issuances of public debt with better tradeoffs in risk vs reward if nothing else. T-bills are safe, but they don't show particularly great returns. With an entity the size of social security you have no reason not to maximize your risk vs reward trade off.
When the imperative is to guarantee steady if moderate growth as opposed to gambling on riskier ventures in more volatile markets in order to ensure sufficent funds years down the road to meet defined obligations, "safe" is the preferred strategy. That is why funding trends for Social Security are predictable and how SSA and the Congress can keep track of possible trends with reasonable certainty. That this approach doesn't personally suit you means exactly dick.

And as for other issuances of public debt with better tradeoffs, they also carry far greater risks and municipalities have gone bankrupt or have skirted close to bankruptcy when those funds have gone south with the market. Part of New York City's problems in the 1970s stemmed from the failure of its municipal investments when the stock market and the general economy stagnated (although even a steady-growth fund wouldn't have helped much given the irresponsible spending practises of the Lindsay administration).
THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security you insist points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Look at their frikking graphs. The trendlines are blatant, no matter how you slice it the payouts mandated under current law will exceed the revenue as projected under current law FOREVER. There is absolutely nothing in the data suggesting a critical point in either the revenue or outlay curves.
I've looked at their graphs, and read their conclusions as well, which you're hell-bent on ignoring so you can simply keep screaming "RED INK FOREVER" in the hysterical tone we're coming to expect from you. I'll quote those conclusions again for your benefit:
An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.
In no part of that text is the report screaming RED INK FOREVER, THE SYSTEM'S GOING TO COLLAPSE BLAAAAARGH!!! The entire purpose of the CBO report is to inform the Congress of possible problems in the future as a guide for administering corrections to avert them. I fail to understand just why this perfectly understandable fact is so goddamned difficult for you to grasp. That's probably why the phrase "under current law" is used as the qualifier. At least three possible alternative funding methods have been outined by economic analysts studying the data from the CBO report to avert the possible crisis which can only occur if no action is actually taken to correct the trend leading to a possible problem.
In other words; your position is based on a huge "What-if" argument which is automatically assumed by you to be true.
No when planning a system you attempt to make it robust. When you build a bridge you ask yourself "what if" a terrorist tries to blow out at support. Every egineer on the board will tell you that robust systems are purposefully overegineered so that if something happens the system will not fail.
And every engineer on this board would find your approach to "robustness" laughable considering that you clearly have no clue as to what the concept actually means in either engineering or finance. "Robustness" does not entail exchanging solid support members with well-defined stress characteristics for ones whose stability cannot be predicted or relied upon long-term. Keevan Colton asked you for your definition of a "robust" system, to which you gave this little non-answer:
A robust system is one in which deviations from baseline would be mitigated and the system would eventually return to equilibrium.
Because population trends and economics are always dynamic situations, the equilibrium is always shifting. There is no fixed baseline which can be defined for any period of time beyond 40 or 50 years and no point of repose which you seem to imagine is there. This is why it is necessary to adjust the system periodically in the first place.
None of these involve another percentage-point raise in the actual payroll-tax. So can we have an end to this Strawman of yours at long last? Or will you just keep trotting it out as though nobody said anything different? I'm betting it will be the latter.
Whatever Degan the point is to cover the shortfall another percent of GDP has to go into taxation to cover the shortfall. Pull it out of payroll or some other tax, it has to be there. Of course that figure is false if any of a number assumptions or overlooked variables make things worse, take a recent example - smoking. The government is continuing to be successful at preventing teenagers from starting smoking, how is that going to affect future life expectancy, particular when coupled with medical advances? There are countless unmodeled variables that could effect the eventual outcome.
Exactly what part of "the plans being discussed do not involve raising the actual payroll tax rate by another percentage point" is so fucking difficult for you?! I keep asking this question and I've yet to get a credible answer in any of the Strawman you've put up and in any of the Red Herrings you've dragged forth like that latest bit of drivel above.
And then there is the other problem, waiting to increase taxes presupposes that when it occurs the government hasn't already passed T* and that you don't have a government too hostile to tax increases in place. 50 years is awfully far out to predict such things.
Are you actually so goddamned dense that you really can state the fixes or whatever tax increases might be required will not even be discussed for another fifty years?!?! Are you insane or just simply dishonest?
And as for your "45 years ago the top bracket was 95%", it just doesn't occur to you that the reason it was at 95% was because it was necessary to finance the debt from the Second World War, as it financed the war effort (and also functioned in part to control inflation from the hyper-stimulated war economy) and affected a very small percentage of taxpayers —who never actually payed 95% due to a number of loopholes and incentives written into the law in that period. Furthermore, as nobody is talking about raising the top marginal rates even past 40%, we'll just chalk this one down as another of your Red Herrings which has no relevance to anything being discussed in any real world.
Oh would you prefer I cite LBJ's tax figures? Or perhaps Nixon's? Maybe I should pull up tax numbers from before Mellon? The reason the Kennedy tax cuts WORKED at ended up increasing federal revenue is because the return on increased taxation was marginal. Predicting fiscal policy 50 years from and garunteeing what it will be is beyond imbecility (*wait for Degan to insert remark about how I'm beyond imbecility*).
I love how you keep resorting to extremes in this discusison when nothing along those lines is even being entertained as a serious policy alternative in regards to the Social Security issue. Please try to stick to the actual topic if you could manage it for even five minutes.
Neither condition which demands a crisis-mode rush to the risky privatisation scheme which, even according to the plan outlined by this White House, involves borrowing at such levels as to deepen, not lessen, future projected debt and create a far more unstable situation both in terms of the Federal budget and the overall economy.
There is no risk free system in existance. Privatisation cannot just be written because it is "risky" the relative risk and reward of such a system should be looked into and if the tradeoff is favorable then it shouldn't be ruled out.
Nobody says there is no risk-free system in existence. There are however systems which entail the least risk possible to provide performance required to meet a guaranteed target and offer predictability for future trends. Privatisation is not only theoretically risky in terms of Social Security but has proven risky in the pension crisis in Britain and the pension disaster in Argentina.
Your personal satisfaction with the situation is not the standard of measurement here and counts for exactly dick.
Pot meet Kettle, Kettle, Pot.
Looked into a mirror when typing that attempt at a witticism?

See what the numbers say? Cost of Bush's tax-cut over 75 years: 2% of GDP; cost of CBO projected Social Security shortfall over 75 years: .4% of GDP. Which number is actually larger, Tharkun? Which one is threatening to blow the bigger hole in the budget down the line? And what does the 75 year cost of the tax-cut to the top 1% bracket at .6% of GDP imply as to what could erase the projected Social Security shortfall?
Come on Degan, you and I both know that ALL of these numbers are just peices of a larger puzzle and the largest number looming is medicare which Bush royally dicked. I haven't the time nor the inclination to produce of litany of numbers driving the budget ever so slowly towards busting, I can say which direction social security is going and that it doesn't help the budget. At best a pay as you go system is money in/money out under static conditions. AT BEST.
Nice way of evading the point. The numbers in terms of the possible Social Security deficit v. the cost of the Bush tax-cut say you don't have an argument. And as for the Social Security problem in the overall context of the federal budget problem, Social Security's share of that deficit amounts to only 5% of the overall situation. On those terms, Social Security's actual effect on the budget is almost negligible.
Wonderful you want to rollback the Bush tax cuts or at least let them expire in 10 years, fine and you know that that is going to be politically or fiscally plausible how?
Because people want to know they're going to have their Social Security when they retire. You'd be surprised how that would make rolling back Bush's cut for the top 1% to ensure that very politically plausible. Simple mathematics have already demonstrated its fiscal plausibility.
Because Social Security is designed to ensure a guaranteed annuity risk-free, no matter what AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. That is its responsibility under the law to the citizenry. Private insurance does all the bells-and-whistles, and at the same time imposes the far larger risks of market-collapse or fraud on its insurees.
Bells-and-whistles, otherwise known as investing and seeing a return on your money in real dollars. Yes private insurance can collapse upon fraud, so what? Statistically one can simply include the likelihood of fraud and market-collapse (oh wait isn't there where we have bigger problems again?) into the costs of the system. In otherwords if there are 20 insurers that social security is using and there is a 5% chance any one of them will go bust, but there other 19 offer 6% interest then even including the risk pay as you go falls behind. With trillions of dollars one can diversify and buy into every company on the market.
But statistically, market-collapse (or instability) or fraud are far more likely than the default and collapse of the government. This is why treasury bonds are the far more secure investment even if they don't provide the high-yield return for maximum profitability. And if the government would actually collapse, the rest of the country —including the stock market— would certainly go along with it. And as Sir Nitram has pointed out, that means far greater problems than meeting the Social Security cheques.
Or did you even bother to read the articles on the fraud-driven HIH collapse in Australia or that of the seven largest Japanese insurance companies due to market-collapse which were appended in an earlier reply in this thread
Yes I did, and frankly it is BS. When you put money into anything there is a risk it will go bust. Everything from the local pub to the government has the potential fall tits up. Rather than deliver a lengthy and irrelevent diatribe about the problems of Japanese business practices I will simply state that with sufficiently diverse investment the risk that any one entity or family of entities will go tits up is not sufficient to make the whole system collapse.
It's BS that it happened? In what parallel-universe is that definition valid? And I really hope you're not saying that a government is as likely to collapse as the local pub to go bankrupt; it will only make you sillier than you've already shown yourself to be.
In point of fact, however, Imperial Germany introduced the basic social insurance system in 1883 on the model developed by Prince Bismarck, and Social Security in the United States was predated by the existence of Civil War pensions which extended to the widows and orphans of veterans of both sides. Further, the basic concept of social safety can be traced back to the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789. Social Security was hardly a wholly new concept in 1933 when it was first proposed.
In other words only governments have ever offered a pay as you go system because the system fails when it faces competition. Concession accepted.
Concession non-extant. Your out-of-context quote demonstrates nothing, particularly as the original question concerned just when the concept of Social Security originated and why, in your endless bloviating on this matter, "nobody thought of it before the 1930s".
And it doesn't "dominate the market" because it isn't and never had been designed to generate huge profit on marginal risk for a small group of private investors but to provide steady and guaranteed annuities for low risk AS A PUBLIC SERVICE. Not the most attractive model for profit-seeking investment banking ventures where high-yield return is the goal
Show me a non-governmental insurance entity that uses pay as you go. For profit, not-for profit, I don't care.
I already have, dolt.
does this Red Herring have to do with the FACT that the English have found that their pension privatisation scheme has come a cropper and that it's causing them to reconsider the issue?! And was this similar question not asked and answered already? I grow tired of your endless bullshit.
Because there are 1,000,001 ways to do a privitisation system wrong. The FACT is that America's public social security scheme is going down the crapper (under current rules)
Which is not actually the case, but do continue your hysterical ranting...
and Americans are reconsidering the issue (starting with GWB). You can cite examples where private models have gone tits up, bully for you. I can cite examples where public models have done the same, starting with the gratitiutiously obvious example of Germany.
The "gratuitously obvious example" of Germany actually is no such example at all of anything other than a False Cause Fallacy on your part. Germany's problems weren't driven by its social insurance system but by its massive war debt following the punitive terms of Versailles and the overall collapse of its economy on the heels of the worldwide depression —triggered by American protectionism which crippled world trade.
You evidently know nothing of the history of mutual benevolent aid societies in the United States and particularly in the South, which existed very largely on member subscription. Several cemeteries and vault-tombs in my home city of New Orleans, as well as numerous healthcare, pension, and charitable institutions (including hospitals) were funded for decades almost entirely through benevolent association membership subscription —or as its known in the modern vernacular: pay-as-you-go. Very common in the 19th century.
Thankyou, then it should be effortless for you to cite one.
The Independent Order of Odd Fellows. The International Order of Elks. The Firemen's Charitable Benevolent Association. The Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club. The Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (Victoria, BC). The Hungarian Sick-Benefit Society (Kitchener, Ontario). Shall I go on?
Oh, and BTW, here's a set of handy tables at the Social Security website on investment data on the two trust funds in the system.
Besides which, why can't a pay as you go system deliver a profit? Instead of lopping off .6% of the revenue, one could lop off 5% and return a healthier profit than most companies currently report.
The present balance in the Social Security system indicates far more income than outlay. By any definition, that is "profit". I'm sorry if that doesn't suit you. The data tables at the SSA website demonstrate that the trust fund is holding $1.7 trillion in investment assets earning interest at 5.5%. Demonstrate how that is not an example of the system earning on its investments please.
Uh uh, dolt —that's just another half-assed way of your saying "I won't even try to address the evidence that challenges my argument". To which the only suitable reply is: You Have No Argument.
No that's my way saying you are spamming the thread with red herring BS. Congress pays social security: conceeded and never gainsayed.

I know you enjoy beleiving that everyone who disagrees with you has never read the sources that reinforce your own beleifs, but frankly I have. When you post verbatum points I know and AM NOT DEBATING it is pure gratiutious spam.
Evade, evade, evade. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. The Tharkun Way of Debate. Keep up the dance for as long as you think you can get away with it.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

And now, for everyone's benefit, a restatement of the evidence which undermines Mr. Tharkun's position but which he hopes desperately to bury under his ever-growing Mountain of Bullshit:

a basic rundown of the myths commonly floated about Social Security:
The Basics
5 myths about Social Security
System reform is a hotbed of controversy. But to move ahead, we've got to identify the myths, toss them aside and refocus on realities.

By Liz Pulliam Weston


You can’t write about Social Security and not get flooded with angry e-mails representing all points of the political spectrum. From those who dub it “Socialist Insecurity” to those who hold their checks to be an inalienable right, people often have passionate and firmly held beliefs about the system.

Unfortunately, sometimes those beliefs are based on myths. In the interest of more honest debate, let’s review some of these legends.

Myth No.1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you’ll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It’s called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.

What isn’t in the trust fund is a big hoard of cash.

Three-quarters of the money that’s collected in Social Security taxes goes right out the door again in the form of benefits to Social Security recipients. The surplus that isn’t needed to pay benefits is loaned to the federal government to pay for other programs.

In return for this loan, the trust fund gets IOUs in the form of special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. The interest isn’t paid in cash, however; the Treasury department issues the fund additional bonds for the interest amount. Last year, the fund was credited with $80 billion in interest; the total value of the securities is about $1.5 trillion.

Critics often deride these bonds as “a bookkeeping entry” or a fiction, but they’re real obligations of the U.S. government, said Steve Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary. In the past, they’ve been cashed in when Social Security or its sister program, Medicare, temporarily ran low on funds. The last time was in the early 1980s.

“They’re backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government,” Goss said. “They’re every bit as real . . . as any savings bond or Treasury bond any individual might hold in society.”

The problem, of course, is that the government now owes the trust fund so much money -- and relies on its surplus so heavily -- that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it’s already issued.

Myth No.2: Congress doesn’t pay into Social Security, so it doesn’t care about fixing the crisis. The idea that U.S. lawmakers don’t pay into Social Security is 20 years out of date. Before 1984, U.S. representatives and senators -- like all other federal employees -- weren’t covered by Social Security and didn’t pay into the system. Congress passed a law in 1983, which took effect the next year, requiring all its members (and all federal employees hired after that year) to participate in the system.

This myth is often accompanied by the assertion that Congress participates in a private pension scheme that pays them their salaries for the rest of their lives. In fact, the Civil Service Retirement System, which covered federal employees in earlier decades, was closed to new participants after 1983. The pensions available under this old system depend on the federal worker’s pay and tenure with the government, but by law can’t exceed 80% of the final year’s pay. Benefits paid under the system are reduced by the amount of Social Security the participant receives.

The reason Congress hasn’t fixed the Social Security crisis is politics. The most likely solutions -- raising taxes, cutting benefits, establishing private accounts or some combination of the three -- all face strong opposition. In addition, the people currently receiving benefits are represented by one of the strongest, most politically-connected lobbies in existence: AARP. The 20-something workers who likely will pay the cost for Congressional inaction don’t have nearly the same clout.

Life expectancy and disappearing assets
Myth No.3: Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then. The average life expectancy for a baby girl born in 1935 was about 63 years. For a baby boy, it was about 59 years.

But those statistics reflect the higher infant and child mortality rates of the times. If you survived childhood, you had a good shot of living beyond retirement age. Men who lived to age 30 in 1935 could expect to last another 37 years. Women at 30 had a 40-year average life expectancy.

If you actually reached retirement age, your prospects for a relatively long retirement were good. Men who were 65 in 1935 could expect to live another 12 years, while women faced an average 13 more years. (Today, men of the same age can expect to live another 16 years, and women 19 years.)

In fact, about half of the 30 state pension plans that existed in 1935, and many of the private pension plans, used 65 as a retirement age. Most of the others used age 70. Social Security’s creators thought 65 was the more reasonable age and believed the system could be self-sustaining if they chose that age.

Myth No.4: Social Security will run out of money in 2042. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2042. What may have disappeared by then are the assets in the Social Security trust fund.

Even that isn’t cast in stone, however. The Congressional Budget Office in June projected that the trust fund wouldn’t dry up until 10 years later, in 2052. The CBO used different assumptions than those used by the Social Security Administration, projecting faster growth in worker earnings, higher interest rates and lower inflation.

Here’s how the Social Security Administration projects the timeline:

* In 2018, Social Security will begin paying out more than it takes in. For the first time, it will have to use the interest being paid on the securities it holds in order to meet its obligations.

* In 2028, Social Security would have to start redeeming the securities themselves.

* By 2042, Social Security would have cashed in the last security, and the system would have enough revenue to pay out only 73% of promised benefits. That percentage would drop over time if Congress failed to act.

Demographics and add-ons
Myth No.5: Social Security wouldn’t be having problems if foreigners weren’t able to claim Social Security benefits. The number of checks sent overseas in 2002 totaled 404,640 -- a tiny fraction of the 53 million or so checks Social Security issues annually. Many of those folks may well be Americans who retired abroad (some of whom I profiled in “Retire like royalty in a low-cost paradise”). Social Security doesn’t break down the overseas checks by citizenship.

In any case, foreign workers who live in the United States have to work and pay taxes into the system for at least 10 years to qualify for Social Security benefits, just as U.S. citizens do.

What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.

In 1950, there were 16 workers for every person receiving Social Security benefits. By 2015, there will be only three workers for each beneficiary. Fifteen years after that, the ratio will be down to 2.2 to 1.

Even that demographic shift wouldn’t be such a disaster if Social Security hadn’t expanded far beyond its original mandate of providing retirement benefits for workers. About 30% of Social Security’s total benefits are paid to retirees’ dependents and survivors and to disabled workers.

Here’s a summary of the add-ons over the years:

* In 1939, five years after Social Security began, Congress added payments for the families of workers who died, and for retirees’ dependents (such as stay-at-home spouses).

* In 1956, Congress added disability benefits for workers.

* In 1974, Supplemental Security Income or SSI was established as a welfare program for low-income seniors and people with disabilities.

* In 1965, Congress established Medicare to pay health-care costs for seniors.

Of these add-ons, however, only the first two -- disability benefits and payments to dependents, widows, orphans -- actually affect Social Security’s bottom line.

SSI benefits are paid out of the federal government’s general revenues. Medicare is paid for with its own tax and has its own trust fund.

(Medicare is in far worse shape than Social Security. Medicare’s trustees project insolvency in 2019, 23 years before the earliest date Social Security is scheduled to run aground. Medicare has an unfunded liability of $27.7 trillion over the next 75 years, while Social Security’s unfunded liability for the same period is $3.7 trillion. To put this in perspective, the entire national debt is currently about $7 trillion.)

Like Medicare, the disability insurance program also has its own tax and its own trust fund. But the disability fund’s results are combined with that of the retirement system when Social Security insolvency projections are made, Goss said, and account for $700 billion of the $3.7 trillion unfunded liability.

If the disabled, the dependent and the survivors were booted out of the system, Social Security could pay for itself --assuming tax levels remained the same.

“The system would be more than adequately funded,” Goss said, “if only retirees were receiving benefits.”

That’s not a solution Goss -- or anyone else who really thinks about it -- could endorse. Even if it were morally viable, kicking out all the widows, orphans, disabled and stay-at-home spouses is politically untenable.

So we’re back to choosing from the same controversial list of options: cutting benefits, raising taxes, privatizing some or all of the system. What we choose, though, should be based on the realities of the system -- not the myths.

Liz Pulliam Weston's column appears every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions in the Your Money message board.
Now for the more comprehensive body of evidence against his claims:

THIS is the summary of conclusions from the CBO report on Social Security he insists points to a situation of "perpetual shortfall":
Congressional Budget Office wrote:An alternative that accounts for the imbalance between projected Social Security revenues and outlays is the ratio of trust-fund-financed benefits to payroll taxes, shown with solid lines in Figure 2-6. Because trust-fund-financed benefits decline after the trust funds are exhausted, that ratio also declines in later years.

In Social Security, as in any pay-as-you-go social insurance system, earlier generations of participants received very high benefits relative to the taxes they paid. As a result of that windfall, later generations will receive total benefits that are lower, on average, than the total taxes they paid. That low benefit-to-tax ratio is not an indication of inefficiency in the system; it merely reflects a transfer from current and future beneficiaries to earlier generations.

The benefit-to-tax ratio is higher for workers with lower lifetime earnings than for those with higher earnings. That outcome results in part from Social Security's progressive benefit formula. Low lifetime earners are also more likely to include recipients of disabled-worker, spousal, or survivor benefits--who receive benefits in excess of the payroll taxes they pay, reflecting the insurance nature of the Social Security system. (The effect of disabled-worker benefits on the benefit-to-tax ratio can be seen by examining ratios for DI and OASI workers separately. Figures showing that information are available here.)

Conclusions

Those different measures of the benefits received and taxes paid, broken down by age and income group, lead to different insights about the impact of Social Security under current law.

* High earners receive higher benefits than low earners do, and future generations will receive larger benefits than current beneficiaries do, even after adjustment for inflation and even if benefits cannot be paid as scheduled once the trust funds are exhausted.

* Conversely, low earners have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced by Social Security than high earners do, and current beneficiaries have a larger percentage of their earnings replaced than future generations will.

* Future beneficiaries will not only receive higher annual benefits than today's beneficiaries but will live longer, on average; thus, they will receive greater total benefits over their lifetime.

* The payroll tax is a constant percentage of taxable earnings, which means that because taxable earnings are projected to rise over time (even after adjustment for inflation), future generations will pay higher taxes.

* For workers with low lifetime household earnings, total Social Security benefits received over a lifetime are higher, on average, than dedicated taxes paid over a lifetime. For workers with average and above-average earnings, the reverse is true. If benefits were reduced across the board because of the projected shortfall in revenues, the general pattern of taxes paid relative to benefits received would remain similar for each income group.

And THIS is a comprehensive analysis of the CBO report which isn't saying that the system is facing eventual collapse at all:
Centre for Economic and Policy Research wrote:Basic Facts on Social Security and Proposed Benefit Cuts/Privatization

Dean Baker and David Rosnick1

November 16, 2004


1) Social Security is Financially Sound

According to the Social Security trustees report, the standard basis for analyzing Social Security, the program can pay all benefits through the year 2042, with no changes whatsoever. Even after 2042 the program would always be able to pay retirees a higher benefit (in today's dollars) than what current retirees receive. The assessment of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office is that Social Security is even stronger. It projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through the year 2052 with no changes whatsoever. By either measure, Social Security is more financially sound today than it has been throughout most of its 69-year history.

Image
Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


2) President Bush's Social Security Cuts Would Be Large

The proposal that President Bush is using as the basis for his plan phases in cuts over time. A worker who is 45 today can expect to see a cut in guaranteed benefits of around 15 percent. A worker who is age 35 can expect to see a cut in the guaranteed benefit of approximately 25 percent. A 15 year old who is just entering the work force can expect a benefit cut of close to 40 percent. For a 15 year old, this cut would mean a loss of close to $160,000 in Social Security benefits over the course of their retirement.

Private accounts will allow workers to earn back only a small fraction of this amount. For example, a 15 year-old can expect to make back approximately $50,000 from the $160,000 cut with the earnings on a private account. If this worker retires when the market is in a slump, then it could make their loss even bigger.


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Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.

3) Imaginary Stock Returns Don't Offset Real Benefit Cuts

Proponents of private accounts have often used highly exaggerated assumptions on stock returns to argue for the benefits of private accounts. For example, even at the height of the stock bubble in 2000, when the price to earnings ratio in the market exceeded 30 to 1, many proponents of private accounts assumed that stocks would generate 7.0 percent real returns annually. This assumption was absurd on its face - it implied that price to earnings ratios would rise to levels of more than 100 to 1. Unfortunately, even the Social Security Administration has used these unfounded assumptions in assessing privatization plans.

Given current price to earnings ratios and the Social Security trustees' profit growth projections, real stock returns will average less than 5.0 percent annually. Some proponents of private accounts are still using exaggerated stock return assumptions to advance their case.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


4) Social Security is Extremely Efficient, Private Accounts Are Wasteful

On average, less than 0.6 cents of every dollar paid out in Social Security benefits goes to pay administrative costs. By comparison, systems with individual accounts, like the ones in England or Chile, waste 15 cents of every dollar paid out in benefits on administrative fees. President Bush's Social Security commission estimated that under their system of individual accounts 5 cents of every dollar would go to pay administrative costs.

In addition, under Social Security workers automatically get an annuity (a life-long monthly payment) when they retire. By contrast, financial firms typically take 10 to 20 percent of workers' savings to provide an annuity when they reach retirement.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


5) Social Security Pays the Most to Those Who Need it Most

Social Security benefits are highly progressive, so that low wage workers get a much higher share of their wages in benefits than do high wage workers. A worker who earned $10,000 a year during their working lifetime can expect to see a benefit that is equal to approximately 75 percent of their average wage. A worker who earned $33,000 a year will get a benefit that is equal to approximately 45 percent of their wage, while a worker who earned $50,000 on average will get a benefit that is equal to 39 percent of their wage.

While poorer workers do not live as long as higher paid workers, the progressive benefit structure largely offsets differences in life expectancy (as do disability and survivors benefits for those who do not live to normal retirement age). Furthermore, since plans are being made for the distant future, the United States could reduce the gaps in life expectancy by income and race, as other countries have done.


Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


6) The Projected Shortfall is No Larger Than What We Have Seen In Past Decades

It has been necessary to raise Social Security taxes in the past, primarily because people are living longer than they used to. The tax increase that would be needed to make the program fully funded over its seventy five year planning period is actually smaller than tax increases we have seen in prior decades. In other words - it would have made more sense to talk of a Social Security "crisis" in 1965 than in 2005. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office estimates, Social Security can be made solvent throughout its seventy five year planning period with a tax increase that is less than one quarter as large as the one in the eighties.

While tax increases are never popular, the fact is that prior tax increases did not prevent decades like the fifties or sixties from being periods of great prosperity. Of course, if the economy maintains anywhere near its recent pace of growth, any tax increases can be put off for many decades into the future, and possibly forever.



Image
Source: SSA and authors’ calculations.


7) Young Workers Will Still See Much Higher Wages If Taxes Are Increased

If it proves necessary to raise more money for Social Security through taxes, workers will still see large increases in their after-tax wages. This is true even if they end up paying a larger share of their wages in Social Security taxes. According to the Social Security trustees' projections, the average after-Social Security tax wage for a worker in 2050, will still be more than 70 percent higher than it is today, even if taxes are raised to keep the program solvent. The CBO projections imply an even larger increase in after-tax wages.

Raising payroll taxes is not the only way to increase the revenue for Social Security. An alternative is to raise the ceiling on taxable wages. Currently, no Social Security taxes are paid on income earned above $87,900 in any given year. If the ceiling were raised to $110,000 to cover 90 percent of the country's income from wages (the level set by the Greenspan commission in 1983), it would eliminate approximately 40 percent of the projected funding shortfall. Using the CBO projections, this change alone would be almost enough to make the program solvent through the seventy-five year planning period.


Image
Source: SSA, CBO, and authors’ calculations.


8 ) The Bush Proposal Phases Out Social Security as We Know It

President Bush's proposal gradually shrinks the traditional guaranteed Social Security so that it will eventually become irrelevant for middle income workers. For today's twenty year old average wage earners, the guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 15 percent of their annual earnings when they reach retirement age. The guaranteed benefit will be equal to just 7 percent of annual earnings for a child born ten years from now.

As the traditional Social Security benefit becomes less important for middle-income workers, Social Security will increasingly become a poor people's program. This may be a clever strategy if the purpose is to undermine political support for Social Security; it is not a good way to structure the program if we expect it to be there for our children and grandchildren.


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Source: President’s Commission to Strengthen Social Security and Author’s Calculations.



Footnotes:

1. Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy research., David Rosnick, provided research assistance and or comments on earlier drafts of this paper.
And THIS analysis also disputes the ideology that Social Security is facing "perpetual shortfall" and is therefore unfixable:
Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROJECTIONS ISSUED BY THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE
by Robert Greenstein, Peter Orszag and Richard Kogan


A new Congressional Budget Office analysis released today, which has been several years in the making, projects that the long-term shortfall in Social Security financing is 47 percent smaller than the Social Security Trustees have projected.

* The Trustees project that the Social Security shortfall over the next 75 years equals 1.89 percent of taxable payroll over the 75-year period. CBO projects the shortfall to be 1.0 percent of taxable payroll, or 47 percent less than the Trustees project.

* Measured as a share of the economy, the Trustees project that the shortfall equals 0.7 percent of GDP over the next 75 years. The CBO figures reflect a shortfall of about 0.4 percent of GDP.

* Similarly, the Trustees project that the trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits starting in 2042. CBO’s estimate is 2052; after that time about 80 percent of benefits could be paid.

These differences are due primarily to differences in economic assumptions, along with methodological differences.

CBO’s report emphasizes other measures of the imbalance in Social Security. The figures reported above reflect the traditional 75-year actuarial measure, which has long been used to examine Social Security’s finances.

Implications for Social Security

Two important books written by four of the nation’s leading Social Security experts — Countdown to Reform: The Great Social Security Debate by Henry Aaron and Robert Reischauer, and Saving Social Security: A Balanced Approach by Peter Diamond and Peter Orszag — have shown, using the Trustees’ projections, that long-term Social Security solvency can be restored by modest benefit and payroll tax changes that are phased in over a number of years. These books, as well as proposals developed by other experts, have shown that radical changes in Social Security’s structure — including the replacement of part of Social Security with private accounts that carry greater risk for individual beneficiaries — are not necessary to restore long-term solvency.

The new CBO estimates strongly underscore this point. Under the CBO projections, the benefit and tax changes needed to restore long-term solvency would be still more modest.

The Size of the Bush Tax Cuts and
the Size of the Actuarial Imbalance in the Social Security Trust Fund

As a percent of GDP

Year trust fund will be unable to pay full benefits

Social Security trust fund 75-year actuarial imbalance:


March 2004 Trustees’ Report
0.7 %
2042


June 2004 CBO report
0.4 %
2052


75-year cost of 2001-2003 tax cuts, if extended as proposed by the President:


Total cost of tax cuts
2.0 %


Tax cuts for the top one percent
0.6 %


Note: Estimates of the costs of the tax cuts derived from data supplied by the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, and assume that the tax cuts are continued the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation. Share of the tax cuts for the top one percent based on estimates provided by the Tax Policy Center


Implications for the Federal Budget as a Whole

If CBO is ultimately proved right and the Social Security shortfall is only about three-fifths the size previously thought, the required changes to restore financial balance to Social Security will be significantly smaller. Unfortunately, this will not have large implications for the budget as a whole. The nation’s long-term budget problems will be little changed if the new CBO Social Security projection is used, because Social Security is responsible for only a modest fraction of our long-term fiscal problems. Projected increases in Medicare and Medicaid costs, due to the aging of the population and the relentless rise in health care costs throughout the U.S. health care system (including the private sector), constitute a much larger factor. So do tax cuts. As the next section of this brief analysis indicates, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, their cost will dwarf the Social Security shortfall.

Social Security’s modest impact on the nation’s long-term budget problems are confirmed by projections of the long-term “fiscal gap” — the amount by which revenues must be raised and/or spending cut in order to stabilize the federal debt as a share of the economy and prevent a debt explosion that could cause serious economic damage. Economists Alan Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley and William Gale and Peter Orszag of Brookings have estimated the size of the fiscal gap over the next 75 years to be an alarming 7.2 percent of GDP.[1] Their estimate incorporates the Social Security Trustees’ projection of the Social Security shortfall. If the new CBO projection of the Social Security shortfall is used instead, the size of the long-term fiscal gap drops only a few tenths of a percentage point and remains close to 7 percent of GDP. Stated another way, at least 95 percent of the projected long-term fiscal gap remains.


Cost of the Tax Cuts Compared to the Size of the Social Security Shortfall

If the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent as the Administration has proposed, their cost over the next 75 years will be more than five times the Social Security shortfall over this period, as projected by CBO. In fact, the cost over the next 75 years of the tax cuts just for the one percent of households with the highest incomes — a group with average incomes of about $1 million per year — exceeds the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall that CBO projects.[2]


This does not mean that policymakers should avoid Social Security reform and simply cancel the high end of the tax cut instead. Given the need to reduce the very large long-term deficits the nation faces and to address other costly problems, such as how to finance health care programs and deal with the growing numbers of uninsured Americans, the bulk of the savings that would be achieved from scaling back the tax cuts will be needed elsewhere. Simply filling Social Security’s financing hole with funds from the rest of the budget, and avoiding making any changes in Social Security itself, would not be responsible.

Nevertheless, this comparison showing that the cost of the tax cuts for the most affluent one percent of taxpayers exceeds the entire Social Security shortfall is useful in illustrating why the tax cuts are unaffordable, and why making them permanent does not represent sound or responsible policy. This comparison also should cause ideologically driven claims made by those who assert that the tax cuts are reasonable and prudent but that the Social Security shortfall is gargantuan and catastrophic to be viewed with skepticism.


Estate Tax Reform Can Contribute to Social Security Solvency

Although the bulk of savings from scaling back the tax cuts should not be dedicated to Social Security and other Social Security reforms are essential, it is reasonable to consider dedicating the revenue that could be secured from one specific change in the 2001 tax cut to a larger Social Security reform effort. CBO’s new projections should spark increased interest in the idea of reforming rather than repealing the estate tax, by limiting the estate tax on a permanent basis to the tiny number of very large estates that will still be subject to the tax in 2009, and dedicating the estate tax revenues that remain to the Social Security Trust Fund. Diamond and Orszag, in their recent book on Social Security reform, suggest consideration of this option. Under the new CBO estimates, adopting this approach would reduce the size of the Social Security shortfall by about 40 percent.

* In 2001, before the large tax cut enacted that year took effect, estates worth less than $675,000 for an individual and $1.35 million for a couple were exempt from the estate tax. As a result, the estates of about 98 percent of Americans who died were exempt from the tax.

* By 2009, estates worth up to $3.5 million for an individual and $7 million for a couple will be exempt from the estate tax. Data from the Urban Institute-Brookings Tax Policy Center show that the estates of 99.7 percent of Americans who die will be exempt from the tax in 2009.[3]

* This means that going beyond the estate tax parameters that will be in effect in 2009 and repealing the estate tax altogether would benefit the estates of only the wealthiest 0.3 percent (i.e., the wealthiest three of every 1,000) people who die. Those would be the only estates that otherwise would still be subject to the tax.

* If instead, the estate tax is retained for this very small group of estates and the estate tax proceeds are dedicated to Social Security, approximately 40 percent of CBO’s projected Social Security shortfall would be closed.

Tax Policy Center data show that if this step is not taken and the estate tax is repealed, more than half of the tax-cut benefits that result from repealing the tax rather than retaining it at its 2009 parameters will go to roughly the 500 biggest estates each year. These very large estates will reap a tax-cut benefit worth an average of more than $15 million per estate.

Closing about 40 percent of the Social Security shortfall that CBO projects (or about 25 percent of the shortfall that the Social Security Trustees project) seems a much sounder use of these resources than eliminating the estate tax entirely in order to provide lavish tax-cut benefits to the estates of the nation’s richest individuals. It also should be noted that under the estate-tax reform proposal described here, the small number of very large estates that would continue owing estate tax would themselves receive a hefty reduction in the estate tax that they must pay, compared with the amounts that such estates pay today, since the first $7 million of the assets in these large estates would be exempt from the tax.


Conclusion

CBO’s projections of a substantially smaller Social Security deficit over the next 75 years are an important addition to the Social Security debate. It is not possible to determine at this point whether the CBO projection or the Trustees’ projection is the better one. The sources of the differences between the two projections are the subject of active examination and debate by Social Security experts.

Even under the Trustees’ assumptions, Social Security solvency can be restored with modest program reforms. The CBO projections only underscore this point. Radical changes in the program are not necessary to restore solvency. The CBO projections also underscore the fact that Social Security is responsible for only a relatively modest share of the nation’s serious long-term fiscal gap. The recent tax cuts, if made permanent, will be a significantly larger contributor to our long-term fiscal problems. Indeed, as this analysis explains, the cost of the tax cuts just for the top one percent of households will be larger over the next 75 years than the entire 75-year Social Security shortfall under the CBO projections. Finally, as discussed above, consideration should be given to retaining the estate tax at its shrunken 2009 parameters rather than repealing it altogether, and dedicating the remaining estate tax revenues to Social Security as part of a larger reform that shores up the program for the long term.


End Notes:

[1] Alan J. Auerbach, William G. Gale, and Peter R. Orszag, “Sources of the Long-term Gap,” Tax Notes, May 24, 2004.

[2] The figures cited here for the cost of the 2001, 2002, and 2003 tax cuts represent their cost (in present value, as a percentage of GDP) through 2078 if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are extended and made permanent in the way that the Administration has proposed. Our estimate of the cost of the tax cuts — 2.0 percent of GDP — is based on estimates by CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation. The estimate also assumes that the Alternative Minimum Tax is indexed for inflation, using CBO figures published in January 2004 in its baseline report. Although CBO’s estimate of the cost of indexing the AMT is not directly added to our figures, CBO’s data show that under an indexed AMT, the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would be more expensive because the AMT would “take back” less of these tax cuts. It is this incremental cost that is included in our estimate. We assume that after 2014, the cost of the tax cuts remains a constant share of GDP, an assumption that is very likely to be conservative. The resulting estimate of the long-term cost of the tax cuts (2.0 percent of GDP) is slightly smaller than the estimate of 2.2 percent of GDP from the Auerbach, Gale, and Orszag paper, op cit. The difference mostly arises from small methodological differences in how the AMT is reflected in the figures.

[3] The Tax Policy Center data estimate the number of estates that will still be subject to the estate tax in 2009. This figure represents 0.3 percent of the number of deaths projected to occur in 2009. For the purposes of determining total deaths (estates) in each year, the TPC model uses the 1996 U.S. Annuity Basic Tables available on the website of the Society of Actuaries (http://www.soa.org) combined with age-specific population data reported by the Bureau of the Census.


This website offers a few quick-reference charts and figures indicating that U.S. population is projected to increase by 47% from its 2000 level over the next 46 years taking into account both birthrate and immigration. Without immigration, that increase would be only 16%. As this note at NPG outlines:

Negative Population Growth wrote:FAST FACTS ABOUT U.S. POPULATION GROWTH

The United States has the highest growth rates of any industrialized country in the world.

*The U.S. population is growing by about 3.2 million people each year.

*Using the Census Bureau's medium projections, U.S. population is expected to grow to 400 million by the year 2050. Eight states have population growth rates over 2.0%, which means their population will double in less than 35 years. Florida’s population has grown from 1.9 million in 1940 to 15 million today. That is over a 600% increase in just 50 years.
Oh, and if he wishes to indulge an Attacking the Messenger Fallacy against NPG on ideological grounds to try to discount the facts given, this little dynamic population pyramid graphic at the U.S. Census website should underline the facts quite effectively.

And to reinforce the point, from the tables at this page from the U.S. Census website:
United States/2005
Total, all ages 295,734,134

United States/2010
Total, all ages 309,162,581

United States/2015
Total, all ages 322,592,787

United States/2020
Total, all ages 336,031,546

United States/2025
Total, all ages 349,666,199

United States/2030
Total, all ages 363,811,435

United States/2035
Total, all ages 378,113,238

United States/2040
Total, all ages 392,172,658

United States/2045
Total, all ages 406,089,392

United States/2050
Total, all ages 420,080,587
From there, the tables break down into population by sex and age groups. Furthermore, even the application of basic mathematics shows that the retirement-age percentage of the population will comprise only about 20% of the total U.S. population by 2045, with the working age percentage hovering around 53%; sufficient base to support the Social Security system.

The numbers clearly undercut the Chicken-Little bullshit that the U.S. population is going to flatten out or go into steady decline and that therefore Social Security will become untenable due to a shrinking base.

To sum up the basic facts and figures:

• Social Security is projected to remain quite solvent through 2052, and that even if there are no changes in the structure of benefits as defined in current law, retirees will still be receiving higher proportions of benefits than the generations which proceeded them. The Congressional Budget Office report is in no way suggesting that the system is facing eventual collapse or that it is unfixable, but merely projecting possible trends as a guide to legislation, as has been done numerous times in the past.

• To fix the present projected imbalance would require little more than rescinding the more irresponsible of Bush's tax-cuts to the top 1% of earners (which threatens a general budgetary shortfall five times greater than the projected Social Security shortfall) and to raise the cap on the payroll tax to the $110,000 mark, while reforming the Estate Tax to asses only those estates valued at $7 million or above. These are, at most, minor adjustments to the present tax system which would more or less restore the pre-Bush status-quo.

• The payroll-tax increases required to support Social Security's long-term solvency at this point would amount to less than a quarter of the tax increases passed by Congress in the 1980s and signed into law by Ronald Reagan to ensure the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund twenty years ago.

• The present condition of the Social Security system, even with the projected shortfall, is far better than what was projected back in 1965.

• Projected population trends clearly show the the U.S. population will increase by about 47% beyond the 2000 census level to a population of 408 million, factoring in both birthrate and immigration. Furthermore, the proportion of retirees to working-age members of the society of 2045 and 2050 is going to remain very clearly slanted in favour of the working age percentile. There is no demographic time-bomb ticking away which will explode the contributor base for Social Security.

In short, there is no immediate or looming crisis which requires the radical solution of privatisation, no matter how much Tharkun screams hysterically to the contrary and ignores, distorts, or outright misrepresents the evidence. And if he insists on continuing to pile up his Wall of Ignorance ever higher, it will simply be necessary to keep burying him with the truth until he learns his lesson.
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frigidmagi
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Post by frigidmagi »

If I may ask? How much of that population growth is more people being born and how much is people living longer?

Thanks.
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Post by Broomstick »

tharkûn wrote:
The point was that the entire argument advocating a stock market-based scheme ignores the fact that entering the market is a gamble on timing.
Yes but a gamble most people win. There will be hard luck cases, but that is why you have welfare. There is a trade off between risk and reward, the optimal expected outcome is going to involve an element of risk.
Ah, capitalism... it allows for really big winners... and equally big losers....

A couple points:

Not everyone wants to gamble with their future. The future is a gamble anyway, and there are plenty of folks that simply do not want to add any more risk, even for a potential gain. They'd rather have a modest assured income than gamble that for bigger potential returns that, if they don't materialize, will result in a worse situation than if they had played it safe. THEIR "optimal outcome" isn't trying for higher gains, it's maintaining a known income.

The conservatives have ALSO been cutting back on welfare, reducing that safety-net as well. Those who dismiss the risk "oh well, there will be hard luck cases" have probably never experienced dire poverty themselves, and are clearly assuming that they will not be among the losers. Which is foolish - there's no guarantee where any one of us will be in 20, 30, or 40 years.

This scheme will ALSO reduce benefits to the disabled. A fact that has not been publicized at all, but which is still a fact. The disabled are, by definition, unable to work, will be unable to divert any of their non-existant income into "personal accounts", and will therefore be even worse off than they are now regardless of how well the stock market does.

Now, maybe YOU don't mind living in a society where the "hard luck" cases are left to starve the and the disabled are left destitute, but that's a hard, cold sort of place to live. And it doesn't have to be that way.
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Post by Broomstick »

tharkûn wrote:One thing that does bring down birthrates is the trend towards delaying motherhood and marriage. Women are increasingly having careers before children thus waiting until they are less likely to have children to begin families.
And if you privatize social security you will only intensify this trend, because women will have to have careers before children or risk starvation in old age. You can't "invest" if you are earning no income, and no one pays women to have babies and raise them. So... you get more working mothers (which horrifies conservatives) or you get women deciding that being able to keep a roof overhead and food on the table at 80 outweighs their need to get pregnant at 20.

You could argue that women should rely on their husband's income and investments, but not all women with children are married (some are widowed, for instance). Also, such a couple would be even further ahead if they remained childless and invested the incomes of two people, vs. investing from one income while supporting three or more on that same income.

In other words, you increase the incentive to NOT have children.
Start pushing back the age at which you're paid social security. It's one of those 'blindingly obvious things', shining like the sun. THe problem is people are living longer, healthier lives, so they don't need to retire as early.
If you can vote that through congress against AARP you deserve to run the damn country. As it stands the best you can do is to delay the payout date for children born this year, which isn't going to do squat for the program. A big part of the problem is that one cannot count on Congress to buck the senior citizens lobby.
I am 40 years old.

I can not collect social security until I am 67.

They have already increased the age at which you get the benefit, how can you argue they can't increase it further? Maybe we should increase it to 70 for those who are 20 today.

How can you say increasing the retirement age from 65 is impossible when it has already been done?
B. Have government regulated and insured accounts.
If the government insures the accounts, removing the risk, how is that different than what we have today?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Now, maybe YOU don't mind living in a society where the "hard luck" cases are left to starve the and the disabled are left destitute, but that's a hard, cold sort of place to live. And it doesn't have to be that way.
The notion of privatising the social saftey net is positively libertarian, it was their favourite fictional spokesperson that said:
"Are there no prisons? No workhouses?"

The fact is, the notion of privatized social saftey was big back in the 19th century...we've moved 100 years on from that now and people starving in the streets has taken a dramatic downturn.
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