Comparing bombing of Dresden with the holocaust

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2005-01-22 03:37pm

Not quite sure if this is the appropriate place.
An member of the saxon parliament ( a federal state parliament) has compared the bombing runs against german cities during world war II with the holocaust article in german

Jürgen Gansel wrote: Der Bomben-Holocaust von Dresden steht ursächlich weder im Zusammenhang mit dem 1. September 1939 noch mit dem 30. Januar 1933. Mit dem heutigen Tag haben wir auch in diesem Parlament den politischen Kampf gegen die Schuldknechtschaft des deutschen Volkes und für die historische Wahrhaftigkeit aufgenommen

Translation:
The bombing-holocaust of Dresden has no causal relation with neither the 1st September 1939 nor with the 30th january 1933, With today we have carried the political battle against the enslavement** of the german people* and for the historical truth into this parliament.

*another possible translation of deuschten Volkes would be german nation
**
Schuldknechtschaft (literally debtservantship) is not exactly enslavement, but a better translation I don't know. Basically you are forced into slavery till you paid off your debt. Debt and guild are covered by the same word (Schuld) in german.

Someother fun stuff (also from other NPD members of parliament):
Calling the 8th May 1945 the "so-called day of liberation"
Saying that the "same massmurderes" eradicating Dresden on the 13th february are now on the way to "starting new wars".
At the opening of the parliament meeting the NPD faction has denied (?) to partiscipate in a minute of remembrance for the victims of nationalsocialism and leaving the parliament during it.
That came after the NPD has asked for/demanded a minute of remembrance for the victims of air attack of the 13rd february 1945.

Seems that on february the 13rd we will get a demonstration again by right extremists.
About 5000 will come from allover germany.
So I would wager that there will be around 10k to 15k rightextremists marching through to the street.
And me demonstrating against them.

I want to retch.
I really want to go the next parliament meeting and throw fowled tomatoes anytime a speaker of the NPD is at the micro.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2005-01-22 03:55pm

While there was no justification for the bombing of Dresden and it should rightfully be remembered in imfamy, those comments are beyond absurd.

BTW, isn't the NPD some far-right extremist pseudo-Nazi party?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-01-22 04:12pm

Ma Deuce wrote:While there was no justification for the bombing of Dresden and it should rightfully be remembered in imfamy, those comments are beyond absurd.

Well said.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-22 04:14pm

Schuldknechtschaft (literally debtservantship) is not exactly enslavement, but a better translation I don't know. Basically you are forced into slavery till you paid off your debt.

The term would be expressed as indentured servitude in English.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2005-01-22 04:34pm

Erase the Pseudo.
They want Poland back.
I'm not kidding here.
They want freaking Poland back.

Translated parts in italics

Programm NPD wrote: 10. Deutschland in seinen geschichtlich gewachsenen Grenzen

Die Wiederherstellung Deutschlands ist mit der Vereinigung der Besatzungskonstruktionen BRD und DDR nicht erreicht.

The reconstitution/reconstruction of germany is not finished with the unification of the occupier-constructed BRD and DDR.

Deutschland ist größer als die Bundesrepublik!

Germany is larger then the federal republic!

Die ersatzlose Streichung der Feindstaatenklauseln in der Charta der Vereinten Nationen ist eine Voraussetzung für die Gleichberechtigung der Völker.

Wir fordern die Revision der nach dem Krieg abgeschlossenen Grenzanerkennungsverträge.

We demand the revision of the border treaties (literally: border acknowledgement treaties) signed after the war.
There are a couple of statements even more deranged, but I miss the skill to translate them accurately.

Unrecht kann niemals die Grundlage eines dauerhaften Friedens zwischen Völkern sein. Dies zeigt sich deutlich im letzten Jahrzehnt des 20. Jahrhunderts, in dem die Völker vom Balkan bis zum Baltikum unter den Spätfolgen des Ersten Weltkriegs leiden.

Die unsere Geschichte mißachtende und gegen das Völkerrecht verstoßende bedingungslose Preisgabe deutscher Gebiete ist nicht hinzunehmen.
Wir beharren konsequent auf einer gerechten und dem Frieden auf Dauer dienenden Regelung.

Die Staatenwelt ordnet sich neu. Im Rahmen dieser Neuordnung muß Deutschland - in Übereinstimmung mit dem Völkerrecht und dem Abkommen von Helsinki - eine friedliche Politik zur Wiedervereinigung innerhalb seiner geschichtlich gewachsenen Grenzen betreiben.

In der Zwischenzeit besteht die Pflicht, Millionen von Deutschen in den abgetrennten Gebieten zu helfen, ihre deutsche Kultur und ihre nationale Identität zu bewahren.

They were already slated for being banned* but that failed thanks to the pure incompentence of the several offices for the protection of the constitution (Ämter für Verfassungschutz).
Every state as well as the federal state has one. They are tasked with the surveillance of groups in opposition to the basic law (be they Marxists, fascists, ecoterrorists, islamic fundamentalists, or what ever else.)
Problem is they do not coordinate with each other.
So when it came to banning the NPD it looked like half of the people were working for the Verfassungschutz.
Joke went around that the only thing the Schlapphüte had to do to bankrupt the NPD was stop paying their informants.
Then during the elections in saxony last year they got 9 percent of the vote and managed to sent 12 MPs into the state parliament.

*to quote article 18 German basic law
Whoever abuses the freedom of expression, in particular the freedom of the press (paragraph (1) of Article 5), the freedom of teaching (paragraph (3) of Article 5), the freedom of assembly (Article

, the freedom of association (Article 9), the privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications (Article 10), the rights of property (Article 14), or the right of asylum (Article 16a) in order to combat the free democratic basic order shall forfeit these basic rights. This forfeiture and its extent shall be declared by the Federal Constitutional Court.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2005-01-22 04:38pm

Ma Deuce wrote:While there was no justification for the bombing of Dresden and it should rightfully be remembered in imfamy, those comments are beyond absurd.

Their behaviour is like the behaviour of an rapist and massmurder demanding to get out of prisons because police hit him once during arrest.

"Look, the police is evil, they hit me, that's as bad as what I did, and they did it without provocation !"

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-01-22 04:38pm

Ma Deuce wrote:BTW, isn't the NPD some far-right extremist pseudo-Nazi party?

News over here commented that "now the NPD is showing their true, deep-brown face" (where brown was the color of the national-socialist party).

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2005-01-22 05:32pm

If there is any Allied atrocity which can be compared with the holocaust (and isn't to blame on the USSR), it's the internment of Americans who happened to be of Japanese extraction. The bombing of Dresden is more akin to the Luftwaffe's bombing of Warszaw than anything else, really...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-01-22 05:46pm

well vonnegut was a POW in Dresden during the bombing....

I believe he compared it worse then Hiroshima/Nagisaki and better then Nanking

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-01-22 07:16pm

If there is any Allied atrocity which can be compared with the holocaust (and isn't to blame on the USSR), it's the internment of Americans who happened to be of Japanese extraction. The bombing of Dresden is more akin to the Luftwaffe's bombing of Warszaw than anything else, really...

That's a joke, right? The internment camps don't even approach the Holocaust in any way, shape, or form.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2005-01-22 07:22pm

A comparison is in some respects fair, since the two events shared some similarities. Naturally, there were also some mighty big differences, namely the fact that we didn't kill six million Japanese. To equate them is pure folly.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-22 08:52pm

it´s really scary that there were enough dickwipes to vote these scumbags into parliament in saxony. i hope this desease doesnt spread.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-01-22 09:13pm

Curiosity Question: When you say "voted into parliament in Saxony", does that mean they were voted into the regional legislature? Is Saxony a province, and it's Parliament akin to a US State legislature? I assume so, but still curious.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2005-01-22 09:17pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Curiosity Question: When you say "voted into parliament in Saxony", does that mean they were voted into the regional legislature? Is Saxony a province, and it's Parliament akin to a US State legislature? I assume so, but still curious.

Here you go:

German system of states

It is a bit complicated at first.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-01-22 09:32pm

Where's Elsass-Lothringen on that list?

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2005-01-22 09:35pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Where's Elsass-Lothringen on that list?

Don't let one of the frogs hear your joke, he/she could misunderstand it.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-22 09:46pm

Where's Elsass-Lothringen on that list?

they also forgot mallorca.

HemlockGrey wrote:Curiosity Question: When you say "voted into parliament in Saxony", does that mean they were voted into the regional legislature? Is Saxony a province, and it's Parliament akin to a US State legislature? I assume so, but still curious.

saxony is a province. privinces are governed by their "landtag". the landtag consists of 124 members. the NPD (the nationalist fuckers) in saxony got 9.2 percent.
the landtag controls province based laws and the province budget.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2005-01-23 06:16am

I just hope the prosecution service really charges them with incitement of the people and relativisation of th Holocaust.
Maybe now they get their act together and manage an unhampered case to ban the NPD. They deserve it.

And properly translated, there are no "provinces" but federal states comprising Germany.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2005-01-23 06:19am

salm wrote: saxony is a province. privinces are governed by their "landtag". the landtag consists of 124 members. the NPD (the nationalist fuckers) in saxony got 9.2 percent.
the landtag controls province based laws and the province budget.

It is, as said above, not a province, but a federal state.
And to note, not every federal state has a parliament of exactly 124

You might also note that the DVU, another nationalistic Neo-Nazi party got elected into another eastern state parliament. A shame really.

And a federal state and its parliament, hold many powers, not far from american states, though German ones are a bit more wierdly connected and interconected with the federal government.