No Relief for the Abe Lincoln

[MKSheppard]

But But but, you need people on the ground! For we know that advanced military reconnaisance aircraft and highly trained photo analysts can't
do what a crack team of UN slackers can!

[Coyote]

It costs gas to carry those aid workers home. Gas ain't cheep.

Oh, I'm sorry I thought this part of the rant was about how they were taking up space for aid.

Use of fuel was indeed part of the editorial. In case you don't know, fuel, weight, and space are all part of an incredibly careful balance on an aircraft-- especially a helicopter.

Or they might be coming back, where there's better communication facilities to arrange what has to go where tommorow to keep the maximum number of people alive.

It takes the whole chopper load of them to run back to the carrier each night to send a message? One guy couldn't do it? They couldn't take a radio with them and relay messages back to the carrier? I have a radio six feet from me that they can use, it reaches for miles. You're spin-doctoring.

It isnt that simple, you dont just keep dumping supplies in the same places,

Who said it was the same places? And besides, once supplies ar edropped off, they will be used up, so a re-supply has to be in the cards somewhere.... right?

... which village needs the most food right now, which one has enough fresh water so that those supplies can go to another in more need, which need medicine right away.

The deputy mayor of Phoenix, Dan Rather, and MTV are experts at this sort of assessment, then.

[Keevan_Colton]

It costs gas to carry those aid workers home. Gas ain't cheep.

Oh, I'm sorry I thought this part of the rant was about how they were taking up space for aid.

Use of fuel was indeed part of the editorial. In case you don't know, fuel, weight, and space are all part of an incredibly careful balance on an aircraft-- especially a helicopter.

Yep, but Mr Ranty there is going on about them coming back to the ship each night, which is a minor fuel concern particularly when taken with with sailing out to international waters business.

It takes the whole chopper load of them to run back to the carrier each night to send a message? One guy couldn't do it? They couldn't take a radio with them and relay messages back to the carrier? I have a radio six feet from me that they can use, it reaches for miles. You're spin-doctoring.

Did Mr Ranty there say how many were going out each day? Did he say they all went to the same places on the same helos?

Who said it was the same places? And besides, once supplies ar edropped off, they will be used up, so a re-supply has to be in the cards somewhere.... right?

Yep.

The deputy mayor of Phoenix, Dan Rather, and MTV are experts at this sort of assessment, then.

Who work for which aid organisation?
They arent aid workers and they can buy their own flights for all I care. I'm talking about charity workers (peopel not working for a profit) who are making use of facilities offered by the US to help the relief effort.

This shit bag in the editorial falls down for blaming everyone else for thwa the US government has seen fit to offer and being a spiteful little bastard towards them for accepting it. I've no problem with criticism where it's due, but his editorial is more than 90% garbage and he cant keep ontarget with what's left.

I'll also add, which satelite recon images can tell if a village is in urgent need of certain medical supplies?

[Mr Bean]

Elfdart bullshitting split and moved to the HoS any further refence to that in this thread will be deleted from HOI

[Master of Ossus]

Yep, but Mr Ranty there is going on about them coming back to the ship each night, which is a minor fuel concern particularly when taken with with sailing out to international waters business.

Fuck off. Did it not occur to you that if the choppers are flying people out somewhere then, assuming they actually ARE assessing the damage, they have to be flying them back IN the next day? Did it not occur to you that it would be dramatically easier to move them from one place on the island to another than take them back to the ship, or that it takes fuel to ferry them around? Just because the US volunteered its resources to help the relief effort does not give the UN free reign to take advantage of their hospitality, and to unnecessarily burden the US and its taxpayers.

Did Mr Ranty there say how many were going out each day? Did he say they all went to the same places on the same helos?

Who gives a flying fuck? Whether it's one person or ten thousand the point is the same: these aid workers are not being efficient, and are unfairly spending US tax dollars for minimal gain.

The deputy mayor of Phoenix, Dan Rather, and MTV are experts at this sort of assessment, then.

Who work for which aid organisation?
They arent aid workers and they can buy their own flights for all I care. I'm talking about charity workers (peopel not working for a profit) who are making use of facilities offered by the US to help the relief effort.

You mean "taking advantage of the US's resources."

This shit bag in the editorial falls down for blaming everyone else for thwa the US government has seen fit to offer and being a spiteful little bastard towards them for accepting it.

Just because the US volunteered to send resources to the area does not give anyone else free reign to waste taxpayer dollars on their bullshit relief missions.

[Coyote]

Mr Ranty there is going on about them coming back to the ship each night, which is a minor fuel concern particularly when taken with with sailing out to international waters business.

If they fly back to the carrier empty, it consumes less fuel. If they have to factor in a bunch of hitch-hikers, that limits the range they can fly out with.

Fuel consumption and payload on a helicopter are not trivial matters. Saving fuel to bring home just four guys (say 200lbs each) and all their gear (another 50-100 lbs each, possibly) is going to put them at factoring fuel for an extra 1000lbs that does not need to be there.

That much fuel might have gotten them another ten kilomyers into the jungle where they could have spotted a village that was previously missed.

Did Mr Ranty there say how many were going out each day? Did he say they all went to the same places on the same helos?

They were precisely criticised for not spending the night out in the areas they were 'surveying'.

It matters not whether they went to the same places or different ones, except to make the initial survey. But once that initial survey is done, they need at most once-a-week flyovers to determine progress-- allowing the choppers to fly relief missions.

Fly a UN survey team over the area on Monday and take pictures. Then, when Dan Rather, MTVC, the deputy mayor and Paris Hilton's poodle and everyone else come to see for themselves, have them look at the pictures and read the report.

The deputy mayor of Phoenix, Dan Rather, and MTV are experts at this sort of assessment, then.

Who work for which aid organisation?

None. But helicopters are being diverted for their use. Hence, they are useless prima donnas that are interfering and ndoing no good. The UN guys, whiny and spoiled they may be, are the only ones which may, to an extent, be doing marginally useful things out there.

Primarily the rant was directed against the needless waste of resources used ferrying around useless people. The guy obviously has a low opinion of the UN but from the sound of it they are not above reproach. Crying about clean porcelain even if it means using the ship's precious and rationed fresh water is pretty selfish.

They arent aid workers and they can buy their own flights for all I care. I'm talking about charity workers (peopel not working for a profit) who are making use of facilities offered by the US to help the relief effort.

They should be glad they are getting a free lift, actually. Not only is an aircraft carrier not a hospital ship, it is also not a Holiday Inn nor is it a public bus service. These people are getting over big time yet they still whine and kvetch. They get free accomodations, free food, use of water, power and facilities that are in short supply on a ship that they are not even supposed to be on. They have very little to complain about.

This shit bag in the editorial falls down for blaming everyone else for thwa the US government has seen fit to offer and being a spiteful little bastard towards them for accepting it.

He's certainly not complaining about the poor people of Indonesia-- he is frustrated that he cannot help them more. Why? Because instead of tasking out to deliver aid, they have to hand-hold and butt-wipe a bunch of crybaby do-gooders.

The USS Abraham Lincoln is not there to "help" media- hungry whores. It is there to help the poor people of Indonesia. You remember them, you know, the tsunami, you may have heard of it on the news. This relief effort is about them, not people who want to have their pictures taken playing "concerned citizen".

I'll also add, which satelite recon images can tell if a village is in urgent need of certain medical supplies?

Umm... the satellite images can tell which villages are hit the worst, which ones have had the most infrastructure washed away, and if there are any that have not been helped yet. They can tell which ones will eventually need roads, schools, and sanitation facilities built.

It can't tell which village needs medical supplies the most, but satellite images are something for engineering surveyors to look at while the relief work is done by helicopter. Road builders and plumbers don't need to be taking up space on choppers yet. Their time comes later, after the medical and food needs are seen to.

[Chmee]

Yes, it's an opinion piece, and nothing but, with a very clear set of biases driving the opinion. So when he relates 'factual' events in the course of his editorial, I'm sorry, I take 'em with a big grain of salt.

Is it just beyond comprehension that maybe, just maybe, the deputy mayor of Phoenix, MTV camermen, whining UN workers who eat and complain about it (he didn't "feel special") actually are being selfish assholes?

A reporter... a politician.... a crew for a show that caters to a bunch of rock stars... these are not people accustomed to selflessness and giving without thought of themselves.

It's entirely comprehensible ... this just doesn't strike me as a very credible source. Kind of like Baghdad Bob telling me that the infidel invaders are being shoved into the sea ... I'd like a slightly more objective source for that sort of claim.

[Mr Bean]

It's entirely comprehensible ... this just doesn't strike me as a very credible source. Kind of like Baghdad Bob telling me that the infidel invaders are being shoved into the sea ... I'd like a slightly more objective source for that sort of claim.

So you comparing the offical state propaganda expert to the man on the ground in the fucking bush?(Or in this case the Sea and on the Deck)

Right... Since this is the Lincoln I can't personaly comment, nor know anyone off hand I can pick a phone call and get a sworn deposition so you'll excuse me if I belive my fellow service memebers who have fucking worked with Relief Civies in the past and who have(To quote Coyote) Built a fucking road, in the motherfucking jungle(Or words to that effect)

[Elfdart]

It's entirely comprehensible ... this just doesn't strike me as a very credible source. Kind of like Baghdad Bob telling me that the infidel invaders are being shoved into the sea ... I'd like a slightly more objective source for that sort of claim.

So you comparing the offical state propaganda expert to the man on the ground in the fucking bush?(Or in this case the Sea and on the Deck)

What evidence do you have that Mr. Ranty is who he says he is? Oh, that's right -Zero! At least Baghdad Bob showed his mug on TV. Until someone can prove that this anonymous letter is real, I'm going to assume that the closest he ever came to the Indian Ocean was when he ordered a large Java with whipped cream at Starbucks.

Right... Since this is the Lincoln I can't personaly comment, nor know anyone off hand I can pick a phone call and get a sworn deposition so you'll excuse me if I belive my fellow service memebers who have fucking worked with Relief Civies in the past and who have(To quote Coyote) Built a fucking road, in the motherfucking jungle(Or words to that effect)

No proof other than anecdotes? Concession accepted.

[Coyote]

In other words, you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and go "YAYAYAYAYAICAN'T HEAR YOUYAYAYAYAYA!"

.... but the voices in your head will never stop.

[Elfdart]

If this guy was actually concerned, why didn't he put his name on the letter and send it to someone who could actually do something about it? Like Hugh Thompson did 35 years ago. Do you think the Bush junta would ignore it after all the shit they took over their response to the tsunami? If there was any merit to this big fish story, Bush's henchmen would be all over it, saying "See, I told you so!". Instead, it's circulated among the "black helicopters are coming" crowd. The challenge stands: PPOR!

[Coyote]

This is th ehome site for the page:

http://www.sftt.org/about.html

So far I see nothing to question the integrity of the site, I am in fact familiar with Colonel Hackworth and he is a frequent critic of the way the Military handles things. So far as I poke around I am not finding anything that requires a person to verify their military service...

They are however linked to Military.com which is a respected civilian-run military website, and one that many of my colleagues here are members of.

They really don't feel like your typical "Black Helicopter" and "Tinfoil Hat" types. Just because you don't like what you're reading, Elfdart, doesn't automatically disqualify it.

Why use a false name or not report this to his higher-ups? I am sure his higher-ups (the ship's Captain) are well aware of it, as is the C-in-C Pacific Fleet. That means it it political, and complaining about something that some Admiral probably sees as a political enhancement is a Bad Move.

[Joe]

Or maybe he did report it to his higher-ups and felt the need to spread it to the general public as well (and I don't see why he shouldn't).

[HemlockGrey]

Out of curiosity, are there any corraborating reports (is that the right word?)?

[Stark]

Expecting to be based on US Navy ships and taxied everywhere is a bit of a stretch, and being ungrateful about it suggests there are alot more 'aid workers' looking for a free holiday than actually helping people. Needless UN bashing aside, who decided to have all these civilians on the Abe Lincoln anyway? Shouldn't they be based in aid camps or something?

[Keevan_Colton]

Expecting to be based on US Navy ships and taxied everywhere is a bit of a stretch, and being ungrateful about it suggests there are alot more 'aid workers' looking for a free holiday than actually helping people. Needless UN bashing aside, who decided to have all these civilians on the Abe Lincoln anyway? Shouldn't they be based in aid camps or something?

There's no actual evidence for them being ungrateful, there is evidence for this guy being an asshole about their very existence. Also, there's no word in this about numbers, he makes it sound like a lot, but never says how many. The stuff ranting at the aid workers is full of vitriol and very light on substance.

[Elfdart]

This is th ehome site for the page:

http://www.sftt.org/about.html

So far I see nothing to question the integrity of the site, I am in fact familiar with Colonel Hackworth and he is a frequent critic of the way the Military handles things. So far as I poke around I am not finding anything that requires a person to verify their military service...

They are however linked to Military.com which is a respected civilian-run military website, and one that many of my colleagues here are members of.

They really don't feel like your typical "Black Helicopter" and "Tinfoil Hat" types. Just because you don't like what you're reading, Elfdart, doesn't automatically disqualify it.

Why use a false name or not report this to his higher-ups? I am sure his higher-ups (the ship's Captain) are well aware of it, as is the C-in-C Pacific Fleet. That means it it political, and complaining about something that some Admiral probably sees as a political enhancement is a Bad Move.

First of all, I like Hackworth. But anyone can be snookered by someone determined to push a fraud. Jayson Blair is nothing new, and at least he put his name on his stories -actually he plagiarized other reporters' stories. There's nothing to prevent "Ranty" from slipping a message to members of Congress or the media, and nothing an Admiral could do about it, since neither Congress nor the media will give up the identities of whistleblowers. Instead we get anonymous maunderings on a website that doesn't verify who writes to it. For all we know it could have been written by Harry Knowles in his basement.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Strap-hangers, America-haters, the dreaded U.N. and trifling do-gooders .....

With fair and objective reporting like that, this lad will go far at Fox News.

Its not a fucking biased perspective, dolt. This man is a military officers in the mess seeing this shit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, I read the whole thing ... I wish I could give any of it some credibility, because he certainly raises some serious issues that would be worth talking about ... but he's obviously filtering the facts through such a biased lens that I can't really trust *any* of the content as being objectively true. He seems to know how to use the ship's resources more efficiently than the C.O., he seems to know more about how to handle the delicate issue of flying combat aircraft in foreign airspace better than the DoD and Commander in Chief, and he's sure he knows how to handle the most massive global relief operation on the planet better than people who do it for a living ......

In short, he knows it all, and everybody else is an idiot, and I generally trust any recitation of an occurence from that kind of source with about the same level of trust as a six year old looking at a broken window and a baseball who says 'I didn't do it.'

No, fuckmook. He simply knows the basic realities and necessities of a military machine and is pissed off because the brass and those in-charge are shirking those for ungrateful assholes. He never once implies the higher-ups did not know what they were doing. You're a fucking moron. There needs to be some sort of special rule preventing you from discussing anything associated with the military because its bound to be an embarressment even for the observer.

[Chmee]

I'll take a page from Franklin at this point ....

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Elfie, there's a concept called credulence. The default assumption is not "everything is a fucking fraud." That is the more complex model, and thus the less prefered one.

But here logic runs counter to liberal preference, so you'll naturally run roughshod over logic.

[Joe]

I don't know what's so unbelievable about what's presented here, anyway. There are UN aid workers on the USS Lincoln; it is not wildly out of question that one or more of the officers on that boat may not like them there.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't know what's so unbelievable about what's presented here, anyway. There are UN aid workers on the USS Lincoln; it is not wildly out of question that one or more of the officers on that boat may not like them there.

More significantly, it's known that there have been similar "fact-finding" missions on other ships. Senators, for example, visiting the destroyed provinces on military choppers and thus tying up potentially valuable resources that might've been used to save lives. IIRC, in fact, Elfdart himself brought up an article to that effect.

Edit: And, there it is.

[HemlockGrey]

Regardless of the article's authenticity, the perceptions of a single member of the US navy does not conclusively prove anything about the conduct of UN aid officials.

[MKSheppard]

Hmmm

Linka

Please excuse you have this wrong. We are not being offered deal reduced Tariff if we buy A380. We are told if we do not buy A380 aircraft then EU will not follow instruction from WTO to reduce unfair tariff. Make this clear Thai Inter does not want A380 and our airports cannot handle this. If we buy A380 we must change runways on our airports at great cost to us. Is blackmail. EU use disaster of tsunami to force us to buy aircraft we do not want.

You know something else? We have UN people here. They make lots of speeches walk around much but do nothing to help repair tsunami damage. Nothing. We ask them when they will do something they say why ask us you side with the enemy when you send troops to Iraq.

So UN openly call America the enemy. Interesting na?