400,000 students in FL could be held back if rules change

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400,000 students in FL could be held back if rules change

Post by RogueIce »

Board wants to end social promotion - St. Pete Times
Article wrote:Copyright Times Publishing Co. Jan 19, 2005
The board that oversees education in Florida dropped a policy bomb Tuesday, saying it wants to end social promotion in all grades.

If such a policy were in place last year, more than 400,000 students across the state would have been at risk of being held back.

The change would need the blessing of the Legislature, which is what the state Board of Education voted to seek when the legislative session begins in March.

The board's plan is "extraordinary," chairman Phil Handy told other members meeting at Hillsborough Community College. "I don't want anyone to misunderstand the significance."

Currently, only third-graders can be retained if they score too low on the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test or fail to meet alternative criteria. But Education Commissioner John Winn, citing rising student achievement, said the time has come to raise the bar and expand the policy.

If lawmakers approve, Florida would have one of the most aggressive retention policies in the United States. And education officials also are suggesting repealing some of the exemptions that allow low-scoring third-graders to be promoted.

Said Winn: "There's always a little pain before you bump the standards up."

Social promotion is the decades-old practice of passing students on to the next grade whether they are performing at grade level or not.

As an education issue, it is as hot button as it gets. Philadelphia's school superintendent once called it "a cancer that eats at the heart of public education."

Supporters liken it to tough love, saying it's better to hold students back until they learn crucial skills. Critics say it can stigmatize students so badly they quit school to avoid teasing from their peers.

The research isn't conclusive one way or the other.

A recent study by the Manhattan Institute, a South Florida think tank, found that Florida third-graders who were held back - and given intense instruction - outperformed their peers who were promoted. But studies outside Florida have found that retaining students increases the likelihood of their dropping out.

Retention policies are popular with politicians, but that support can be counterproductive, said Mark Pudlow, a spokesman for the Florida Education Association.

"We're talking about the progress of children," not widgets, he said.

The state's current policy, which went into effect two years ago, is tied to a student's reading score on the FCAT. Last year, nearly 20,000 third-graders who scored at the lowest level on the FCAT, Level 1, were retained - several thousand of them for a second time.

Statewide, 431,000 students in grades 3-10 scored at the same level. That's 28 percent of the student population in those grades.

"Nobody wants a 15-year-old in a third-grade classroom," Mary Laura Openshaw, director of Just Read, Florida, told board members Tuesday. But promoting students who haven't mastered basic reading skills is almost "educational malpractice."

Lawmakers had differing reactions.

"I think it'll have plenty of support," said Rep. Frank Farkas, R- St. Petersburg, a member of the House education committee. "I personally don't see this being a big, controversial issue for us."

Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs, was more cautious.

"It's not something you can just throw out there. It's a major change in policy," said Constantine, immediate past chair of the Senate education committee.

Constantine said he generally supports the notion of retention, but didn't want to comment on the proposal until he saw the details.

Winn said if lawmakers approve the policy, the board will decide when to phase it in, what grades to expand it to and what criteria to use.

A sketch of the proposal that circulated at Tuesday's board meeting suggested the same criteria used in third grade would be used in fourth and fifth grades and tweaked for higher grades.

Winn said letter grades might factor into the retention policy for middle and high school students. He said the Education Department was eyeing sixth grade as a foothold for the policy in middle school. He said he wanted to see the policy eventually rolled out to first- and second-graders, too, though alternative criteria would have to be developed since those grades don't take the FCAT.

He also said it might take a decade to expand the policy throughout the system.

"It's not going to happen tomorrow," he said.

Changes in policy, though, could happen as early as next month.

The board said it wants to take a closer look at exemptions for third-graders, which include scores on alternative tests and portfolios that showcase a body of academic work.

The number of exemptions increased last year from 10,845 to 13,563.

Many of them were based on portfolios, which might be "the hole through which you drive the Mack truck through," Openshaw said.

Bottom line: "We still promote too many Level 1 kids," she told the board.

Times staff writer Matthew Waite and Times researcher Caryn Baird contributed to this report. Ron Matus can be reached at (727) 893- 8873.

SOCIAL PROMOTION IN FLORIDA SCHOOLS

Under current rules, third-graders who score in Level 1 on the FCAT face repeating the grade. If that same standard is applied across all grades tested by the FCAT, nearly three out of 10 students in Florida would have faced retention last year.

Percent

[Table]
Students, reading Potential
Grade 2003-04 at Level 1 retainees
3 206,435 22 45,416
4 176,148 16 28,184
5 196,343 24 47,122
6 199,083 26 51,762
7 201,346 27 54,363
8 197,778 30 59,333
9 214,994 39 83,848
10 166,955 37 61,773
Total 1,559,082 431,801
(28%)


Source: Florida Department of Education
"Social promotion is the decades-old practice of passing students on to the next grade whether they are performing at grade level or not."
Maybe I'm missing something here, but this sounds pretty stupid to me... :?

Anyway, discuss. I'm kinda shocked that so many students all the way up to their sophomore years can't pass Level 1 Reading (since I did this little STARS or whatever reading doohickey long ago, it didn't take much to get 13+ as your score, but it's probably different now), but maybe I shouldn't be.

And sorry for the shitty table at the end. That's the way it is on the site. If I still had the original article on me I could try and fix it up some.
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Post by RogueIce »

Ok, near as I can tell it goes like this:

Code: Select all

Grade  Total # Students  Percent failed  # Students Failed
3             206,435                  22                45,416 
4             176,148                  16                28,184 
5             196,343                  24                47,122 
6             199,083                  26                51,762 
7             201,346                  27                54,363 
8             197,778                  30                59,333 
9             214,994                  39                83,848 
10           166,955                  37                61,773 
Total     1,559,082                  28               431,801
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Good. These kids lives aren't going to fucking end, and maybe the embaressment will seek to give them and their palm-fucking parents a fucking clue.
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Post by Ryoga »

Somehow I'm not surprised. I'm pretty sure Florida's education standards are damn well near the bottom, and when I came up to college here in Mass. I learned just how much I didn't know. :oops:
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Post by fighterace »

Why is this even an issue? What good are you doing to these kids by sending them off into the cruel, unfeeling world without basic skills? It doesn't look good on either the student, or the school.

If I'm an employer and I see on a resume that a person graduated from a certain school, and then later learn that that person doesn't know how to read, or do simple math, I'm not going hire anyone from that school again.

If they don't have some mental handicap, then there is no reason why they shouldn't know the material they need in order to EARN their diploma.

I don't know about any one else, but I worked hard for my diploma in high school, and I'm continuing to work hard now in college. I don't want my diploma tarnished by people who can't measure up to certain standards.

Hold 'em back as long as needed. They want something they can earn it like the rest of us.
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Post by Edi »

Good for them if they manage to push it through. Social promotion is the biggest cancer in public education anywhere, and it's not going to screw over anyone for life. If it increases chances of dropping out, I'd say that only applies to those who would be fuckwit losers anyway.

I had three people in my class in the ninth grade who were resitting it for failing to pass the year before, and they all turned out perfectly okay.

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Post by Tinkerbell »

If this really does go through, more than one thing needs to change. I know in NJ, once you're 16 you can drop out. I forsee too many 16yr-old 8th graders getting frustrated and saying 'fuck this.'

I do support this. Social promotion seems, to me at least, to play perfectly into the "we can't damage a child's self-esteem" bullshit.
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Post by White Haven »

Fine. They hit 16, they drop out in middle school, and it stops being anyone's problem but their own. McDonald's always needs more employees, and you barely need to be able to count to work there. Sure, it's harsh, but schools don't have some writ-in-stone responsibility to PASS students. If someone can't meet basic education standards, they're up shit creek, and that's their own damn fault. Given how phenomenally low those standards are, my sympathy is vanishingly small.
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Post by dragon »

Its a good idea here in Europe if you can't pass you don't go on.
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Post by Chmee »

What does Florida's governor think about this ...

Or is he too busy taking photo ops in Indonesia?
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Post by RogueIce »

xBlackFlash wrote:If this really does go through, more than one thing needs to change. I know in NJ, once you're 16 you can drop out. I forsee too many 16yr-old 8th graders getting frustrated and saying 'fuck this.'
If they're 16 and can't pass 8th grade, I don't think they were going too far in life anyway (barring any sort of legitimate handicap).
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

This is a badly needed change, and I applaud it.

Remember, people, our school system graduates functional illiterates. We have the worst math scores in the industrialized world but our students are those who feel the most "positive" about their math scores. Korea's students feel the least "positive" about their's (why the fuck is that even a question in these surveys?)--and they also do the best at math.

I have also been promised a copy of a math book from the local public school district here by an English teacher, of all people (who is quitting after this year because he is being forced to pass along students who have failed his class into the next English class, with Bs going onto their grade record). He claims that the book does not have any actual math problems in it, despite being a math book. If I get the book I intend to start a thread on it here including scans of pages.

We quite possibly have the worst school system in the world, and I would sooner homeschool any children I had than send them through it, and if that wasn't an option, move to some place like Kenya that has real standards for their students (I'm not kidding, there--most Kenyans I have met going to community colleges insist it is easier than their high schools were).

Even a measure like this is frankly just a band-aid against the reality of the disgusting and puerile pretensions of the worst school system in the whole world, who's failures cross such a magnitude and range of idiocy as to defy pinning on any one group and instead are the guilt and responsibility of the whole of society.
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Post by Pick »

I think that this is a good thing. Passing kids when they don't have even the vaguest semblance of the qualifications is not teaching kids the right lessons about life. And it's not like they're asking a lot :|
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Post by Vohu Manah »

Sorry that I can do nothing but second almost all of the other remarks in this thread by why any state allows social promotion is beyond me. This will ultimately be a good move for Florida's education system.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

A diploma given to kids that haven't accumulated any skills is a worthless piece of paper.

This will create an incentive for harder work and improve overall standards, and I agree with the decision.
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Post by Chmee »

How would this affect the costs in their system? Same number of kids coming in, fewer kids going out .....
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Post by Durandal »

The Article wrote:Critics say it can stigmatize students so badly they quit school to avoid teasing from their peers.
Tough shit. If the kid is too stupid to pass the third grade, then he should be held back, period. And if he quits school when he's legally allowed to (16 or 18 in most states) because he keeps being held back, good. He was obviously weak and underachieving, so he shouldn't be wasting the time of his fellow students or his teachers in the classroom.
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Post by mauldooku »

Those numbers quoted are utterly astonishing. 1/5 of all Floridian grade schoolers fail? Utterly ridiculous. While I do see legitimate concerns raised against this move (specifically that it'll be a blemish on the retained kids' records), the benefits of actually educating everyone certainly outweigh everything else.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Badme wrote:Those numbers quoted are utterly astonishing. 1/5 of all Floridian grade schoolers fail? Utterly ridiculous. While I do see legitimate concerns raised against this move (specifically that it'll be a blemish on the retained kids' records), the benefits of actually educating everyone certainly outweigh everything else.
It makes perfect sense, to be blunt, so sorry, they're not ridiculous, they're the grim facts. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation recently released a study which showed that 30% of all American students drop out, and of the 70% which complete their diplomas, only 1/3rd of them are capable of entering college without remedial work. What that means is that only 22-23% of American school children are capable of getting into a university without being required to take remedial classes. That has resulted in the average time it takes to get a bachelor's degree at a modern American university having reached six years (AVERAGE), with a corresponding massive strain on the colleges, which are forced to add countless teachers and classes for teaching remedial work which should have been learned in the public schools but wasn't.
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Post by Andrew J. »

Strange...while these figures disgust and horrify me, I feel elated from the boost of self-confidence.
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Post by Mitth`raw`nuruodo »

*sigh* My wonderful school system...
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Post by Mayabird »

Mitth`raw`nuruodo wrote:*sigh* My wonderful school system...
If it makes you feel better, it's still better than Georgia's.
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

I applaud this decision. Mercy-passes for people who don't even get a 50% average are all to commong. If you're in high-school and you can't beat elementary-level stuff, screw you. I know that I can get straight-As in academic things and bullshit my way through Art and Phys. Ed. I read at a level 4 grades beyond my own. If you're too lazy or stupid to even pull a D, you should have to stay behind.
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Post by Xon »

Chmee wrote:How would this affect the costs in their system? Same number of kids coming in, fewer kids going out .....
I would be more focused on the countless millions/billions spend training these high school dropouts by private business and the student/family to basicly make up for a 6-7 year null period were the rejects just learned bad habits.
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