Interesting Republic Commando: Hard Contact Quotes

[McC]

Inspired by this thread, I thought some of these might be interesting.

On the other hand, there are Temura Morrison Clones in Episode III, but then, we have no idea how old they're supposed to be (i.e. the actor they got to play a younger version of him- we don't know how old he's supposed to be either).

It's more likely than assuming that Kaminoan Clone Troopers only have a lifespan of 40 years or so.

I personally don't think that the growth accelleration is so much a part of the genetic tampering, rather it has to do with some sort of treatment the clones undergo in their "childhood." Once they leave for service in the military, they no longer recieve the treatment, and thus, age normally.

This is answered pretty explicitly:

"What will they do with you in thirty years, when you're too old to fight?"
"I'll be dead long before then."
"That's rather fatalistic."
"I mean that we'll always age faster than you. We've been told decline for clones is mercifully swift. Slow soldiers get killed. I can't think of a better time to die than when I'm no longer the best."

and

What do I think about it? I don't know, really. Nobody's ever asked me for my opinion before.
-Clone Trooper RC-5093, retired, at CF VetCenter, Coruscant. Chronological age: twenty-three. Biological age: sixty.

Emphasis mine.

So, there you have it. Their accelerated aging is not the result of a treatment they undergo during training, but rather genetically built in. Consequently, they will always age faster than normal humans. They are aware of this and accept it as a good thing.

Also, assuming the age acceleration is 1:1, then 60/23 = 2.61. If we assume the clones at Geonosis to only be the full 10-year clones that Obi-Wan hears about on Kamino, then they're the equivalent to 26 year olds. Going back up to Vympel's comment from the top, if we assume all the clones are +3 years by the time of Episode III, then they're effectively 34. It's more likely, of course, that there are clones rangnig between 10 and 13 years at this point, so a range of 26-34 instead.

And to cap it off with something I found both intriguing (in terms of clone personality) and highly amusing:

Etain wondered how he had developed his relentless good humor; she couldn't imagine him shooting anyone. One thing she had discovered in the last few days was that professional soldiers were neither habitually angry nor violent.

They didn't even talk tough. They were a mass of contradictions. They washed their clothing and they shaved and cooked and generally conducted themselves like well-behaved, well-educated Padawans. Then they went out and blew up installations and killed total strangers and cracked bad jokes.

[The Original Nex]

Well, it seems I stand corrected then. I suppose it is more logical to have troops who live shorter than standards so the government doesn't have to care for them as long after they retire from duty.

The Imperial Clone Stormtroopers however, walk out of their cloning vats fully grown and with flash imprint memories of a prior life in which they're given memories of a family, childhood etc. They recognize their fellow troops as clones, but never realize that they themselves are clones. They are also "programmed" to be too polite to discuss cloning with their fellow trooper. So, even though they don't have growth accelleration, they have at least 18 years of childhood and young adulthood taken out of the picture, not as efficient (retirement wise) as aging twice as fast as Kamino clones did, but it provides for instant troops without having to wait 10 years for them to be battle-ready.

That reason, is probably why the Empire phased out Kainoan clones in the first place:

...and remember, if you need more troops, it will take more time to grow them.

The Empire couldn't afford to wait 10 more years for fresh batches to be grown (granted Kamino had several batches in several stages of growth but their deployment period would be staggard be a year or two). The Empire however neededmillions of troops, and they needed them now. So they switched over to the GeNode method of cloning, which provided battle-ready troops ready to be trained much as soon as they stepped out of the vat. This feature was deemed more acceptable despite the fact that the govt had to care for them longer after they were no longer capable of combat.

Edit: fixed "quotes"

[Master of Ossus]

The Imperial Clone Stormtroopers however, walk out of their cloning vats fully grown and with flash imprint memories of a prior life in which they're given memories of a family, childhood etc. They recognize their fellow troops as clones, but never realize that they themselves are clones. They are also "programmed" to be too polite to discuss cloning with their fellow trooper. So, even though they don't have growth accelleration, they have at least 18 years of childhood and young adulthood taken out of the picture, not as efficient (retirement wise) as aging twice as fast as Kamino clones did, but it provides for instant troops without having to wait 10 years for them to be battle-ready.

Where's that info. coming from? Sounds pretty much straight outta Blade Runner/DADoES.

[The Original Nex]

Where's that info. coming from? Sounds pretty much straight outta Blade Runner/DADoES.

"Pax Empirica: The Wookiee Annihilation" The short story that accompanies Star Wars Battlegrounds.

And before anyone dismisses it as a game source, remember, that is contradicted by nothing in the continuity thusfar, and is every bit as admissible as a novel or comic.

This information helps to put the question "who are Stormtroopers?" to rest.

[McC]

If you buy into it. Personally, I'm excessively skeptical of it from even a believability standpoint. "I look just like these people, but I don't know it." Whaaaat were they smoking when they wrote that? I don't even know if that's possible.

You're right that it's "every bit as admissable," but until something else shows up, I'm going to lean toward the idea that the Kaminoan method is the one that sticks around, if anything sticks around (i.e. assuming they continued to use clones at all).

[The Original Nex]

If you buy into it. Personally, I'm excessively skeptical of it from even a believability standpoint. "I look just like these people, but I don't know it." Whaaaat were they smoking when they wrote that? I don't even know if that's possible.

Heavy conditioning such as brainwashing and flash-imprinting memories unique to every clone could make it so that they don't notice that they all look the same. According to the same source, there are at least four different batches of clones from which the Empire could pick and choose from when making up squads to lessen the ammount of clones from the same batch who get to see eachother without their combat gear.

[McC]

Heavy conditioning such as brainwashing and flash-imprinting memories unique to every clone could make it so that they don't notice that they all look the same. According to the same source, there are at least four different batches of clones from which the Empire could pick and choose from when making up squads to lessen the ammount of clones from the same batch who get to see eachother without their combat gear.

If every single little thing goes right, maybe.

But inconsistencies like that will start to add up. Granted, the Empire could just adopt a policy of "Oh, TK-xxx is starting to get curious about his past. We'll just off him." And four batches is way too few to keep the public from noticing. The general distate for cloning that the Galaxy adopts is a good indicator (and this was said in the other thread too) that cloning becomes distasteful. That by no means suggests that the Empire would stop simply because of that, but Stormtroopers die. Stormtroopers will get their helmets taken off and somebody in the Galaxy will make a stink. It won't stay secret forever and the fact that nobody seemes to even know about it suggests that either everyone is exceptionally dumb, the Empire's ability to control information so utterly is extremely amazing, or clones aren't as prevalent in the stormtrooper corps as Pax Empirica would have one believe.

[The Original Nex]

You're right that it's "every bit as admissable," but until something else shows up, I'm going to lean toward the idea that the Kaminoan method is the one that sticks around, if anything sticks around (i.e. assuming they continued to use clones at all).

You're entitiled to that if you wish, but as to assuming that the Empire used clones at all should have been settled long ago. Many sources (from the SW Trading Card Game to GL himself) have said that the Stormtroopers are clones.

And BTW, If you don't like Battlegrounds explanation you can always take Pablo Hidalgo's: there are multiple clone stocks, resulting in the multiple body shapes, heights, and voices of clones, as well as voluntary joiners and conscripts found suitable.

He also says that as the Empire grew, those who were chosen for clone stock material were increasingly chosen for political connections and not necessarily combat prowess (i.e Some Moff's son would get the ticket instead of a soldier), therefore, some troopers were lousy shots.

[McC]

You're entitiled to that if you wish, but as to assuming that the Empire used clones at all should have been settled long ago. Many sources (from the SW Trading Card Game to GL himself) have said that the Stormtroopers are clones.

Um...which TCG card depicts this, out of curiosity? As I understand it, the TCG cards don't have a "lore" box like the old CCG cards had, so I don't know where one would ever get the chance to find this from the TCG. Wizard's card catalog (left-hand menu, under Card Lists) is here if you can point out the card(s) in question.

And BTW, If you don't like Battlegrounds explanation you can always take Pablo Hidalgo's: there are multiple clone stocks, resulting in the multiple body shapes, heights, and voices of clones, as well as voluntary joiners and conscripts found suitable.

It makes more sense. At least to this point. His addendum about the "increasingly chosen for political connections" bullshit to explain their so-called lousy shooting is just Pablo being Pablo.

I just don't think brainwashing is going to do the trick. You can look at another person and be brainwashed to think that they don't look like you, perhaps, but I don't think this will hold if you look at one another in a mirror, standing side-by-side.

[Mr Bean]

May I point out that even givin perfect cloning it should be relativly simple to alter a few genes here and there to increase randomisation of appernce, considering the amount of gene manipulation aviable throwing in a few "Frekels" "Hair Color" "Cheekbone" style switches in the genes should be simple enough to do where you have say fifteen extra genetic traits that don't affect preformance but do affect apperance, thus letting you cycle the appernces abit more

[McC]

True, although that's more or less the same as having "multiple lines" of clones. It's like sexual reproduction without the sex: genetic combinations and variances so that the resulting gene sequence is different but similar to the parent.

[spideycw]

I find it interesting that in a galaxy where humans tend to live a bit longer around the age of 60 is thought of as "retirement age" for battlefield soldiers. Is this number just for commandos or is it a number for all infantry forces?

[The Original Nex]

I find it interesting that in a galaxy where humans tend to live a bit longer around the age of 60 is thought of as "retirement age" for battlefield soldiers. Is this number just for commandos or is it a number for all infantry forces?

60 would be the equvilant of about 40 by todays standards (i.e middle age) I'd say the majority of modern NCO's would retire around 40 (though some sergeants stay on longer). It is the officers who often stay on well past their battlefield "retirement" and take on a desk job or command position.

[PainRack]

True, although that's more or less the same as having "multiple lines" of clones. It's like sexual reproduction without the sex: genetic combinations and variances so that the resulting gene sequence is different but similar to the parent.

True, somewhat like btech genetic program. Also, is there any conclusive proof that a clone will grow up looking exactly like the parent? A significant factor of our appearence arises from our growing up period. Our muscular build, scars, even height depends a lot on our life experience.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If you buy into it. Personally, I'm excessively skeptical of it from even a believability standpoint. "I look just like these people, but I don't know it." Whaaaat were they smoking when they wrote that? I don't even know if that's possible.

You're right that it's "every bit as admissable," but until something else shows up, I'm going to lean toward the idea that the Kaminoan method is the one that sticks around, if anything sticks around (i.e. assuming they continued to use clones at all).

No, you can't do that. Its canon and stands.

Anyway, the GeNodes are cases of extremely thorough subconscious programming. They must recognize clones of their line, realize that it'd be impolite to discuss cloning with them, and then immediately fail to register why it is impolite in the first place.

Its straight out of The Manchurian Candidate or Nineteen Eighty-Four. It makes for good allusion. And no, its not very randomized. 40% of Stormtroopers belong to the same line as Corporal Milo Strander.

This is not without support, either. Imperial Royal Guardsmen Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax look almost identical (Kir Kanos' facial scar and poorer shaving habits notwithstanding) yet neither appears to have any realization that they are clones of any kind, much less of the same line.

[The Original Nex]

While I readily accept "Pax Emperica's" explanation of Stormtroopers I do wonder, however, how this was kept from the Alliance....In the Battle of Endor,many killed or wounded Stormtrooper had their helmets taken off, surely the Rebels would have noticed something was amiss...right?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well it was persistent rumor and innuendo anyway. It may have been that NRI did know but as the number of Stormies twindled precipituously twindled anyway they decided to keep their suspicions quiet.

After all look at the morale consequences that clones have in TTT.

[The Original Nex]

Well it was persistent rumor and innuendo anyway. It may have been that NRI did know but as the number of Stormies twindled precipituously twindled anyway they decided to keep their suspicions quiet.

After all look at the morale consequences that clones have in TTT.

I suppose that's the best explanation. The fac that Luke didn't know could be explained by the fact that he had his fair share of enemies in the NR govt, who didn't want him knowing too much. But Han and Leia would have (presumably) seen the unmasked troopers at Endor, why didn't they know?

[Coalition]

Question and a comment:

1) Is the book any good?

2) The Imperial military could be made up of 40% clones, but by using multiple copies, and doing eye and hair color, skin color, and other similar variations, the number of actual identical clones could be kept down easily.

Also, another reason to avoid using lots of clones would be a virus. Get a virus tailored to one of the clone sequences, and it would go through that sequence like crazy. Or make it so it never triggers in one sequence, and you get a stormtrooper Mary, a clone that carries a disease, but never suffers from it.

Finally, if they get the clones ot age 10, and flash imprint a history to them (growing up in an Imperial orphanage), then send them to specialized planets for stormtrooper training, the clones would never know that they are actually clones.

(Had an idea for a SW vs HHverse, where the SW forces capture a Mesa cloning facility, and use it to start producing clone soldiers. The freed slaves accuse the commander of making shock troopers, soldiers to be expended in combat without worry. She is chewing out the commander, and he finally gets annoyed and tells one of his subordinates to show her the equipment the clones will be getting. The subordinate takes off his helmet, and the two are identical. She realizes that the stormtrooper commander is one of the clones.)

[McC]

1) Is the book any good?

Quite. Definitely recommend any SW reader get it.

2) The Imperial military could be made up of 40% clones, but by using multiple copies, and doing eye and hair color, skin color, and other similar variations, the number of actual identical clones could be kept down easily.

Also, another reason to avoid using lots of clones would be a virus. Get a virus tailored to one of the clone sequences, and it would go through that sequence like crazy. Or make it so it never triggers in one sequence, and you get a stormtrooper Mary, a clone that carries a disease, but never suffers from it.

SPOILER: That's what this book is about, actually. The commandos are out to destroy the facility and kidnap the head of a project to create a clone virus

[McC]

No, you can't do that. Its canon and stands.

If a higher canon source contradicts it, or a sufficient number of other sources contradict it, then I most certainly can do that. Based in part on what Nex has already said, and on other various quotes and such, I think there's enough to at the very least cast Pax Empirica's assertions into doubt.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, you can't do that. Its canon and stands.

If a higher canon source contradicts it, or a sufficient number of other sources contradict it, then I most certainly can do that. Based in part on what Nex has already said, and on other various quotes and such, I think there's enough to at the very least cast Pax Empirica's assertions into doubt.

No, because later sources take precedence. If anything, the public's lack of knowledge of clone troops will be the greatly exaggerated and doubted article of fact, not the existance of clone troops.

Anyway, Stormtroopers are forbidden to remove their armor in front of just anyone. The Tantor brothers were inducted as Stormtroopers but it was considered highly unorthodox and they were not permitted to lodge with their squad mates or see them without their armor.

Consider that the Galactic Empire was a pan-galactic, all-encompassing state which comprised essentially the entirity of known civilization. The Imperial Marines were never going to be deployed in situations where large numbers would be ever be captured or killed and left to the enemy. And even if they were, the Empire's enemies are denounced as enemies of the State. Any docs containing supposed holos of identical-looking Stormies would be dismissed as either a.) forgeries, or b.) simply left-over clone troops from before the Senate banned the use of cloning. It would be simple enough to claim that the clones were simply from older units and lines (Pax Emperica explicitly awknowledges more primitive, earlier models of clones still in service). It is essentially impossible for there to be any common circumstances where any group could credibly claim to prove the Stormtroopers were still largely clones and that those clone production operations were on-going. Simply placing the GeNode production centers in the Deep Core would accomplish that amply, and the Galactic Empire's Nineteen Eighty-Four-style control of all lanes of media and the New Republic Intelligence's infamous incompetence would accomplish the rest. Clones were always rumored or insinuated (ref: The Last Command, Commander Antilles compares the regimented fanaticism of the new cloned TIE aces to the Stormtroopers). And the New Republic had ample reason to keep any decisive evidence they did possess suppressed. The undeniable use of clones by GADM Thrawn created an incredible collapse of Republican military morale.

Besides, the theory that the GeNode centers were in the Deep Core amply explains why the Stormtroopers were in shortages by Thrawn's campiagn, and the threat in TTT is sustained because the threat poised by the clones was a.) mostly psychological, and b.) Thrawn's clones could be grown in a week, whereas even the GeNodes (probably being based on the Spaarti cylinder hardware on Mount Tantisss) probably took a year or two to avoid dangerous instabilities. The public banning of cloning is sustained so long as no one could prove that the Galactic Empire was currently producing clones, a difficult task.

Its hardly as implausible as you think. Simply the fact that the Stormtroopers are shock troops makes the chance that the enemy ever got to sit and compare a bunch of them unlikely.

And the level of brainwashing the GeNodes go under is hardly unprecedented in fiction, particularly considering the numerous EU allusions within the Empire's description to aforementioned fictional dystopias. Accepting this is simply a matter of accepting a fact within the STAR WARS Saga and is part of Suspension of Disbelief.

[Jason von Evil]

Question and a comment:

1) Is the book any good?

As good as the Halo novels.