BattletechVsOther Sci-fi

[Straha]

Alright I see this, clan (snow raven, my personal fav) vs any other sci-fi you want.

My basic over all assumption space battles hands down go to any other sci-fi (hell even red dwarf!) as no manueverability bare basic weapons, and no true battle ships of any kind.

Land goes on a case by case basis, The feds from st would have their buts handed to them, sw would depend on army but probably as soon as heavy weapons hit play (at-ats and orbital bombardment) would be masacred before you could say STRAVAG. Gundam really wouldn't know, wtc.

[Darik Sdair]

Its tough to fairly assess how BattleTech would do against other sci-fi universes because the BattleTech game system is so abstract... for example, in BT the longest-range direct fire weapons top out around a kilometer or so of range and have very poor accuracy; however, the game is very vague as to the nature of the environment with regard to battlefield electronics - Mobile Suit Gundam (an inspriation to more "mechanically correct" anime and therefor indirectly inspirational of BT) has a very well-developed quasi-science explanation for its short weapon ranges involving heavy particle jamming.

On the same note, at least one production line in the Inner Sphere (the lower-tech of the two metafactions) is putting out special-forces 'mechs with full visual/sensor cloaking (<i>Chameleon Light-Polarizating Shield</i> - the 'mechs can be "hidden" in hexes with no terrain features and not detected). The Clans (the higher-tech group) have at least two special forces 'mechs in production with the same equipment. Many IS 'mechs are starting to appear now with a "monkey" version of the cloak that only contains the sensor cloaking component (<i>Hellespont Lite</i> Stealth Armor).

Without more information about the precise nature of BattleTech's military equipment it is very hard to make an even assessment of their capabilities. It might be possible to baseline the kinetic energy of one of the weapons however; most BT weapons are either burst-firing or are energy weapons that may or may not fire an extended beam or a quick zap. There's one weapon that is consistent - Gauss rifles are consistently described as firing a single projectile.

A gauss rifle fired in space (so no atmospheric effects to fool with it) can fire a slug weighing approximately 120 kilograms (8 shots per ton, some of the ton being the ammo feed mechanism) across 22 seventeen-kilometer space hexes in one (15 second, I believe) turn. Those of you who are more science-inclined then me can probably get an energy figure off of that, which can then be used to rank the firepower and armor protection of the various tech items.

My personal first guess;

most sci-fi (and real life) opponents with have an aparent range advantage, but I suspect most of the range loss is due to battlefield ECM that makes all but the heaviest, most hardened targeting systems next to useless. If this is the case (and its implied in the game fluff), then others civilizations may well also have problems.

I'm pretty sure Star Trek's Federation would be hosed down pretty bad, thanks to their lack of a strong ground arm. Orbital bombardment may help, but I'm witholding judgement on space superiority until somebody figures out the energy figures on CBT weapons.

Star Wars, on the other hand, would probably hose BattleTech. As with Star Trek, Wars' 50000-odd year 'tech advantage is just far to hard to easily cast off.

[Straha]

My base judgement for cannon would actually put the RPG/Board game second to the book series. The book series is much more consistent and explain quite a bit. Next mechwarrior comp games (except mech commander) and board games/rpg.

I don't know about the cloakoing bit as the books haven't gotten there, but what I would say against most mobile suits (not gundams) mech have a superior firepower and armor advantage, but that the suits would be, well more mobile.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Aw great, now we've got to try and find a sci-fi force that won't destroy the BattleTech universe in under 5 minutes.

Any ideas?

[Straha]

Personally I would believe that trek would get crushed. Gundams defeated, but not by a wide margin. And wars would have to field HEAVY weaponry to kill the mechs. Lets face a storm trooper would not stand a chance against an elemental.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Well, Battletech can also cover the period of the Star League, when the Inner Sphere was still unified and engineers still knew how all the advanced tech actually works.

Therefore, deploy, in a defensive formation, a battlegroup built around a Texas-class battleship of 1,560,000 tons. Sure, it won't be able to keep up with much of anything with its anemic thrust, but that's what it has 40 fighters on board for. The Star League forces will still get roasted, but they will be able to put up a fight.

The total weapons loadout for a Texas class battleship is:
16 heavy naval particle projection cannon
4 killer whale missile tubes (big, fast, 50 ton missiles good against fighters)
2 class 40 naval autocannon (massing 4,500 tons each and consuming 1.2 tons of ammunition per salvo each)
48 medium naval lasers
6 AR-12 missile tubes (capable of firing three different sizes of missile from 30 to 50 tons mass)

Back that up with lots of planet- or station-based fighters and a six-ship squadron of 612,00 ton Essex class destroyers, each with 6 more fighters, 12 class 20 autocannon, 3 missile tubes for 30-ton missiles, 8 medium naval particle projection cannon and 8 light naval lasers, the whole destroyer design optimized for defense of planetary or orbital installations.

The ships lack shields, but they do sport a few thousand tons of armor each, designed to withstand multiple volleys from their own weapons. They will likely lose, hands down if the enemy is a force like the Galactic Empire, but an opponent like the UFP could acquire a serious bloody nose, especially if starships are foolish enough to get in range of the naval autocannon.

[HRogge]

I hate to destroy the dreams of all battletech fans ( I'm a battletech fan too ) but the Battlespace rulebook mentions a small fighter based missile with a nuke... it says that this nuke has enough power to destroy any Combat-Spacehip with a single hit.

If this is true a single beam/missile of a good startrek/starwars/b5 spaceship would kill a Texas...

[Patrick Ogaard]

I hate to destroy the dreams of all battletech fans ( I'm a battletech fan too ) but the Battlespace rulebook mentions a small fighter based missile with a nuke... it says that this nuke has enough power to destroy any Combat-Spacehip with a single hit.

If this is true a single beam/missile of a good startrek/starwars/b5 spaceship would kill a Texas...

No argument there, unfortunately. There is no question but that the Star League forces would lose. The question is merely how big and how quickly they would lose. Without battleships like the Texas class, though, they will lose before they even try to engage the enemy.

[HRogge]

No argument there, unfortunately. There is no question but that the Star League forces would lose. The question is merely how big and how quickly they would lose. Without battleships like the Texas class, though, they will lose before they even try to engage the enemy.

They would lose to ST/SW/B5 without even knowing what hit them.

Startrek would just use a single photon torpedo for each battleship... the smaller landing-ships are not string enough to even be a threat to any kind of military ST ship.

Star Wars would laugh and tell them to go home ( ups, they are home
), then they would show them what a real spacefighter is. The acceleration of ST spacefighters is much higher than anything a battletech targeting computer have ever seen.

B5 would look at them, then either punch them with beam weapons or just kill them with long range missiles. Owning some ships with inertia compensators and long range FTL sensor systems are an advantage which battle tech cannot compensate.

Result: Battletech is no match compared to the Big3... maybe they have a chance against ST on the ground, but that's all. And if someone controls the orbit, he controls the planet.

[Straha]

Actually I disagree with the B5 analysis. Although the only real thing we see of B5 ground troops comes from GROPOS you can still make a good estimate that B5 ground troops while very good, and well organized wouldn't stand a chance against battletech ground troops. Secondly, correct e if I'm wrong, but B5 never really showed much usage of orbital bombardment, and any navy where the officiers were taught Ethics First, Orders second would probably object to ground bombardment.

[fgalkin]

Aw great, now we've got to try and find a sci-fi force that won't destroy the BattleTech universe in under 5 minutes.

Any ideas?

OBS? No, wait, its gonna be under 5 secons, not minutes.

[HRogge]

Actually I disagree with the B5 analysis. Although the only real thing we see of B5 ground troops comes from GROPOS you can still make a good estimate that B5 ground troops while very good, and well organized wouldn't stand a chance against battletech ground troops. Secondly, correct e if I'm wrong, but B5 never really showed much usage of orbital bombardment, and any navy where the officiers were taught Ethics First, Orders second would probably object to ground bombardment.

The White Star seemed to be quite capable of point bombardment on the surface of Mars...I don't think Mechs would like a small group of White Stars to do some strafing runs...

[Straha]

The White Star seemed to be quite capable of point bombardment on the surface of Mars...I don't think Mechs would like a small group of White Stars to do some strafing runs...

Yeah, but do you think that Sheriden, Delen, or almost anyone from the command crew (except Ivanava) would comit the horrible ethical crime of killing people without giving them the chance to fight back.
Secondly it wouldn't matter about point bombardment if the mechs are hidden in jungles, glaciers, cities, or other places of guerilla fighting which would force landings.
And finally remember the objective is to capture the planet, which requires more then just orbital bombardment.

[RayCav of ASVS]

Alright I see this, clan (snow raven, my personal fav) vs any other sci-fi you want.

My basic over all assumption space battles hands down go to any other sci-fi (hell even red dwarf!) as no manueverability bare basic weapons, and no true battle ships of any kind.

Land goes on a case by case basis, The feds from st would have their buts handed to them, sw would depend on army but probably as soon as heavy weapons hit play (at-ats and orbital bombardment) would be masacred before you could say STRAVAG. Gundam really wouldn't know, wtc.

I love BattleTech, but it is pretty weak.

First, let's separate the two realms - Ground and Space Combat.

Ground:

Against Star Trek: Trek gets creamed. BTech has infantry, armor, and air support (mostly applies to IS only). Trek has sucicidal Redshirts with pop guns and wimpy hoppers.

Against Star Wars: BTech gets creamed, but at least they give SOME fight. BTech has all the elements (ground support, armor support, infantry, air support) but is simply lacking in range and firepower, and SERIOUSLY. Minimal losses to the Empire, but unlike against the Federation, at least they suffer SOME losses.

Against Gundam: I honestly believe BTech gets creamed here too, for basically the same reasons above.

Against B5: Never saw B5 ground forces, so can't comment.

Against Macross: An interesting and sensitive subject actually, since many BTech designs were lifted from Macross, but Playmates sued and all lifted designs were pulled.

Space:

Against Trek: Like on the ground, Trek gets creamed. The range deficiency that spells their doom against other universes is no longer a problem. If anything, Trek probably has SHORTER ranges (the larger the weapon in BTech, the longer the range; hence, captial scale weaponry has monster ranges, capable of orbital bombardment from geosyncrenous orbit) In addition, and unlike Trek, BTech does actually have true warships whose sole purpose is the engagement of other ships. Such examples are the Sovietsky Soyuz, Aegis and Cameron class Clan battleships and the Fox and Impavido class battleships for the Inner Sphere. Additionally, they also posses dedicated logistic ships, such as the Megellian class. Not to mention aerospace fighters, which are almost as famous as the BattleMechs themselves.

Against Wars: BTech gets creamed. Do we really need to explain why?

Against Gundam: BTech gets creamed again. You simply can't beat crazy, whacked-out Japanese Anime:)

Against B5: If B5 has a significant range advantage, then B5 may very well win. Not knowing a lot about B5, I can't really say, but it will probably end up being the most evenly matched universe, even if it does still end up lop-sided.

[RayCav of ASVS]

BTECH AND GUNDAM FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RayCav of ASVS]

Aw great, now we've got to try and find a sci-fi force that won't destroy the BattleTech universe in under 5 minutes.

Any ideas?

[RayCav of ASVS]

I hate to destroy the dreams of all battletech fans ( I'm a battletech fan too ) but the Battlespace rulebook mentions a small fighter based missile with a nuke... it says that this nuke has enough power to destroy any Combat-Spacehip with a single hit.

If this is true a single beam/missile of a good startrek/starwars/b5 spaceship would kill a Texas...

Star Wars yes B5 yes Star Trek hell no...I think on ASVS we figured that a photo torp does not even equal a megaton or something.

Also, does it say what the yeild on that thing is?

[LordChaos]

I am a diehard Btech fan.

but over at SB, my stance is well known... btech would beat the movie MI, but that's about it.

(course, they don't like that I take the game rules over the fluff text and novels because the game rules are far more consistant).

[fgalkin]

The White Star seemed to be quite capable of point bombardment on the surface of Mars...I don't think Mechs would like a small group of White Stars to do some strafing runs...

Yeah, but do you think that Sheriden, Delen, or almost anyone from the command crew (except Ivanava) would comit the horrible ethical crime of killing people without giving them the chance to fight back.
Secondly it wouldn't matter about point bombardment if the mechs are hidden in jungles, glaciers, cities, or other places of guerilla fighting which would force landings.
And finally remember the objective is to capture the planet, which requires more then just orbital bombardment.

They had little problem doing that on mars.

[Darik Sdair]

hmmm, given that this is SD.net and all, why are we basing the appraisal here on completely subjective measure.

A 120kg projectile moving at 24,933 m/s (22 17-km hexes divided by 15 seconds) has 37 gigajoules of energy behind it. That's the energy yield of a slug from a starfighter-scale gauss cannon (which has a maximum effective range of 374 kilometers in a vacuum and in the absence of the massive electronic warfare that restricts land-warfare targeting systems).

The BTU's drawbacks are mainly limited to the internal mechanics of the universe. Consider:

The BattleTech universe has a single-fire 185mm weapon that can deliver the equivalent of about 50 GJ of energy to its target (ChemJet 185mm AC/20, Demolisher Heavy Tank). The weapon is non-nuclear in character and does not create substantial "splash" damage; the shell weights a little under 200 kilograms, and generates enough waste heat from its firing that early models of the tank that mounted it required the crew to wear freon-cooled "space suits" to survive the weapon's firing.

The BTU also has particle cannons in the 25-37 GJ regime, which once again cause very little splash effect.

BTU has armor that is highly resistant to armor piercing shots; despite the high energy yields, only about 7% of hits will penetrate the armor without first physically blasting it to bits. 'Mechs are highly compartmentalized, and it takes an internal ammunition explosion to breach multiple compartment walls. A 'mech can have one of its sides completely staved in, then submerge in deep water and not lose hull integrety in the other areas of its hull; likewise, even 'mechs with exposed "glass" cockpits can repel a direct weapon hit from all but the heaviest weapons to the pilot's compartment (though enough energy is transfered to rough up the pilot a little).

BTU has gyroscope and engine technology that allow for 100-ton robots to fly through the air as far as 120 meters on a plasma jet with no negative effect to the 'mech and no chance of losing flight control in the absence of serious structural damage. Some 'mechs of the Star League era as heavy as fifty tons were capable of transforming into spaceworthy fighter aircraft without compromising their armor protection.

Knowing all this we run into a couple of known problems.

1) nuclear weapons are extremely effective against BTU units; for whatever reason, the characteristics of the armor of BTU units is very inefficient at repelling nuclear weapons. It is unlikely however that this is solely because of the thermal energy of the weapons, since plasma torches (flamers) are one of the weakest weapons in the game in terms of damage, and since being doused in a napalm-like compound has no effect other than dramatically raising the internal temperature of the machine.

Likewise, in outer space, the theoretical Alamo missile can destroy all known ships in a single hit. However, the yield of the Alamo is no known, and the weapon does not actually exist in the game - due to this, its hard to directly judge the effects of the weapon.

One thing is clear: the defensive technologies in the BattleTech universe can repel kinetic and thermal impacts of tremendous power - despite this, high explosives and nuclear weapons seem to still be effective. Those in the community who are engineers might be able to explain this better than me.

2) In ground combat, the range of weapons drops off dramatically. Some have claimed that this is a literal physical limitation. However, the rules dealing with using 'mechs in outer space explain that the limitation of 'mechs' weapons is due far more to the targeting packages than to the actual weapons. 'Mechs operate in an environment drenched in heavy jamming that renders guided missiles and "smart" targeting systems very unreliable. About a quarter of a ton of cutting-edge sensor technology is required to retain enough control over a guided missile to hit a target at ranges of 270 meters with consistency (the Clan version is more weight-efficient due to their superior level of technology). Cloaking and Stealth technology, along with enhanced ECM carried by some specialized units, can even further increase the level of electronic blockage.

3) In space, BattleTech units are relatively slow compared to other Sci-Fi contenders, due to their lack of acceleration cancelation technology and other "magic tricks."

Anyway, hope this adds to the discussion

[spongyblue]

Robotech all the way! On the ground a several squads of Destroids of various designs(if you watch the show you know there hardly ever traveled in groups of less then 10) With air support that can turn into ground support in about 10 sec, I say they got the ground covered. In space, they aint gotta chance. Several dozen veretech squadrons are on their ass, if there stupid enough to close to the SDF-1 they'll get shredded by destroid fire. If the still manage to survive, the SDF-1 has two, thats right , two cards up its sleeve. The Deadalis manuver and the supercannon. No chance.

[Pablo Sanchez]

BTECH AND GUNDAM FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Gunner, target forward."

"Spotted. Atlas, 1000 meters. Target is... laid in."

"Fire."

"Roger... direct hit. Looks like a partial penetration of the middle torso. Target is on fire and attempting to flee."

"Loader?"

"AP loaded!"

"Gunner, fire."

"Roger.. direct hit. Target has exploded."

"Good. Driver, forward at half-speed."

Tanks always win

[RayCav of ASVS]

BTECH AND GUNDAM FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Gunner, target forward."

"Spotted. Atlas, 1000 meters. Target is... laid in."

"Fire."

"Roger... direct hit. Looks like a partial penetration of the middle torso. Target is on fire and attempting to flee."

"Loader?"

"AP loaded!"

"Gunner, fire."

"Roger.. direct hit. Target has exploded."

"Good. Driver, forward at half-speed."

Tanks always win

No problem....

/me takes poor Pablo and crams him down a really really small tube

Remember...violence solves everything:)

[Straha]

Sorry i've been gone. Was on vacation in Texas.

I thought of this though. The clans could feasibly (not bloody likley but hey) cause significant damage to the empire by using hit and run tactics where a fully charged jump ship jumps in over LIGHTLY defended planet. Drops the dropships, destroys oppisistion(sp?) takes high tech matierial, foodstuffs, food, etc. and runs to nearby uninhabited system not to be seen again for a month.

Eventually clan meets rebels, joins rebel to get faster ships, more warm bodies, etc.

[VF5SS]

Robotech all the way! On the ground a several squads of Destroids of various designs(if you watch the show you know there hardly ever traveled in groups of less then 10) With air support that can turn into ground support in about 10 sec, I say they got the ground covered. In space, they aint gotta chance. Several dozen veretech squadrons are on their ass, if there stupid enough to close to the SDF-1 they'll get shredded by destroid fire. If the still manage to survive, the SDF-1 has two, thats right , two cards up its sleeve. The Deadalis manuver and the supercannon. No chance.

Its MACROSS!!! DAMN YOU! MACROSS!!! VF-1 Valkyries not Very-teks! MAAKUROSUUU!! Yeah but you still have a point. Go Macross!!!