Stranded

[His Divine Shadow]

A single Dreadnought annihilated an task force of battlecruisers, and the broadside of a battlecruiser is enough (yes, yes, the infamous qoute) to "shatter a small moon".

Yes yes, an ISD can shatter a midsized moon in a broadside.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'll do some math on this, a small moon eh? whats small? 1-100km in diameter mayhaps?

If it's 100km then thats a 1TT broadside
If it's 200km then thats a 8TT broadside

An ISD by my calcs can shatter a 430km diameter moon(80TT)

Actually thats not certain either, it's got to do with how the energy is applied too, but purely in terms of joules it is technically sufficient.

[NecronLord]

Humm I think that baltar would ally with piett, baltar being a trecharous bastard. And destroy the GHC and then sort out the others. Baltar would then flee the basestar for the ISD, giving the basestar orders to self destruct (he only cares about his own neck)

[Pu-239]

LOL...it's bad enough when they're around people who DO watch Trek (I like to be able to laugh at something other than the horrible news reporters every now and then). Of course, the Honorverse isn't a tv show (though I'd love to see movies...hint, hint for any Hollywood-type people who might wander across this), but there's probably as much technical data strewn through the books as there is in all of the TNG episodes combined.

I think Mike was referring to Andromeda… The irony in his statement is that Andromeda in the first season beat out Voyager in ratings often enough. It held the spot for a top syndicated show and action hour for consistently for sometime before Tribune started to meddle with the show. Then the ratings dropped…

There is a sustainable rate of fire from pods only (not including internal tubes) of 300 missiles per minute, or a single "ambush" salvo of 2000 missiles with fire rate dropping to 300 missiles per minute after the first salvo.

To compare a Glorious Heritage Cruiser (XMC) can salvo 320 missiles every second and can sustain that rate of fire.

Additionally, the new VLRMs have extended range over the old missiles, with a powered range of 14,000,000 kilometers and top speed of .54C at 92,000g acceleration. If the drive is stepped down to 46,000g, the extended life allows a powered range of 65,000,000 kilometers and a top speed of .81C.

Your standard OM-5 kinetic missiles have a range of 18 to 27 million kilometers and accelerate at 2600-4200 Kilo G with a top speed of .95 C. Smart missiles depending on variety have a range from 8 to 24 light minutes depending on variety with a speed of .90 C.

Hopefully they will restore to what it was before once ratings drop to unacceptable levels. Of course entertainment companies are stupid, so the likeliness of this happening is nil. KILL JERKULES

[Dahak]

To compare a Glorious Heritage Cruiser (XMC) can salvo 320 missiles every second and can sustain that rate of fire.

Your standard OM-5 kinetic missiles have a range of 18 to 27 million kilometers and accelerate at 2600-4200 Kilo G with a top speed of .95 C. Smart missiles depending on variety have a range from 8 to 24 light minutes depending on variety with a speed of .90 C.

But a single HH missile is at 230 tons (or more for Ghostrider) more massive than that volley from a GHC.
Those missiles are a lot smaller and rely on real-contact hits, and that's a serious disadvantage when dealing with HH ships. Whereas HH missiles have a stand-off range of 20,000km and hit you...

[Renewed_Valour1]

But a single HH missile is at 230 tons (or more for Ghostrider) more massive than that volley from a GHC.Those missiles are a lot smaller and rely on real-contact hits, and that's a serious disadvantage when dealing with HH ships. Whereas HH missiles have a stand-off range of 20,000km and hit you...

The size of Honorverse missiles pretty much screws them for the chances of reaching that 20,000 km standoff range when going up against the defenses of a GHC. The things accelerate slower than and are larger targets than a High Guard fighter. They could just start picking them off with offensive missiles at over a light minute away. Then switch to AP cannon fire and defensive missiles once the range closes down to a few light seconds. That standoff range isn't large enough to matter in this case.

[Dahak]

But a single HH missile is at 230 tons (or more for Ghostrider) more massive than that volley from a GHC.Those missiles are a lot smaller and rely on real-contact hits, and that's a serious disadvantage when dealing with HH ships. Whereas HH missiles have a stand-off range of 20,000km and hit you...

The size of Honorverse missiles pretty much screws them for the chances of reaching that 20,000 km standoff range when going up against the defenses of a GHC. The things accelerate slower than and are larger targets than a High Guard fighter. They could just start picking them off with offensive missiles at over a light minute away. Then switch to AP cannon fire and defensive missiles once the range closes down to a few light seconds. That standoff range isn't large enough to matter in this case.

The ability of a GHC to hurt a SD(P), and vice versa, using long-range weapons is not very pronounced.
As it may be hard for a HH missile to get into firing range, even in a full missile volley, the chance for the much smaller Andromeda missiles to get through PD range, Sidewalls, and/or particle shields is just as slim.
Unless the GHC comes into energy range of the SD, it's quite a stalemate.

[Renewed_Valour1]

chance for the much smaller Andromeda missiles to get through PD range, Sidewalls, and/or particle shields is just as slim.

I don't think the PDs are going to be that devastatingly useful against High Guard missiles that are much smaller, faster, and have no wedge for them to track. In the same way the missiles shouldn't have too many problems going for a throat/kilt shot on the SDP.

Do the particle shields suffer cumulative damage and then fall? Or is there a certain threshold you have to be over to induce them to fail?

[Dahak]

chance for the much smaller Andromeda missiles to get through PD range, Sidewalls, and/or particle shields is just as slim.

I don't think the PDs are going to be that devastatingly useful against High Guard missiles that are much smaller, faster, and have no wedge for them to track. In the same way the missiles shouldn't have too many problems going for a throat/kilt shot on the SDP.

Do the particle shields suffer cumulative damage and then fall? Or is there a certain threshold you have to be over to induce them to fail?

They use LIDAR and RADAR tracking, and so they'll be able to track them.
And, as pointed out already, it is highly doubtable that you will get a throat or kilt hit.
The aft and fore parts of an HH ship are the toughest part, equipped with the biggest weapon and thick with their own PD.
Plus the *kinetic* missiles actually have to get through particle shields. Given the tiny size of Andromeda missiles this is highly debatable.

And it is not known if the shields suffer from cumulative damage. Since they are able to protect the ship under full power indefinitely, I don't think they do.

[Renewed_Valour1]

They use LIDAR and RADAR tracking, and so they'll be able to track them.

They can track them but with a severely reduced capability compared to what they are used to against a much more evasive target.

The aft and fore parts of an HH ship are the toughest part, equipped with the biggest weapon and thick with their own PD.

Point defenses that are designed to track something that is several meters longer and .20 PSL slower than the largest smart missiles.

Plus the *kinetic* missiles actually have to get through particle shields. Given the tiny size of Andromeda missiles this is highly debatable.

Smart missiles however do carry m/am warheads we know that from Dance of the Mayflies and the destruction of the Balance of Judgment.

And it is not known if the shields suffer from cumulative damage. Since they are able to protect the ship under full power indefinitely, I don't think they do.

What have we seen the particles shields resist and what has brought them down?

[The Dark]

Well, the collision of two ships (one with drive down, other with drive up, IIRC) was enough to damage both of them...I can't think of anything else that breached the particle shields off the top of my head. The ship collision reference is from Echoes of Honor, when Admiral White Haven is doing the crash translation through both ends of the Manticore Junction, if anyone wants to find the exact quote, since I don't have access to my books until Saturday.

[Dahak]

What have we seen the particles shields resist and what has brought them down?

There never was an occasion that a ships particle shields failed.
There never is any concern for a captain that his shileds might not protect him up to maximum safe sublight speed, only that his compensators may fail...

[Renewed_Valour1]

There never was an occasion that a ships particle shields failed.There never is any concern for a captain that his shileds might not protect him up to maximum safe sublight speed, only that his compensators may fail...

So the only statement is that they are capable of standing up to space debris at speeds up to .8 C? Your average chunk space debris assuming you aren’t plowing through an asteroid field even if you are traveling at .8 c probably won’t have the kinetic energy of an OM-5 at terminal velocity much less an entire salvo them impacting at once. Most space debris is fairly small in size.

[Dahak]

There never was an occasion that a ships particle shields failed.There never is any concern for a captain that his shileds might not protect him up to maximum safe sublight speed, only that his compensators may fail...

So the only statement is that they are capable of standing up to space debris at speeds up to .8 C? Your average chunk space debris assuming you aren’t plowing through an asteroid field even if you are traveling at .8 c probably won’t have the kinetic energy of an OM-5 at terminal velocity much less an entire salvo them impacting at once. Most space debris is fairly small in size.

Well, if they would be able to do damage: Activate Bow and Stern Walls
And, of course, Hunt would have to know that there *is* a Troat and kilt of the ship.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Well, if they would be able to do damage: Activate Bow and Stern Walls

Then the GHC can close down the range on the immobile SDP and engage with AP cannons. AP Cannons according to your statement earlier and All Systems out range Mantie energy weapons by a light second.

And, of course, Hunt would have to know that there *is* a Throat and kilt of the ship.

The High Guard uses AG technology in a lot of their equipment and have shown the capability to have sensors that should be able to detect the sidewall and wedge. From that point it really isn't hard to jump to the next logical step that there is nothing at the throat and kilt.

[The Dark]

There never was an occasion that a ships particle shields failed.There never is any concern for a captain that his shileds might not protect him up to maximum safe sublight speed, only that his compensators may fail...

So the only statement is that they are capable of standing up to space debris at speeds up to .8 C? Your average chunk space debris assuming you aren’t plowing through an asteroid field even if you are traveling at .8 c probably won’t have the kinetic energy of an OM-5 at terminal velocity much less an entire salvo them impacting at once. Most space debris is fairly small in size.

Well, if they would be able to do damage: Activate Bow and Stern Walls
And, of course, Hunt would have to know that there *is* a Troat and kilt of the ship.

Good point...is there any canon reference to the Shrike style bowwalls and sternwalls being installed on capital ships? If so, it would become a matter of "incoming salvo! Raise walls!" in which case the ship would become much tougher. I really need my books.

[Dahak]

Well, if they would be able to do damage: Activate Bow and Stern Walls

Then the GHC can close down the range on the immobile SDP and engage with AP cannons. AP Cannons according to your statement earlier and All Systems out range Mantie energy weapons by a light second.

And, of course, Hunt would have to know that there *is* a Throat and kilt of the ship.

The High Guard uses AG technology in a lot of their equipment and have shown the capability to have sensors that should be able to detect the sidewall and wedge. From that point it really isn't hard to jump to the next logical step that there is nothing at the throat and kilt.

How long is an AP cannon range exactly?
And the 3 light seconds range for the energy weapons is for targets *with* side walls, above roughly those 3 light seconds the weapons won't burn through side walls.
But an GHC doesn't have a side wall, so the range is even higher.

And about Bow/stern walls: they were installing them on all the modern craft...

[Renewed_Valour1]

How long is an AP cannon range exactly?

AP cannon range is dependent on several factors. The main limitation is the maneuverability of the target. Against a normal maneuverable Andromedaverse target you're dealing with an effective range of about 4 light seconds according to All Systems beyond that achieving a hit it is unlikely. Against a Honorverse ship you could probably get a little more range under normal conditions against a Mantie vessel. Against a vessel with bow and stern walls up you have someone coasting along on a relatively straight line so that will add to the effective range. The other main limitation is the amount of space debris that will be getting in the path of the beam of AP.

But an GHC doesn't have a side wall, so the range is even higher...

They still have the inherent problem that the High Guard has in tracking a target and engaging with their AP cannons. When you are using c limited sensors to target energy weapons against someone as maneuverable as a GHC you reach a point where the chance to achieve a hit drops way off.

[Dahak]

How long is an AP cannon range exactly?

AP cannon range is dependent on several factors. The main limitation is the maneuverability of the target. Against a normal maneuverable Andromedaverse target you're dealing with an effective range of about 4 light seconds according to All Systems beyond that achieving a hit it is unlikely. Against a Honorverse ship you could probably get a little more range under normal conditions against a Mantie vessel. Against a vessel with bow and stern walls up you have someone coasting along on a relatively straight line so that will add to the effective range. The other main limitation is the amount of space debris that will be getting in the path of the beam of AP.

But an GHC doesn't have a side wall, so the range is even higher...

They still have the inherent problem that the High Guard has in tracking a target and engaging with their AP cannons. When you are using c limited sensors to target energy weapons against someone as maneuverable as a GHC you reach a point where the chance to achieve a hit drops way off.

And just how dangerous will an AP beam be against the side wall? Even anti-protons will get affected by gravity, so they have to get throught the side wall first to do damage.

And the GHC has to get a firm lock of the SD(P), too. Which is a bit difficult, since its sidewalls and impellers make that a bit murky. And of course there is EW and ECM, which can't be neglected.

[The Dark]

How long is an AP cannon range exactly?

AP cannon range is dependent on several factors. The main limitation is the maneuverability of the target. Against a normal maneuverable Andromedaverse target you're dealing with an effective range of about 4 light seconds according to All Systems beyond that achieving a hit it is unlikely. Against a Honorverse ship you could probably get a little more range under normal conditions against a Mantie vessel. Against a vessel with bow and stern walls up you have someone coasting along on a relatively straight line so that will add to the effective range. The other main limitation is the amount of space debris that will be getting in the path of the beam of AP.

True, but if the bow wall is brought up only to block missiles, the Medusa will be able to maneuver as soon as it drops the wall. Even if the AP beam is capable of striking at long range, that does not necessarily mean that it will deal damage. Remember, a sidewall is immune to grasers and X-ray lasers at ranges greater than 40,000 km. Is an AP beam that much more powerful than a gamma ray laser that it would penetrate such a shield? (And I am asking this in seriousness, I don't know the energy outputs of either). And I do agree that EW, particularly Ghost Rider EW, will probably cause targeting problems, since it can simulate all the characteristics of the ship from energy output to gravitic signature. Only visual is known to be able to tell the difference easily, and at 3 or 4 light seconds of range visual is going to be hard to obtain.

[Connor MacLeod]

You know the problem with sci-fi shows that nobody watches? Their fans can say whatever they want, and nobody can contradict them. Imagine what Trekkies would say if they were surrounded by people who had never actually watched Trek.

Ah. except for Trek, I'm quite aware of all the shows and universes. I'm quite qualified to judge this.



Excalibur - nonentity. Even the most optimistic firepower estimates would put it in the low GT range, and thats by using the main gun. It would be mauled in microseconds in an energy duel with an ISD, GHC, or SD(P), and stands a good chance of being mauled by even Picard.

TRek - dont know much about Trek, but consensus would seem to argue they only stand a chance against B5 and BSG.

BSG - agian, I dont know, but unless what I've heard of BSG is wrong, they probably won't fare as well as Trek or B5.

So what it really comes down to is the ISD, the GHC, and the SD(P)

Of the three, the ISD II has the most raw energy weapons firepower (possibly missile firepower, if this is a model equipped with them) and the toughest defenses. The other two ships stand an infinitesimal chance of damaging, much less destroying the ISD II before they themselves are destroyed. IT also has superior sensors to both, and superior acceleration to the SD(P) (but not the Andromeda.) The other major limitation is its agility and lack of range - unless the ships stray into beam weapons range (and if they know about the ISD-2, I dont see them willingly doing this) the ISD-2 probably can't hurt them. With missiles.. well its possible, but since the other two ships are primarily missile-armament vessels (and the ISD-2 isn't), this means that they're less likely to breach their missile-oriented defenses.

The remaining two, the SD(P) and GHC, are more interesting. Obviously they have better missile weapons ranges than the ISD, but this is of limited use. Longer ranges mean longer flight times, in the most basic sense, and missiles are a more finite resource than energy weapon ammo. Both sides are capable of relatavistic travel, and are familiar with fighting at those speeds. Their firepower levels are comparable.

That perhaps is where the similarities end. In Andromeda, the primary shipkiller is the kinetic warhead. Each missile is individually less destructive than a comparalbe Manticoran missile, but they are also alot smaller, and the launchers have much higher refire rates. They also have the highest sublight accelerations for ships and probably missiles of anyone in this group. They lack FTL comm and sensors, though, and they have to sacrifice mobility in order to achieve higher speeds (inertia - this is true of the ships and the missiles.) The other real advantage they have is that their fighters are extremely well armed for their size (although no worse than a SW fighter missile armred - possibly their AP guns give them more punch than a SW fighters lasers tho.)

The Manty SD(P) is orders of magnitude slower and less agile than the GHC and even an order of magnitude or two slower than an ISD. ITs also far larger than both (although less massive than the ISD) and probably far tougher than the GHC (relatively speaking, due to its bigger mass and emphasis on tougher defenses) They also have FTL sensors and communications (which can be used on their drones) They also have their impeller wedges and sidewalls AND bow/stern walls. Effectively, they can nullify any "mass" based weapon attack on them - which basically tosses out all the heavy armament on the GHC (unless they get lucky and hit the SD(P) with its bow/stern walls down - not impossible due to their agility advantage.) I also do suspect that Manty point defense lasers are individually less capable than Andromeda PDS lasers, but they mount many more of them, which helps to even things out. There are of course the actual wedges themselves.

Offensively, their missiles are multi-ton, independently seeking multistage drive missiles. At the highest accel of 96,000 gravities, they have an active flight time of 180 seconds, assuming continuous burn (60 seconds per stage) - and at around 46,000-48,000 gravities, its five times that - hence the long range and high velocity. They tend to use powerful multimegaton warheads - commonly a bomb-pumped x-ray laser. Capital missiles (which a MDM is) can also carry multiple warheads (MIRV) style.

The advantage of the "laser head" is that the missile can detonate at a "stand off" distance and damage/destroy the target without actually contacting it. Typical "Stand off" ranges seem to be well into the tens of thousands of km range, but its probable they could easily be hundreds of thousands of km as well.

This is of course offset by the fact that most launchers take several seconds (11 seconds per standard manty launcher in Honor of the Queen). Roughly speaking, we're talking between 30-60 standard launchers per broadside. The "pods" can be cycled at six per 12 second, with each pod launching ten missiles. They're also huge, massively emitting targets (they require active targeting at least at SOME point, and they have that impeller wedge for those who can detect gravity.) The one advantage Manty missiles enjoy is their own EW capabilities, and missile salvos often supplement their "shipkillers" with missiles dedicated to pure EW functions.

Another small advantage that their ships enjoy is that their weapons are effectively massless. This renders the gravitic defenses of the Andromeda nearly useless, as I recall the science advisor Woodmansee saying on slispstreambbs. Energy weapons, by the way, have a range of 400,000-500,000 km against a target with sidewalls.

Again, its unlikey that the GHC would dare come close enough to get smacked by the SD(P) in energy duels, and even if the SD(P) is at a disadavantage in missile duels, the standoff ability of the laser head (coupled with its active flight nature, drive time, and especially IF the Andromeda favors ranges closer to its high-end capability) still give it a chance of hitting the ship except if it decides to reverse course (but if the ship itself is moving at high speeds, this of course will not be immediately possible.) By that same token, like with the ISD, the GHC is unlikely to be able to do much to the SD(P), unless it can jam a missile salvo down an unprotected aft or stern of the ship.

Ideally, since everyone knows the others capabilities, we're not going to see much actual duelling amongst anyone, and probably more "standing off." Unless one side gets extremely lucky, that is.

IDeally, Piett would be heading to occupy the warp gate and threaten anyone who tried to get close (or force away anyone heading for it.) This would probably work for anyone except the XMC, which can out-accelerate any of them handily and escape (and destroy the gate) before anyone could stop them, unless said gate was extremely close to the ISD or SD(P's) initial positions and far from the XMC's.

[Connor MacLeod]

I've never actually watched a full episode and certainly don't know tech specs. All I know for a comparison is that the Ghost Rider Missiles (used in the pods) have a 90,000g acceleration

A Glorious Heritage Cruiser's normal range for acceleration is between 40,000 to 170,000 gs depending on how much of a hurry she is in. So with a little warning she could easily just avoid the missiles. In terms of fighting back High Guard missiles have no chance of getting through the sidewalls; however they are more than maneuverable enough to go for a throat/kilt hit.

What is the rate of fire for a SDP?

True, the GHC can out-accelerate the missiles, but their mobility will be hampered if they're moving at any substantially high relatavistic speeds, and less if they are moving towards a target or aside. This is also hampered somewhat by the strictly STL nature of the sensors (But not too much.) The real problem of course is the "Stand off" aspect of the warheads - they don't require precise hits with the missile to destroy the ship - and while the GHC can outrun the missiles for the most part, they CAN'T outrun the payload once the warhead detonates. All the missile has to do is get roughly ni the vicinty of the ship.

Remember also that SD(P)'s have bow/stern walls which would also defeat their missiles.

[Connor MacLeod]

Would ramming the shields of the ISD with the missiles wedge have some interesting effects?

Possibly. Shields might not do much, but they could possibly nullify their effects with inertial dampers, and barring that, they could just shoot them down outright.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sorry for the double post (unless someone posts while I'm writing), but I just founds some stats for the Medusa.

It carries 510 missiles pods internally, can launch 6 pods every 12 seconds, and can control 200 pods simultaneously. Each pod carries 10 capital missiles, larger than those carried by regular superdreadnoughts. There is a sustainable rate of fire from pods only (not including internal tubes) of 300 missiles per minute, or a single "ambush" salvo of 2000 missiles with fire rate dropping to 300 missiles per minute after the first salvo. Additionally, the new VLRMs have extended range over the old missiles, with a powered range of 14,000,000 kilometers and top speed of .54C at 92,000g acceleration. If the drive is stepped down to 46,000g, the extended life allows a powered range of 65,000,000 kilometers and a top speed of .81C.

Unfortunately, I can't find the acceleration of a Medusa/Harrington class ship anywhere online, so someone with the books handy will have to answer any questions on that. Once I go home this weekend I'll have all the information back in my hands.

Probably under 500gees, and likely to be around 430-450 gees.. thats ideal of course, assuming they redline the compensators...

[Connor MacLeod]

To compare a Glorious Heritage Cruiser (XMC) can salvo 320 missiles every second and can sustain that rate of fire.

Your standard OM-5 kinetic missiles have a range of 18 to 27 million kilometers and accelerate at 2600-4200 Kilo G with a top speed of .95 C. Smart missiles depending on variety have a range from 8 to 24 light minutes depending on variety with a speed of .90 C.

But a single HH missile is at 230 tons (or more for Ghostrider) more massive than that volley from a GHC.
Those missiles are a lot smaller and rely on real-contact hits, and that's a serious disadvantage when dealing with HH ships. Whereas HH missiles have a stand-off range of 20,000km and hit you...

That stand-off range only applies to a target protected by a sidewall remember. What you're firing is essentially a remote-laser weapon at the target, so the effective range of the laser-head missile can be much greater (potentially a LS or so even)