Twixters: twenty-somethings who just won't grow up

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Twixters: twenty-somethings who just won't grow up

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TIME magazine wrote:Grow Up? Not So Fast.
MEET THE TWIXTERS. THEY'RE NOT KIDS ANYMORE, BUT THEY'RE NOT ADULTS EITHER. WHY A NEW BREED OF YOUNG PEOPLE WON'T--OR CAN'T?--SETTLE DOWN
By LEV GROSSMAN

Jan. 24, 2005

Michele, Ellen, Nathan, Corinne, Marcus and Jennie are friends. All of them live in Chicago. They go out three nights a week, sometimes more. Each of them has had several jobs since college; Ellen is on her 17th, counting internships, since 1996. They don't own homes. They change apartments frequently. None of them are married, none have children. All of them are from 24 to 28 years old.

Thirty years ago, people like Michele, Ellen, Nathan, Corinne, Marcus and Jennie didn't exist, statistically speaking. Back then, the median age for an American woman to get married was 21. She had her first child at 22. Now it all takes longer. It's 25 for the wedding and 25 for baby. It appears to take young people longer to graduate from college, settle into careers and buy their first homes. What are they waiting for? Who are these permanent adolescents, these twentysomething Peter Pans? And why can't they grow up?

Everybody knows a few of them--full-grown men and women who still live with their parents, who dress and talk and party as they did in their teens, hopping from job to job and date to date, having fun but seemingly going nowhere. Ten years ago, we might have called them Generation X, or slackers, but those labels don't quite fit anymore. This isn't just a trend, a temporary fad or a generational hiccup. This is a much larger phenomenon, of a different kind and a different order.

Social scientists are starting to realize that a permanent shift has taken place in the way we live our lives. In the past, people moved from childhood to adolescence and from adolescence to adulthood, but today there is a new, intermediate phase along the way. The years from 18 until 25 and even beyond have become a distinct and separate life stage, a strange, transitional never-never land between adolescence and adulthood in which people stall for a few extra years, putting off the iron cage of adult responsibility that constantly threatens to crash down on them. They're betwixt and between. You could call them twixters.

Where did the twixters come from? And what's taking them so long to get where they're going? Some of the sociologists, psychologists and demographers who study this new life stage see it as a good thing. The twixters aren't lazy, the argument goes, they're reaping the fruit of decades of American affluence and social liberation. This new period is a chance for young people to savor the pleasures of irresponsibility, search their souls and choose their life paths. But more historically and economically minded scholars see it differently. They are worried that twixters aren't growing up because they can't. Those researchers fear that whatever cultural machinery used to turn kids into grownups has broken down, that society no longer provides young people with the moral backbone and the financial wherewithal to take their rightful places in the adult world. Could growing up be harder than it used to be?

The sociologists, psychologists, economists and others who study this age group have many names for this new phase of life--"youthhood," "adultescence"--and they call people in their 20s "kidults" and "boomerang kids," none of which have quite stuck. Terri Apter, a psychologist at the University of Cambridge in England and the author of The Myth of Maturity, calls them "thresholders."

Apter became interested in the phenomenon in 1994, when she noticed her students struggling and flailing more than usual after college. Parents were baffled when their expensively educated, otherwise well-adjusted 23-year-old children wound up sobbing in their old bedrooms, paralyzed by indecision. "Legally, they're adults, but they're on the threshold, the doorway to adulthood, and they're not going through it," Apter says. The percentage of 26-year-olds living with their parents has nearly doubled since 1970, from 11% to 20%, according to Bob Schoeni, a professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan.

Jeffrey Arnett, a developmental psychologist??at??the???? University of Maryland, favors "emerging adulthood" to describe this new demographic group, and the term is the title of his new book on the subject. His theme is that the twixters are misunderstood. It's too easy to write them off as overgrown children, he argues. Rather, he suggests, they're doing important work to get themselves ready for adulthood. "This is the one time of their lives when they're not responsible for anyone else or to anyone else," Arnett says. "So they have this wonderful freedom to really focus on their own lives and work on becoming the kind of person they want to be." In his view, what looks like incessant, hedonistic play is the twixters' way of trying on jobs and partners and personalities and making sure that when they do settle down, they do it the right way, their way. It's not that they don't take adulthood seriously; they take it so seriously, they're spending years carefully choosing the right path into it.

But is that all there is to it? Take a giant step backward, look at the history and the context that led up to the rise of the twixters, and you start to wonder, Is it that they don't want to grow up, or is it that the rest of society won't let them?

SCHOOL DAZE

Matt Swann is 27 ??He took 6 1/2 years to graduate from the University of Georgia. When he finally finished, he had a brand-spanking-new degree in cognitive science, which he describes as a wide-ranging interdisciplinary field that covers cognition, problem solving, artificial intelligence, linguistics, psychology, philosophy and anthropology. All of which is pretty cool, but its value in today's job market is not clear. "Before the '90s maybe, it seemed like a smart guy could do a lot of things," Swann says. "Kids used to go to college to get educated. That's what I did, which I think now was a bit naive. Being smart after college doesn't really mean anything. 'Oh, good, you're smart. Unfortunately your productivity's s___, so we're going to have to fire you.'

College is the institution most of us entrust to watch over the transition to adulthood, but somewhere along the line that transition has slowed to a crawl. In a TIME poll of people ages 18 to 29, only 32% of those who attended college left school by age 21. In fact, the average college student takes five years to finish. The era of the four-year college degree is all but over.

Swann graduated in 2002 as a newly minted cognitive scientist, but the job he finally got a few months later was as a waiter in Atlanta. He waited tables for the next year and a half. It proved to be a blessing in disguise. Swann says he learned more real-world skills working in restaurants than he ever did in school. "It taught me how to deal with people. What you learn as a waiter is how to treat people fairly, especially when they're in a bad situation." That's especially valuable in his current job as an insurance-claims examiner.

There are several lessons about twixters to be learned from Swann's tale. One is that most colleges are seriously out of step with the real world in getting students ready to become workers in the postcollege world. Vocational schools like DeVry and Strayer, which focus on teaching practical skills, are seeing a mini-boom. Their enrollment grew 48% from 1996 to 2000. More traditional schools are scrambling to give their courses a practical spin. In the fall, Hendrix College in Conway, Ark., will introduce a program called the Odyssey project, which the school says will encourage students to "think outside the book" in areas like "professional and leadership development" and "service to the world." Dozens of other schools have set up similar initiatives.

As colleges struggle to get their students ready for real-world jobs, they are charging more for what they deliver. The resulting debt is a major factor in keeping twixters from moving on and growing up. Thirty years ago, most financial aid came in the form of grants, but now the emphasis is on lending, not on giving. Recent college graduates owe 85% more in student loans than their counterparts of a decade ago, according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research. In TIME's poll, 66% of those surveyed owed more than $10,000 when they graduated, and 5% owed more than $100,000. (And this says nothing about the credit-card companies that bombard freshmen with offers for cards that students then cheerfully abuse. Demos, a public-policy group, says credit-card debt for Americans 18 to 24 more than doubled from 1992 to 2001.) The longer it takes to pay off those loans, the longer it takes twixters to achieve the financial independence that's crucial to attaining an adult identity, not to mention the means to get out of their parents' house.

Meanwhile, those expensive, time-sucking college diplomas have become worth less than ever. So many more people go to college now--a 53% increase since 1970--that the value of a degree on the job market has been diluted. The advantage in wages for college-degree holders hasn't risen significantly since the late 1990s, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. To compensate, a lot of twixters go back to school for graduate and professional degrees. Swann, for example, is planning to head back to business school to better his chances in the insurance game. But piling on extra degrees costs precious time and money and pushes adulthood even further into the future.

WORK IN PROGRESS

Kate Galantha, 29, spent seven years working her way through college, transferring three times. After she finally graduated from Columbia College in Chicago (major: undeclared) in 2001, she moved to Portland, Ore., and went to work as a nanny and as an assistant to a wedding photographer. A year later she jumped back to Chicago, where she got a job in a flower shop. It was a full-time position with real benefits, but she soon burned out and headed for the territories, a.k.a. Madison, Wis. "I was really busy but not accomplishing anything," she says. "I didn't want to stay just for a job."

She had no job offers in Madison, and the only person she knew there was her older sister, but she had nothing tying her to Chicago (her boyfriend had moved to Europe) and she needed a change. The risk paid off. She got a position as an assistant at a photo studio, and she loves it. "I decided it was more important to figure out what to do and to be in a new environment," Galantha says. "It's exciting, and I'm in a place where I can accomplish everything. But starting over is the worst."

Galantha's frenetic hopping from school to school, job to job and city to city may look like aimless wandering. (She has moved six times since 1999. Her father calls her and her sister gypsies.) But Emerging Adulthood's Arnett--and Galantha--see it differently. To them, the period from 18 to 25 is a kind of sandbox, a chance to build castles and knock them down, experiment with different careers, knowing that none of it really counts. After all, this is a world of overwhelming choice: there are 40 kinds of coffee beans at Whole Foods Market, 205 channels on DirecTV, 15 million personal ads on Match.com and 800,000 jobs on Monster.com Can you blame Galantha for wanting to try them all? She doesn't want to play just the hand she has been dealt. She wants to look through the whole deck. "My problem is I'm really overstimulated by everything," Galantha says. "I feel there's too much information out there at all times. There are too many doors, too many people, too much competition."

Twixters expect to jump laterally from job to job and place to place until they find what they're looking for. The stable, quasi-parental bond between employer and employee is a thing of the past, and neither feels much obligation to make the relationship permanent. "They're well aware of the fact that they will not work for the same company for the rest of their life," says Bill Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution, a think tank based in Washington. "They don't think long-term about health care or Social Security. They're concerned about their careers and immediate gratification."

Twixters expect a lot more from a job than a paycheck. Maybe it's a reaction to the greed-is-good 1980s or to the whatever-is-whatever apathy of the early 1990s. More likely, it's the way they were raised, by parents who came of age in the 1960s as the first generation determined to follow its bliss, who want their children to change the world the way they did. Maybe it has to do with advances in medicine. Twixters can reasonably expect to live into their 80s and beyond, so their working lives will be extended accordingly and when they choose a career, they know they'll be there for a while. But whatever the cause, twixters are looking for a sense of purpose and importance in their work, something that will add meaning to their lives, and many don't want to rest until they find it. "They're not just looking for a job," Arnett says. "They want something that's more like a calling, that's going to be an expression of their identity." Hedonistic nomads, the twixters may seem, but there's a serious core of idealism in them.

Still, self-actualization is a luxury not everybody can afford, and looking at middle- and upper-class twixters gives only part of the picture. Twixters change jobs often, but they don't all do it for the same reasons, and one twixter's playful experimentation is another's desperate hustling. James C??t?? is a sociologist at the University of Western Ontario and the author of several books about twixters, including Generation on Hold and Arrested Adulthood. He believes that the economic bedrock that used to support adolescents on their journey into adulthood has shifted alarmingly. "What we're looking at really began with the collapse of the youth labor market, dating back to the late '70s and early '80s, which made it more difficult for people to get a foothold in terms of financial independence," C??t?? says. "You need a college degree now just to be where blue- collar people the same age were 20 or 30 years ago, and if you don't have it, then you're way behind." In other words, it's not that twixters don't want to become adults. They just can't afford to.

One way society defines an adult is as a person who is financially independent, with a family and a home. But families and homes cost money, and people in their late teens and early 20s don't make as much as they used to. The current crop of twixters grew up in the 1990s, when the dotcom boom made Internet millions seem just a business proposal away, but in reality they're worse off than the generation that preceded them. Annual earnings among men 25 to 34 with full-time jobs dropped 17% from 1971 to 2002, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Timothy Smeeding, a professor of economics at Syracuse University, found that only half of Americans in their mid-20s earn enough to support a family, and in TIME'S poll only half of those ages 18 to 29 consider themselves financially independent. Michigan's Schoeni says Americans ages 25 and 26 get an average of $2,323 a year in financial support from their parents.

The transition to adulthood gets tougher the lower you go on the economic and educational ladder. Sheldon Danziger, a public-policy professor at the University of Michigan, found that for male workers ages 25 to 29 with only a high school diploma, the average wage declined 11% from 1975 to 2002. "When I graduated from high school, my classmates who didn't want to go to college could go to the Goodyear plant and buy a house and support a wife and family," says Steve Hamilton of Cornell University's Youth and Work Program. "That doesn't happen anymore." Instead, high school grads are more likely to end up in retail jobs with low pay and minimal benefits, if any. From this end of the social pyramid, Arnett's vision of emerging adulthood as a playground of self-discovery seems a little rosy. The rules have changed, and not in the twixters' favor.

WEDDINGS CAN WAIT

With everything else that's going on--careers to be found, debts to be paid, bars to be hopped--love is somewhat secondary in the lives of the twixters. But that doesn't mean they're cynical about it. Au contraire: among our friends from Chicago--Michele, Ellen, Nathan, Corinne, Marcus and Jennie--all six say they are not ready for marriage yet but do want it someday, preferably with kids. Naturally, all that is comfortably situated in the eternally receding future. Thirty is no longer the looming deadline it once was. In fact, five of the Chicago six see marriage as a decidedly post-30 milestone.

"It's a long way down the road," says Marcus Jones, 28, a comedian who works at Banana Republic by day. "I'm too self-involved. I don't want to bring that into a relationship now." He expects to get married in his mid- to late 30s. "My wife is currently a sophomore in high school," he jokes.

"I want to get married but not soon," says Jennie Jiang, 26, a sixth-grade teacher. "I'm enjoying myself. There's a lot I want to do by myself still."

"I have my career, and I'm too young," says Michele Steele, 26, a TV producer. "It's commitment and sacrifice, and I think it's a hindrance. Lo and behold, people have come to the conclusion that it's not much fun to get married and have kids right out of college."

That attitude is new, but it didn't come out of nowhere. Certainly, the spectacle of the previous generation's mass divorces has something to do with the healthy skepticism shown by the twixters. They will spend a few years looking before they leap, thank you very much. "I fantasize more about sharing a place with someone than about my wedding day," says Galantha, whose parents split when she was 18. "I haven't seen a lot of good marriages."

But if twixters are getting married later, they are missing out on some of the social-support networks that come with having families of their own. To make up for it, they have a special gift for friendship, documented in books like Sasha Cagen's Quirkyalone and Ethan Watters' Urban Tribes, which asks the not entirely rhetorical question Are friends the new family? They throw cocktail parties and dinner parties. They hold poker nights. They form book groups. They stay in touch constantly and in real time, through social-networking technologies like cell phones, instant messaging, text messaging and online communities like Friendster. They're also close to their parents. TIME'S poll showed that almost half of Americans ages 18 to 29 talk to their parents every day.

Marrying late also means that twixters tend to have more sexual partners than previous generations. The situation is analogous to their promiscuous job-hopping behavior--like Goldilocks, they want to find the one that's just right--but it can give them a cynical, promiscuous vibe too. Arnett is worried that if anything, twixters are too romantic. In their universe, romance is totally detached from pragmatic concerns and societal pressures, so when twixters finally do marry, they're going to do it for Love with a capital L and no other reason. "Everybody wants to find their soul mate now," Arnett says, "whereas I think, for my parents' generation--I'm 47--they looked at it much more practically. I think a lot of people are going to end up being disappointed with the person that's snoring next to them by the time they've been married for a few years and they realize it doesn't work that way."

TWIXTER CULTURE

When it comes to social change, pop culture is the most sensitive of seismometers, and it was faster to pick up on the twixters than the cloistered social scientists. Look at the Broadway musical Avenue Q, in which puppets dramatize the vagaries of life after graduation. ("I wish I could go back to college," a character sings. "Life was so simple back then.") Look at that little TV show called Friends, about six people who put off marriage well into their 30s. Even twice-married Britney Spears fits the profile. For a succinct, albeit cheesy summation of the twixter predicament, you couldn't do much better than her 2001 hit I'm Not a Girl, Not Yet a Woman.

The producing duo Edward Zwick and Marshall Herskovitz, who created the legendarily zeitgeisty TV series thirtysomething and My So-Called Life, now have a pilot with ABC called 1/4life, about a houseful of people in their mid-20s who can't seem to settle down. "When you talk about this period of transition being extended, it's not what people intended to do," Herskovitz says, "but it's a result of the world not being particularly welcoming when they come into it. Lots of people have a difficult time dealing with it, and they try to stay kids as long as they can because they don't know how to make sense of all this. We're interested in this process of finding courage and one's self."

As for movies, a lot of twixters cite Garden State as one that really nails their predicament. "I feel like my generation is waiting longer and longer to get married," says Zach Braff, 29, who wrote, directed and starred in the film about a twentysomething actor who comes home for the first time in nine years. "In the past, people got married and got a job and had kids, but now there's a new 10 years that people are using to try and find out what kind of life they want to lead. For a lot of people, the weight of all the possibility is overwhelming."

Pop culture may reflect the changes in our lives, but it also plays its part in shaping them. Marketers have picked up on the fact that twixters on their personal voyages of discovery tend to buy lots of stuff along the way. "They are the optimum market to be going after for consumer electronics, Game Boys, flat-screen TVs, iPods, couture fashion, exotic vacations and so forth," says David Morrison, president of Twentysomething Inc., a marketing consultancy based in Philadelphia. "Most of their needs are taken care of by Mom and Dad, so their income is largely discretionary. [Many twentysomethings] are living at home, but if you look, you'll see flat-screen TVs in their bedrooms and brand-new cars in the driveway." Some twixters may want to grow up, but corporations and advertisers have a real stake in keeping them in a tractable, exploitable, pre-adult state--living at home, spending their money on toys.

LIVING WITH PETER PAN

Maybe the twixters are in denial about growing up, but the rest of society is equally in denial about the twixters. Nobody wants to admit they're here to stay, but that's where all the evidence points. Tom Smith, director of the General Social Survey, a large sociological data-gathering project run by the National Opinion Research Center, found that most people believe that the transition to adulthood should be completed by the age of 26, on average, and he thinks that number is only going up. "In another 10 or 20 years, we're not going to be talking about this as a delay. We're going to be talking about this as a normal trajectory," Smith says. "And we're going to think about those people getting married at 18 and forming families at 19 or 20 as an odd historical pattern."

There may even be a biological basis to all this. The human brain continues to grow and change into the early 20s, according to Abigail Baird, who runs the Laboratory for Adolescent Studies at Dartmouth. "We as a society deem an individual at the age of 18 ready for adult responsibility," Baird points out. "Yet recent evidence suggests that our neuropsychological development is many years from being complete. There's no reason to think 18 is a magic number." How can the twixters be expected to settle down when their gray matter hasn't?

A new life stage is a major change, and the rest of society will have to change to make room for it. One response to this very new phenomenon is extremely old-fashioned: medieval-style apprenticeship programs that give high school graduates a cheaper and more practical alternative to college. In 1996 Jack Smith, then CEO of General Motors, started Automotive Youth Educational Systems (AYES), a program that puts high school kids in shops alongside seasoned car mechanics. More than 7,800 students have tried it, and 98% of them have ended up working at the business where they apprenticed. "I knew this was my best way to get into a dealership," says Chris Rolando, 20, an AYES graduate who works at one in Detroit. "My friends are still at pizza-place jobs and have no idea what to do for a living. I just bought my own house and have a career."

But success stories like Rolando's are rare. Child welfare, the juvenile-justice system, special-education and support programs for young mothers usually cut off at age 18, and most kids in foster care get kicked out at 18 with virtually no safety net. "Age limits are like the time limits for welfare recipients," says Frank Furstenberg, a sociologist who heads a research consortium called the MacArthur Network on Transitions to Adulthood. "They're pushing people off the rolls, but they're not necessarily able to transition into supportive services or connections to other systems." And programs for the poor aren't the only ones that need to grow up with the times. Only 54% of respondents in the TIME poll were insured through their employers. That's a reality that affects all levels of society, and policymakers need to strengthen that safety net.

Most of the problems that twixters face are hard to see, and that makes it harder to help them. Twixters may look as if they have been overindulged, but they could use some judicious support. Apter's research at Cambridge suggests that the more parents sympathize with their twixter children, the more parents take time to discuss their twixters' life goals, the more aid and shelter they offer them, the easier the transition becomes. "Young people know that their material life will not be better than their parents'," Apter says. "They don't expect a safer life than their parents had. They don't expect more secure employment or finances. They have to put in a lot of work just to remain O.K." Tough love may look like the answer, but it's not what twixters need.

The real heavy lifting may ultimately have to happen on the level of the culture itself. There was a time when people looked forward to taking on the mantle of adulthood. That time is past. Now our culture trains young people to fear it. "I don't ever want a lawn," says Swann. "I don't ever want to drive two hours to get to work. I do not want to be a parent. I mean, hell, why would I? There's so much fun to be had while you're young." He does have a point. Twixters have all the privileges of grownups now but only some of the responsibilities. From the point of view of the twixters, upstairs in their childhood bedrooms, snuggled up under their Star Wars comforters, it can look all downhill.

If twixters are ever going to grow up, they need the means to do it--and they will have to want to. There are joys and satisfactions that come with assuming adult responsibility, though you won't see them on The Real World. To go to the movies or turn on the TV is to see a world where life ends at 30; these days, every movie is Logan's Run. There are few road maps in the popular culture--and to most twixters, this is the only culture--to get twixters where they need to go. If those who are 30 and older want the rest of the world to grow up, they'll have to show the twixters that it's worth their while. "I went to a Poster Children concert, and there were 40-year-olds still rocking," says Jennie Jiang. "It gave me hope."

--With reporting by Nadia Mustafa and Deirdre van Dyk/ New York, Kristin Kloberdanz/ Chicago and Marc Schultz/ Atlanta
Link, thanks to GR for loaning me his online TIME account.

Edit: Since this article is all about a shift in society I thought it should probably go here in N&P, but if any mods disagree, toss it wherever you see fit.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

-shrugs- I plan to live at home till I go to my 4 yr college, and then Ill live on a base. dunno bout anyone else.
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Post by Knife »

*shrug* A few random thoughts.

Not that all described in the article as Twixters should or could fall into the same category.

When some people are handed most things, a good upbringing, a free college education, hook ups to a good job, they really don't appreciate it. Some people don't grow up, because they don't have to. My brother is kind of the 'redneck' version of what I wrote above. I get told he's rebelling against what he feels is wrong in the world, I tell them back, that he rebels because he can afford to (or rather you afford him to).

That said, other times, some people realize they just don't want to be part of the 'grind'. The phrase 'I value my time as much as I value my money' comes to mind. Not everyone is willing to do the sacrifices required for the high paying, high stress, high profile jobs. It's not a matter of ambition, rather a different priority in life.

I also believe that with the massive gains in freedom, civil rights, and more or less an open society to a level we have never seen before, people are able to make choices they would never have been able to make in the past. The strict mold of highschool, college, work, marrage, children, death; just doesn't need to be followed anymore if you don't wanna. :P

So, for a Twixter; I see a good side and a bad side. Some will coast through life and be labeled one. Others will just want to live 'simple' lives and enjoy living instead of working the 'grind' and be labeled.
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by aerius »

Out of all my friends & acquaintances who are around my age (25) only 3 ended up with a steady decently paying job soon after finishing school. One went from an apprenticeship to doing construction work, another from police college to being a cop, and the last ended up working fulltime at the co-op job she was placed with in university. The rest of us have gone through several temporary jobs or contract work before being able to find steady fulltime work, and half of us are still looking for fulltime jobs.

In terms of getting started in the work world, I think it's getting harder, at least in my area of study which is computers & high tech. There's a huge shift towards contract work for entry jobs, and fulltime jobs tend to require years of prior job experience in the field. Meaning graduates get to live from contract to contract for a few years until they get enough experience to get hired on. It's not as bad in the business & commerce field from what I hear, but it's not easy to break into there either. Being hired straight out of university or college is getting kinda rare these days outside of specialized schools such as in our area, Sheridan College's animation program and Waterloo's Computer Engineering program.

None of us are married either (one guy was, but got divorced after about a year), but several of us plan to and would like to do so within the next few years. I've also noted that none of us are particularly anxious to start a family either, for us it's one of those "I'd like to sometime in the future" things.

Educationwise, all but 3 of us finished our programs in 4 years, and 2 or 3 years for the college guys. One person switched majors, another had a compulsory course cancelled on him, and I got hit by a car and had to withdraw for a year.

Overall it's a little of everything. I've talked to some of my friends and the general feeling is that even if we won the lottery or landed a guaranteed job that pays good coin, the most we'd do is move into a good house instead of living at home or living in cheap apartments or renting a room somewhere. We'd still take our time getting married and having kids.
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

A small anecdote on this issue.

My uncle bought his own car, paid his own insurance, and eventually moved out of his parents home because they fought, and he could reasonably pay his own way till he joined the Marines.

He asked me why I couldn't do the same, and all I had to point out was Car Insurance costs. It's become a lot harder to live on your own nowadays without that damned Uni Diploma...
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Post by Marksist »

Whats wrong with waiting to have kids and get married? I don't want to be married with children at 22. That's a year and a half from now, and I couldn't imagine that, and I don't really think that's a bad thing, especially if I get a graduate degree.

I can understand at least getting out on your own by mid to late twenties, but, I don't have some huge rush to get married and have children until after I'm done with school and have started on my career.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Personally, I think the current structure of society makes it more difficult for younger people to establish themselves than the older generations. I finally moved out of my parents place at twenty three, and I thought that later than I should have. My younger brothers had both moved out prior to myself. But since then I've found alot of friends the same age or even older still living with their parents. Kinda depressing actually.
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Post by Seggybop »

This article gives me hope for the future of American civilization. The more time people spend determining what they actually want to do with their lives, the fewer of them will ultimately be wasted.
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Post by Stofsk »

Marksist wrote:Whats wrong with waiting to have kids and get married? I don't want to be married with children at 22. That's a year and a half from now, and I couldn't imagine that, and I don't really think that's a bad thing, especially if I get a graduate degree.
Exactly. When my brother was my age, he had a wife, a child, a house, and mortgage, a shit job, and family issues. A second baby came, and things just fell apart. He didn't like his work, she cheated on him for someone with better/reliable money, and they (and us, for that matter, since we had to help him pick up the pieces) went through a catastophic divorce.

Though many issues contributed to the breakdown, their youth was one of them (not the ONLY one, but one of them). They just weren't ready, they weren't mature, and they weren't good parents.

I have no problem with waiting till a few years to get settled, get a good job, get responsible and get used to it, and then do all these 'super adult' things. At least I'll be ready, and haven't brought in two kids to this world who will grow up despising me thanks to shit that happened thanks to my slut of a wife. I'll take my '22, still lives at home, still a student, still single' life than the 'get up 6 am, deal with assholes all day, come home 6-7pm to bitching and moaning and bills' anyday.
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Post by Mayabird »

My parents didn't get married (for their first and only time) until they were in their thirties, and I came along afterwards. They even told me that it'd be better for me to wait to get married until I was older so I would be more mature and financially secure (and would've had time to go wander the world and be crazy) before settling down and having kids. So what? Why create an obnoxious term for it?
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Post by Rogue 9 »

I have two mutually exclusive realities related to this that I have to deal with.

1.) The author of the article is largely right; I am nowhere near ready for marriage and family and I don't even pretend for a moment to be near financially independent. I'm also an incurable, starry-eyed idealist.

2.) My dad wanted to throw me out at 18.

Damn, I'm screwed.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

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Post by Marksist »

1.) The author of the article is largely right; I am nowhere near ready for marriage and family and I don't even pretend for a moment to be near financially independent. I'm also an incurable, starry-eyed idealist.
I also think this article cites statistics from the past that show people "maturing" at a younger age, but, just because they did things like get married and start careers at a younger age then, doesn't mean they were actually ready for it back then.. just that it happened.
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Post by Dark Hellion »

I think that some of this can also be blamed on the shift of American parents grade expectations. My father was a B- to C+ student as were his friends. He is now a highly skilled machinist and some of his friends do things like computer science for Deere and testing for Ford.
I was a B to B+ student and I barely got into college except for my exceptionally high ACT score.
Now I did get a rather substantial scholarship for this, but it required me to maintain above a B+ average GPA, which is all well and good until you take classes that the professors describe as B- courses (it is a very hard to get a B+). This combined with Freshmen stupidity resulted in the loss of the scholarship. I am now a sophmore taking almost all junior and senior level courses. It is unreasonable to expect me to get a 4.0 in classes like this. But, I will know Quantum Mechanics and Linear Algebra. The kids who have 4.0s don't rememeber what their history or sociology blow off class tought them.
This effort to maintain an overly high GPA leads most students I have seen to take easy classes and easy schedules and results in students that have barely moved beyond Junior level courses by the time they graduate. Of course the cannot find lucrative jobs, they have the same skills as 10,000 other kids within 5 years of age as them. Of course they want to party, they got to do that all 4-6 years of school.
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Post by Edi »

While the article itself is interesting enough on its own, we had a similar discussion of almost exactly the same subject here.

Bottom line was iirc that the cost of establishing oneself (getting a place of your own etc) is so much higher than it used to be that it's a virtual impossibility for most people before they have been in the workforce for a pretty long time (and if you don't get a job, tough luck). Personal irresponsibility and/or failings are a contributory factor (exhibit A: me), as if lack of planning.

Higher education in and of itself is no guarantee of anything, and just as Dark Hellion inferred to above, having a fluff degree on some superficial subject that has fuck-all relevance to work skills is worthless. I don't know how it is in the US, but over here only about 7 to 10% of public sector jobs require a university degree, and the same is more or less true of the private sector unless we're talking about hard sciences where they like you to have degrees in chemistry, biology, physics, math or similar. If you've got 30+% of people coming out with college/university degrees (most of them in the arts/humanities instead of hard sciences), it's an employer's market and the rest of the people are fucked.

At the same time basic society infrastructure jobs go begging for workers because so few take vocational school where they can learn a skilled trade in two years and will never be short of work (stuff like infrastructure maintenance such as plumbing work etc is never going to disappear). Of course, if everybody does this, then there will be an overabundance of such people, and it's again employer's market where they can pick and choose. But the fact remains, there is always less room at the top of the pyramid than at the intermediate levels.

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Post by Stark »

I moved out at 19 because someone pointed out if I didn't, I never would. Its HORRIBLY LAME to live with your parents; you learn nothing. Even moving NEXT DOOR would be better. And plus, most of the shit I get up to would have my mum tut-tutting all the time; another reason I moved out.

But yeah, people who get given stuff suck. One of my friends moved out (because she thinks its cool) and got her dad to pay for the rent. I mean, really...
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Post by Edi »

Stark wrote:I moved out at 19 because someone pointed out if I didn't, I never would. Its HORRIBLY LAME to live with your parents; you learn nothing. Even moving NEXT DOOR would be better. And plus, most of the shit I get up to would have my mum tut-tutting all the time; another reason I moved out.

But yeah, people who get given stuff suck. One of my friends moved out (because she thinks its cool) and got her dad to pay for the rent. I mean, really...
Your capability to move out on your own is directly linked to the ability to get a job that can pay for your apartment (whether mortgage or rent), food and other necessities. If the cost of living is high and there are only shit jobs that don't pay enough available, moving out is not an option without financial support from parents. Especially if you want to study something that takes several years. It depends a lot on where you live and other factors.

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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

Stark wrote:I moved out at 19 because someone pointed out if I didn't, I never would. Its HORRIBLY LAME to live with your parents; you learn nothing. Even moving NEXT DOOR would be better. And plus, most of the shit I get up to would have my mum tut-tutting all the time; another reason I moved out.

But yeah, people who get given stuff suck. One of my friends moved out (because she thinks its cool) and got her dad to pay for the rent. I mean, really...
I ask you, what's so lame about living with your parents? I come from cultures that emphasize the extended family, so I might not have as much revulsion towards the idea as you do.

And when you're taking a degree in engineering, with future plans for medical school, do you really want to cut yourself off from parents who are willing to pay/loan you the money interest free?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Here in New Orleans, it's still not uncommon for two generations of the same family to still be sharing the same household, and sometimes three. That's been part of the local fabric for a very long time now; albeit less so than in the 19th century and in colonial times.

Part in parcel with this phenomenon has been how much more difficult it's been to get an independent start. In this town, it's been that way for twenty years now.
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Post by frigidmagi »

After my discharge, I had to moved back in the parents. I literially could not afford anything else and I had saved and invested a good part of my pay for 4 years.

Since then I've been running around, trying to

A: Convince a college to take me, I finially was able to get into ASU but it took over a year of going from college to college. (Let's not forget the time I spent dog fighting the admins to get my actual discharge documents, are they printed on fucking human skin or something?)

B: Get a job, any job. I've applyed at near triple digits and been hired... Once, has a fucking temp employee. I mean crap, I'd sweep floors with joy right now okay? But no joy for me.

I'm willing to bet that there are a couple of folks out there like me. I can seriously only hope that a college degree will help a little.
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Post by Joe »

From what I hear, this is an even bigger thing in many European countries. Italy, especially, where young men will live at home for a long time.
Last edited by Joe on 2005-01-26 10:44am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Iceberg »

Predatory student loan terms combined with a shitty job market don't help either. What good is an education if you can't keep yourself from going default on your student loans because you can't get a job that pays more than 600 dollars a month!?
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Post by Stofsk »

Joe wrote:From what I hear, this is an even bigger thing in many European countries. Italy, especially, where young men will live at home for a long time.
I remember distantly about young men in Japan who refuse to leave their rooms. Their mothers bring them food, and leave it at the door, and they take it and eat it, and they don't see each other for months/years. It was some 'special doco' thing on TV.

If true, then that's bizarre.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Iceberg wrote:Predatory student loan terms combined with a shitty job market don't help either. What good is an education if you can't keep yourself from going default on your student loans because you can't get a job that pays more than 600 dollars a month!?
predatory student loan terms? The US Department of Education is one of the most flexible and forgiving lenders around! The interest rates are absurdly below market rates and you have up to 20 years to pay them off! Fuck, if carry a single course after graduation you are allowed to defer payment! If you think that is bad, wait until you get a mortgage!
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Post by Mr Bean »

Iceberg wrote:Predatory student loan terms combined with a shitty job market don't help either. What good is an education if you can't keep yourself from going default on your student loans because you can't get a job that pays more than 600 dollars a month!?
Join the military! See Boot Camp! Get your schooling paid for!(But only so many classes per year so double the length of the degree your going for) Kill people!(Note Air-Force need not apply, Non MP/Medics/or Special OP Navy will also need not apply, Marines expect to kill two people per day) Get free heath care(Ooooh yeah)


The military is a great route for someone who wants to be establised by the time they are 22-23 and be half way to a collage degree to boot

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