Twixters: twenty-somethings who just won't grow up

[Seggybop]

And Mike, you really want young people training in engineering? Come on, stiff competition in the job market from younger people working for lesser pay is bad for you.

Heheh.... "In the news today, 90% of grads are now equipped with Engineering degrees. In a related story, the plethora of Engineers has pushed the field to $6.00 an hour on the average, and CEOs are eagerly looking to hire Art majors to redecorate their offices for $160,000.00 a year... "

Heeheeehee

Pfft. Not gonna happen. Engineering students can easily switch to an art major and breeze through, but the opposite can hardly be said about art students.

Really. That's something I'd like to see.

Liberal Arts, sure, but I'd expect most engineers to do as well at fine arts as most artists would as engineers.

[Col. Crackpot]

and there's just not a lot of money in being a merely 'good' artist.

Maybe everyone isn't interested in making lots of money.

it's not about making lots of money, it's about being able to support yourself and be a responsible adult.

If you can't or won't do math, be a plumber. Those guys make good money

plumbers make ridiculously stupid ammounts of money. Most people trades people do these days because many 'educated' people look down on the trades, and manual labor. But they are willing to pay through the nose for their services. $50, $100 $150 an hour. The sky's the limit.

[Darth Wong]

I love it when young people who have no kids say that money isn't important. Try telling yourself that when the bills from two kids and a stay-at-home mom start rolling in. Try telling yourself that if one of your kids needs dental work and your health plan doesn't cover it.

For you young people (Coyote, Marksist, et al), do you know why you have the luxury of believing that salary isn't important? That's because you have low expenses right now. It's way too fucking easy for someone with low expenses to say that some ethereal form of philosophical satisfaction is more important than a steady paycheque. But pile some responsibility on those shoulders of yours and then try selling that bullshit about how the healthy paycheque isn't important.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This is why scientists have it goooood.

It is also why I am dual majoring in biology and biochemistry, then going on to get a Ph. D in biology. Not only do I love the subject matter(And as a an aded bonus, it cant reject me ) but even if a Ph. D in Biology doesnt get me anywhere, a degree in Biochem sure as hell will. ANd the degree in Biochem will supplement my knowledge of biology, and how organisms work on a molecular level, which will help me in my research.

I cant loose. Sure, I will be in school until I am around 28 years old, and my mom is kicking me out when I earn my BS and BA(at the age of probably 23(The BA is in biochem, and the difference is a few math courses, calc 1 and 2 with analytic geometry, which I may end up taking anyway, and get a BS. Otherwise my caculus requirement for a biology degree meets my calculus requirement for a biochem degree)

But I can always work in the university labs and be a TA while I work through grad school. TAs get their tuition waived and get a stipend of 13 grand a year. which is enough to pay for one of the cheap near campus apartments that have utilities included....

[Melchior]

From what I hear, this is an even bigger thing in many European countries. Italy, especially, where young men will live at home for a long time.

True.
One of the reasons is the crazy prices of houses.
For example, my father's old house, in Florence, costed the equivalent of 250.000 $, and was 70 m^2 large.
Are also cultural reasons, too.

[Melchior]

From what I hear, this is an even bigger thing in many European countries. Italy, especially, where young men will live at home for a long time.

True.
One of the reasons is the crazy prices of houses.
For example, my father's old house, in Florence, costed the equivalent of 250.000 $, and was 70 m^2 large.
There are also cultural reasons, too.

It should read this way.

[Darth Wong]

Staying at home is not necessarily irresponsible; Asian countries have had so-called "multi-generational households" for a long time. But not getting a job or bouncing aimlessly from job to job and relationship to relationship ... that is refusing to grow up.

[Coyote]

Well, bear in mind I never said money wasn't important... but it can be inferred that it is not my primary objective by the courses I specialized in. Having a wife and family will be hard, if that happens for me. But like I said... I accept that difficulty as part of my choices. There's always a trade-off somewhere.

I accepted a long, long time ago in my adolescence that I was never going to be rich or even well-off-- I'd 'get by'. Presumably if I marry, it will be to someone who understands and accepts that as well.

It's not impossible to have a family as a teacher or an archivist or other researcher (the types of jobs that come with History degrees), it is just hard. But studying to be an Engineer does not mean 'easy life' either... you trade stresses over money for-- I presume-- hard work, long and expensive education, and you have to stay on top of the game 24-7. It depends on how you want to invest yourself.

[Guardsman Bass]

Well, bear in mind I never said money wasn't important... but it can be inferred that it is not my primary objective by the courses I specialized in. Having a wife and family will be hard, if that happens for me. But like I said... I accept that difficulty as part of my choices. There's always a trade-off somewhere.

I accepted a long, long time ago in my adolescence that I was never going to be rich or even well-off-- I'd 'get by'. Presumably if I marry, it will be to someone who understands and accepts that as well.

That's easy enough to say now, but what about when it REALLY happens? You may appreciate some extra doe for all those hidden expenses, in addition to the known ones. And that's especially true if your wife plans on staying home with the kids.

It's not impossible to have a family as a teacher or an archivist or other researcher (the types of jobs that come with History degrees), it is just hard. But studying to be an Engineer does not mean 'easy life' either... you trade stresses over money for-- I presume-- hard work, long and expensive education, and you have to stay on top of the game 24-7. It depends on how you want to invest yourself.

It's hard to be a middle class citizen if you are a new teacher and are the sole provider for a family, at least here in Utah (hence all the two income families).

[Captain Cyran]

Well, bear in mind I never said money wasn't important... but it can be inferred that it is not my primary objective by the courses I specialized in. Having a wife and family will be hard, if that happens for me. But like I said... I accept that difficulty as part of my choices. There's always a trade-off somewhere.

I accepted a long, long time ago in my adolescence that I was never going to be rich or even well-off-- I'd 'get by'. Presumably if I marry, it will be to someone who understands and accepts that as well.

That's easy enough to say now, but what about when it REALLY happens? You may appreciate some extra doe for all those hidden expenses, in addition to the known ones. And that's especially true if your wife plans on staying home with the kids.

It's not impossible to have a family as a teacher or an archivist or other researcher (the types of jobs that come with History degrees), it is just hard. But studying to be an Engineer does not mean 'easy life' either... you trade stresses over money for-- I presume-- hard work, long and expensive education, and you have to stay on top of the game 24-7. It depends on how you want to invest yourself.

It's hard to be a middle class citizen if you are a new teacher and are the sole provider for a family, at least here in Utah (hence all the two income families).

If I remember correctly however, in places like Utah, Arizona, and Colorado, things also cost two or three times what they do in New York, Pennsylvania, or Maryland. I know my sister who is in Colorado right now is always talking about not being able to afford a house because a house in New York that might go for $50,000 would go for ~$120,000. Of course, wages are higher there as well so that might cancel out.

[Marksist]

For you young people (Coyote, Marksist, et al), do you know why you have the luxury of believing that salary isn't important? That's because you have low expenses right now. It's way too fucking easy for someone with low expenses to say that some ethereal form of philosophical satisfaction is more important than a steady paycheque. But pile some responsibility on those shoulders of yours and then try selling that bullshit about how the healthy paycheque isn't important.

You are right, and I agree with you. I made my money comment because I'm a Music Education major, and I realize that I won't be very well off- as starting salary for teachers in Florida (I'm probably going to move) is around $25k. But, I'm content not being very well off, and I have come to the realization that things may become hard as a teacher when the situations that you mentioned arise.

I think that a total disregard for a steady paycheck is irresponsible, especially if you have a family. I made that comment more towards the end of low-paying proffesions, people that do it because they enjoy it, not because of making a lot of money. Sort of what Coyote already mentioned a few posts up.

[Col. Crackpot]

You are right, and I agree with you. I made my money comment because I'm a Music Education major, and I realize that I won't be very well off- as starting salary for teachers in Florida (I'm probably going to move) is around $25k. But, I'm content not being very well off, and I have come to the realization that things may become hard as a teacher when the situations that you mentioned arise.

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

[Captain Cyran]

You are right, and I agree with you. I made my money comment because I'm a Music Education major, and I realize that I won't be very well off- as starting salary for teachers in Florida (I'm probably going to move) is around $25k. But, I'm content not being very well off, and I have come to the realization that things may become hard as a teacher when the situations that you mentioned arise.

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

That's not too bad. I wouldn't want to raise a family on just that but by yourself you'd be living decently I'd imagine.

[Col. Crackpot]

You are right, and I agree with you. I made my money comment because I'm a Music Education major, and I realize that I won't be very well off- as starting salary for teachers in Florida (I'm probably going to move) is around $25k. But, I'm content not being very well off, and I have come to the realization that things may become hard as a teacher when the situations that you mentioned arise.

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

That's not too bad. I wouldn't want to raise a family on just that but by yourself you'd be living decently I'd imagine.

and thats just to start. All of the scholol departments are unionized up here. After a few years and a master's degree you can be over $50K

[Guardsman Bass]

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

That's not too bad. I wouldn't want to raise a family on just that but by yourself you'd be living decently I'd imagine.

and thats just to start. All of the scholol departments are unionized up here. After a few years and a master's degree you can be over $50K

You guys have it pretty nicely, then!

[Captain Cyran]

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

That's not too bad. I wouldn't want to raise a family on just that but by yourself you'd be living decently I'd imagine.

and thats just to start. All of the scholol departments are unionized up here. After a few years and a master's degree you can be over $50K

*quietly throws in an Education major into his college curriculum.* Bwahahaha!

[Coyote]

Most families I know are two-income. It would be wonderful if one parent or the other stays home but it is impractical for the most part. I hear what Guardsman Bass is saying about the extra money being handy but I've seen that no matter what tax or income bracket your in, there's always a need for that 'little extra'.

If I were to be a teacher I'd definitely have to leave Idaho, which is the lowest-paying of the States. But on the other hand, the cost of living in Boise is a fraction of what it is in the bigger cities, and the quality of life is wonderful (very clean, almost no violent crime).

Once again-- what is important and what are you willing to compromise on?

[Marksist]

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

I'm actually considering New York to be one of the places I move to when I graduate. Of all the places I've traveled, upstate New York, and Colorado were my favorite places.

[Captain Cyran]

First year teachers make over $30K in New York and most New England states. Specialized teachers often make even more.

I'm actually considering New York to be one of the places I move to when I graduate. Of all the places I've traveled, upstate New York, and Colorado were my favorite places.

No! Stay away from Western New York! I don't need the competition!

In all reality though, despite our politicians being fucktards Western New York is a very nice and generally safe place (as long as you're in the suburbs.) And Colorado is fucking beautiful... though as I've said before, eveything is bigger, including the bill.

[Jalinth]

I love it when young people who have no kids say that money isn't important. Try telling yourself that when the bills from two kids and a stay-at-home mom start rolling in. Try telling yourself that if one of your kids needs dental work and your health plan doesn't cover it.

For you young people (Coyote, Marksist, et al), do you know why you have the luxury of believing that salary isn't important? That's because you have low expenses right now. It's way too fucking easy for someone with low expenses to say that some ethereal form of philosophical satisfaction is more important than a steady paycheque. But pile some responsibility on those shoulders of yours and then try selling that bullshit about how the healthy paycheque isn't important.

For the first job or two, it is often reasonable to trade salary for experience. Get scrap by type money in exchange for experience.

And keeping low expenses isn't a bad thing - its called living within your means. Too many people in Canada and the US don't or can't. If you start off your adult life living within your means (as little non-essentially debt as possible, paying for the necessities instead of that Spring Break trip, etc...), it will carry over to your married life where your expenses are much higher.

I've seen too many cases where people earning very good sums are barely hanging on - they have some combination of too much - house, car, designer clothing, trips, etc... Should their income drop evenly slightly, they end up in a real bind. So I'm of the view that living within your means is a vital skill

[Darth Wong]

I love it when young people who have no kids say that money isn't important. Try telling yourself that when the bills from two kids and a stay-at-home mom start rolling in. Try telling yourself that if one of your kids needs dental work and your health plan doesn't cover it.

For you young people (Coyote, Marksist, et al), do you know why you have the luxury of believing that salary isn't important? That's because you have low expenses right now. It's way too fucking easy for someone with low expenses to say that some ethereal form of philosophical satisfaction is more important than a steady paycheque. But pile some responsibility on those shoulders of yours and then try selling that bullshit about how the healthy paycheque isn't important.

For the first job or two, it is often reasonable to trade salary for experience. Get scrap by type money in exchange for experience.

And keeping low expenses isn't a bad thing - its called living within your means. Too many people in Canada and the US don't or can't. If you start off your adult life living within your means (as little non-essentially debt as possible, paying for the necessities instead of that Spring Break trip, etc...), it will carry over to your married life where your expenses are much higher.

I've seen too many cases where people earning very good sums are barely hanging on - they have some combination of too much - house, car, designer clothing, trips, etc... Should their income drop evenly slightly, they end up in a real bind. So I'm of the view that living within your means is a vital skill

And if your kid needs $1500 of dental work, what do you do? Suck it up? Ignore it? Tell yourself that your philosophical happiness is more important than your child? What if your kid needs a special education therapist because he has a learning disability, and you have to pay $5000 a year for this? Is that a luxury too?

It's all too easy for young people to dismiss money concerns by caricaturing them as simple hedonism. Try living in the real world, with unexpected expenses cropping up and problems that you never could have anticipated as a teenager.

[Medic]

I love it when young people who have no kids say that money isn't important. Try telling yourself that when the bills from two kids and a stay-at-home mom start rolling in. Try telling yourself that if one of your kids needs dental work and your health plan doesn't cover it.

For you young people (Coyote, Marksist, et al), do you know why you have the luxury of believing that salary isn't important? That's because you have low expenses right now. It's way too fucking easy for someone with low expenses to say that some ethereal form of philosophical satisfaction is more important than a steady paycheque. But pile some responsibility on those shoulders of yours and then try selling that bullshit about how the healthy paycheque isn't important.

For the first job or two, it is often reasonable to trade salary for experience. Get scrap by type money in exchange for experience.

And keeping low expenses isn't a bad thing - its called living within your means. Too many people in Canada and the US don't or can't. If you start off your adult life living within your means (as little non-essentially debt as possible, paying for the necessities instead of that Spring Break trip, etc...), it will carry over to your married life where your expenses are much higher.

I've seen too many cases where people earning very good sums are barely hanging on - they have some combination of too much - house, car, designer clothing, trips, etc... Should their income drop evenly slightly, they end up in a real bind. So I'm of the view that living within your means is a vital skill

And if your kid needs $1500 of dental work, what do you do? Suck it up? Ignore it? Tell yourself that your philosophical happiness is more important than your child? What if your kid needs a special education therapist because he has a learning disability, and you have to pay $5000 a year for this? Is that a luxury too?

It's all too easy for young people to dismiss money concerns by caricaturing them as simple hedonism. Try living in the real world, with unexpected expenses cropping up and problems that you never could have anticipated as a teenager.

Working in a Tax Center certainly gives even a youngun like me some perspective. Not being on a tank for 7 months is worth it; I'm getting some (albeit) proxy life experience, crash course style.

"Living withing your means" can actually mean the mere act of living and providing for your family's basic needs. You know this right? My mother was there to be sure: a single parent who for 16 years raised 3 kids at once on what I've always interpreted (she never flat out told me something like her W-2) as decidedly low income. And AFAIK the alcoholic druggie of a father I never knew probably never payed anything for my childhood or 2 siblings from fucking Mexico.

Do NOT argue this point with a parent. And what the fuck about soldiers in the Armed Forces trying to support a spouse and children with enlisted pay? You have NO IDEA how many "unexpected expenses" can pop up unless they happen to you or like me, you deal with other people's miserable tax situations every fucking day.

[Zaia]

Once again-- what is important and what are you willing to compromise on?

That's exactly what it boils down to. The whole point of the article is that these twenty-somethings don't have to prioritize their kids' dental work or the Christmas budget over a weekend in Cancun because they aren't married and they don't have kids yet. So by making other things a priority, such as seeing the world while they still aren't tied down--are they (we?) being selfish? Because I don't think we are. I personally am not going to get married just because I think it's high time I should, so until I find someone that's a real match, I'm going to enjoy (while still paying my bills and whatnot) what financial freedom I have now. And if I can work doing something I enjoy while paying my bills and saving some of my income, does that make me irresponsible? I don't think it does.

Money is important, but at this stage of life before married life and after college, some things are more important (to some of us) than just having oodles of cash. Will that change as we get older, settle down and start families? Sure it will. But for now, if people are meeting ends by doing things they love, what's the harm?

[Darth Wong]

Money is important, but at this stage of life before married life and after college, some things are more important (to some of us) than just having oodles of cash. Will that change as we get older, settle down and start families? Sure it will. But for now, if people are meeting ends by doing things they love, what's the harm?

The harm is that it's worse for their kids when they finally do decide to have them. They've become so set in their Seinfeld-esque ways that they have a very hard time adjusting to parenthood, which is why so many older parents run right back to work as soon as they're able to. They literally can't handle being parents. Not to mention the other problems with being an older parent, like a larger generation gap, the fact that your own retirement is closer to the time when you need to lay out cash for your kids to go to college, etc.

[Coyote]

So by making other things a priority, such as seeing the world while they still aren't tied down--are they (we?) being selfish? Because I don't think we are. I personally am not going to get married just because I think it's high time I should, so until I find someone that's a real match, I'm going to enjoy (while still paying my bills and whatnot) what financial freedom I have now.

Especially the part about getting married just because "it's time". You don't just pencil that in your Day Planner. And I'd never be compatible with the type of girl that wants the "high life" of convertibles, yachts, furs and diamonds. She can go find a society boy to fawn on.

And if I can work doing something I enjoy while paying my bills and saving some of my income, does that make me irresponsible? I don't think it does.

As a result of this deployment, I now have almost no bills left to pay and I have saved up a "respectable" amount of money ($5-figures.00). Having a nearly bill-free existance, numerous investments, and a decent savings account is enough to put someone above the average when a majority of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck. But then maybe as a result of all this, I don't fit the stereotype of this "Twixter" demographic...

Money is important, but at this stage of life before married life and after college, some things are more important (to some of us) than just having oodles of cash. Will that change as we get older, settle down and start families? Sure it will. But for now, if people are meeting ends by doing things they love, what's the harm?

None whatsoever. I based part of my decisions on observing my parents. They scrimped and scraped and saved for decades and now, in their "golden years" of retirement instead of enjoying life they are too old and broken, health-wise, to "enjoy" anything beyond a glass of vodka before the TV. But then that's how they've always been-- the poor health choices they made in their youth confine them now (smoking, overweight). They have the money, that's not such a problem.

Part of my 'planning for the future' involves not just money and wise use of it, but maintaining my health and trying to maintain a good attitude towards life. I know that a 'good attitude' doesn't pay bills but my folks have the cash they need but are full of self-pity and unhappiness. It affects their quality of life, and I refuse to follow that path.

I've traveled the world and enjoyed the hell out of it while I am young enough to get the most from it. We can't all be engineers, doctors, lawyers. I certainly have the ambition and wherewithall (dignity?) to be more than a fry cook or a WalMart stocker, but no interest in pulling down a six-figure income in something I dislike just because the money is good.

Kids, I think, would be happier if the family is poor but the parents are there for them, provide as best they can, and pay attention and are respectful of the kids-- rather than parents who bust ass 16 hours a day, flood the kids with money but are never there to pick them up and hold them. I'm not saying this is the only option, and I'm certainly not saying this is the case with Mike... but it happens. Money don't buy love.