[BoredShirtless]

[BoredShirtless]

So because the results we see from Q can be reproduced on a smaller scale by Starfleet tech, means Q's tech is known? Right. So then, tell me how he empowered Riker? Created the baby? Etc.

How he empowered Riker? Jesus, he told his machine to accept his input.

Created the baby? Well golly gee, he porked the bitch and she 'ad 'im. I'm not an expert on Q sexual practices.

No it isn't.

Yes it is, as per Occam's Razor.

Dude, Ockham's razor favours innate powers; it's supported in the way they use their powers, fits with dialogue; it is the simplier theory. Just because we don't understand how their powers work, doesn't mean "well...the feds can more or less do all that on a smaller scale, it could be tech??!!" is a good idea. Where's your evidence? The muskets? Already explained, see long post.

The Q species is portrayed as a species having innate powers, aquired through natural evolution.

No, they're not. No discussion on evolution at all.

Yes there was. There is a TNG episode where someone was saying the Q species evolved and evolved until they start acquiring greater and greater powers; though they lost something along the way [sense of adventure? "Human spirit"? Can't remember.] I forget the episode name. More evidence supporting the innate power theory.

[Darth Wong]

So because the results we see from Q can be reproduced on a smaller scale by Starfleet tech, means Q's tech is known? Right. So then, tell me how he empowered Riker? Created the baby? Etc.

That's far more of a problem for the "innate trait" theory than the "technological apparatus" theory, dumb-ass. You can easily give someone access to a technological apparatus, but giving them one of your "innate traits"? That's tricky.

[Stofsk]

Dude, Ockham's razor favours innate powers; it's supported in the way they use their powers, fits with dialogue; it is the simplier theory.

Quit misrepresenting parsimony and address the equation. It's not the simpler theory. Saying "Q's powers are an unknown" is a worthless argument, and complicates the issue by essentially defying a solution.

Just because we don't understand how their powers work, doesn't mean "well...the feds can more or less do all that on a smaller scale, it could be tech??!!" is a good idea.

Why not, by your say so? Saying P=U is a lot stupider.

Where's your evidence? The muskets? Already explained, see long post.

Your explanation makes no sense. The Q were dressed in Civil War get-up and were attacking Q's mansion already, with weapons similar to what the Voyager crew ended up wielding. How you can say "The Voyager crew were somehow pretending to fight in the freaky Q continuum" with a straight face is funny.

Yes there was. There is a TNG episode where someone was saying the Q species evolved and evolved until they start acquiring greater and greater powers; though they lost something along the way [sense of adventure? "Human spirit"? Can't remember.] I forget the episode name. More evidence supporting the innate power theory.

That's not evidence. Quinn was referring to Q society, and using evolution in the general sense of the term. How do you 'evolve' new powers, exactly?

To your mind it's more rational to say "They evolved magical powers" than simply "they built 'em"? You're a very weird person.

[Beowulf]

So BS, are you next going to claim that god is a simpler explaination that evolution?

[BoredShirtless]

So BS, are you next going to claim that god is a simpler explaination that evolution?

No, and you're an idiot for thinking my argument goes in that direction.

[Ghost Rider]

So BS, are you next going to claim that god is a simpler explaination that evolution?

No, and you're an idiot for thinking my argument goes in that direction.

This is yours right?

Dude, Ockham's razor favours innate powers; it's supported in the way they use their powers, fits with dialogue; it is the simplier theory.

Let's see...change...creationism with innate powers. And BAM!

Thank you, come again.

[SirNitram]

You've plotted a trend. Congratulations. Pity the trend doesn't have Q in it. The Q species is not related to any of the species and/or examples above. You can't just chuck him in because he shows God like powers. Using your logic, I could extrapolate characteritics of a horse based on how an engine works because hey, they both produce power!

We eagerly await your evidence that Q defies the trend, then. Oh, wait, you have none.

Gods are revelaed to be sufficiently advanced beings that their technology = Magic. So in the face of this overwhelming evidence we're now going to say that the Q are the exception to this rule because....Q said so.

And what does the above evidence have to do with Q? You didn't come up with a rule; you plotted a trend. It's for you to prove that the Q species belongs in that trend. You are misleadingly stating he bucks it because "Q said so", which is crap. You gotta try fitting him in there, and from what I read below, you didn't.

So your evidence for Q not fitting in the trend...? Where is it...? Oh, right, no where.

Q, the trickster's word is going to be taken at face value...because...?

Right, he's a trickster, therefore he uses a lot of hyperbole. His mock trial for example; what a drama queen. Anyway, you can argue he flat out lied about being omnipotent, fine. But how does that support your tech theory? Has he ever talked about the origins of his powers, so that we can question what he said based on his lying/exaggerating nature?

Q And The Grey. Q use tech. Your evidence against, please...? Anytime today..?

Hell, the Q Civil War clearly shows high technology being used. The Continuum cloaks the use of this technology with holodecks that make the war representative of US Civil War era and cloaks the Q weapons as muskets but how the hell can you then ignore the Q weapons? If the Q have innate abilties they should be snapping their fingers at each other not using tools.

I love the wording of your question; talk about putting the horse before the cart! You ASSUME they used holodecks. Anyway, your answer:

I love trolls who think they can claim that something stated in the episode is an 'Assumption'.

Why should a guy murder someone with his fists, when he could use a gun? Would you claim the ability to murder isn't innate, just because he used the gun? We know that their powers have limits, therefore using tools to breach their own innate limits makes perfect sense.

Your proof the powers are innate being where?

Having said all that, it makes much more sense to assume Q bestowed powers to them; the muskets where not really muskets, and where more likely manifistations of a fight their minds just couldn't comprehend. Didn't Q say he is depicting the battle into a form they could understand?

Wow. Complete Outright Lie to twist 'I'm cloaking this in illusion' to 'This technology I explicitly stated as such is not really tech'. Again, we await the explanation for how you can 'give' innate powers.

Because you said this jackass: Most of the evidence points to innate, and I'm sorry, but your tech theory is very funny. Almost....desperate

Claiming that this creature has god like powers because he says so even though all his abilties can be replicated by a very logical extrapolation od 23rd century technology and a running theme throughout the fucking series is less desperate how?

Do you have ANY objective evidence? Any examples of tech? Subjective from people on the show? ALL subjective evidence supports innate powers. ALL objective supports innate powers. Your theory is utterly without evidence; it is based purely on examples from TOS, different species and logical extrapolation. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Your theory requires evidence to support it IMO.

Lie, lie, lie. All their feats are reproducable with FedTech scaled up, and they explicitly use tech in Q And The Grey. You are simply a lying troll who can't stop wanking off his flaccid, scabbed cock.

And seriously where is this mountain of evidence pointing to innate.

Clicking fingers? I don't see any tech.
Transporting around the joint? Don't see signs of tech.
Changing coustume?
Giving powers to others with a simple snap of the fingers?

I could go on and on. The evidence is overwhelming.

That is not evidence for innate powers. That is evidence that whatever the effect is, it is activated by a finger snap. The 'Clapper' is not magic, even though it turns on when I clap. But someone as stupid as you might not realize this.

Show me some abilties that cannot be explained away as technological.

why?

Refusal to actually engage in logical debate noted, troll.

Show me this obviously innate evidence. We've gone out of our way to bring up past episodes and examples and all we keep hearing from the other side is:

Q said so.

C'mon its obvious.

Starfleet would never make a mistake so they say he's omnipotent.

Q said so.

See above.

Your repeated lies, misdirections, and sodomization of logic are duly noted.

That's nice.

Lalalala I can't make logical deductions. Jesus Christ are you even TRYING to entertain a serious debate at this point?

I am. Once again who gives a shit if some other species used tech; Q isn't them, is he.

Still awaiting evidence it's innate. Dum de dum... Waiting for the troll to back his shit up... Waiting a long time...

[BoredShirtless]

You've plotted a trend. Congratulations. Pity the trend doesn't have Q in it. The Q species is not related to any of the species and/or examples above. You can't just chuck him in because he shows God like powers. Using your logic, I could extrapolate characteritics of a horse based on how an engine works because hey, they both produce power!

We eagerly await your evidence that Q defies the trend, then. Oh, wait, you have none.

Moron, it's the other way around; we await reasons why he should be included. You would put a horse in a table of mechanical engines, just because they both produce power? Say you come across an object. Before categorising it, you have to first examine it. We have examined Q. There are no signs of tech. There are signs for innate powers. Therefore, he does not belong in Stravo's tech trend.

Gods are revelaed to be sufficiently advanced beings that their technology = Magic. So in the face of this overwhelming evidence we're now going to say that the Q are the exception to this rule because....Q said so.

And what does the above evidence have to do with Q? You didn't come up with a rule; you plotted a trend. It's for you to prove that the Q species belongs in that trend. You are misleadingly stating he bucks it because "Q said so", which is crap. You gotta try fitting him in there, and from what I read below, you didn't.

So your evidence for Q not fitting in the trend...? Where is it...? Oh, right, no where.

See above.

Q, the trickster's word is going to be taken at face value...because...?

Right, he's a trickster, therefore he uses a lot of hyperbole. His mock trial for example; what a drama queen. Anyway, you can argue he flat out lied about being omnipotent, fine. But how does that support your tech theory? Has he ever talked about the origins of his powers, so that we can question what he said based on his lying/exaggerating nature?

Q And The Grey. Q use tech. Your evidence against, please...? Anytime today..?

Q did not use tech. Q said he was depicting the fight in a way which there minds could understand. Those weren't muskets. Q has given and taken powers away from humans before [Riker], so it is logical to assume he gave them powers when they got to the Continuim. That is a much better explaination then pulling tech from out of your ass; we've seen them bestow powers before, we have never seen tech before.

Hell, the Q Civil War clearly shows high technology being used. The Continuum cloaks the use of this technology with holodecks that make the war representative of US Civil War era and cloaks the Q weapons as muskets but how the hell can you then ignore the Q weapons? If the Q have innate abilties they should be snapping their fingers at each other not using tools.

I love the wording of your question; talk about putting the horse before the cart! You ASSUME they used holodecks. Anyway, your answer:

I love trolls who think they can claim that something stated in the episode is an 'Assumption'.

Holodecks was stated in the episode? Bullshit, show me the quote.

Why should a guy murder someone with his fists, when he could use a gun? Would you claim the ability to murder isn't innate, just because he used the gun? We know that their powers have limits, therefore using tools to breach their own innate limits makes perfect sense.

Your proof the powers are innate being where?

Everytime he uses them! When he clicks his fingers, the Enterprise gets tossed light years away. Or his outfit changes. Or whatever. It all looks very fucking innate to me.

Having said all that, it makes much more sense to assume Q bestowed powers to them; the muskets where not really muskets, and where more likely manifistations of a fight their minds just couldn't comprehend. Didn't Q say he is depicting the battle into a form they could understand?

Wow. Complete Outright Lie to twist 'I'm cloaking this in illusion' to 'This technology I explicitly stated as such is not really tech'. Again, we await the explanation for how you can 'give' innate powers.

I can't give you a good explaination. And neither can you for your theory. How did he give Q tech to Riker? How did he give him innate powers? Who knows, not enough info. Snap of the fingers, Riker has their powers. Snap, ship gets tossed. So much evidence supporting innate powers....NO evidence supporting tech.

Because you said this jackass: Most of the evidence points to innate, and I'm sorry, but your tech theory is very funny. Almost....desperate

Claiming that this creature has god like powers because he says so even though all his abilties can be replicated by a very logical extrapolation od 23rd century technology and a running theme throughout the fucking series is less desperate how?

Do you have ANY objective evidence? Any examples of tech? Subjective from people on the show? ALL subjective evidence supports innate powers. ALL objective supports innate powers. Your theory is utterly without evidence; it is based purely on examples from TOS, different species and logical extrapolation. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Your theory requires evidence to support it IMO.

Lie, lie, lie. All their feats are reproducable with FedTech scaled up, and they explicitly use tech in Q And The Grey. You are simply a lying troll who can't stop wanking off his flaccid, scabbed cock.

You're extrapolating that the Q are a juiced up version of the Federation based on results only. You blatanlty ignore method, and I don't blame you, because you have no evidence showing the methods are the same. Your theory sucks shit.

And seriously where is this mountain of evidence pointing to innate.

Clicking fingers? I don't see any tech.
Transporting around the joint? Don't see signs of tech.
Changing coustume?
Giving powers to others with a simple snap of the fingers?

I could go on and on. The evidence is overwhelming.

That is not evidence for innate powers. That is evidence that whatever the effect is, it is activated by a finger snap.

Right. And because we don't observe interaction with tech [clapping interacts with a mic], and using all the other evidence we have, the theory that he has innate powers carries more weight then the theory that he is activating tech. It's a shame you don't have a shred of evidence, isn't it?

Show me some abilties that cannot be explained away as technological.

why?

Refusal to actually engage in logical debate noted, troll.

Clown, "why?" is not refusing to debate, it's a question. What a dumbass.

[Darth Wong]

Your proof the powers are innate being where?

Everytime he uses them! When he clicks his fingers, the Enterprise gets tossed light years away. Or his outfit changes. Or whatever. It all looks very fucking innate to me.

Ah, appeal to personal opinion. Lovely proof.

Again, we await the explanation for how you can 'give' innate powers.

I can't give you a good explaination. And neither can you for your theory. How did he give Q tech to Riker?

Hey dumb-shit, you have a device somewhere that listens for mental commands from individuals. You simply tell it to start listening to this "Riker" guy and presto! He has Q powers. You tell it to stop, and presto! Those powers are gone. That also explains why they can take powers away from Q whenever they want, or make a Q helpless by sticking him in a block of ice (although this raises interesting questions about possible methods of defeating a Q if their apparatus can't hear thoughts through ice, unless this was some kind of special ice). It even explains why the Q majority couldn't just take away the powers of the dissidents during their civil war; the dissidents must have constructed independent devices.

Anyway, there's your explanation. I can't believe I actually had to spell it out for you, since all of this was already pretty much described earlier. And it competes with ... oh yeah, nothing even remotely resembling an explanation from you for your alternate bullshit non-theory (to say nothing of your hopeless abuse of Occam's Razor, which will never ever select an undefined theory over a defined one).

[SirNitram]

You've plotted a trend. Congratulations. Pity the trend doesn't have Q in it. The Q species is not related to any of the species and/or examples above. You can't just chuck him in because he shows God like powers. Using your logic, I could extrapolate characteritics of a horse based on how an engine works because hey, they both produce power!

We eagerly await your evidence that Q defies the trend, then. Oh, wait, you have none.

Moron, it's the other way around; we await reasons why he should be included. You would put a horse in a table of mechanical engines, just because they both produce power? Say you come across an object. Before categorising it, you have to first examine it. We have examined Q. There are no signs of tech. There are signs for innate powers. Therefore, he does not belong in Stravo's tech trend.

Snapping fingers does not and never has indicated magic. As the moderator of the Fantasy forum, I daresay I have vastly more experience in dealing with beings with complex and mysterious magical/psionic/supernatural powers. Snapping fingers is not under the 'Instantly magic' heading. You are a liar.

And what does the above evidence have to do with Q? You didn't come up with a rule; you plotted a trend. It's for you to prove that the Q species belongs in that trend. You are misleadingly stating he bucks it because "Q said so", which is crap. You gotta try fitting him in there, and from what I read below, you didn't.

So your evidence for Q not fitting in the trend...? Where is it...? Oh, right, no where.

See above.

I see you have no evidence then. Concession accepted.

Right, he's a trickster, therefore he uses a lot of hyperbole. His mock trial for example; what a drama queen. Anyway, you can argue he flat out lied about being omnipotent, fine. But how does that support your tech theory? Has he ever talked about the origins of his powers, so that we can question what he said based on his lying/exaggerating nature?

Q And The Grey. Q use tech. Your evidence against, please...? Anytime today..?

Q did not use tech. Q said he was depicting the fight in a way which there minds could understand. Those weren't muskets. Q has given and taken powers away from humans before [Riker], so it is logical to assume he gave them powers when they got to the Continuim. That is a much better explaination then pulling tech from out of your ass; we've seen them bestow powers before, we have never seen tech before.

Outright lies in regards to Q and the Grey. Fuck off and die, troll.

I love the wording of your question; talk about putting the horse before the cart! You ASSUME they used holodecks. Anyway, your answer:

I love trolls who think they can claim that something stated in the episode is an 'Assumption'.

Holodecks was stated in the episode? Bullshit, show me the quote.

He was displaying it in terms they could perceive. Display, dumbass. That would rather indicate illusion... Unless one is a lying troll like you who thinks that explicitly showing tools isn't showing tools.

Why should a guy murder someone with his fists, when he could use a gun? Would you claim the ability to murder isn't innate, just because he used the gun? We know that their powers have limits, therefore using tools to breach their own innate limits makes perfect sense.

Your proof the powers are innate being where?

Everytime he uses them! When he clicks his fingers, the Enterprise gets tossed light years away. Or his outfit changes. Or whatever. It all looks very fucking innate to me.

So you have no objective evidence. Very well, concession accepted.

Having said all that, it makes much more sense to assume Q bestowed powers to them; the muskets where not really muskets, and where more likely manifistations of a fight their minds just couldn't comprehend. Didn't Q say he is depicting the battle into a form they could understand?

Wow. Complete Outright Lie to twist 'I'm cloaking this in illusion' to 'This technology I explicitly stated as such is not really tech'. Again, we await the explanation for how you can 'give' innate powers.

I can't give you a good explaination.

So far correct...

And neither can you for your theory.

LIE LIE LIE.

How did he give Q tech to Riker? How did he give him innate powers? Who knows, not enough info. Snap of the fingers, Riker has their powers. Snap, ship gets tossed. So much evidence supporting innate powers....NO evidence supporting tech.

LIE LIE LIE. You can give access to the tech by telling the subspace satellites or whatever that this person(Marked by DNA or whatever) is now to be obeyed as a Q. How can you give innate powers? You can't.

Again. You have shown no evidence.

Do you have ANY objective evidence? Any examples of tech? Subjective from people on the show? ALL subjective evidence supports innate powers. ALL objective supports innate powers. Your theory is utterly without evidence; it is based purely on examples from TOS, different species and logical extrapolation. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Your theory requires evidence to support it IMO.

Lie, lie, lie. All their feats are reproducable with FedTech scaled up, and they explicitly use tech in Q And The Grey. You are simply a lying troll who can't stop wanking off his flaccid, scabbed cock.

You're extrapolating that the Q are a juiced up version of the Federation based on results only. You blatanlty ignore method, and I don't blame you, because you have no evidence showing the methods are the same. Your theory sucks shit.

Your case of projection is getting worse. I've shown my evidence from Q and The Grey. You have shown no evidence. Fuck off and stop lying, troll.

Clicking fingers? I don't see any tech.
Transporting around the joint? Don't see signs of tech.
Changing coustume?
Giving powers to others with a simple snap of the fingers?

I could go on and on. The evidence is overwhelming.

That is not evidence for innate powers. That is evidence that whatever the effect is, it is activated by a finger snap.

Right. And because we don't observe interaction with tech [clapping interacts with a mic], and using all the other evidence we have, the theory that he has innate powers carries more weight then the theory that he is activating tech. It's a shame you don't have a shred of evidence, isn't it?

You really should stop confusing our positions, you ignorant little troll. You are the one repeatedly asked for evidence, and the best you can do is 'IT LOOKS LIKE INNATE TO ME' without any objective reasoning. I, on the other hand, have an outright explicit tool-use example, and simple, logical explanations. Your lying about our positions bores me.

why?

Refusal to actually engage in logical debate noted, troll.

Clown, "why?" is not refusing to debate, it's a question. What a dumbass.

Troll, show some abilities that cannot be explained as technological. That is the only way to prove your laughable position in the face of the evidence presented. I realize you are just here to troll and thus ignore all evidence, but do try.

[BoredShirtless]

Moron, it's the other way around; we await reasons why he should be included. You would put a horse in a table of mechanical engines, just because they both produce power? Say you come across an object. Before categorizing it, you have to first examine it. We have examined Q. There are no signs of tech. There are signs for innate powers. Therefore, he does not belong in Stravo's tech trend.

Snapping fingers does not and never has indicated magic.

Producing results without evidence of using tech indicates magic, dumbass, not just snapping fingers, wiggling noses, or crossing arms and nodding heads. In another way, he belongs in the magic table not because there are already items in that table which use magic by snapping fingers, but because:

• We don't observe any tech; we see no issues which are associated with using tech. No power fluctuations, no breakdowns, no equipment; nothing.
• The way they use their powers is instant, seemingly effortless, and above all, supernatural. They just click their fingers, just like Samantha wiggling her nose in Bewitched.

If you don't see magic after all that, you're fucking blind.....or, you are arguing a stupid theory only because you're on the starwars side.

As the moderator of the Fantasy forum, I daresay I have vastly more experience in dealing with beings with complex and mysterious magical/psionic/supernatural powers.

I'm in awe.

Snapping fingers is not under the 'Instantly magic' heading. You are a liar.

Yes it is; Q's under it. See above.

I see you have no evidence then. Concession accepted.

I didn't offer any concession, dipshit. Everywhere we look, there is evidence of magic; there is no evidence of tech. You can try hiding your theory behind explainations on how it would all work using future Fed tech [Darth Wong's last post], but your sides unsupported explainations doesn't add much strength to your theory.

Q did not use tech. Q said he was depicting the fight in a way which there minds could understand. Those weren't muskets. Q has given and taken powers away from humans before [Riker], so it is logical to assume he gave them powers when they got to the Continuim. That is a much better explaination then pulling tech from out of your ass; we've seen them bestow powers before, we have never seen tech before.

Outright lies in regards to Q and the Grey. Fuck off and die, troll.

Lack of rebuttal and crying noted. Get some tissues, cry baby.

Holodecks was stated in the episode? Bullshit, show me the quote.

He was displaying it in terms they could perceive. Display, dumbass. That would rather indicate illusion... Unless one is a lying troll like you who thinks that explicitly showing tools isn't showing tools.

let me get this straight; just because he said the word "display", means he used a holodeck? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

Everytime he uses them! When he clicks his fingers, the Enterprise gets tossed light years away. Or his outfit changes. Or whatever. It all looks very fucking innate to me.

So you have no objective evidence. Very well, concession accepted.

That IS objective evidence, you moron.

Wow. Complete Outright Lie to twist 'I'm cloaking this in illusion' to 'This technology I explicitly stated as such is not really tech'. Again, we await the explanation for how you can 'give' innate powers.

I can't give you a good explaination.

So far correct...

And neither can you for your theory.

LIE LIE LIE.

How did he give Q tech to Riker? How did he give him innate powers? Who knows, not enough info. Snap of the fingers, Riker has their powers. Snap, ship gets tossed. So much evidence supporting innate powers....NO evidence supporting tech.

LIE LIE LIE. You can give access to the tech by telling the subspace satellites or whatever that this person(Marked by DNA or whatever) is now to be obeyed as a Q. How can you give innate powers? You can't.

Again. You have shown no evidence.

Do you know what a good explaination needs? Evidence. You have none, you're pulling things from your ass. Q Satellites? DNA? Stop wasting my time, dumbass.

You're extrapolating that the Q are a juiced up version of the Federation based on results only. You blatanlty ignore method, and I don't blame you, because you have no evidence showing the methods are the same. Your theory sucks shit.

Your case of projection is getting worse. I've shown my evidence from Q and The Grey. You have shown no evidence. Fuck off and stop lying, troll.

The evidence from Q and the Grey doesn't support tech. Grow a brain, dumbass.

Right. And because we don't observe interaction with tech [clapping interacts with a mic], and using all the other evidence we have, the theory that he has innate powers carries more weight then the theory that he is activating tech. It's a shame you don't have a shred of evidence, isn't it?

You really should stop confusing our positions, you ignorant little troll. You are the one repeatedly asked for evidence, and the best you can do is 'IT LOOKS LIKE INNATE TO ME' without any objective reasoning. I, on the other hand, have an outright explicit tool-use example, and simple, logical explanations. Your lying about our positions bores me.

Your interpretation of that episode is clearly wrong, I've shown that above and before. You also have to ignore all the rest of the evidence showing innate to accomodate your dumbass interpretation. Grow a brain, dumbass.

Clown, "why?" is not refusing to debate, it's a question. What a dumbass.

Troll, show some abilities that cannot be explained as technological. That is the only way to prove your laughable position in the face of the evidence presented. I realize you are just here to troll and thus ignore all evidence, but do try.

It's the other way around. Grow a brain, dumbass.

[Darth Wong]

It's the other way around. Grow a brain, dumbass.

Bullshit. You have no mechanism other than "magic" to explain your theory, so it cannot be regarded as a default assumption.

[SirNitram]

Moron, it's the other way around; we await reasons why he should be included. You would put a horse in a table of mechanical engines, just because they both produce power? Say you come across an object. Before categorizing it, you have to first examine it. We have examined Q. There are no signs of tech. There are signs for innate powers. Therefore, he does not belong in Stravo's tech trend.

Snapping fingers does not and never has indicated magic.

Producing results without evidence of using tech indicates magic, dumbass, not just snapping fingers, wiggling noses, or crossing arms and nodding heads. In another way, he belongs in the magic table not because there are already items in that table which use magic by snapping fingers, but because:

Ah, it's so cute when another blind idiot tries to tell me what makes something magic. By BullShitter here's definition, a Clapper you can't see is magic, and a sorcerer's wand is technology.

• We don't observe any tech; we see no issues which are associated with using tech. No power fluctuations, no breakdowns, no equipment; nothing.

Outright lie. We see flashes of light, we see Q who cannot use their powers, and we see equipment(Q and The Grey). Strike one.

[*]The way they use their powers is instant, seemingly effortless, and above all, supernatural. They just click their fingers, just like Samantha wiggling her nose in Bewitched. [/list]

Again, by this argument, me using a Clapper you can't see is Magic. I wish it were so easy to Willwork, but sadly, the rest of us here live in the 21st century. When you're ready to come through the Age Of Reason and catch up, do tell us, little troll.

If you don't see magic after all that, you're fucking blind.....or, you are arguing a stupid theory only because you're on the starwars side.

Or I know what magic and technology are in literature and film, actually comprehend logic and reason, and you can't stand these simple facts. Now we'll listen to your screamings throughout the rest of your post..

As the moderator of the Fantasy forum, I daresay I have vastly more experience in dealing with beings with complex and mysterious magical/psionic/supernatural powers.

I'm in awe.

Then no argument that I am a competent authority on the matter? Excellent!

Snapping fingers is not under the 'Instantly magic' heading. You are a liar.

Yes it is; Q's under it. See above.

'Yes it is!' is not a logical argument. No logical argument, means an automatic concession.

I see you have no evidence then. Concession accepted.

I didn't offer any concession, dipshit. Everywhere we look, there is evidence of magic; there is no evidence of tech. You can try hiding your theory behind explainations on how it would all work using future Fed tech [Darth Wong's last post], but your sides unsupported explainations doesn't add much strength to your theory.

Sorry, child, but the explanation works perfectly well. It clarifies the entire thing while obeying the basic principles of logic and reason, and within Parsimony. Yours relies on 10th century superstition(I didn't see no flint'n'steel! That little bitty of wood with a red bit is magic!).

I have explained the evidence of technology. You simply refuse that it exists. Your trollish behavior is so noted.

Q did not use tech. Q said he was depicting the fight in a way which there minds could understand. Those weren't muskets. Q has given and taken powers away from humans before [Riker], so it is logical to assume he gave them powers when they got to the Continuim. That is a much better explaination then pulling tech from out of your ass; we've seen them bestow powers before, we have never seen tech before.

Outright lies in regards to Q and the Grey. Fuck off and die, troll.

Lack of rebuttal and crying noted. Get some tissues, cry baby.

The rebuttal is inherent, child. You lied about Q and the Grey. Please do offer some way to reconcile your lies with it or stop chanting your stupidity.

Holodecks was stated in the episode? Bullshit, show me the quote.

He was displaying it in terms they could perceive. Display, dumbass. That would rather indicate illusion... Unless one is a lying troll like you who thinks that explicitly showing tools isn't showing tools.

let me get this straight; just because he said the word "display", means he used a holodeck? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

It means the simplest explanation is that it used illusion, you ignorant little jackass. And those of us not living in the Dark Ages understand that 'Simplest and most logical' equals 'best'.

Everytime he uses them! When he clicks his fingers, the Enterprise gets tossed light years away. Or his outfit changes. Or whatever. It all looks very fucking innate to me.

So you have no objective evidence. Very well, concession accepted.

That IS objective evidence, you moron.

You apparently have no idea what 'objective evidence' for a theory is. The Enterprise gets tossed light years; Q does this, but so does a Transwarp Conduit. By your pathetic mindset, both are magic.

I can't give you a good explaination.

So far correct...

And neither can you for your theory.

LIE LIE LIE.

How did he give Q tech to Riker? How did he give him innate powers? Who knows, not enough info. Snap of the fingers, Riker has their powers. Snap, ship gets tossed. So much evidence supporting innate powers....NO evidence supporting tech.

LIE LIE LIE. You can give access to the tech by telling the subspace satellites or whatever that this person(Marked by DNA or whatever) is now to be obeyed as a Q. How can you give innate powers? You can't.

Again. You have shown no evidence.

Do you know what a good explaination needs? Evidence. You have none, you're pulling things from your ass. Q Satellites? DNA? Stop wasting my time, dumbass.

Q technology has been shown in Q and The Grey. The limitations of it have also been shown and noted. Your evidence? Oh yes, none.

You're extrapolating that the Q are a juiced up version of the Federation based on results only. You blatanlty ignore method, and I don't blame you, because you have no evidence showing the methods are the same. Your theory sucks shit.

Your case of projection is getting worse. I've shown my evidence from Q and The Grey. You have shown no evidence. Fuck off and stop lying, troll.

The evidence from Q and the Grey doesn't support tech. Grow a brain, dumbass.

'No it doesn't!' is not a logical rebuttal. Are you going to actually try and debate, troll?

Right. And because we don't observe interaction with tech [clapping interacts with a mic], and using all the other evidence we have, the theory that he has innate powers carries more weight then the theory that he is activating tech. It's a shame you don't have a shred of evidence, isn't it?

You really should stop confusing our positions, you ignorant little troll. You are the one repeatedly asked for evidence, and the best you can do is 'IT LOOKS LIKE INNATE TO ME' without any objective reasoning. I, on the other hand, have an outright explicit tool-use example, and simple, logical explanations. Your lying about our positions bores me.

Your interpretation of that episode is clearly wrong, I've shown that above and before. You also have to ignore all the rest of the evidence showing innate to accomodate your dumbass interpretation. Grow a brain, dumbass.

You have shown nothing of the sort, child. You simply keep chanting 'IT LOOKS INNATE TO ME!!!!!' over and over like some shit-encrusted peasant.

Clown, "why?" is not refusing to debate, it's a question. What a dumbass.

Troll, show some abilities that cannot be explained as technological. That is the only way to prove your laughable position in the face of the evidence presented. I realize you are just here to troll and thus ignore all evidence, but do try.

It's the other way around. Grow a brain, dumbass.

'I am rubber and you are glue... Uh.. Uh.. DUMBASS! YEA!'

It's so laughable to have this debate after perusing writings on medieval superstition. BoredShirtless is a carbon copy of the peasants of the day, beleiving anything to be magic. A little metal pipe on wood that spits fire and death? A MAGIC WAND! A little bitty of wood you strike for a flame? WITCH, WITCH, BURN HER! A blacksmith's careful procedures to keep his shop clean? HE'S SHOOING AWAY EVIL SPIRITS!

[BoredShirtless]

Producing results without evidence of using tech indicates magic, dumbass, not just snapping fingers, wiggling noses, or crossing arms and nodding heads. In another way, he belongs in the magic table not because there are already items in that table which use magic by snapping fingers, but because:

Ah, it's so cute when another blind idiot tries to tell me what makes something magic. By BullShitter here's definition, a Clapper you can't see is magic, and a sorcerer's wand is technology.

No dumbass, I'm not arguing the actual tech has to be visible; I'm saying we have to see evidence of it. Dialogue. Issues relating to. Equipment. We don't see ANY of that. By my definition, a clapper I can't see isn't magic because I know we built them, I've seen them before, I've heard about them even before that; bucket loads of evidence showing they aren't magic.

• We don't observe any tech; we see no issues which are associated with using tech. No power fluctuations, no breakdowns, no equipment; nothing.

Outright lie. We see flashes of light, we see Q who cannot use their powers, and we see equipment(Q and The Grey). Strike one.

A flashing light? Waaayyyy to ambigous. It can belong to either theory.

Removing powers? Weak. It can be used in either theory. Removing your innate ability to move your arms doesn't prove the effect your arms creates is tech based.

Q stated the scenario was an illusion depicting the battle in a form the crew could comprehend; the muskets were not real, the equipment was not real, it was an ILLUSION. No signs of equipment.

[*]The way they use their powers is instant, seemingly effortless, and above all, supernatural. They just click their fingers, just like Samantha wiggling her nose in Bewitched. [/list]

Again, by this argument, me using a Clapper you can't see is Magic.

Wanking off to clappers again? When seperated from the first point, the argument above isn't valid. But when combined with the first, it is. But because you're a fucking retard, you don't understand that you can't dissect arguments at points which remove context.

I wish it were so easy to Willwork, but sadly, the rest of us here live in the 21st century. When you're ready to come through the Age Of Reason and catch up, do tell us, little troll.

Very witty. Idiot.

I didn't offer any concession, dipshit. Everywhere we look, there is evidence of magic; there is no evidence of tech. You can try hiding your theory behind explainations on how it would all work using future Fed tech [Darth Wong's last post], but your sides unsupported explainations doesn't add much strength to your theory.

Sorry, child, but the explanation works perfectly well. It clarifies the entire thing while obeying the basic principles of logic and reason, and within Parsimony. Yours relies on 10th century superstition(I didn't see no flint'n'steel! That little bitty of wood with a red bit is magic!).

Still can't tell the difference between asking to see EVIDENCE of tech and SEEING tech. BTW, it was an illusion. No real equipment. Refer to dialogue. They've given and taken powers before [Riker], it makes more sense that that's what they did to the crew when they got there.

I have explained the evidence of technology. You simply refuse that it exists. Your trollish behavior is so noted.

You have explained jack shit, you're an idiot, see above.

He was displaying it in terms they could perceive. Display, dumbass. That would rather indicate illusion... Unless one is a lying troll like you who thinks that explicitly showing tools isn't showing tools.

let me get this straight; just because he said the word "display", means he used a holodeck? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

It means the simplest explanation is that it used illusion, you ignorant little jackass. And those of us not living in the Dark Ages understand that 'Simplest and most logical' equals 'best'.

No fucking shit he used illusion; you said however it was stated that holodecks was used. So show me the quote.

That IS objective evidence, you moron.

You apparently have no idea what 'objective evidence' for a theory is. The Enterprise gets tossed light years; Q does this, but so does a Transwarp Conduit. By your pathetic mindset, both are magic.

No, because there is evidence of tech in a TWC. Your stupidity knows no bounds. Objective evidence is "producing results by clicking fingers", no evidence there of tech anywhere in any form in any way in any episode, an innate power is a better theory then tech which never gets mentioned or breaks down or shows up, just give it up for fucks sakes.

Do you know what a good explaination needs? Evidence. You have none, you're pulling things from your ass. Q Satellites? DNA? Stop wasting my time, dumbass.

Q technology has been shown in Q and The Grey. The limitations of it have also been shown and noted. Your evidence? Oh yes, none.

Q technology has NOT been shown in Q and The Grey. I'm tired of you repeating this bullshit over and over again; it was an ILLUSION, you DUMBASS!

[BoredShirtless]

Question: If the power of a Q is not innate but technological, why couldn't Quinn kill himself without help?

That is actually another justification for the technological interpretation, since his inability to kill himself without outside help implies that there is some force external to himself and beyond his control that is sustaining him.

And it can also imply that he just can't fucking kill himself. This is getting boring, why don't you show us some evidence for tech. All these implications and explainations are worth precisly DICK at the moment.

[General Zod]

Question: If the power of a Q is not innate but technological, why couldn't Quinn kill himself without help?

That is actually another justification for the technological interpretation, since his inability to kill himself without outside help implies that there is some force external to himself and beyond his control that is sustaining him.

And it can also imply that he just can't fucking kill himself. This is getting boring, why don't you show us some evidence for tech. All these implications and explainations are worth precisly DICK at the moment.

you mean tech like the weapons the Q were using during their civil war that they actually gave to the voyager crew? they did specifically say weapons, not power when they handed those muskets over.

[Darth Wong]

Question: If the power of a Q is not innate but technological, why couldn't Quinn kill himself without help?

That is actually another justification for the technological interpretation, since his inability to kill himself without outside help implies that there is some force external to himself and beyond his control that is sustaining him.

And it can also imply that he just can't fucking kill himself.

Why not? Oh yeah, you propose no explanations at all. How typical for a fucking troll.

[BoredShirtless]

That is actually another justification for the technological interpretation, since his inability to kill himself without outside help implies that there is some force external to himself and beyond his control that is sustaining him.

And it can also imply that he just can't fucking kill himself.

Why not? Oh yeah, you propose no explanations at all. How typical for a fucking troll.

Waving around an unsupported and ambigous explaination to match your lame unsupported theory; that'd be right.

[BoredShirtless]

That is actually another justification for the technological interpretation, since his inability to kill himself without outside help implies that there is some force external to himself and beyond his control that is sustaining him.

And it can also imply that he just can't fucking kill himself. This is getting boring, why don't you show us some evidence for tech. All these implications and explainations are worth precisly DICK at the moment.

you mean tech like the weapons the Q were using during their civil war that they actually gave to the voyager crew? they did specifically say weapons, not power when they handed those muskets over.

When Neo is in the Matrix, does he call a gun a gun, or does he call it an avatar of a gun? The evidence for an illusion comes from Q's mouth; so where's the evidence which shows the weapons are real bits of equipment?

[General Zod]

you mean tech like the weapons the Q were using during their civil war that they actually gave to the voyager crew? they did specifically say weapons, not power when they handed those muskets over.

When Neo is in the Matrix, does he call a gun a gun, or does he call it an avatar of a gun? The evidence for an illusion comes from Q's mouth; so where's the evidence which shows the weapons are real bits of equipment?[/quote]

Q has proven untrustworthy in the past. and if anything your matrix example provides more evidence for Qs powers being technologically based. the weaons inside the matrix might be illusory but they still require technological power sources.

[BoredShirtless]

you mean tech like the weapons the Q were using during their civil war that they actually gave to the voyager crew? they did specifically say weapons, not power when they handed those muskets over.

When Neo is in the Matrix, does he call a gun a gun, or does he call it an avatar of a gun? The evidence for an illusion comes from Q's mouth; so where's the evidence which shows the weapons are real bits of equipment?

Q has proven untrustworthy in the past.
[/quote]

Do you think he lied? What do you think it was then? Reality? A holodeck program? What?

and if anything your matrix example provides more evidence for Qs powers being technologically based. the weaons inside the matrix might be illusory but they still require technological power sources.

The Matrix IS tech; there's hours of evidence supporting that. We have NO evidence supporting tech for the Q, so no, you can't say Q illusions require technological power sources.

[General Zod]

Do you think he lied? What do you think it was then? Reality? A holodeck program? What?

the fact that the Q have not been shown to be as omnipotent as they claim seems to favor incredibly advanced technology. as mentioned before uber powerful beings using tech disguised as magic isn't without precedent.

The Matrix IS tech; there's hours of evidence supporting that. We have NO evidence supporting tech for the Q, so no, you can't say Q illusions require technological power sources.

i never said it was required. i said it was a favorable explanation. if their powers aren't technology based, then why were the Q all shown to be using actual weapons? why weren't they just snapping their fingers at each other? why were the other Q afraid when the voyager crew were pointing 'illusory' weapons at them? how can one omnipotent being strip another omnipotent being of its power completely? if the Qs power doesn't come from some type of technology, then why couldn't the Q simply snap their fingers to get back into the continuum like they normally do when the civil war started? why would they rely on voyager's 'primitive' systems to get back? further, how could voyager's systems be compatable at all to get them back if their powers were 'magic' as opposed to coming from an uber advanced technology?

[BoredShirtless]

Do you think he lied? What do you think it was then? Reality? A holodeck program? What?

the fact that the Q have not been shown to be as omnipotent as they claim seems to favor incredibly advanced technology.

So because Q exaggerated his powers [after all he's not a drama queen doesn't try impressing Picard half the time and has no ego], we can conclude....sorry, it seems to favor....that he's tech based? I see the connection! Really I do! Come on. Only in your dreams does exaggerating powers mean they're hooked up to tech. Do you understand that you have no evidence to support it? No OBJECTIVE evidence to connect the dots from exaggerating to tech? It's sooo lame dude, come on!

as mentioned before uber powerful beings using tech disguised as magic isn't without precedent.

Right; but they all fit in the trend after we get some evidence to use against them. We HAVE no evidence against the Q.

The Matrix IS tech; there's hours of evidence supporting that. We have NO evidence supporting tech for the Q, so no, you can't say Q illusions require technological power sources.

i never said it was required. i said it was a favorable explanation. if their powers aren't technology based, then why were the Q all shown to be using actual weapons?

It was an illusion for the millionth time, depicting a battle the crews minds couldn't understand as-is.

why weren't they just snapping their fingers at each other?

I don't know. What we do know is he said they were fighting in a way which the crew couldn't comprehend. That means they weren't just standing around in a room snapping fingers at each other. Anything else, we can only guess. I don't think the Q keep human forms up in the Continium; Q's child once got bannished from the Continuim and punishment was forcing him to remain in human form on Voyager. So when they aren't in human form, do they have fingers to snap? Does it even matter WHY they weren't snapping fingers at each other?

why were the other Q afraid when the voyager crew were pointing 'illusory' weapons at them?

Q has given and taken powers from humans before [Riker]. It is logical to assume that's what he did to the crew when they got to the Continuim.

how can one omnipotent being strip another omnipotent being of its power completely?

They aren't omnipotent, another Q said as much and they clearly have limits. The original Q was just trying to impress Picard.

if the Qs power doesn't come from some type of technology, then why couldn't the Q simply snap their fingers to get back into the continuum like they normally do when the civil war started?

Because the Continuims transporter was down? Because Q's already in the Continuim were combining power to block entry? How the fuck should I know!

why would they rely on voyager's 'primitive' systems to get back?

Why shouldn't they? They have powers, but it's limited.

further, how could voyager's systems be compatable at all to get them back if their powers were 'magic' as opposed to coming from an uber advanced technology?

Why is something innate incompatiable with tech? Is the use of my arm incompatible with a gun?

[Ghost Rider]

Let' just remind everyone of the love of BS, that he has yet to prove shit, and honestly is throwing arguments back at us.

1. Q's a drama queen thus uses much subjective hyperbole to increase his abilites in the eys of lesser being. To him this must mean that he has these abilites but is just exagerrating them the nth degree.

Except, that just the point that diphead isn't getting. When you claim to be all powerful...and a regular man can knock you on your ass by suprise hit. It's a bit more then exagerrating.

2. He claims no objective evidence of Technology: Refer to Q and the Grey. Lie #1

3. He ignores all precendence yet clings to innate abilites. Amazing since this is at heart his argument. He needs to use what YEC do to claim that because we surmise something different then him, come up with logical explaination they must be wrong because Q says otherwise.

The same Q he calls a drama queen.

4. He compares powers to his arms analogy more times then not. It's a nice strawman since the Q have never said they were mutilated because the loss of their powers.

So in the end his arguments is this in a nutshell.

Q is magical because I[/i] don't see any technological machinery.

[BoredShirtless]

Let' just remind everyone of the love of BS, that he has yet to prove shit, and honestly is throwing arguments back at us.

I hope this is good and not the same tired bullshit I've been answering for 3 pages.

1. Q's a drama queen thus uses much subjective hyperbole to increase his abilites in the eys of lesser being. To him this must mean that he has these abilites but is just exagerrating them the nth degree.

For fucks sakes! I told Zod that HE shouldn't use the flip side of that argument! I've been saying since day fucking ONE that the EVIDENCE points to innate! Where's your evidence of tech, GR?

Except, that just the point that diphead isn't getting. When you claim to be all powerful...and a regular man can knock you on your ass by suprise hit. It's a bit more then exagerrating.

Why does a non-omnipotent entity have to neccessarily have faster then human reflexes? Especially when it's in HUMAN FUCKING FORM! And how is THAT a plus for your DUMBASS TECH THEORY!!! Where's your evidence of tech, GR?

2. He claims no objective evidence of Technology: Refer to Q and the Grey. Lie #1

How may TIMES have I said it! Is was an ILLUSION! Q said he created it, THAT is objective evidence! Your idiotic interpretation of what you saw is SUBJECTIVE BULLCRAP! Those were NOT fucking muskets!

Depicting a fight they couldn't understand! It was an illusion! Nothing can be taken there at face value!
Depicting a fight they couldn't understand! It was an illusion! Nothing can be taken there at face value!
Depicting a fight they couldn't understand! It was an illusion! Nothing can be taken there at face value!
Depicting a fight they couldn't understand! It was an illusion! Nothing can be taken there at face value!
Depicting a fight they couldn't understand! It was an illusion! Nothing can be taken there at face value!

Where's your evidence of tech, GR?

3. He ignores all precendence yet clings to innate abilites.

Ask him what examples of unrelated species has to do with Q. Where's your evidence of tech, GR?

Amazing since this is at heart his argument. He needs to use what YEC do to claim that because we surmise something different then him, come up with logical explaination they must be wrong because Q says otherwise.

The problem is your explainations are FUCKING UNSUPPORTED!
NO dialogue!
NO issues relating to!
NO equipment!
NO breakdowns!
NOTHING! You're pulling shit from your bloody ass; it BURNS YOUR ASS that Q has powers which aren't connected to tech, doesn't it.

The same Q he calls a drama queen.

4. He compares powers to his arms analogy more times then not. It's a nice strawman since the Q have never said they were mutilated because the loss of their powers.

Again?

So in the end his arguments is this in a nutshell.

Q is magical because I[/i] don't see any technological machinery.

EXACTLY!!!!