Rome TW 1.2 patch is out now.

[Captain Cyran]

Just a question, can I get the best of both worlds and after I get my 1.2 on can I put the SPQR mod back on? I hope so... 1.2 is better than vanilla so far... but I really liked the SPQR mod.

[Stravo]

Played last night as the Selucids with the new patch. WOW. What a world of difference. The diplomacy alone is a amazingly robust. The Egyptians, normally a speed bump in my ascent as the juggernaut of the East became a true annoyance as they began blockading my ports, assaulting from all angles and chasing down any retreating units mercillessly.

The Parthians and Armenians, usually quiet as mice in the prepatch game allied with each other and tried to sieze Selucia while I was preouccpied with the stinking Egyptians. Backstabbing and very exciting. There was a few points in the game where I was in serious danger of losing it but managed to outfight them and am now in the process of taking the Egyptian home cities and have annhilated the Armenians and Parthians are down to that shitty terriroty up north.

Still it had to be the most exciting early Selucid (or any game save maybe the Carthiginians) that I have played. One small nit is that the diplomacy engine is alot more robust but sometimes doesn't make sense. The Greek Cities approached one of my cities, asked for a trade treaty, which I agreed to and then promptly layed siege to the same city. Seems a bit buggy to me. Its like the diplomacy engine is running on a seperate track than the militray AI. The same thing happened with the Armenians, they asked for trade rights and the very next turn besieged Hamas, the same city their diplomat approached.

Also on a cruel joy note, when a power is in trouble of losing they will beg to live. The Parthians are currently begging to be left alone. And the Egyptians approached me with the following "The Great Pharoh notes that ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US and demands you live as a Protectorate under his dominion." My reply was the seizure of Alexandria and putting her citizens to the sword.

Oh and rebels and brigands will actively attack your cities and hunt down small units trying to transit between cities as I learned to my chagrin when rushing some cavalry to help bolster Damascus.

I'm VERY happy with this patch.

[Ace Pace]

Just a question, can I get the best of both worlds and after I get my 1.2 on can I put the SPQR mod back on? I hope so... 1.2 is better than vanilla so far... but I really liked the SPQR mod.

No, too much stuff changed, rest assured i'll IM you the moment its out.

[Darth Wong]

Have they included a "military access" treaty option? Because whenever I crossed through Dacia on my way to stomp some Germans or Thracians the Senate was always bitching at me to get a military access treaty, but there was never an option to do so.

Put them in a boat and sail around.

[Stark]

Stravo thats great news: the 1.1 issue of everyone fighting to the death was frustrating. I'm glad my Seulucids won't have to march into bloody Russia to secure the northern borders now.

[Vympel]

This rules- they fixed the shoulder armour!

[Darth Wong]

I think this is honestly the best patch I've ever seen for any kind of strategy game. I remember how MOO2 1.3 came out and underwhelmed. I remember basically every C&C patch making almost no difference to gameplay. But this sucker fixes almost all of the serious complaints that I've ever had about the game, and it even adds cool new features (such as the background scenery during battles) that nobody was expecting. More than just a bugfix, it's a serious enhancement, particularly on the diplomatic side.

[Captain Cyran]

I think this is honestly the best patch I've ever seen for any kind of strategy game. I remember how MOO2 1.3 came out and underwhelmed. I remember basically every C&C patch making almost no difference to gameplay. But this sucker fixes almost all of the serious complaints that I've ever had about the game, and it even adds cool new features (such as the background scenery during battles) that nobody was expecting. More than just a bugfix, it's a serious enhancement, particularly on the diplomatic side.

You should've seen the look on my face the first time I got into a fight by the seaside with some ships nearby.

"Are those... holy fucking shit, that's the fleet!"

[Fire Fly]

I swear....the battle maps are different (not the backgrounds, which are super kickass). I mean, the terrain seems to be more representative of the actual ground where the battle takes place. In my old game as the Carthaginians, I had a battle right outside the gates of Rome and there were trees all over the place, hilly terrain, moutainous grounds behind me, and a giant plataeu of some sort.

A side note, it seems to be easier to get the scarface trait now, a little too easy if you ask me.

[HemlockGrey]

Damn, and of course my friend takes back his CDs right as the patch comes out. I'll have to go out give my friend $50 to buy it for me at the PX...

[Stravo]

Just came up for some air. The patch also seems to breathe new life into the factions. For instance, Greece is usually everyone's bitch pre-patch. Now they've knocked out Macedinia (NEVER happened before prepatch) and have just finished destryong the Thracians. Not only that, they've isolated the Brutii to Apolonia. They are a juggernaut again - well until the Great Armament of Selucia landed three grand armies.

In fact the Romans are kind of screwed in this game. The Scippi have only now - in late midgame seized Carthage and the Carthiginians are still going strong, holding onto what they have and not folding into a paper tiger like they've done in prepatch games. The Brutti have all but been shut out of Greece. The Julii are having good success up in Wetsern Europe but the Germans are HUGE up there.

Fanfuckingtastic. I can't wait to try this patch as the Romans. I didn;t think a measely 50 meg patch could make a huge gameplay difference but this is like a whole new game. Well, guess I can guess the rest of my late nights good bye for the foreseeable future.

[The Yosemite Bear]

kick's ass

[Companion Cube]

Damn, this patch rocks.

Campaignwise, i've been having some fun with the Scipii; while the Greeks have a pair of enormous full-stack armies in the north of their territory slaughtering the Brutii, i've decided to tweak their noses by taking Sparta.

[HemlockGrey]

Dammit! I'm suffering from Rome Withdrawal now. I suppose it would be illegal to download a CD crack until I can go buy the game...

[The Yosemite Bear]

I keep forgetting are you a dependant?

[Darth Wong]

Dammit! I'm suffering from Rome Withdrawal now. I suppose it would be illegal to download a CD crack until I can go buy the game...

NoCD cracks are only legal if you own the game. I use them for the sake of convenience even though I own the game, but there's no such crack at gamecopyworld.com yet (which is where I always check), so I had to bring the store-bought CD of storage.

$50 is not much money in the grand scheme of things. I've spent that much on a single gas tank fillup and car wash before.

[Vympel]

The only flaw I've discovered so far is "Scarface" is way too easy to get- and that's not much of a flaw. So sue me, I like sending my generals into battle against their generals whenever I can help it. It's glorious.

[Captain Cyran]

The only flaw I've discovered so far is "Scarface" is way too easy to get- and that's not much of a flaw. So sue me, I like sending my generals into battle against their generals whenever I can help it. It's glorious.

My Faction Heir got Scarred, that's actually his name. My immediate reaction "Scarface? Why is he... *sees ability* Oh... oh... wow..." Then another one of my generals got it like, 2 turns later.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The only flaw I've discovered so far is "Scarface" is way too easy to get- and that's not much of a flaw. So sue me, I like sending my generals into battle against their generals whenever I can help it. It's glorious.

My own current leader just got renamed from Decius the Mighty to Decius "Scarface," the +8 Hitpoints from Cruelly Scarred is very nice. My generals' units consistently rake in the most kills every battle... The last huge battle I was in with full armies on both sides, my general had 174 kills, the next best unit had only around 80 (and it was a Praetorian cohort, IIRC).

[Stravo]

Has anyone had issues regarding routing units? I swear my phalanxes are routing alot more often than they used to and my cavalry as well. I had one battle where I was easily holding my own against the Greek cities and suddenly four out of my six front line units simultaneously routes. We were about evenly macthed but my quality of pahalnxes was better (The one right below Silver shield) and he had mostly standard levy pikemen.

I send in my cavalry to flank the advancing Greek City phalanxes to try and stem the possibility of a swamping effect and soon the cavalry is routing. I had to use my general's rally ability to get my entire army to not run out on me. Granted this happened once (on this scale) but I notice a distinct difference in the way some units behave in terms of rouitng.

The AI is in some ways smarter but at other times I get weird strategies like when my 500 man army is facing 2 600 man Brutii armies and a piddly 30 man Brutii force. I know I'm in for it, when suddenly the first massive army starts sending in two units at a time to just stand there and throw pila into my front line phalanxes. My archers just pour it on like its target practice. The first two get slaughtered or route. In march two more into pila range and let loose, save now a cavalry unit is behind them.

They get decimated too but I see now that the cavalry unit is there as a guardian angel in case I send in my own cavalry. Smart, but utterly stupid when you outnumber me and send your army in piecemeal.

The third time my archers are running dry and the second huge army is almost upon us, so I just break my units into tight battle squares and wade into the first army.

The second large army then...waits. They stand there, the occasional cavary harassment to my rear but patiently wait for me to decimate his first horde and swing around quickly and take on his new horde. Frankly if he fell on me in a brawl while I was still precoccupied with the first horde I would have been slaughtereed especially with the first battle quickly spreading our armies out all over the damned countryside.

I wonder if the AI knows how to handle a large force, because his small unit tactic of the cavalry as overwatch against a cavalry charge while flinging pila into the front line units is pretty decent but sucks major ass when you have four hundred other men standing patiently out of range watching you get slaughtered by a rain of fire arrows.

Also, naval wise. I have yet to run into a fleet. I run into countless tiny flotillas that are blockading every port they can get to but no fleets like I constantly ran into pre patch. Prepatch it was always a pain because I tend to neglect my navy and end up playing catch up. Here, I rule the entire Mediterenean. I have tasked two small fleets to hunt down these errant port blockaders and sink them, thus clearing the med for me to use as my troop highway.

I mean there was no way in hell I could have brought a fleet from Antioch all the way to Tarentum without being attacked once in prepatch. In fact I would have to do it in legs. Fight my way to Rhodes, reinforce lost ships, then fight my way to Sparta, reinforce fleet then fight my way to taremtum, and sometimes not even then, I would have to return to Sparta or Corinth for a reinforcement once more before I could force a landing on Tarentum. Now it was easy sailing. I don't even see the roving stacks of fleets like I used to see prepatch. The Med used to be thick with fleets of all powers. Now its just Roman and Greek ships roving around in small one or two ship fleets.

BTW The diplomacy is just even more amazing as some powers are giving me tribute or the Julli are backstabbing the rest of the Romans by seeking a seperate peace with me as I gobble up the Italian heel of the boot.

[Darth Wong]

I send in my cavalry to flank the advancing Greek City phalanxes to try and stem the possibility of a swamping effect and soon the cavalry is routing. I had to use my general's rally ability to get my entire army to not run out on me. Granted this happened once (on this scale) but I notice a distinct difference in the way some units behave in terms of rouitng.

When you look at the lopsided kill ratios in a lot of real-life battles this routing behaviour seems fairly reasonable. It's a chain-reaction effect; if you see the unit next to yours running away, you will tend to start running away too because now you're exposed on the flank and you'll be pasted. So you run, and then the one next to you runs, and so on.

utterly stupid when you outnumber me and send your army in piecemeal.

I had the same thing; I had a full-stack Egyptian army attacking me at Cyrene just after I took the city, complete with a general (my army was led by a mere captain). I sallied forth from the side of the city and his army turned to face mine, but I had a small group of reinforcements approaching his left flank: one group of archers, two groups of Hastati, and one group of Equites. Utterly pitiful against a full-stack army, right? Well, not really as it turned out in this case. He sent just a couple of units of archers against my meager reinforcements, and the small group promptly charged them, killing them all. He then sent a unit of chariots against me, and after taking losses from my archers they plowed into my Hastati, losing most of their force and then routing. He then sent a couple of units of skirmishers, so I waited until they stopped to throw and then I ordered my Hastati to charge right into them, making them rout. At that point, the rest of his entire army began to flee. Simply amazing since my main sallying force has not even engaged and the bulk of his army (15 out of 20 units) was completely unharmed, sitting in nice clean formation on the battlefield. But they ran with their tails between their legs.

In the end, my city's force never did engage the attacking army at all, and I ended up driving away an attacking full-stack army by engaging with just one unit of light cavalry, one unit of archers, and two units of Hastati. I couldn't believe it.

BTW The diplomacy is just even more amazing as some powers are giving me tribute or the Julli are backstabbing the rest of the Romans by seeking a seperate peace with me as I gobble up the Italian heel of the boot.

It's still really hard to get someone to become a protectorate, though. I had the Macedonians down to their last city, and I besieged that city. I waited several turns. Their empire was gone. Their fleets were destroyed. Their city was besieged, its port blockaded. The garrison was depleted. The citizens were starving. A full-stack army of Scipii stood ready to annihilate them. And what did they do? When I lifted the siege in order to send in my diplomat, they still rejected my offer to become a protectorate! What the fuck do you need to do?

Of course, I resumed the siege and then exterminated most of their population after effortlessly taking the city.

[Stravo]

Has anyone ever managed making someone a Protectorate? Is that essentially a surrender in game terms or do they become allied to you as in Civ III when you reduce someone to a Protectorate.

[Darth Wong]

Has anyone ever managed making someone a Protectorate? Is that essentially a surrender in game terms or do they become allied to you as in Civ III when you reduce someone to a Protectorate.

In my current Scipii game, the Seleucids became a protectorate of the Egyptians rather than face destruction. They actually continued to expand westward into rebel-held territory after that, and they have been aggressively blockading my ports. They certainly continue to maintain their own military. So becoming a protectorate doesn't necessarily seem to neuter anyone.

Of course, now that I have crushed the Greek cities, the Seleucids will pay for their constant harassment. The Egyptians are going to get what's coming to them as well.

[Darth Wong]

Has anyone figured out what triggers the Marius reforms? It used to be your first Imperial Palace and Huge City, but that doesn't do it any more. It seems to be almost random; the first time the Marius reforms came up I promptly reloaded the savegame from just before that turn in order to see if anything peculiar was happening that might have triggered it. I couldn't find anything, so I hit "next turn" and ... the Marius reforms didn't happen! It ended up taking another 12 years before they happened, so perhaps there's just some roll of the dice that takes place every turn after the old trigger point, with steadily elevating odds until you eventually get it.

[Stravo]

Of course, now that I have crushed the Greek cities, the Seleucids will pay for their constant harassment. The Egyptians are going to get what's coming to them as well.

I get such joy from utterly devastating enemies that have been a constant thorn in my side. The Egyptians are one of those annoying powers that you just like annhilating.

Especially concerning backstabbing powers (Most recent example: the Armenians and Parthians who tried to seize Selucia while I'm locked in a death struggle with the Egyptians) sometimes I imagine myself striding into the palace of a fallen power as I take their last city and get ready to put these fuckers to the sword I ask them a simple question. "Was it worth it?"