Is the Dark Side really more powerful

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-07 12:26am

Something I've been wondering about. In AOTC Count Doku said he was more powerful than any Jedi. In the original trilogy we see Palpatine and Vader seemingly do stuff that Jedi can't like force lightening (although it's possible Jedi can do stuff like force choking and force lightening but choose not to because it would be an abuse of their powers). One Sith lord (Palpatine) was able to pull the wool over the eyes of the whole Jedi council. The EU continues this trend to the extreme (EU uberwank Palpatine, need I say more?).
So, are the Sith really more powerful than the Jedi? If so, does this mean that the Dark Side actually is stronger? Or maybe there are fewer Sith but they're more powerful, so the balance is maintained that way.
Any thoughts?

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2005-02-07 01:02am

George Lucas flip flops more than Kerry on this idea...

First, he said that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, just a lot easier. You need training and discipline to use the Light, but it won't destroy you like the Dark Side will.

Now, he says that the Dark Side is stronger, but the Light Side has plenty of perks that even the balance. Such as immortality of a sort. And not shriveling up into a prune every time you really have to stress your powers.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-02-07 02:02am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:George Lucas flip flops more than Kerry on this idea...

First, he said that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, just a lot easier. You need training and discipline to use the Light, but it won't destroy you like the Dark Side will.

Now, he says that the Dark Side is stronger, but the Light Side has plenty of perks that even the balance. Such as immortality of a sort. And not shriveling up into a prune every time you really have to stress your powers.

In other words, no, it isn´t stronger, just different.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-02-07 03:05am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:George Lucas flip flops more than Kerry on this idea...

First, he said that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, just a lot easier. You need training and discipline to use the Light, but it won't destroy you like the Dark Side will.

Now, he says that the Dark Side is stronger, but the Light Side has plenty of perks that even the balance. Such as immortality of a sort. And not shriveling up into a prune every time you really have to stress your powers.

Yes, but Yoda could have been afraid to tell Luke the truth, that the Dark Side really is stronger.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-02-07 03:08am

Mange the Swede wrote:
Xenophobe3691 wrote:George Lucas flip flops more than Kerry on this idea...

First, he said that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, just a lot easier. You need training and discipline to use the Light, but it won't destroy you like the Dark Side will.

Now, he says that the Dark Side is stronger, but the Light Side has plenty of perks that even the balance. Such as immortality of a sort. And not shriveling up into a prune every time you really have to stress your powers.
Yes, but Yoda could have been afraid to tell Luke the truth, that the Dark Side really is stronger.

Young fool... Only know, at the end, do you understand.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-02-07 06:32am

what I think that Dark Side is stronger, but not more powerfull. Meaning if raw power per se you must use the dark side, but a light side user can use that power against you by acting like a force mirror (like Yoda in AOTC)

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-02-07 07:08am

It is if Lord Poe is wielding it!

Caius · Post by **Caius** » 2005-02-07 07:27am

how I see it strength in the force is understanding it. you can master the light side but you've shut yourself off from the other half of the force. there is dark and light and if you at least know both I'd think you'd be stronger. This of course comes off the heels of finishing Labyrinth of Evil, where Dooku actually mentions something along similar lines.

Yoda and the others are only so strong because they blind themselves to the dark thus not seeing the force as a whole (which might be how Sidious manipulates them). I think he goes on to say you can master the darkside but not be totally controlled by it. It just has to do with the Jedi attempting it.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2005-02-07 08:11am

Caius wrote:how I see it strength in the force is understanding it. you can master the light side but you've shut yourself off from the other half of the force. there is dark and light and if you at least know both I'd think you'd be stronger. This of course comes off the heels of finishing Labyrinth of Evil, where Dooku actually mentions something along similar lines.

Yoda and the others are only so strong because they blind themselves to the dark thus not seeing the force as a whole (which might be how Sidious manipulates them). I think he goes on to say you can master the darkside but not be totally controlled by it. It just has to do with the Jedi attempting it.

Yoda uses both the dark side and the light side of the Force.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-02-07 09:04am

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Yoda uses both the dark side and the light side of the Force.

Really? 0_0 Is that mentioned in the prequel era books?

Warning! Minor, possible NJO spoiler!

Using both sides of the force? Sounds like Vergere's philosophy on the force. That you need only understand your anger, understand your frustration.

I wonder if the Jedi Order sort of reserves uber powers for the jedi council masters, like mastering both sides of the force? Well, that's probably another thread...

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-02-07 09:24am

I don't know where Vesa picked that up, but in the script for AOTC, Yoda said he must probe the Dark Side in order to learn what he should do. He closed himself off in mediation in order to do so.

I always preferred the "Creation/Destruction" mythos itself, as in the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side are both sides of the same coin, Creation and Destruction.

One should also note that Jacen appears to have been mistaken on several aspects of Vegere teachings, either that or she changes her tune for Luke Skywalker later on. The whole "There is no Dark Side" is bonkers, it just appears to retell everything we already know about the Force but make it seems like a revelation. So, Dark Side and Light Side is both Force energy, yeah, duh. You can use Dark Side powers as long as you don't have evil intent, kinda weird since Force Lightning was described as being generated by hate in the games. But check, thanks to AOTC and Count Dooku, where Force Lightning not equals to Sith Lord. Knowledge is important. No shit, Yoda said that in TESB,. what else?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-02-07 10:15am

The Jedi Creed sums this up nicely. There is only one Force. Light side/ Dark side its all about how you use the Force. Remember' fear, anger, aggression, and suffering lead to the dark side. By the same token when you are passive and at peace you are privy to the light side. An energy field obviously can't have an alignment. Even if you by into the Force being sentient and split into to aspects, should we expect them to be equal; most forces in nature have an opposite.

I'd say it comes down to the user. Force users very vastly in the degree of receptivity to the force; but you'd expect an evil force user to more readily pull out the stops, and thus appear more powerful.

It makes me wonder, we know that darksiders are consumed by the 'dark side' of the force. But, it’s like their mainlining the force, almost constantly. Who's to say that a "light side practioner that was drawing on as much force energy wouldn't look decrepit like Palpy. Remember that "flesh does not easily support this great power..."

So, maybe the light side appears weaker simply because, Jedi consciously hold themselves back.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-02-07 10:49am

PainRack wrote:You can use Dark Side powers as long as you don't have evil intent, kinda weird since Force Lightning was described as being generated by hate in the games. But check, thanks to AOTC and Count Dooku, where Force Lightning not equals to Sith Lord. Knowledge is important. No shit, Yoda said that in TESB,. what else?

Err, I don't understand. Dooku was a Sith Lord, and Yoda didn't generate the Force Lightning, he just manipulated it (redirected it). In the commentary Lucas specifically refers to Force Lightning as a 'Sith Power', so ...

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-02-07 12:11pm

As has been mentioned, Yoda may have claimed the darkside wasn't stronger, but that doesn't bode well with the knowledge that he was marooned on that swamp world because a Sith Lord defeated him.

If Yoda was a match for Sidious, it should have been him facing down Vader and later the Emperor. Instead he sent some half-trained farmboy with a head full of lies.

Atton was right...Jedi lie.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-02-07 12:31pm

Steven Snyder wrote:As has been mentioned, Yoda may have claimed the darkside wasn't stronger, but that doesn't bode well with the knowledge that he was marooned on that swamp world because a Sith Lord defeated him.

If Yoda was a match for Sidious, it should have been him facing down Vader and later the Emperor. Instead he sent some half-trained farmboy with a head full of lies.

Atton was right...Jedi lie.

Yoda's 'the Dark Side isn't stronger' quote can make sense if you remember that there might not be a difference in power of Light/Dark Side, but user.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-02-07 12:33pm

For what its worth GL plainly states in the Dooku confrontation scene in his commentary that the Darkside is stronger.

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2005-02-07 12:46pm

My opinion is no, the "Dark Side" is not stronger than the "Light Side." It's just that the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order during the Prequel Trilogy is too scared and/or stupid to use their full strength against Dark Jedi like Dooku. It also doesn't help that the fighting styles of Obi-Wan, even Dooku to a point, and especially Anakin left much to be desired. Anakin, if he had used his eyes, may have been able to beat Dooku in the lightsaber battle.

John Chris · Post by **John Chris** » 2005-02-07 03:42pm

In my opinion, the Dark Side and the Light Side are equally strong, like the yin-yang philosophy. It's just that the Dark Side is physically stronger, while the Light is harder to master, and thus will give you better experience so it balances. If I were a Master, I'd eschew the philosophy that a Force-user must be able to balance and even use both sides of the Force. It'd be controversial among the Jedi, and seen as stupid and weak by the Sith, but then they're the extremes, IMO. I'd probably consider myself a Shadow Knight with that philosophy in mind, which I like to use in my fanfics.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-02-07 05:38pm

Neither side has an advantage IMHO, it's all to do with the way you use it.

For example look at the Obi-Wan versus Maul fight. In pure terms of the battle Maul over powered Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. However Maul was only able to use his powers for brute force and was unable and untrained to handle it when, Obi used a passive power and leaped opening Maul up for the slice and dice.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-02-07 07:39pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Neither side has an advantage IMHO, it's all to do with the way you use it.

For example look at the Obi-Wan versus Maul fight. In pure terms of the battle Maul over powered Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. However Maul was only able to use his powers for brute force and was unable and untrained to handle it when, Obi used a passive power and leaped opening Maul up for the slice and dice.

You are actually using an example of a fight between two Jedi in a duel against one Sith? This was the same battle where the Sith fought off the Jedi for several minutes, kill the elder Jedi, and nearly kill the other one, only to fall because of a cruel twist of fate?

Use his powers for "brute force" you mean an elaborate series of attacks and parries to keep two attackers at bay while he moved into a more advantageous position?

Obi-Wan didn't use a 'passive power', he had only one chance, a longshot to quickly kill Maul and save himself.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2005-02-07 07:50pm

I doubt the dark side is stronger, at least not in it's normal state once Vader restored the balance. However the dark side is certainly more destructive and it is far easier to destroy than to create.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2005-02-07 07:54pm

What if you use an analogy that might work in the modern world:

Money/Resources = the Force.

You can use money in a number of different ways - to feed yourself and your family, to help the poor, to give people jobs, to provide for your further education, etc., These might fall under the definition of what we would call the Light Side.

On the Dark Side, you have things like, hiring hitmen, bribes, paying for answers to tests, paying people to do humiliating things, paying off corrupt officials, etc.

Money, by itself, is not good or bad, but how you use it is. In this analogy you cannot say that the Dark Side (of Money) is stronger; it's just a different way of using it.

What do you think?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-02-07 08:01pm

Bah, Darkside advocates action, to actively use the Force. While it seems that the Lightside advocates passive action, calm and cool to feel/see the resolution.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-02-08 07:05am

Crown wrote: Err, I don't understand. Dooku was a Sith Lord, and Yoda didn't generate the Force Lightning, he just manipulated it (redirected it). In the commentary Lucas specifically refers to Force Lightning as a 'Sith Power', so ...

It was with regards to Vegere saying Force Lightning is not "evil", which is a possible interpretation considering that when Dooku poured out Force Lightning, Anakin and Obiwan didn't immediately say 'Sithspawn!"

If Yoda was a match for Sidious, it should have been him facing down Vader and later the Emperor. Instead he sent some half-trained farmboy with a head full of lies.

Sons of suns. It may have been physically impossible for anyone else, but a Skywalker to defeat the Emperor hold on Vader. Obi-wan tried and failed, maybe only Skywalker can.

For what its worth GL plainly states in the Dooku confrontation scene in his commentary that the Darkside is stronger.

I thought that was in reference to that time period, where the Dark Side was in ascendence?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-02-08 07:13am

I still hold fast to Yoda's orginal statement to Luke.

Luke: Is the Dark Side stronger?

Yoda: No. Quicker, more seductive.

We know in AoTC and RoTS that Lucas is giving more thought that the reason for the Jedi being fooled and what not, beyond their absolute arrogance, is that the Dark Side is clouding them...which in turn could be a clear way of the Jedi just being arrogant to the nuances of the thing they claim mastery over.

In the OT though, it's pretty clear that the Dark and the Light are pretty much the same in power just one is far more physical while the other is much more passive.