Tolerance = dangerous word
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Tolerance = dangerous word
Wow.
Tolerance talk flares after cartoon flap
Thursday, February 3, 2005 Posted: 10:58 AM EST (1558 GMT)
NEW YORK (AP) -- Cartoon characters adored by kids seized the spotlight in the latest flare-up of America's culture wars, but the debate itself poses serious questions for adults involving the depiction of gays and lesbians in materials for teaching children about diversity and tolerance.
The liberal camp argues that even young children should learn that intolerance based on sexual identity is wrong, and that gays are as legitimate a part of the national mosaic as anyone else.
"It's about creating awareness and understanding of people who are different," said Joan Garry of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. "Why shouldn't that be a good thing for America's young people?"
The conservative camp has responded vehemently: By all means, teach children to respect other individuals, but do not cross the line and teach them that homosexuality is acceptable.
"Tolerance itself can be a very dangerous word," said the Rev. Terry Fox, a Southern Baptist pastor in Wichita, Kansas. "Tolerance gives the public schools an avenue to literally brainwash our kids that every lifestyle is OK."
Separate controversies in recent weeks have raised these issues:
Education Secretary Margaret Spellings' criticism of an episode of the Public Broadcasting Service children's series "Postcards from Buster," in which the animated bunny visits the children of two lesbian couples in Vermont. "Many parents would not want their young children exposed to the lifestyles portrayed in the episode," Spellings wrote to PBS.
An attack by some conservative leaders on a pro-diversity initiative of the We Are Family Foundation that features a video starring scores of cartoon characters, including SpongeBob SquarePants. The true agenda, said Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, "is to desensitize very young children to homosexual and bisexual behavior."
Some conservatives said last month's "No Name-Calling Week" in many middle schools was too focused on harassment of gays. In Massachusetts, the one state allowing gay marriage, conservatives say students are being indoctrinated to admire such marriages.
PBS and Buster the bunny
Dobson, bristling at mocking commentary about his reference to SpongeBob, has posted a lengthy explanation of his concerns on the Web site of his Colorado-based Christian ministry. The problem, he says, was not the video itself, but the We Are Family Foundation's use of a "tolerance pledge" mentioning sexual identity and its ties to other groups supporting gay rights.
Tolerance and diversity "are almost always buzzwords for homosexual advocacy," Dobson wrote. "Kids should not be taught that homosexuality is just another 'lifestyle' or that it is morally equivalent to heterosexuality."
Dobson and other conservatives were pleased when Spellings, soon after the SpongeBob flap, condemned the "Postcards from Buster" episode.
"For years, PBS has been slipping pro-homosexual messages into its programming," said Robert Knight of the Culture and Family Institute. "Along comes Secretary Spellings, who takes action as a servant of the people instead of a timid, go-along bureaucrat. Good for her."
After Spellings' statement, PBS said it would not distribute the episode to its 349 stations. Boston-based WGBH, the show's producer, is providing it directly to more than 20 fellow stations.
"We consider it the responsibility of public television to give children and parents the resources they need to understand the world they inhabit -- without excluding any segment of our society," WGBH said. "The major goal of 'Postcards from Buster' is to help kids understand the richness and complexity of American culture."
Family categories
Nancy Carlsson-Page, an education professor at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, has emphasized diversity awareness in a career spent training early-education teachers. She said Spellings was wrong to suggest that a certain category of family -- those headed by gays or lesbians -- be excluded from images shown to children.
"All children, whatever family composition they have, should see the full, diverse range of families," Carlsson-Page said. "Otherwise, when they encounter a different kind of family, they'll think that family is lesser, that it doesn't count."
Linda Hodge, president of the National PTA, said she strongly supports classroom initiatives promoting tolerance and combating bullying. However, she suggested some programs could backfire if they focus so explicitly on harassment of gays that those students feel singled out and labeled.
Hodge's bottom line: "Every child should feel safe and welcome in school."
For GLAAD's Joan Garry, a lesbian raising three children, the controversies hit home on a personal level.
"There are millions of kids living in households with two moms or two dads, and millions of other kids who know those kids," she said. "I wonder what James Dobson would say to my own children. What would be the respectful, Christian thing to say to them?"
Tolerance talk flares after cartoon flap
Thursday, February 3, 2005 Posted: 10:58 AM EST (1558 GMT)
NEW YORK (AP) -- Cartoon characters adored by kids seized the spotlight in the latest flare-up of America's culture wars, but the debate itself poses serious questions for adults involving the depiction of gays and lesbians in materials for teaching children about diversity and tolerance.
The liberal camp argues that even young children should learn that intolerance based on sexual identity is wrong, and that gays are as legitimate a part of the national mosaic as anyone else.
"It's about creating awareness and understanding of people who are different," said Joan Garry of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. "Why shouldn't that be a good thing for America's young people?"
The conservative camp has responded vehemently: By all means, teach children to respect other individuals, but do not cross the line and teach them that homosexuality is acceptable.
"Tolerance itself can be a very dangerous word," said the Rev. Terry Fox, a Southern Baptist pastor in Wichita, Kansas. "Tolerance gives the public schools an avenue to literally brainwash our kids that every lifestyle is OK."
Separate controversies in recent weeks have raised these issues:
Education Secretary Margaret Spellings' criticism of an episode of the Public Broadcasting Service children's series "Postcards from Buster," in which the animated bunny visits the children of two lesbian couples in Vermont. "Many parents would not want their young children exposed to the lifestyles portrayed in the episode," Spellings wrote to PBS.
An attack by some conservative leaders on a pro-diversity initiative of the We Are Family Foundation that features a video starring scores of cartoon characters, including SpongeBob SquarePants. The true agenda, said Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, "is to desensitize very young children to homosexual and bisexual behavior."
Some conservatives said last month's "No Name-Calling Week" in many middle schools was too focused on harassment of gays. In Massachusetts, the one state allowing gay marriage, conservatives say students are being indoctrinated to admire such marriages.
PBS and Buster the bunny
Dobson, bristling at mocking commentary about his reference to SpongeBob, has posted a lengthy explanation of his concerns on the Web site of his Colorado-based Christian ministry. The problem, he says, was not the video itself, but the We Are Family Foundation's use of a "tolerance pledge" mentioning sexual identity and its ties to other groups supporting gay rights.
Tolerance and diversity "are almost always buzzwords for homosexual advocacy," Dobson wrote. "Kids should not be taught that homosexuality is just another 'lifestyle' or that it is morally equivalent to heterosexuality."
Dobson and other conservatives were pleased when Spellings, soon after the SpongeBob flap, condemned the "Postcards from Buster" episode.
"For years, PBS has been slipping pro-homosexual messages into its programming," said Robert Knight of the Culture and Family Institute. "Along comes Secretary Spellings, who takes action as a servant of the people instead of a timid, go-along bureaucrat. Good for her."
After Spellings' statement, PBS said it would not distribute the episode to its 349 stations. Boston-based WGBH, the show's producer, is providing it directly to more than 20 fellow stations.
"We consider it the responsibility of public television to give children and parents the resources they need to understand the world they inhabit -- without excluding any segment of our society," WGBH said. "The major goal of 'Postcards from Buster' is to help kids understand the richness and complexity of American culture."
Family categories
Nancy Carlsson-Page, an education professor at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, has emphasized diversity awareness in a career spent training early-education teachers. She said Spellings was wrong to suggest that a certain category of family -- those headed by gays or lesbians -- be excluded from images shown to children.
"All children, whatever family composition they have, should see the full, diverse range of families," Carlsson-Page said. "Otherwise, when they encounter a different kind of family, they'll think that family is lesser, that it doesn't count."
Linda Hodge, president of the National PTA, said she strongly supports classroom initiatives promoting tolerance and combating bullying. However, she suggested some programs could backfire if they focus so explicitly on harassment of gays that those students feel singled out and labeled.
Hodge's bottom line: "Every child should feel safe and welcome in school."
For GLAAD's Joan Garry, a lesbian raising three children, the controversies hit home on a personal level.
"There are millions of kids living in households with two moms or two dads, and millions of other kids who know those kids," she said. "I wonder what James Dobson would say to my own children. What would be the respectful, Christian thing to say to them?"
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Re: Tolerance = dangerous word
Isn't that what these religious fanatics are doing?"Tolerance itself can be a very dangerous word," said the Rev. Terry Fox, a Southern Baptist pastor in Wichita, Kansas. "Tolerance gives the public schools an avenue to literally brainwash our kids that every lifestyle is OK."
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Heh. I'm REALLY glad that none of my relatives are slavering fundies. Especially not the relatively close-by ones...there's no way in hell I could keep my mouth shut and, well, there'd be a /blast radius/.
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I would burn them, and depending on how bad the aunt is, send the ashes with a note back to her.Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Everytime I hear James Dobson speak, I find it hard to resist the urge to burn every damn book of his in the house. Unfortunately, we keep getting Dobson books from our aunt who's a fundie.
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One of Rebecca's fundie uncles once sent some religious tracts to me in the mail. I cut them up into small pieces and mailed the pieces back to him. He never did that again.Admiral Valdemar wrote:I would burn them, and depending on how bad the aunt is, send the ashes with a note back to her.Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Everytime I hear James Dobson speak, I find it hard to resist the urge to burn every damn book of his in the house. Unfortunately, we keep getting Dobson books from our aunt who's a fundie.
EDIT: interestingly enough, the tracts themselves were about the need for Christians to forgive child killers despite our innate revulsion at such people. He sent this to me because I once expressed the view that such people should be executed.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2005-02-06 12:17pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Now you have to cut them up into words so that they can form insulting messages.Admiral Valdemar wrote:And that, my friends, is how one deals with idiot relations.
WE, however, do meddle in the affairs of others.
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I'd personally respond to the fundies by showing George Carlin's "7 Words You Can't Say on TV." But that shows why I'm not in the position to do that. Not a whole lot of tact.
The strange thing is that the fundies would find my father's attitudes, appalling. He's not a fundie himself, but for most issues, he's about as conservative as they come (he listens to Sean Hannity, 'nuff said). Regarding a friend of mine who is homosexual, he said, "I don't approve of the lifestyle, but if she were to get married, I'd attend the ceremony if I were invited." Basically, though he doesn't agree with what she does with her life, he's willing to look past that because she's a nice person.
Fundies might be even more appalled by that attitude than by the people who want to legalize gay marriage. Not only would this constitute what they would call "permissiveness," but it would in their eyes be treasonous to their cause, since for other issues he might agree with them.
The strange thing is that the fundies would find my father's attitudes, appalling. He's not a fundie himself, but for most issues, he's about as conservative as they come (he listens to Sean Hannity, 'nuff said). Regarding a friend of mine who is homosexual, he said, "I don't approve of the lifestyle, but if she were to get married, I'd attend the ceremony if I were invited." Basically, though he doesn't agree with what she does with her life, he's willing to look past that because she's a nice person.
Fundies might be even more appalled by that attitude than by the people who want to legalize gay marriage. Not only would this constitute what they would call "permissiveness," but it would in their eyes be treasonous to their cause, since for other issues he might agree with them.
Homosexuality was normal in Ancient Greek culture (especially between a young boy and an old man), and it also happens in other animals as well. If they have a problem with homosexuality, the Christians can teach their children what they want, but the rest of the world shouldn't have to agree with them because they're not Christians. The morals involving homosexuality can be from religious context, so if Dobson were to say, "Kids should not be taught that homosexuality is just another 'lifestyle' or that it is morally equivalent to heterosexuality." it's his morals, and his religion, but if he were to force it upon other people, then he is no different from those fundamentalists, shoving religion down other people's throats. But that's not new now, is that?
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That isn't the problem. The real problem is that it is so politically incorrect to tell them exactly what you think of their bullshit, because religion is a sacred cow in American society. So even when a preacher says something incredibly hateful, the most that any "reasonable" person is supposed to say is that they should agree to politely disagree. The reasonable person is not allowed to insult this fanatic, or call him a fanatic, or criticize his beliefs.Admiral Valdemar wrote:Thing is, these guys are preachers for a reason. And it isn't just their congregation they preach to anymore.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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I'd have to say that the protection afforded by religion extends beyond the US borders. While fundamentalism isn't as prevalent outside the southern US states, it still exists and religion for the most part is still something many can't critique because of the large audience it has. Though secular thoughts have more power than in the past.
The whole Pope comment not long ago in Poland is a good example of supposed higher authority for religious figures in public.
The whole Pope comment not long ago in Poland is a good example of supposed higher authority for religious figures in public.
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I love how its state brainwashing when the schools don't assist the Churches in propogating their venom.
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There's not a lot I can add here that has not already been mentioned, however I would like to add a small little something that South Park (glory!) mentioned which I think is actually rather interesting. "Tolerance" seems kind of a ... strained word, doesn't it? Oh well, first step tolerance, second step acceptance, apparently.
And this preacher's a total dick. I'll intentionally avoid the term "reverend" as it has tinges of actually being reverential when used as a title. hmm... I think Fuckwad Terry Fox sounds better, anyways.
Oh, and Fuckwad's good for Dobson too.
And this preacher's a total dick. I'll intentionally avoid the term "reverend" as it has tinges of actually being reverential when used as a title. hmm... I think Fuckwad Terry Fox sounds better, anyways.
Oh, and Fuckwad's good for Dobson too.
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Priest. Just say 'priest.' While it's broadly accurate, it's a nice slap in the face at the same time. Like 'Hey, American' or 'Hey, white boy.'
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On this topic, just yesterday it was in our main news that a faction of the Lutheran Church that refuses to recognize female priests had to bring in a Lutheran bishop from Africa to ordain their bigots into the priesthood. This happened in Sweden, but some of the ordained assholes were Finns, and they were talking about how they face intolerance everywhere and they are being repressed etc etc, the usual bullshit about how everybody should just tolerate them being intolerant assholes and whatnot, and how they are going to do the same thing here, bring bigots from elsewhere so they can get their way.
Fortunately religion isn't quite that much of a sacred cow here, these idiots have been catching a lot of flak, and will continue to do so. I hope the church kicks them out, it's been near to that point once already. My experience with priests has generally been a positive one, as the ones I dealt with during confirmation and the stuff prior to that were realy nice people and the rest have mainly been either family friends or people my dad works with whom he has invited to our place (and the idiots would never get invited, as he happens to hate them).
Edi
Fortunately religion isn't quite that much of a sacred cow here, these idiots have been catching a lot of flak, and will continue to do so. I hope the church kicks them out, it's been near to that point once already. My experience with priests has generally been a positive one, as the ones I dealt with during confirmation and the stuff prior to that were realy nice people and the rest have mainly been either family friends or people my dad works with whom he has invited to our place (and the idiots would never get invited, as he happens to hate them).
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Admiral Valdemar wrote:I would burn them, and depending on how bad the aunt is, send the ashes with a note back to her.Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Everytime I hear James Dobson speak, I find it hard to resist the urge to burn every damn book of his in the house. Unfortunately, we keep getting Dobson books from our aunt who's a fundie.
I would. Trust me. I would gladly burn them if they were mine. The problem is they weren't addressed to me. They were addressed to the other members of my family, specifically my brother and my mom. So, technically, it's theirs and I really shouldn't burn items that belong to other people. But everytime I see those books sitting on the bookshelf, I just cringe.
Godless, it's so annoying, change the stuff in that article for christian stuff and watch the same people cry foul. Stupid, blind, bigoted idiots trying to attack what it's popular to attack in christianity. This wouldn't have even happened a century or so ago, when it was popular to attack masturbation, rather than homosexuals.
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And the program is not even "promoting" homosexuality. It is trying to head off discrimination by simply recognizing that different people exist and as kids grow up they may meet some of these people, and it is nothing to be worried about.
Do you think they'd make the same fuss if the couples portrayed were inter-racial? Blacks and whites together in loving relationships? Or different religions?
Do you think they'd make the same fuss if the couples portrayed were inter-racial? Blacks and whites together in loving relationships? Or different religions?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Fifty years ago, yes.Coyote wrote: Do you think they'd make the same fuss if the couples portrayed were inter-racial? Blacks and whites together in loving relationships? Or different religions?
But don't tell them that, they'll say that you can't compare the two, or that the same sort of people who were against it back then didn't have the same ideals as them.
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