Klingons with X-Wings

[wautd]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

but remember you're replacing the majority of Klingon capital ship strength with far smaller craft,

woah i didnt say anythign from replacing. I just said they can build them for the same cost as a relatively cheap BoP

[wautd]

... so they can use them as an addition. They still can have BoP's and other capital ships

[brianeyci]

woah i didnt say anythign from replacing. I just said they can build them for the same cost as a relatively cheap BoP

No you said BOP costs as much as an X-Wing. Some BOP are capital ships.

Brian

[wautd]

woah i didnt say anythign from replacing. I just said they can build them for the same cost as a relatively cheap BoP

No you said BOP costs as much as an X-Wing.

what did I just said?

[brianeyci]

woah i didnt say anythign from replacing. I just said they can build them for the same cost as a relatively cheap BoP

No you said BOP costs as much as an X-Wing.

what did I just said?

You moved the goalposts friend.

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings (- proton torps) at the same cost of a Bird of Prey.

I don't see relatively cheap anywhere in there. You said that X-Wings cost the same as BOP, some BOP are capital ships.

Until you close this loophole, I'm going to keep using it.

Honestly, why not read up on a few things before you open your op? A quick read on the capabilities and sizes of BOP would have shown you that some BOP are capital ships.

Brian

[Kamakazie Sith]

Klingons already fly around in swarms of Bird of Prey. Larger vessels are rarer than Bird of Prey, I don't know the exact numbers (who does), but if we take Kruge's "twenty-to-one" comment, perhaps Bird of Prey outnumber larger Negh'vars and K'vorts by twenty to one.

Are you talking about the comment from STIII? If you are, Kruge was strictly talking about the Big Es firepower advantage over his ship.

[wautd]

No you said BOP costs as much as an X-Wing.

what did I just said?

You moved the goalposts friend.

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings (- proton torps) at the same cost of a Bird of Prey.

I don't see relatively cheap anywhere in there. You said that X-Wings cost the same as BOP, some BOP are capital ships.

Until you close this loophole, I'm going to keep using it.

Honestly, why not read up on a few things before you open your op? A quick read on the capabilities and sizes of BOP would have shown you that some BOP are capital ships.

Brian

I wasnt aware that there are 2 kinds of BoP's. Whatever class it is, I meant the ones we saw in Generations and in at least 3 TOS movies. What are they? Frigates at most i guess.

[YT300000]

The problem with BoP's is, no one really knows their size. The smallest we've seen was in Star Trek IV, which at the end with the bridge sticking out of the water was scaled to about 150 metres in length (which would make the cargo bay for the whales ludicrously big for a ship that size). The biggest size is also from TVH, when the BoP was hovering over the whaler's ship. I haven't scaled it, or seen figures for it, but its titanic, and probably well over half a klick in that shot. IIRC, in STIII the length was about 250 metres, and in the various shows, about 300.

So, while some people try to retcon this by saying there are 2 types, I think there's only one, and the last figure (or close to it) is the safest to base off of.

[Stark]

Brian, christ.

'BoP' is OBVIOUSLY refering to the 90m BoP, not the larger 320m ones. Stop being a wanker. In any case, the Klinks still have Vor'chas and Negh'vars, not that they need them since they've got Xwings.

YT, there are shots that show the BoP to be 60m. Lets make another thread if you want to discuss it; this isn't the place. Brians just being intentionally dense.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

Uh, dude, if they'rated at 3000 gigawatts, how the fuck do they survive weapons rated at their lower limits at 10 to 30 terawatts against shields?

Also, despite the "Pegasus" quote, visuals show photon torpedoes hitting things with at least 5 megatonnage power, and visuals>dialogue.

That's because these are lower limits, or did I say somewhere these are the absolute high end for both sides?

Because last I saw...no I didn't. So don't Strawman me because I didn't go "THESE ARE BOTH SIDES LOW END, EVEN THOUGH IT'S FUCKING OBVIOUS!!!!!"

And thank for you for pulling high end for Torpedos...we've seen TNG shields and hull low ends at abyssmally low values as well, which is why this subject is in debate, because if your low end is within the other sides low end values then you consider the whole of the picture, not just go "We'll use an ultra high end figure and claim victoly!!!!!"

And in the end, before you can barging in like a bull in a china shop, how does this refute the idea that if the Klingons had X-Wings(sans torpedos...which makes the affair overkill) would not have an immense tactical advantage, given the speed and firepower that the ships have given their size?

Seeing as this has nothing at all to do with my post, I won't respond.

[brianeyci]

Brian, christ.

'BoP' is OBVIOUSLY refering to the 90m BoP, not the larger 320m ones. Stop being a wanker. In any case, the Klinks still have Vor'chas and Negh'vars, not that they need them since they've got Xwings.

YT, there are shots that show the BoP to be 60m. Lets make another thread if you want to discuss it; this isn't the place. Brians just being intentionally dense.

The only reason why I brought it up is I keep seeing badly defined scenarios. Why not spend a little extra time rather than just a few sentences creating your op, and if you create one why not state your own opinion. Obviously I knew he meant the smaller BOP, just that I want to point out that maybe spend a little time on op before posting.

Anyway, use GR's figure of 1 KT/second for X-Wing firepower. If ten torpedoes can take out a Galaxy, use 0.1 MT from Pegasus and get 1 MT shielding for a Galaxy. If X-Wings fire once per second, that's 1000 seconds for one X-Wing, 500 seconds for two X-Wings, and so on. 10 X-Wings means around a minute and a half. Now give ten BOP a minute and a half on a Galaxy, and the Galaxy is shredded. The numbers are a little different if you have two cannons (I don't know how many cannons an X-Wing has) but still come around to one minute or so. Even if you lower it down to half a minute, more than enough time for ten BOP to destroy a Galaxy.

Not to mention that Klingons using one-man craft means they can't use their usual tactic of lowering enemy shields then boarding for personal glory.

Hyperspace is interesting, but not interesting enough to make up for the disparity in firepower and change in tactics. They already have a way of appearing out of nowhere, cloak. Without capital ship support they won't be able to hold ground/space, just hit-and-run.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

The only reason why I brought it up is I keep seeing badly defined scenarios. Why not spend a little extra time rather than just a few sentences creating your op, and if you create one why not state your own opinion. Obviously I knew he meant the smaller BOP, just that I want to point out that maybe spend a little time on op before posting.

You're complaining that the scenario is "poorly defined" now? Give me a fucking break, a question was asked, if you wanted it defined better you should have said so at the beginning, and not after the thread reached 2 pages. "Obviously you knew?" Oh of course, obviously, of course why didn't I realize this all the time. Brian you're so god damn amazing sometimes. Wow.

Anyway, use GR's figure of 1 KT/second for X-Wing firepower. If ten torpedoes can take out a Galaxy, use 0.1 MT from Pegasus and get 1 MT shielding for a Galaxy. If X-Wings fire once per second, that's 1000 seconds for one X-Wing, 500 seconds for two X-Wings, and so on. 10 X-Wings means around a minute and a half. Now give ten BOP a minute and a half on a Galaxy, and the Galaxy is shreddedThe numbers are a little different if you have two cannons (I don't know how many cannons an X-Wing has) but still come around to one minute or so. Even if you lower it down to half a minute, more than enough time for ten BOP to destroy a Galaxy.

And just exactly how are ten BoP supposed to get the drop on a galaxy as easy as 10 X-wings. Even if they take all of the time in the world sneaking up in cloak and getting the drop the tactic doesn't work for long as other Fed vessels become aware of whats going on and adapting. The X-Wings drop out of Hyperspace, shoot the fuck out of the target, and speed back. With Hyperdrive they can operate from a Starbase near Q'o'nos, making the missions a lot easier, costing a lot less in supplying these missions.

Not to mention that Klingons using one-man craft means they can't use their usual tactic of lowering enemy shields then boarding for personal glory.

You absolutely shit yourself when you thought I said the Klingons were "Incompetent Pilots" earlier in the thread and now here you are saying like this?

Hyperspace is interesting, but not interesting enough to make up for the disparity in firepower and change in tactics. They already have a way of appearing out of nowhere, cloak. Without capital ship support they won't be able to hold ground/space, just hit-and-run.

There is still the Vor'cha and Negh'var for Capital ship support and holding territory. But with Hyperdrive they don't need to have the X wings everywhere, given enough fuel they wouldn't ever have to be anywhere but Q'o'nos. It's a little thing called "HYPERDRIVE IS WAY FUCKING FASTER." They can cross the galaxy, even if its a weak hyperdrive it would still take them mere days to cross it and back while most Trek ships would take hundreds of years to do the same thing. If you build enough X-Wings you have a presence in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant at all times, no matter what. No enemy convoy is safe because at any time the X Wings would show up, no starbase is safe because at any time the X-wingss could show up. And if the Klingons aren't as ignorant as you are Brian they would recognize this, build as many X-Wings as they could, and start asking the Feds to "rework that Khitomer thingy."

Hyperspace is "interesting." And I'll bet the Death Star Superlaser aroused your curiosity eh?

[Darth Fanboy]

One more thing

If you're going to bitch about the OP and how the situation while wanking off to some supposed loophole then why don't I also?

*puts on a little lube*. The X-Wings all are fitted with Klingon cloaking devices

*picks up the pace a bit*. The X wings are outfitted with Klingon ordinance that fits into their existing torpedo launchers

*Rolls eyes and tickles balls.* The X wings use massive raids on possibly hundreds of fighters. No fewer than 60 or so.

*Thumb up ass.* The X wings go on swift raids using the combined effectiveness of Hyperdrive and the cloaking devices to sneak past Fed lines and hit key facilities and powerstarships before they even get a chance.

*pounds harder.* Starfleet infrastructure is wiped out in a matter of weeks as the X-Wings go unimpeded.....OOOOO!

*frantically looking for tissues* All of this with minimal manpower requirements, since the 12-90 strong crew of the BoP have been trained to be Ace Pilots. They do so from Q'o'nos where the Feds cannot attack them, ever. Eventually using the X wings to support attacks by their other capital ships in other parts of the quadrant.

*chokes of auto-erotic asphyxiation* GACK!

[wautd]

Brian, christ.

'BoP' is OBVIOUSLY refering to the 90m BoP, not the larger 320m ones. Stop being a wanker. In any case, the Klinks still have Vor'chas and Negh'vars, not that they need them since they've got Xwings.

YT, there are shots that show the BoP to be 60m. Lets make another thread if you want to discuss it; this isn't the place. Brians just being intentionally dense.

Obviously I knew he meant the smaller BOP, just that I want to point out that maybe spend a little time on op before posting.

Maybe because it was fucking obvious? I don't see anyone making a fuzz about it

[wautd]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

X-Wings would be highly useful against Klingons traditional enemies like Romulans and Cardassians, because their ships don't seem to have the right kind of weapons or accuracy to take out small fighter craft, as the Dominion war proved for the Cardassians and from observation of the Warbird. But trading in capital ships 320 m in size for the same amount of fighters? Ludicrous, just keep the BOP and save the trouble of training.

Brian

Well I never said it was only vs the Feds. So you say that against Romulans and Cardassians they can give an immense advantage. Or not?

[brianeyci]

You're complaining that the scenario is "poorly defined" now? Give me a fucking break, a question was asked, if you wanted it defined better you should have said so at the beginning, and not after the thread reached 2 pages. "Obviously you knew?" Oh of course, obviously, of course why didn't I realize this all the time. Brian you're so god damn amazing sometimes. Wow.

I don't care, this point doesn't matter. Of course I obviously knew, because I obviously knew there was a larger and a smaller BOP, and I obviously knew that he meant the smaller BOP. But he didn't state which kind of BOP he was replacing. "Just as cheaply" is another way of saying "just as expensive" and he could have meant that an X-Wing costs as much to maintain as a capital ship. Anyway I already conceded this point when watud made himself clear, so I don't know what your point is.

And just exactly how are ten BoP supposed to get the drop on a galaxy as easy as 10 X-wings. Even if they take all of the time in the world sneaking up in cloak and getting the drop the tactic doesn't work for long as other Fed vessels become aware of whats going on and adapting. The X-Wings drop out of Hyperspace, shoot the fuck out of the target, and speed back. With Hyperdrive they can operate from a Starbase near Q'o'nos, making the missions a lot easier, costing a lot less in supplying these missions.

And how are they supposed to scan out of hyperspace and know where Galaxies are? I have shown that Federation colonies are defended by phasers and photon torpedoes, and that they have 30 times the shielding of a Galaxy. Earth may be vulnerable to a decapitation strike, but most of SF command will be outside of their reach as Admirals stay on starbases. It will be an effective terror tactic, but not of great strategic importance unless they can put hyperspace on their larger ships.

If hyperspace is such devestating tactic that Federation cannot adapt to, cloak should have worked that way as well in the ST-verse. Federation ships did not have an effective defense against cloak and had to rely on fixed defenses and sensor nets. Cloak should have allowed the Klingons/Romulans to steamroll the Feds. It didn't. What makes you think the Klingons will use hyperspace in the way you suggest, when the Klingons didn't use cloak in this way?

Meanwhile, you are thinking that the Federation will not strike back? You are proposing replacing the majority of Klingon escort and frigate strength with one-man craft. Depending on how numerous BOP are in the Klingon navy, they could lose a lot of their firepower. X-Wings have maneuverability and surprise on their side, but they are less durable than a BOP and cannot stand up to capital ships.

You absolutely shit yourself when you thought I said the Klingons were "Incompetent Pilots" earlier in the thread and now here you are saying like this?

A one-man craft cannot hold troops and board enemy ships or take enemy colonies. This tactic works in the ST-verse, like it or not, however incompetent the Klingons are. A one-man craft cannot take and hold ground, and definitely cannot board ships. Your "incompetent pilots" point is a red herring and has nothing to do with boarding ships, or X-Wing crew compliment.

There is still the Vor'cha and Negh'var for Capital ship support and holding territory. But with Hyperdrive they don't need to have the X wings everywhere, given enough fuel they wouldn't ever have to be anywhere but Q'o'nos. It's a little thing called "HYPERDRIVE IS WAY FUCKING FASTER." They can cross the galaxy, even if its a weak hyperdrive it would still take them mere days to cross it and back while most Trek ships would take hundreds of years to do the same thing. If you build enough X-Wings you have a presence in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant at all times, no matter what. No enemy convoy is safe because at any time the X Wings would show up, no starbase is safe because at any time the X-wingss could show up. And if the Klingons aren't as ignorant as you are Brian they would recognize this, build as many X-Wings as they could, and start asking the Feds to "rework that Khitomer thingy."

Hyperspace is "interesting." And I'll bet the Death Star Superlaser aroused your curiosity eh?

I am not denying the utility of hyperspace, but if you claim that hyperspace is the determining factor in the conflict, then you are wrong. The Klingons did not use cloak in this way, and I can trot out numerous examples of Federation ships being unable to detect cloak.

What makes you think the Klingons will use hyperspace in the way you suggest, and not use the X-Wings just like they used BOP, as fleet escorts and scout craft?

And do you think the Federation would not strike back? The Federation would gather most of its strength together in a large fleet, which now numbers around five thousand, and head straight for Q'nos to force a decisive battle, if the Klingons use hyperspace as you say (a point which I refute). And when X-Wings which are capable of being downed by a single hit by Federation capital ships, which according to Alyeska are the only AQ power which have accuracy to hit craft < 200m small with any frequency, well fuck you will want those BOP back which can survive five to eight torpedo hits without shields IIRC from ST Generations.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Well I never said it was only vs the Feds. So you say that against Romulans and Cardassians they can give an immense advantage. Or not?

Yes very big advantage, although Cardassians are crushed now, so its just against the Romulans. The Romulans don't have the right kind of weapons to engage highly maneuverable fighter craft, and would probably fall just as fast as Dominion/Cardassian if not faster because their warbirds have all their weapons on two hugeass mounts.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

And how are they supposed to scan out of hyperspace and know where Galaxies are?

Its called military intelligence. They should know where the targets are in advance, especially in the cases of a shipyard or starbase. I wont make claims about SW sensor tech because I dont know much about it.

I have shown that Federation colonies are defended by phasers and photon torpedoes, and that they have 30 times the shielding of a Galaxy. Earth may be vulnerable to a decapitation strike, but most of SF command will be outside of their reach as Admirals stay on starbases. It will be an effective terror tactic, but not of great strategic importance unless they can put hyperspace on their larger ships.

I've been saying the Starbases are targets! Fucking shit man! The Starbases aren't exactly SW-quality space fortresses they can be beaten and you don't exactly see swarms of ships defending every last one. Even then surprise attacks on a wide scale before the feds can react would be huge.

And please tell me again where Fed colonies have this great defense and shielding 30X that of a GCS, as much as I dislike you, I always hesitate to call people liars as a courtesy. Tell me about the canon examples of Fed colonies doing this too. Please, tell me.

If hyperspace is such devestating tactic that Federation cannot adapt to, cloak should have worked that way as well in the ST-verse. Federation ships did not have an effective defense against cloak and had to rely on fixed defenses and sensor nets. Cloak should have allowed the Klingons/Romulans to steamroll the Feds. It didn't. What makes you think the Klingons will use hyperspace in the way you suggest, when the Klingons didn't use cloak in this way?

Again, you got pissed at me earlier when I suggested the Klingons might not have competent pilots. NOw you're sitting here telling me that the Klingons won't use competent tactics? The Feds eventually figured out a way around cloak but that doesn't deny that cloak still doesnt have advantages or else why would the Feds try and use it on ships like Defiant and Pegasus.

Hyperspace allows them to go so fucking fast they can bypass those nets and defenses.

Meanwhile, you are thinking that the Federation will not strike back? You are proposing replacing the majority of Klingon escort and frigate strength with one-man craft. Depending on how numerous BOP are in the Klingon navy, they could lose a lot of their firepower. X-Wings have maneuverability and surprise on their side, but they are less durable than a BOP and cannot stand up to capital ships.

You haven't effectively demonstrated that the X-wings would die as easily as you claim. and not every ship in the federation is a "1337 warship" capable of hitting tiny targets.

A one-man craft cannot hold troops and board enemy ships or take enemy colonies. This tactic works in the ST-verse, like it or not, however incompetent the Klingons are. A one-man craft cannot take and hold ground, and definitely cannot board ships. Your "incompetent pilots" point is a red herring and has nothing to do with boarding ships, or X-Wing crew compliment.

When did I ever say that the X wings would take and hold territory. Thats a responsibility for Vor'Cha and NEgh'var ships. The Xwings would give the Klingons a presence though EVERYWHERE. If you keep even just one or two squadrons at constant readiness you can use hyperdrive to have them anywhere for a fight wherever it may be.

I am not denying the utility of hyperspace, but if you claim that hyperspace is the determining factor in the conflict, then you are wrong. The Klingons did not use cloak in this way, and I can trot out numerous examples of Federation ships being unable to detect cloak.

So you think the Klingons are too stupid to use the speed of hyperdrive to their advantage?

What makes you think the Klingons will use hyperspace in the way you suggest, and not use the X-Wings just like they used BOP, as fleet escorts and scout craft?

I did suggest to use X-wings as scout craft, pop into a system, get a quick read, and leave. But the overwhelming speed advantage has military applications, which the Klingons will discover assuming they aren't as dumb as you want them to be.

And do you think the Federation would not strike back? The Federation would gather most of its strength together in a large fleet, which now numbers around five thousand, and head straight for Q'nos to force a decisive battle, if the Klingons use hyperspace as you say (a point which I refute). And when X-Wings which are capable of being downed by a single hit by Federation capital ships, which according to Alyeska are the only AQ power which have accuracy to hit craft < 200m small with any frequency, well fuck you will want those BOP back which can survive five to eight torpedo hits without shields IIRC from ST Generations.

<200m is impressive, but an X-wing is less than 20. The aim isn't going to be absolutely perfect, and if you take a look at the Original "Trekmiss" (thank you Ghost Rider for pointing that out earlier) Even SF ships are capable of missing! They aren't infallible! They'll have multiple targets maneuvering like nothing they have ever seen before and not every ship is a GCS and capable of dealing out damage to the attackers.

Then the Federation gathers most of its fleet, putting everything it has into one great strike leaving it completely vulnerable. Meanwhile the Klingons see the Feds coming due to the slow speed of Warp Drive and assemble their defenses, possibly preparing a group of X-wings to hit underdefended or no longer defended positions!

And the Feds would pull this great mighty fleet together and how many of these ships are GCS capable or better? and it would take how long to pull these thosuands of ships together? The Klingons would notice this and take advantage.

The Fed Fleet squares off against the Klingon Fleet in Klingon territory, this is your great idea...

Concession Accepted. Obviously.

[brianeyci]

Its called military intelligence. They should know where the targets are in advance, especially in the cases of a shipyard or starbase. I wont make claims about SW sensor tech because I dont know much about it.

Point conceded, although ship movements and fleet concentration would be out of their reach unless you know of some Klingon intelligence apparatus that I don't.

I've been saying the Starbases are targets! Fucking shit man! The Starbases aren't exactly SW-quality space fortresses they can be beaten and you don't exactly see swarms of ships defending every last one. Even then surprise attacks on a wide scale before the feds can react would be huge.

Surprise attacks would be devestating, but I doubt it would get every single senior flag officer. If worse comes to worse, Picard takes command of the Fed fleet. I concede the point about the Fed Admirals.

And please tell me again where Fed colonies have this great defense and shielding 30X that of a GCS, as much as I dislike you, I always hesitate to call people liars as a courtesy. Tell me about the canon examples of Fed colonies doing this too. Please, tell me.

Take Klingon D-7 and firing rate of 1 torpedo a minute. Take a 0.1 MT torpedo figure. Take 7 Romulan Battlecruisers from TNG episode "Angel One". Angel One lasted 48 minutes against these Romulan Battlecruisers. Why Battlecruisers and not Warbirds, since Warbird was revealed much later. 48 x 7 x 0.1 MT is around 30 MT shielding. If ten photon torpedoes can take out the shields of a Galaxy, 0.1 MT torpedo figure means 1 MT shielding. Colony has 30 times the shielding of a Galaxy.

And plus, I have linked the appropriate thread in a previous post discussing this.

I do not know why you dislike me, I have not done anything to you, or insulted you IIRC.

Again, you got pissed at me earlier when I suggested the Klingons might not have competent pilots. NOw you're sitting here telling me that the Klingons won't use competent tactics? The Feds eventually figured out a way around cloak but that doesn't deny that cloak still doesnt have advantages or else why would the Feds try and use it on ships like Defiant and Pegasus.

You did not provide any proof that Klingons were incompetent pilots as you claimed. I can bring out a lot of proof that Federation defenses in the TNG area and before would have been extremely vulnerable to cloaked attacks. That is the difference. Before I waste my time, please concede the point.

Hyperspace allows them to go so fucking fast they can bypass those nets and defenses.

Assuming that the Klingons use X-Wings in this way. And so does cloak. Focus 500 cloaked ships on a Fed sensor net, break through, and spread out and annihilate the Federation. They obviously haven't done this.

You haven't effectively demonstrated that the X-wings would die as easily as you claim. and not every ship in the federation is a "1337 warship" capable of hitting tiny targets.

X-Wings taken out by a Tie fighter shot? Okay, 1 KT/second, how many seconds does an X-Wing get shot at before it gets destroyed? And Fed phasers being only slightly less powerful than photons, meaning around 0.1 MT yield per shot? A hundred seconds of Tie Fighter to be equivalent to one second of Fed phaser shot? Please.

The accuracy argument is another argument entirely. Alyeska and DW did not resolve this dispute (in the thread I read), and I doubt you and I will either. I propose that the accuracy argument cannot be used by either you or me, unless you are prepared to trot out evidence that an X-Wing can maneuver fast enough to dodge Fed phaser shot, which is impossible because maneuverability of this scale has not been seen in ST so you cannot prove that ST ships would miss. I can bring out evidence that shows Fed ships have no problem hitting small craft however. The example that comes to mind is Voyager shooting those hundreds of small craft that sucked its shields, do you remember the episode?

When did I ever say that the X wings would take and hold territory. Thats a responsibility for Vor'Cha and NEgh'var ships. The Xwings would give the Klingons a presence though EVERYWHERE. If you keep even just one or two squadrons at constant readiness you can use hyperdrive to have them anywhere for a fight wherever it may be.

I never said that you said that X-Wings would take and hold territory. I said that BOP are used to take and hold territory. If you are looking at hyperdrive as the magic bullet for Klingons, what makes you think they would use it in the way you suggest when Klingons didn't use cloak this way? The difference between your "Klingons are incompetent pilots" claim is that I can provide evidence that Fed could not detect cloak, and that they relied on fixed defenses.

So you think the Klingons are too stupid to use the speed of hyperdrive to their advantage?

No, I am saying that they will use the tactics they usually use. Which is use cloaked ships as scouts and escorts for larger vessels.

I did suggest to use X-wings as scout craft, pop into a system, get a quick read, and leave. But the overwhelming speed advantage has military applications, which the Klingons will discover assuming they aren't as dumb as you want them to be.

I did not suggest the Klingons were dumb. I suggest that the Klingons will act in-character, which is use X-Wing like they use BOP, since the proposal was to use X-Wings in place of BOP.

<200m is impressive, but an X-wing is less than 20.

More on this later, I will find screenshots of those tiny craft Voyager shot at (if you can remember the episode I will be grateful).

The aim isn't going to be absolutely perfect, and if you take a look at the Original "Trekmiss" (thank you Ghost Rider for pointing that out earlier)

Red herring, ground combat, and I have never claimed aim would be perfect.

Even SF ships are capable of missing! They aren't infallible! They'll have multiple targets maneuvering like nothing they have ever seen before

Strawman, as I have never claimed they have 100% accuracy or detracted from X-Wing's maneuverability advantage.

and not every ship is a GCS and capable of dealing out damage to the attackers.

BOP are used against capital ships, flown in swarms, as evidenced in the Dominion War. And according to Alyeska's analysis, Fed shipyard can put out 200 large frame ships and around 1k small frame ships a year. If Fed increased their size to 5k during Dominion war, that must mean most of their ships are smaller sized Defiant/Sabre/Vulture class ships. So you are right, most Fed ships will not be GCS. But most Klingon ships will not be BOP either. I have never claimed that all ships would be GCS, I am just using a guideline. What do you propose I replace it with?

Then the Federation gathers most of its fleet, putting everything it has into one great strike leaving it completely vulnerable. Meanwhile the Klingons see the Feds coming due to the slow speed of Warp Drive and assemble their defenses, possibly preparing a group of X-wings to hit underdefended or no longer defended positions!

Like they use cloak. Like how Klingons will be forced to defend Q'nos because of their honor and won't be able to abandon it to attack targets of opportunity in Fed space.

And the Feds would pull this great mighty fleet together and how many of these ships are GCS capable or better? and it would take how long to pull these thosuands of ships together? The Klingons would notice this and take advantage.

They don't need to be GCS capable or better, a Defiant class ship has enough firepower to destroy an X-Wing. If you have another benchmark, tell me what to use. Defiant? Peregrine? Shuttle? Please. How many BOP are there in the Klingon fleet, do you know? Until you have a better idea, I will keep using the GCS as a benchmark.

The Fed Fleet squares off against the Klingon Fleet in Klingon territory, this is your great idea...

Concession Accepted. Obviously.

Concession? The only thing you're hanging on is the idea that Klingons would be uber with hyperspace, totally out of their character.

Brian

[Stark]

Brian wasn't the 'angel one' battle at a border outpost, not a colony? With another ship in attendance? A border outpost with a ship is a much different animal than a colony.

[Darth Fanboy]

BRIAN

TREKMISS ONE by Poe dealt with ST Starships

TREKMISS TWO was ground combat. Quit being a fucking idiot.

[Darth Fanboy]

Point conceded, although ship movements and fleet concentration would be out of their reach unless you know of some Klingon intelligence apparatus that I don't.

All you need to do is plant agents, and if we're doing a Klingon vs. Fed scenario undoubtedly the Klingons would be gathering Intel from their current allies prior to a strike. Regular patrol routes, regular deployments, these are things they are going to be able to get.

Take Klingon D-7 and firing rate of 1 torpedo a minute. Take a 0.1 MT torpedo figure. Take 7 Romulan Battlecruisers from TNG episode "Angel One". Angel One lasted 48 minutes against these Romulan Battlecruisers. Why Battlecruisers and not Warbirds, since Warbird was revealed much later. 48 x 7 x 0.1 MT is around 30 MT shielding. If ten photon torpedoes can take out the shields of a Galaxy, 0.1 MT torpedo figure means 1 MT shielding. Colony has 30 times the shielding of a Galaxy.

Angel One is not indicative of a standard Federation Colony. I would point to you the Breen attack on Earth, if the Fed capital isn't shielded, then it is highly doubtful they do so with their other colonies.

You did not provide any proof that Klingons were incompetent pilots as you claimed. I can bring out a lot of proof that Federation defenses in the TNG area and before would have been extremely vulnerable to cloaked attacks. That is the difference. Before I waste my time, please concede the point.

The only reason I said they MIGHT be incompetent is because they were handed alien technology unfamiliar to them at first, it was not stated that the Klingons were instantly granted ace pilots and training, so I made the assumption that the Klingon pilots eventually acquired some level of training.

Assuming that the Klingons use X-Wings in this way. And so does cloak. Focus 500 cloaked ships on a Fed sensor net, break through, and spread out and annihilate the Federation. They obviously haven't done this.

Easier to do with X-wings. BoPs are larger ships that take more crew and if they are caught behind enemy lines they are in a lot more trouble than an X-Wing that can use a SW hyperdrive to get home.

X-Wings taken out by a Tie fighter shot? Okay, 1 KT/second, how many seconds does an X-Wing get shot at before it gets destroyed? And Fed phasers being only slightly less powerful than photons, meaning around 0.1 MT yield per shot? A hundred seconds of Tie Fighter to be equivalent to one second of Fed phaser shot? Please.

I dont make the claim that Fed phasers wont hurt an X-wing, but a small target is less liekly to be hit, what I am contesting is the infalliable accuracy you seem to be crediting the Fed ships with. which is why I cite TREKMISS ONE (the one with ships, not ground combat)

The accuracy argument is another argument entirely. Alyeska and DW did not resolve this dispute (in the thread I read), and I doubt you and I will either.

And I can show you 'Trekmiss' (again more thanks to Ghost Rider for pointing out this is a valid piece of evidence). Again, the one with the ships.

I like this:

I propose that the accuracy argument cannot be used by either you or me, unless you are prepared to trot out evidence that an X-Wing can maneuver fast enough to dodge Fed phaser shot, which is impossible because maneuverability of this scale has not been seen in ST so you cannot prove that ST ships would miss. I can bring out evidence that shows Fed ships have no problem hitting small craft however.

and thus you have no proof the Trek ships can hit an X Wing with any great ease. That line in bold just negated the next statement you make after it.

The example that comes to mind is Voyager shooting those hundreds of small craft that sucked its shields, do you remember the episode?

I remember two things about Voyager. It sucked and it's cancelled.

I never said that you said that X-Wings would take and hold territory. I said that BOP are used to take and hold territory. If you are looking at hyperdrive as the magic bullet for Klingons, what makes you think they would use it in the way you suggest when Klingons didn't use cloak this way? The difference between your "Klingons are incompetent pilots" claim is that I can provide evidence that Fed could not detect cloak, and that they relied on fixed defenses.

No, I am saying that they will use the tactics they usually use. Which is use cloaked ships as scouts and escorts for larger vessels.

And you dont think that the revolutionary new technologies being given to them in the X-Wings would give them ANY reason to change tactics? Its common sense, (make all the jokes about ST-militaries and common sense you want.) Once the Klingons realize the capabilities of the ship the can devise these tactics. And the OP (which you derided by not being clear and detailed enough) states that "Will the AQ be fucked if the Klingons Change their tactics to fighter swarms". If the Klingons are able to change their tactics that much, they should be able to adopt new tactics. By limiting them and not giving them any sort of ingenuity, are you assuming the Klingons have Borg commanders or something?

I did not suggest the Klingons were dumb. I suggest that the Klingons will act in-character, which is use X-Wing like they use BOP, since the proposal was to use X-Wings in place of BOP.

Just because the X-wings are being switched for BoPs doesn't mean the Klingons will use the X-wings in the same manner. If the Klingons act according to they character you are ascribing them, then you might as well say they are dumb. We make fun of Klingons a lot, but they are capable of recognizing the advantages of new technologies, and thus, devising strategies.

More on this later, I will find screenshots of those tiny craft Voyager shot at (if you can remember the episode I will be grateful).

You still need to compare those craft's maneuverability to that of an X-wing. If the tiny craft are small, but have the manueverability of a wet turd on a windowpane I won't be impressed.

Red herring, ground combat, and I have never claimed aim would be perfect.

I hate repeating myself. But thats TREKMISS TWO. Trekmiss One deals with ships. I have to keep saying this, because its OBVIOUS you don't get it. Obviously.

Strawman, as I have never claimed they have 100% accuracy or detracted from X-Wing's maneuverability advantage.

But have been referring to Alyeska's <200m accuracy findings quite often, and you've noted the instance in Voyager to try and back up your points. You are claiming a very high accuracy when that is put in doubt, especially by Trekmiss and the X-wings manueverability.

BOP are used against capital ships, flown in swarms, as evidenced in the Dominion War. And according to Alyeska's analysis, Fed shipyard can put out 200 large frame ships and around 1k small frame ships a year. If Fed increased their size to 5k during Dominion war, that must mean most of their ships are smaller sized Defiant/Sabre/Vulture class ships. So you are right, most Fed ships will not be GCS. But most Klingon ships will not be BOP either. I have never claimed that all ships would be GCS, I am just using a guideline. What do you propose I replace it with?

I don't propose you replace it with anything, but those smaller ships cant ttake the damage, or dish out a much damage as a GCS, and are more susceptible to X-wings, one can argue the smaller ships are way more vulnerable to X-Wings due to maneuverability and weaker shields than their larger counterparts.

I also brought that point up because you decided that the Federation is going to use its entire fleet (or at least the majority of it) on a large scale invasion of Q'o'nos. You've made a lot of your points based on the GCS.

Like they use cloak. Like how Klingons will be forced to defend Q'nos because of their honor and won't be able to abandon it to attack targets of opportunity in Fed space.

but the Feds have to use a max of Warp 9 to get to Q'o'nos. It will take days, the X wings could travel across the entire AQ with hyperdrive, hit their target, and be back well ahead of the Feds. Again you understimate the speed advantage.

They don't need to be GCS capable or better, a Defiant class ship has enough firepower to destroy an X-Wing. If you have another benchmark, tell me what to use. Defiant? Peregrine? Shuttle? Please. How many BOP are there in the Klingon fleet, do you know? Until you have a better idea, I will keep using the GCS as a benchmark.

The X-wings firepower is even more lethal to the smaller ships, 1/kt per second should do serious damage to ships of Defiant-class or smaller. Also the Defiant uses the PPCs and does not have the same accuracy unless it uses phasers. Unless i'm the accuracy being tested was only with regards to phasers. Even if the Defiant has sufficient phasers to hit an X-wing there is no gurantee they will live long enough to stand up to 1KT per second. Especially if multiple X-wings are involved.

Concession? The only thing you're hanging on is the idea that Klingons would be uber with hyperspace, totally out of their character.

The point of this scenario is to show what tactics the Klingons could devise, no tlimit them due to a bad stereotype which you aren't even applying properly. You've based this entire argument on two things, accuracy of phasers vs. fighter maneuverability which you admit cannot be settled and the fact that to use the tactics i've described goes against Klingon character. I'm not hanging on to anything, If I were then why did you concede points earlier?

Second Concession Accepted.

[wautd]

They don't need to be GCS capable or better, a Defiant class ship has enough firepower to destroy an X-Wing

Arent the phasers of a defiant fixed so it boils down to a matter of maneuverability? I think phaserbanks like a Galaxy or Intreprid are better against smaller targets since they can fire off axis

Two questions by the way.
- since a normal shot is overkill for an X-wing, can the rate of fire be increased if they would lower their power output per shot?
- Did they ever shown to use a wide-beam?

[brianeyci]

All you need to do is plant agents, and if we're doing a Klingon vs. Fed scenario undoubtedly the Klingons would be gathering Intel from their current allies prior to a strike. Regular patrol routes, regular deployments, these are things they are going to be able to get.

And you have evidence of such Klingon intelligence facilities from what?

Angel One is not indicative of a standard Federation Colony. I would point to you the Breen attack on Earth, if the Fed capital isn't shielded, then it is highly doubtful they do so with their other colonies.

Federation archaeological outposts are shielded and have phasers and possibly photon torpedoes. Earth is the exception, not the rule. Vulcan has fast-response ships while Earth does not (other than SF ships that happen to be in spacedock or in orbit). Earth has been attacked by V'Ger, Borg, Breen, Whale Probe, and yet it is still not fortified. One wonders why, and the logical explaination is that there is some sort of aversion to fortification on Earth.

The only reason I said they MIGHT be incompetent is because they were handed alien technology unfamiliar to them at first, it was not stated that the Klingons were instantly granted ace pilots and training, so I made the assumption that the Klingon pilots eventually acquired some level of training.

Fine. So withdraw your comment about me hounding you about the incompetence. I do not see what is so bad about asking for evidence, if you made that claim what did you expect, nobody to call you up on it? I do not see what I did wrong by asking for evidence.

Easier to do with X-wings. BoPs are larger ships that take more crew and if they are caught behind enemy lines they are in a lot more trouble than an X-Wing that can use a SW hyperdrive to get home.

So you really do want me to waste my time. Fine

Federation response to cloak. Shows that perhaps Klingon Cloak is more primitive than Romulan Cloak, but this is not top-of-the-line cloak we are talking about here, and the Feds response indicates they are not aware/trained to deal with cloak.

RIKER
(to Conn)
Standard orbit, Ensign.
(to Data)
Any sign of the science team?

DATA
We have been scanning the area
since entering the system, but
our readings are being disrupted.

RIKER
Cause?

DATA
Extreme fluctuations in the E.M.
field.

Riker moves to take a closer look at the console.

DATA
However, there is no evidence of
relevant stellar or seismic
activity which would cause the
interference.

RIKER
Any response to our hails, Mister
Worf?

WORF
No, sir. I have been attempting
to---
(suddenly sees something
on console)
Commander, two ships decloaking
fore and aft.
(beat)
Klingon birds of prey... B'rel
class.

Federation necessity to rely on a fleet to deploy a specialized technobabble solution, indicating their standing defenses are inadequate to deal with cloak.

PICARD
My chief engineer has developed
a system that should help us
nullify that advantage. Each ship
will send out an active tachyon
beam to the other ships in the
blockade fleet. In theory, any
cloaked vessel that tries to pass
between our ships should cross
one of those beams and be
detected.

See this thread about Romulans and cloak on page four and five. Specifically the comments made by Cpl. Kendall (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him),

Exactly, unless SF stops them at the zone they are fucked. Cloaked Warbirds could roam the Federation unchecked. Conducting hit and run raids on worlds before SF could stop them. As long as they travel under cloak their unstoppable. And the Neutral Zone doesn't seem well patrolled, the Federation doesn't want to provoke the Romulans after all.

All of which applies to Klingon cloak, which is potent enough to fool Dominion sensors. Klingon Neutral Zone is also not well patrolled. Bold mine. Fucked, fucked, fucked, fucked, fucked.

Now, why do you think the Klingons would use hyperspace in this way, when they have not used their obvious advantage of cloak for hundreds of years? I'll tell you what the Klingons will see. They'll see their 100 KT torpedoes, and think that their torpedoes are one hundred times more powerful. And, if the Klingons start building X-Wings instead of BOP, they will slot X-Wings into the roles of BOP. Klingons use swarms of BOP to take advantage of maneuverability. They do not use BOP to take advantage of hit-and-run cloak tactics.

I dont make the claim that Fed phasers wont hurt an X-wing, but a small target is less liekly to be hit, what I am contesting is the infalliable accuracy you seem to be crediting the Fed ships with. which is why I cite TREKMISS ONE (the one with ships, not ground combat)

Fine, I didn't know that Trekmiss one was a ship combat not ground combat.

and thus you have no proof the Trek ships can hit an X Wing with any great ease. That line in bold just negated the next statement you make after it.

Of course, which is why I say that we should not use the accuracy argument at all, unless you are prepared to bring out specific figures rather than talking about generalities. Listen to this,

However, we expect that these "phasers" will be extremely dangerous for starfighters or light vessels and our fighters may experience heavy but strategically acceptable losses in fleet combat.

These have been done to death people. The answer is always the same- it depends on the warheads the SW fighters are carrying, which vary in firepower from the megaton to gigaton range, and whether there's enough ST ships to do the job of sniping off the fighters.

Both of which show that these learned men consider phasers to have enough accuracy to hit X-Wings. Alyeska considers phasers to have enough accuracy to hit X-Wings.

I never said that you said that X-Wings would take and hold territory. I said that BOP are used to take and hold territory. If you are looking at hyperdrive as the magic bullet for Klingons, what makes you think they would use it in the way you suggest when Klingons didn't use cloak this way? The difference between your "Klingons are incompetent pilots" claim is that I can provide evidence that Fed could not detect cloak, and that they relied on fixed defenses.

BTW you didn't reply to the above point.

And you dont think that the revolutionary new technologies being given to them in the X-Wings would give them ANY reason to change tactics? Its common sense, (make all the jokes about ST-militaries and common sense you want.) Once the Klingons realize the capabilities of the ship the can devise these tactics. And the OP (which you derided by not being clear and detailed enough) states that "Will the AQ be fucked if the Klingons Change their tactics to fighter swarms". If the Klingons are able to change their tactics that much, they should be able to adopt new tactics. By limiting them and not giving them any sort of ingenuity, are you assuming the Klingons have Borg commanders or something?

Cloak is already revolutionary and is not used the way it should. Appeal to popularity fallacy for appeal to common sense. No evidence that Klingons would use X-Wings in roles other than BOP is traditionally used for, especially when op states that Klingons can build X-Wings at BOP cost. Klingons already fly around in swarms, which is the advantage they would see in X-Wing. Massive speed will do no good if X-Wings cannot be brought to bear on Federation fleet assets as Federation fleet heads for Q'Nos.

What kind of numbers do you bring for your "Klingons will kick ass with hyperspace" claim? How many outposts can Klingons hit while Federation fleet is attacking the Klingons? Can the Klingons attack fast enough that Federation forces cannot overrun the Klingons? What happens with the loss of endurance, for which I have already provided numbers for? Do you have quantification for any of your claims?

Just because the X-wings are being switched for BoPs doesn't mean the Klingons will use the X-wings in the same manner. If the Klingons act according to they character you are ascribing them, then you might as well say they are dumb. We make fun of Klingons a lot, but they are capable of recognizing the advantages of new technologies, and thus, devising strategies.

It doesn't mean Klingons will use BOP in the same manner, but you have not debunked my cloak question and thus the Klingons are handicapped when thinking of "hit and run" tactics. The massive speed is an advantage, but so is cloak, and they never used it to near its potential, at all.

You still need to compare those craft's maneuverability to that of an X-wing. If the tiny craft are small, but have the manueverability of a wet turd on a windowpane I won't be impressed.

Fine. More to come later.

I hate repeating myself. But thats TREKMISS TWO. Trekmiss One deals with ships. I have to keep saying this, because its OBVIOUS you don't get it. Obviously.

I didn't know that Trekmiss One was ground combat. My apologies.

But have been referring to Alyeska's <200m accuracy findings quite often, and you've noted the instance in Voyager to try and back up your points. You are claiming a very high accuracy when that is put in doubt, especially by Trekmiss and the X-wings manueverability.

Alyeska has claimed 90% accuracy not 100% accuracy, so you still strawmanned me. As well, I list a couple of quotes above. Trekmiss, or picking the worst cases of Federation ship accuracy, does not automatically mean we disregard Alyeska's analysis of the whole of Trek.

I don't propose you replace it with anything, but those smaller ships cant ttake the damage, or dish out a much damage as a GCS, and are more susceptible to X-wings, one can argue the smaller ships are way more vulnerable to X-Wings due to maneuverability and weaker shields than their larger counterparts.

And until you provide some sort of quantification or suggestion on what to use other than GCS for benchmark, I'm going to keep using it.

I also brought that point up because you decided that the Federation is going to use its entire fleet (or at least the majority of it) on a large scale invasion of Q'o'nos. You've made a lot of your points based on the GCS.

My points on GCS is just about shield strength. Other Federation vessels can take 10 photon torpedo hits. Sovereign, War Galaxy, Defiant come to mind instantly, as well as many of the smaller and older Fed vessels like Ambassdor, Ent-C, etc.

but the Feds have to use a max of Warp 9 to get to Q'o'nos. It will take days, the X wings could travel across the entire AQ with hyperdrive, hit their target, and be back well ahead of the Feds. Again you understimate the speed advantage.

And you have not proven that the Klingons would use this tactic when for hundreds of years they have not used cloak.

The X-wings firepower is even more lethal to the smaller ships, 1/kt per second should do serious damage to ships of Defiant-class or smaller. Also the Defiant uses the PPCs and does not have the same accuracy unless it uses phasers. Unless i'm the accuracy being tested was only with regards to phasers. Even if the Defiant has sufficient phasers to hit an X-wing there is no gurantee they will live long enough to stand up to 1KT per second. Especially if multiple X-wings are involved.

Sure, but until you suggest otherwise (as you said before you're not suggesting anything) I will continue to use Defiant. And you underestimate the puny Defiant. It has more armor, is far better constructed, and overpowered for its size. Defiant can survive torpedo hits, and that's 100 KT x however many we've seen Defiant hit by.

The point of this scenario is to show what tactics the Klingons could devise, no tlimit them due to a bad stereotype which you aren't even applying properly. You've based this entire argument on two things, accuracy of phasers vs. fighter maneuverability which you admit cannot be settled and the fact that to use the tactics i've described goes against Klingon character. I'm not hanging on to anything, If I were then why did you concede points earlier?

Second Concession Accepted.

Bad stereotype? You have not proved that Klingons would use hyperspace in this way. Accuracy? Fuck that, I have used hard numbers like yield rather than percentages and unsubstantiated "Trekmiss" which is obviously Poe collecting the worst possible misses he could find. Against Klingon character? A very good argument, going out-of-character is a no no when debating. What's next, Palpatine making peace with the Federation?

I conceded points which were obviously mistakes, for example the Federation Admiral point. Conceding a few irrelevant points does not hurt the crux of my argument, that replacing a lot of Klingon firepower with one-man craft a fraction of their endurance is not a good idea. Also that the Klingons have not taken advantage of cloak, and believing that Klingons would take advantage of hyperspace when not taking advantage of such an obvious technological advantage for hundreds of years is ludicrous.

Also, the so-called "first-concession" was not a concession. You claim that my "admission" that the Federation would take the fight to the Klingons rather than go on the defensive is somehow indicative of the Federation being weak. Haven't you ever heard of "the best defense is a good offense"? Of course the Federation would take the fight to the Klingons if they were being outmaneuvered, that does not mean that they are unable to sit back and defend themselves if they want to.

BTW, those shield calcs were liberal. We've seen D-7's fire far faster than one per minute. If we take 3 per minute (from V'Ger if I remember correctly) or even the higher rate of fire from Chang's BOP, we get 60, 90, 120 times the shields of a Galaxy.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

And you have evidence of such Klingon intelligence facilities from what?

It'd be foolish to think that the Klingon military existed without any sort of intelligence gathering agency.

Federation archaeological outposts are shielded and have phasers and possibly photon torpedoes. Earth is the exception, not the rule. Vulcan has fast-response ships while Earth does not (other than SF ships that happen to be in spacedock or in orbit). Earth has been attacked by V'Ger, Borg, Breen, Whale Probe, and yet it is still not fortified. One wonders why, and the logical explaination is that there is some sort of aversion to fortification on Earth.

Archaelogical outposts ALONG THE BORDER OF AN ENEMY POWER. Show me a Federation colony that is armed not within spitting distance of the Romulans and maybe i'll buy this.

Fine. So withdraw your comment about me hounding you about the incompetence. I do not see what is so bad about asking for evidence, if you made that claim what did you expect, nobody to call you up on it? I do not see what I did wrong by asking for evidence.

You asked for evidence when none was required. I brought up the possibility of Klingon pilots requiring training at first because they were
being handed alien starfighters and completely alien technology. I still find it odd though that you at first were on my case about "stupid klingons" and then later in the debate you try and constrain their abilities using what you describe as their character.

So you really do want me to waste my time. Fine

Federation response to cloak. Shows that perhaps Klingon Cloak is more primitive than Romulan Cloak, but this is not top-of-the-line cloak we are talking about here, and the Feds response indicates they are not aware/trained to deal with cloak.

(LONG SNIP)

All of which applies to Klingon cloak, which is potent enough to fool Dominion sensors. Klingon Neutral Zone is also not well patrolled. Bold mine. Fucked, fucked, fucked, fucked, fucked.

Now, why do you think the Klingons would use hyperspace in this way, when they have not used their obvious advantage of cloak for hundreds of years? I'll tell you what the Klingons will see. They'll see their 100 KT torpedoes, and think that their torpedoes are one hundred times more powerful. And, if the Klingons start building X-Wings instead of BOP, they will slot X-Wings into the roles of BOP. Klingons use swarms of BOP to take advantage of maneuverability. They do not use BOP to take advantage of hit-and-run cloak tactics.

And you're wasting my time if you are firm in the belief that the Klingons would not even attempt to devise such a tactic. I say to you Brian, "Tear down this wall of ignorance!"

Fuck if we go along with what you are saying then why would the klingons even bother arming their ships? Why not glue giant bat'leths to the outside and have them try and duel enemy ships!

Fine, I didn't know that Trekmiss one was a ship combat not ground combat.

About fucking time.

Of course, which is why I say that we should not use the accuracy argument at all, unless you are prepared to bring out specific figures rather than talking about generalities.

-You argue a BoP is more valuable to the Klingons than the X-Wing Starfighter

-You say this is because BoPs can deal and take greater damage

-I say the X-wings have a greater chance of avoiding damage than the BoP, which is screwed against a fed ship of GCS-level strength on its own anyway.

-We don't need it to be clear wether or not the GCS can hit EVERY time (we know it can't hit EVERY time and it would be unfair to say the X-wings could dodge every time) but so long as the X-Wings have increased maneuverability

Listen to this,

However, we expect that these "phasers" will be extremely dangerous for starfighters or light vessels and our fighters may experience heavy but strategically acceptable losses in fleet combat.

Read the part I highlighted in bold. I never said the phasers weren't dangerous, but just because phasers are dangerous doesn't mean the X-wing would be a waste of time or resources.

These have been done to death people. The answer is always the same- it depends on the warheads the SW fighters are carrying, which vary in firepower from the megaton to gigaton range, and whether there's enough ST ships to do the job of sniping off the fighters.

Both of which show that these learned men consider phasers to have enough accuracy to hit X-Wings. Alyeska considers phasers to have enough accuracy to hit X-Wings.

Read the part in bold.

BTW you didn't reply to the above point.

I noticed this after I posted, but I already point out the effectiveness of Hyperdrive and your flawed arguments about the Klingons failure to use cloak because it doesn't fit their character.

Cloak is already revolutionary and is not used the way it should. Appeal to popularity fallacy for appeal to common sense. No evidence that Klingons would use X-Wings in roles other than BOP is traditionally used for, especially when op states that Klingons can build X-Wings at BOP cost. Klingons already fly around in swarms, which is the advantage they would see in X-Wing. Massive speed will do no good if X-Wings cannot be brought to bear on Federation fleet assets as Federation fleet heads for Q'Nos.

AGAIN I TELL YOU: Hyperdrive is fast enough to cross the galaxy in days (many canon examples, including the ability to go from Naboo to Tatooine to Geonosis with great speed in AOTC), Warp couldnt do it in 100 years (see the entire series of Voyager). This on its own proves Hyperdrive is WAY faster. Which means that if the entire Federation fleet, enroute to Q'o'nos is travelling through Klingon territory its going to get picked up. Its going to take days. the X Wings can then work with a lot less resistance on key targets back home. Your Uber-wank fleet against Q'o'nos is impractical. The X-wings would be fast enough to set out, destroy a target, and be back well before the Feds got there. Hyperdrive means the X-wings can be anywhere in the AQ at almost any time. So the X-wings can be brought to bear whenever the Klingons wanted.

What kind of numbers do you bring for your "Klingons will kick ass with hyperspace" claim? How many outposts can Klingons hit while Federation fleet is attacking the Klingons? Can the Klingons attack fast enough that Federation forces cannot overrun the Klingons? What happens with the loss of endurance, for which I have already provided numbers for? Do you have quantification for any of your claims?

Seeing as how you already conceded the point about the devastating impacts of surprise attacks and the impact against the Fed Command structure I don't think I should even bother.

Theres no number for: "speed advantage." Which you don't seem to get. How many outposts can the Klingons hit depends on the number of X-wings they have and the number of Federation Outposts there are, both of which are unknown or unspecified quantities. What kind of quantification is there for "

It doesn't mean Klingons will use BOP in the same manner, but you have not debunked my cloak question and thus the Klingons are handicapped when thinking of "hit and run" tactics. The massive speed is an advantage, but so is cloak, and they never used it to near its potential, at all.

Who the fuck are you the Klingon Sun-Tzu? Cloak is just one advantage, perhaps they disagree with you that it is enough of an advantage. Or perhaps they have other reasons for not invading, even Klingons don't invade just for the hell of it? Your fucking cloak claim is ridiculous, you're giving the Klingons Borg-level ineptitude at devising tactics and that's saying something.

I'll humor you though, here's DF's oiffical list of Klingon reasons not to use a huge ass cloaked fleet to invade the Federation.

-PEACE TREATY WITH THE FEDERATION. You're wondeirng why they don't invade their most pwerful peaceful neighbor and sometimes military ally? I bet you wonder why the US doesn't invade England either.

-Resource Requirements. BoPs and other ST ships for that matter are limited by the speed of warp travel. The BoPs need fuel and supplies for the LONG journey (long even at maximum warp). SW Hyperspace Travel means anywhere anytime from your home base. If the Klingons realize this, they will do it.

-Balance of Power. If the Klingons overstretched themselves against the Feds, the Romulans or someone else may come at them from another front, either through a treaty with the Feds or for the purpose of butchering Klingons. With X-wings they can hit a target and get their guys back in case something develops on another front.

-Cloak isn't that much of an advantage, like you said in your Redemption II quote. The Feds already have a way of detecting cloak. Eventually the cloak advantage would be negated or limited. Starfleet cannot adapt to the huge speed advantage of Hyperdrive without some major revolutions in technology. Cloaks have an existing countermeasure, hyperspace travel many orders of magnitude greater than an opponent's doesn't

Fine. More to come later.

I look forward to it.

I didn't know that Trekmiss One was ground combat. My apologies.

good.

Alyeska has claimed 90% accuracy not 100% accuracy, so you still strawmanned me. As well, I list a couple of quotes above. Trekmiss, or picking the worst cases of Federation ship accuracy, does not automatically mean we disregard Alyeska's analysis of the whole of Trek.

And until you provide some sort of quantification or suggestion on what to use other than GCS for benchmark, I'm going to keep using it.

Are you this dense? I brought up this fact because your great solution was a huge Fed Fleet attacking Q'o'nos. You can use the GCS as your benchmark all you want but if you think that all of your ships are going to be as effective in a huge fleet engagement as the GCS you are wrong.

My points on GCS is just about shield strength. Other Federation vessels can take 10 photon torpedo hits. Sovereign, War Galaxy, Defiant come to mind instantly, as well as many of the smaller and older Fed vessels like Ambassdor, Ent-C, etc.

but the Feds have to use a max of Warp 9 to get to Q'o'nos. It will take days, the X wings could travel across the entire AQ with hyperdrive, hit their target, and be back well ahead of the Feds. Again you understimate the speed advantage.

And you have not proven that the Klingons would use this tactic when for hundreds of years they have not used cloak.

The X-wings firepower is even more lethal to the smaller ships, 1/kt per second should do serious damage to ships of Defiant-class or smaller. Also the Defiant uses the PPCs and does not have the same accuracy unless it uses phasers. Unless i'm the accuracy being tested was only with regards to phasers. Even if the Defiant has sufficient phasers to hit an X-wing there is no gurantee they will live long enough to stand up to 1KT per second. Especially if multiple X-wings are involved.

Sure, but until you suggest otherwise (as you said before you're not suggesting anything) I will continue to use Defiant. And you underestimate the puny Defiant. It has more armor, is far better constructed, and overpowered for its size. Defiant can survive torpedo hits, and that's 100 KT x however many we've seen Defiant hit by.

The point of this scenario is to show what tactics the Klingons could devise, no tlimit them due to a bad stereotype which you aren't even applying properly. You've based this entire argument on two things, accuracy of phasers vs. fighter maneuverability which you admit cannot be settled and the fact that to use the tactics i've described goes against Klingon character. I'm not hanging on to anything, If I were then why did you concede points earlier?

Second Concession Accepted.

Bad stereotype? You have not proved that Klingons would use hyperspace in this way. Accuracy? Fuck that, I have used hard numbers like yield rather than percentages and unsubstantiated "Trekmiss" which is obviously Poe collecting the worst possible misses he could find. Against Klingon character? A very good argument, going out-of-character is a no no when debating. What's next, Palpatine making peace with the Federation?

Restating what has been said:

You are an IDIOT to think that the Klingons not taking a huge easy to figure out military advantage is out of their character. There is nothing in their character about them not utilizing a speed advantage. Thats the crux of your argument, a misconception. Gee I bet you got a big trophy when you were on the debate team too eh?

You mgiht as well give the Klingons a Death Star, and claim that they wouldn't use the Superlaser because it isn't in their character to blow up planets. ITS FUCKING OBVIOUS MAN! You who claimed to see so many 'obvious' things earlier! Don't get it.

-In war, it is good to be faster than the enemy.

Which part of the above statemtn do you think the Klingons have trouble understanding?

I conceded points which were obviously mistakes, for example the Federation Admiral point. Conceding a few irrelevant points does not hurt the crux of my argument, that replacing a lot of Klingon firepower with one-man craft a fraction of their endurance is not a good idea. Also that the Klingons have not taken advantage of cloak, and believing that Klingons would take advantage of hyperspace when not taking advantage of such an obvious technological advantage for hundreds of years is ludicrous.

You talk about the endurance between the BoP and X-Wing being the advantage of the BoP. Endurance doesnt mean jack shit if you can't get results. And Again, we're talking about "But the Klingons have never used their cloak like this!" See earlier points.

Also, the so-called "first-concession" was not a concession. You claim that my "admission" that the Federation would take the fight to the Klingons rather than go on the defensive is somehow indicative of the Federation being weak. Haven't you ever heard of "the best defense is a good offense"? Of course the Federation would take the fight to the Klingons if they were being outmaneuvered, that does not mean that they are unable to sit back and defend themselves if they want to.

BTW, those shield calcs were liberal. We've seen D-7's fire far faster than one per minute. If we take 3 per minute (from V'Ger if I remember correctly) or even the higher rate of fire from Chang's BOP, we get 60, 90, 120 times the shields of a Galaxy.

*sarcasm* "But the Federation won't take the fight to the Klingons, its out of character."

Your idea of a huge 5,000 strong fed fleet invading Klingon space is so ludicrous you can't possibly be joking. Doesn't matter about your shield calcs either, because the X-wings are going to hit targets of opportunity. I should have said this earlier, but you remember "BEst of Both worlds" right? and all of that strong Federation defense in the Sol system right? Oh wait, no there were no ships and those little thingys that hit the Cube at Mars. Nothing important there other than Earth right? Which you already conceded. Well Utopia Planitia shipyards, but those can't be THAT important now can they? Doesn't matter how strong the shields are if theres nothing to defend it.

I've already explained to you how the advantage of Hyperdrive would devaste the Federation, you've conceded several key points, about the only thing I can give to you is that given enough time you could bore me to death and claim victory based on that. But I digress...

Third Concession Accepted (because I know the sound of defeat pisses you off)