Rebellion in Paradise.

[brianeyci]

Well S31 should be rather sympathetic towards the rebell cause, they essentially have the same complaint as S31. At the same time they are a threat to the Federation not to mention competition in the "defend the Fed" business. S31 might well split over the rebellion, half attempting to assist the rebs in an effort to end the pacifism in the Federation and the other half to prevent the risk of a civilwar and an even more negative attitude towards the military

If S31 stood idly by through the "renessiance" between TOS and TNG, I think its safe to say they support the Federation. Stood idly by, because I can't think of any way the Federation could have transformed itself so much except through the "vision" of one man or a small group of men -- the Federation certainly didn't just change just by itself. And S31 could have stopped this revolution through assassinations, covert operations, and so on.

Brian

[CJvR]

If S31 stood idly by through the "renessiance" between TOS and TNG, I think its safe to say they support the Federation. Stood idly by, because I can't think of any way the Federation could have transformed itself so much except through the "vision" of one man or a small group of men -- the Federation certainly didn't just change just by itself.

I think the signs were there in TOS, add time, tech and a few generations and what looked like Utopia in TOS will become reality without to much trouble. I doubt anyone back then ever thought it would go quite as far or to such extremes or that if it did the resuly could be anything but beneficial. S31 might have disapproved but against a broad political consensus they could hardly do much. Besides it would also serve to make their "mission" ever more important, boosting their power and recruitment base. After the Borg incursions and the Dominion war no organisation dedicated to preserving the Federation can possibly accept a continuation of the old pacifist policies.

[brianeyci]

I think the signs were there in TOS, add time, tech and a few generations and what looked like Utopia in TOS will become reality without to much trouble.

Its just that there are so many changes, so radical that it is hard to accept the renessiance happened without a strongman.

1. Federation credits in TOS, yet we never hear of them in TNG and Picard doesn't know what money is.

2. Traders flying around in TOS, Harry Mudd is clearly human and making a profit, so he is probably Federation.

3. We see the Federation Council in TOS, only a handful of representatives from the core worlds, and a lot of military people on the Council. Fast forward to TNG, where the Federation Council is 150+ members. Maybe an explaination is that the TOS Council represented some special session for Kirk, but the expansion of the Federation Council in the TNG era jives with the demilitarization hypothesis.

4. Total loss of military discipline. The Prime Directive intepreted as a steadfast rule rather than a guideline like in Kirk's time. Trashing of heavy weapons, hand phasers becoming far less powerful, ditching of body armor (those "Agents" in TOS movies).

Over time, maybe all these reforms could have been eased in. But what about the banishment of Fed Creds?

I doubt anyone back then ever thought it would go quite as far or to such extremes or that if it did the resuly could be anything but beneficial. S31 might have disapproved but against a broad political consensus they could hardly do much.

S31 is a rogue organization, with maybe a few SF Admirals pulling the strings. They don't need political consensus to do anything.

Besides it would also serve to make their "mission" ever more important, boosting their power and recruitment base. After the Borg incursions and the Dominion war no organisation dedicated to preserving the Federation can possibly accept a continuation of the old pacifist policies.

This is probably the best argument, and it all comes down to how loyal S31 is to the Federation.

<edit>The best counter-argument to this is that your point is an oversimplification.

1. The Dominion nearly defeated the Federation because of their superior technology, not because the Federation lacked manpower and ships. Their phased polaron beams could cut through Federation shields, and if it wasn't for Sisko finding the downed Jem'Hadar ship, they might never have found a countermeasure.

The Federation has ability to produce 200 capships and 1000 smaller like Defiant class ships at UPS alone. One could argue that the significant expansion of SF from when 40 ships was a big loss to thousands is enough.

2. The Borg sent one cube, after years and years to assimilate the Federation. They obviously find the Federation uninteresting. One cube is not a mortal threat to the Federation, especially post-Dominion war beefed up Federation.

3. And of course. Victory speaks. This so-called "pacifist ideal" was what led the Federation to victory against the Dominion by helping them forge an alliance with the Klingons and Romulans.

I'm not saying I support these views. I'm saying that a Fed-loyal S31 member wouldn't just gloss over the facts and say "Borg. Dominion. Federation flawed", and could find justification in many ways.

</edit>

Brian

[CJvR]

Its just that there are so many changes, so radical that it is hard to accept the renessiance happened without a strongman.

The Feds, even in TOS, was governed by comitty like the EU or the UN. That is not a form of goverment able to decide on radical changes but it is quite able on riding "the plan" down in flames rather than altering it.

Over time, maybe all these reforms could have been eased in. But what about the banishment of Fed Creds?

Perhaps they were a temporary currency on the road to the prefect society and were disbanded when they were no longer needed.

ps: The communist Federation is one of the stupider ideas in TNG.

S31 is a rogue organization, with maybe a few SF Admirals pulling the strings. They don't need political consensus to do anything.

If there is a broad political base for a certain policy then it is hard to change that, a strongman is assassinable and it will impact greatly on policy. One consenus administrator is easily replacable without much more than a ripple.

1. The Dominion nearly defeated the Federation because of their superior technology, not because the Federation lacked manpower and ships. Their phased polaron beams could cut through Federation shields, and if it wasn't for Sisko finding the downed Jem'Hadar ship, they might never have found a countermeasure.

No that is BS. When the war started that problem had been corrected, the Doms were rather surprised about that when they assaulted DS9. Numbers were on the side of the Dominion in a big way.

The Federation has ability to produce 200 capships and 1000 smaller like Defiant class ships at UPS alone. One could argue that the significant expansion of SF from when 40 ships was a big loss to thousands is enough.

Perhaps they are, but I seriously doubt that. If they could do that so easily then they would have won on their own merits without tricking the Romulans. If they had a thousand Defiants they wouldn't get their asses kicked so badly.
Even if they could build on that scale how would they man them? The Roms noted that the Feds were having a serious recruitment problem.
Most of the expansion seem to have been made by raiding the scrapheap "This week's challenge is to build state of the art warships out of scrap!"

2. The Borg sent one cube, after years and years to assimilate the Federation. They obviously find the Federation uninteresting. One cube is not a mortal threat to the Federation, especially post-Dominion war beefed up Federation.

LOL!
Unintresting enough to require the attention of her majesty herself.
Except blasting through the Feds defences twice and almost assimilating the Federation capitol. No clearly no threat whatsoever. At least as long as Picard don't retire...

3. And of course. Victory speaks. This so-called "pacifist ideal" was what led the Federation to victory against the Dominion by helping them forge an alliance with the Klingons and Romulans.

Victory in spite of those ideals, not thanks to those ideals. Indeed without S31 the Dominion war would have ended in a horrific carnage during the frontal assault on Cardassia. Without Sisco's tricking the Romulans it would have ended in a horrific carnage during the assault on Earth. The Dominion even managed to conquer one of the Feds core worlds - Betazed!

[brianeyci]

If there is a broad political base for a certain policy then it is hard to change that, a strongman is assassinable and it will impact greatly on policy. One consenus administrator is easily replacable without much more than a ripple.

I can't argue with that. By proposing S31 assassination, I've actually refuted my own point about the strongman lol.

Okay. But certain hurdles would have required a "strongman" for brief periods. Firstly the weakening of powers of the Fed Prez. Politicians in power do not give up power to the military. There had to be a "strongman" or in this case "weakman" to start SF out on the road to total control. Maybe S31 even supported this "weakman" because he would have seemed to be proposing a stronger Federation, but in actually was making it weaker in the long run by placing decisions in the hands of the military establishment.

No that is BS. When the war started that problem had been corrected, the Doms were rather surprised about that when they assaulted DS9. Numbers were on the side of the Dominion in a big way.

Federation keeps its numbers down in peacetime. They can drastically ramp up production if they want to, as shown that one shipyard can create 200 capships and 1000 small ships a year.

Perhaps they are, but I seriously doubt that. If they could do that so easily then they would have won on their own merits without tricking the Romulans. If they had a thousand Defiants they wouldn't get their asses kicked so badly.

Like it or not, with Federation personnel at two billion and Alyeska's UPS calcs, Fed built up quickly. Also concurs with the ship figures we hear of... one fleet, the seventh, had 100 ships, while in BOBW 40 ships was a crippling blow. Maybe the thousand Defiants were piloted by Red Squad wannabes, maybe they didn't all build Defiants but built Vultures and Sabres, maybe they built 200 capships instead, etc.

Even if they could build on that scale how would they man them? The Roms noted that the Feds were having a serious recruitment problem.
Most of the expansion seem to have been made by raiding the scrapheap "This week's challenge is to build state of the art warships out of scrap!"

Two billion SF personnel according to Statistical. That is not a ludicrious figure by any means. If Federation would surrender after 900 billion casualties, and we assume maybe 50% casualties (a low-end since I can easily see the Federation surrendering far before then), then around two trillion Federation citizens. Two billion out of two trillion in the military is not a lot.

LOL!
Unintresting enough to require the attention of her majesty herself.
Except blasting through the Feds defences twice and almost assimilating the Federation capitol. No clearly no threat whatsoever. At least as long as Picard don't retire...

Writer's intent aside, the Vinculum which is on every Borg vessel has the exact same purpose as the Borg Queen, to "bring order to chaos". Couple that with the Borg Queen not being unique (she has died), and we have that the Borg so-called Queen is just a walking Vinculum.

You may counter by saying that the Borg Queen orders Borg around. But then I say that any individual unsupressed voice in a collective automatically becomes a leader, at least to the Borg around her that can hear her.

Borg Queen was used to try and seduce Data, and try and seduce Picard. Since it performs the same function as Vinculum, its just a walking Vinculum, created for a specific purpose. Writer's intent for the Borg Queen to be a "Queen" aside, the title means nothing and is just a Federation name for her.

You should listen to Walper more. Then you'd understand more cool Borg facts like this .

Victory in spite of those ideals, not thanks to those ideals. Indeed without S31 the Dominion war would have ended in a horrific carnage during the frontal assault on Cardassia. Without Sisco's tricking the Romulans it would have ended in a horrific carnage during the assault on Earth. The Dominion even managed to conquer one of the Feds core worlds - Betazed!

Yeah I know. Just laying out the land for how a S31 loyalist could justify supporting the Federation.

Brian

[CJvR]

Federation keeps its numbers down in peacetime. They can drastically ramp up production if they want to, as shown that one shipyard can create 200 capships and 1000 small ships a year.

If the Feds had yard capacity to build 1200+ ships/ year and each ship had a service life of about 50 years SF would number around 60000 ships! If they didn't use all that yard capacity then it would be a monsterous waste of resources to maintain it. There hardly is any civilian market so there isn't much slack in the system. Also with a SF of such size the 2400 Dominion reinforcements vanished by the Prophets would hardly have had the decisive effect predicted.
I remain very sceptical to that figure.

Like it or not, with Federation personnel at two billion and Alyeska's UPS calcs, Fed built up quickly. Also concurs with the ship figures we hear of... one fleet, the seventh, had 100 ships, while in BOBW 40 ships was a crippling blow.

Two billion isn't that much when you wage war on a interstellar scale 0,1% of the population. Besides the Roms claimed that SF had recruitment problems, either lack of volunteers or lack of skilled volunteers. If the Federal citizens didn't want to defend the Federation there isn't much SF could do other than drafting suitable candidates for the war. With such a low number serving ther should have been plenty of fresh blood available but there wasn't. I also suspect that the officer corps wasn't able to expand much, many of the military minded officers would have been lost in the carnage of the opening campaigns and the casualties remained high throughout the war.
The Feds have had months to concentrate their strenght for the Dominion showdown, the Borg attack came out of the blue, or perhaps out of the black. The Feds were better prepared the second time but still not prepared enough. If the next cube is blasted into razorblades well short of Earth by non-Picard Fed defences I will gladly admitt the Feds got it right.

You should listen to Walper more. Then you'd understand more cool Borg facts like this.

Borg coolness diminished severely when they were transformed into pussy-whipped zombie-vampires.

Just laying out the land for how a S31 loyalist could justify supporting the Federation.

Oh they could easy find an excuse for that, Civil war is one of the worst disasters that can strike a nation. They can however find plenty of arguments for jumping the other way as well. Perhaps they will split down the middle trying to do both.

[brianeyci]

If the Feds had yard capacity to build 1200+ ships/ year and each ship had a service life of about 50 years SF would number around 60000 ships! If they didn't use all that yard capacity then it would be a monsterous waste of resources to maintain it. There hardly is any civilian market so there isn't much slack in the system. Also with a SF of such size the 2400 Dominion reinforcements vanished by the Prophets would hardly have had the decisive effect predicted.
I remain very sceptical to that figure.

I stated that the Fed ramps up construction in wartime. A good explaination is that the Fed cannot afford to maintain 60k ships over fifty years, so they keep numbers in the low hundreds during peacetime and build up to thousands in wartime. The figures are concrete, through Alyeska's analysis and scaling of UPS. Just because the Federation does not use maximum shipbuilding capacity, does not mean the figures are any less false. The Feds can build 200 capships and 1000 smaller ships from just one shipyard, they just don't do it all the time for whatever reason (and there are many that come to mind).

Besides the Roms claimed that SF had recruitment problems, either lack of volunteers or lack of skilled volunteers.

Herein lies the problem. If this had been Sisko or Picard, fine. A Romulan? What context did they claim this in? Is there any possible way of the Romulan knowing SF classified information? What episode was this in?

If the next cube is blasted into razorblades well short of Earth by non-Picard Fed defences I will gladly admitt the Feds got it right.

We only know of 20 ships at ST:FC. If 20 can do heavy damage to outer hull, a hundred should be able to destroy it. Thousands? Depends where the cube is. And no, the Feds don't have it right. They should fortify Earth, and never have despite it being the seat of the Federation power and coming under mortal attack over and over.

Perhaps they will split down the middle trying to do both.

As I hope so as well.

Brian

[CJvR]

I stated that the Fed ramps up construction in wartime. A good explaination is that the Fed cannot afford to maintain 60k ships over fifty years, so they keep numbers in the low hundreds during peacetime and build up to thousands in wartime. The figures are concrete, through Alyeska's analysis and scaling of UPS. Just because the Federation does not use maximum shipbuilding capacity, does not mean the figures are any less false. The Feds can build 200 capships and 1000 smaller ships from just one shipyard, they just don't do it all the time for whatever reason (and there are many that come to mind).

You cant just press a button and expect an effective warfleet to magicaly appear. You need a huge infrastructure to build ships and you need a huge pool of officers and specialists to crew it. A peacetime fleet of a few hundreds would never be able to absorb the yard capacity you claim, you effectively have a construction infrastructure designed to support a fleet of 60-100 000 and you only use it at about 5% capacity. Besides why would SF maintain such monsterous excess yard capacity at a huge cost when they would have been far better of with more ships to start with. Also from the composition of the SF fleets it seemed more like they were raiding the scrapheaps rather than constructing new ships.

Herein lies the problem. If this had been Sisko or Picard, fine. A Romulan? What context did they claim this in? Is there any possible way of the Romulan knowing SF classified information? What episode was this in?

It was the episode when Sisko & Garak dragged the Romulans into the war. It was called "In the pale moonlight" IIRC. Sisko & co was trying to convince the Senator, specializing in Dominion & war intel, to join the war but he refused and taunted them a bit with their crappy situation and threw the recruitment problem right in Benjamin's face and Sisko didn't deny it.

Thousands? Depends where the cube is. And no, the Feds don't have it right. They should fortify Earth, and never have despite it being the seat of the Federation power and coming under mortal attack over and over.

In a Galaxy crawling with undetectable cloaking devices and where one deadly menace is faster than your frontier fleets it is criminal negligence not to defend your vital coresystems. Even the third rate hostile Breens came knocking on the door one day...

[brianeyci]

You cant just press a button and expect an effective warfleet to magicaly appear. You need a huge infrastructure to build ships and you need a huge pool of officers and specialists to crew it. A peacetime fleet of a few hundreds would never be able to absorb the yard capacity you claim, you effectively have a construction infrastructure designed to support a fleet of 60-100 000 and you only use it at about 5% capacity. Besides why would SF maintain such monsterous excess yard capacity at a huge cost when they would have been far better of with more ships to start with. Also from the composition of the SF fleets it seemed more like they were raiding the scrapheaps rather than constructing new ships.

Alyeska's UPS calcs are undeniable. A construction capacity of two hundred capships to a thousand small ships for one shipyard is easily met if they need to ferry a shitload of resources from one planet to another. Like you said, warp is slow, and transport ships may make some of that slack up.

For the officers point, officers in peacetime are seen doing such routine duties as "aligning the shield array" or some bullshit. Crewmen never seem to be around in TNG except as security. The ratio of officers to crewmen seems to be extremely lopsided, and would explain how SF was able to expand that fast through personnel transfers.

And the huge cost is unsupported. What we have is essentially a floating building in space. If it is not building anything, why should there be any huge cost at all except to maintain the construction yard?

It was the episode when Sisko & Garak dragged the Romulans into the war. It was called "In the pale moonlight" IIRC. Sisko & co was trying to convince the Senator, specializing in Dominion & war intel, to join the war but he refused and taunted them a bit with their crappy situation and threw the recruitment problem right in Benjamin's face and Sisko didn't deny it.

Well.

Romulan to me : "You have recruitment problems eh?"

Me not wanting to aggravate/argue with the Romulan because I want to get her on my side : "So, do you want to help?"

In a Galaxy crawling with undetectable cloaking devices and where one deadly menace is faster than your frontier fleets it is criminal negligence not to defend your vital coresystems. Even the third rate hostile Breens came knocking on the door one day...

Yes. Thankfully not the whole Federation is unfortified. If an archaeological outpost with no strategic significance can be defended by a couple of phaser arrays and perhaps photon torpedoes and theatre shielding, other planets will be as well.

Brian

[CJvR]

A construction capacity of two hundred capships to a thousand small ships for one shipyard is easily met if they need to ferry a shitload of resources from one planet to another.

Yes, running a star nation like the UFP would require a huge spacelift capacity under normal conditions. But we never see any sign of this transport infrastructure actually existing, transports and liners are hardly ever seen so where are they? Also remember that civilian shipyards are not automaticaly able to build military ships.

The ratio of officers to crewmen seems to be extremely lopsided, and would explain how SF was able to expand that fast through personnel transfers.

Yes, except we don't detect any change in officer/crew ratios during the war.
I think SF have a much bigger peacetime organisation which would better match it's infrastructure.

And the huge cost is unsupported. What we have is essentially a floating building in space. If it is not building anything, why should there be any huge cost at all except to maintain the construction yard?

Buy an extra car and leave it permanently parked and unused and you will get some insight into why it cost. Also if you don't want to start your buildup by training yardcrews you will need to maintain it manned.

Me not wanting to aggravate/argue with the Romulan because I want to get her on my side

You wan't to admitt you are getting your ass kicked in front of a potential ally?

[brianeyci]

Yes, running a star nation like the UFP would require a huge spacelift capacity under normal conditions. But we never see any sign of this transport infrastructure actually existing, transports and liners are hardly ever seen so where are they? Also remember that civilian shipyards are not automaticaly able to build military ships.

Well, we know from TOS that a person can buy passage to another planet. Civilian shipyards are not able to automatically build military ships, but military shipyards couldn't build less complex civilian ships?

Yes, except we don't detect any change in officer/crew ratios during the war. I think SF have a much bigger peacetime organisation which would better match it's infrastructure.

Certainly AR-559 troops were majority non-comissioned. Teaching someone to fire a phaser is far easier than teaching someone to run a nuclear reactor, but I don't see how it is not doable, particularly since SF permeates every facet of civilian life and they could pull in civilian specialists whenever they wanted from anywhere.

Buy an extra car and leave it permanently parked and unused and you will get some insight into why it cost. Also if you don't want to start your buildup by training yardcrews you will need to maintain it manned.

Enough personnel in SF to accomplish that.

You wan't to admitt you are getting your ass kicked in front of a potential ally?

Maybe, but maybe Sisko was being coy and didn't want to argue with the Romulans. Say that there was no personnel problem. Now if there was no personnel problem, would Sisko dispute it? No of course not, because it is in his favor to let the Romulans think you have personnel problems so they join your side. Remember the rationale was "you're next", and along those lines Sisko would want to convince the Romulans the Federation would eventually lose without their help and thus Dominion would turn on the Romulans after.

Brian

[Petrosjko]

Very nice, Knife. I wish you had read the NF series, because I would love to see where Calhoun would fit into this picture.

The Bozeman thing had me confused as well, I will admit. Do carry on, you've definitely got me interested.

[Alyeska]

A couple things about my ship construction estimates.

The size and birth estimates rely on some assumptions. Some are well grounded, some are bassed on logic that may not apply to the Federation. My ship construction time estimates come from purely canon sources.

My construction time estimates are actualy very conservative numbers. I also said 1,000 little ships OR 200 big ships. Not both. I made a point of saying that the capacity depends on size of ship.

Last of all, my numbers are a theoretical maximum for war footing. It was stated in multiple DS9 episodes that the Federation was still reactivating its shipyards as of shortly before the Romulans entered the war.

Early in the war the bulk of the Federation fleet was made up of older designs. Excelsiors and Miranda's along with variants of those era ships, some active fleet, some reactivated from reserve depots. The shipyards had to spend time both reactivating old ships and building new ones. It wasn't until near the middle of the second year of the war that the newer ship classes really started being prevalent in the fleet.

We know the Federation had years of warning as well as the need to replace both Borg and Klingon fighting losses. A fair estimate of 4 years to activate all of the Federations shipyards for purely military purposes seems a logical one.

The Federation has a nice industry, but it takes time to gear it towards a war footing.

[CJvR]

200 or 1000, that sounds more reasonable. Far more reasonable than the "cannon" construction time of a Defiant in a cave in the Badlands - I don't dispute it I only find it amusingly unrealistic, industrial replicators & transporters must work miracles.

[Knife]

200 or 1000, that sounds more reasonable. Far more reasonable than the "cannon" construction time of a Defiant in a cave in the Badlands - I don't dispute it I only find it amusingly unrealistic, industrial replicators & transporters must work miracles.

The bigger question is why the 'sleeping industry' that the Feds have going?

[CJvR]

The bigger question is why the 'sleeping industry' that the Feds have going?

What sleeping industry is that?

[Knife]

The bigger question is why the 'sleeping industry' that the Feds have going?

What sleeping industry is that?

If Alyeska is right, and the Feds have an industrial capacity that can chug out 200 capships a year and yet most of their fleet pre Dominion War comprises of ship designs over 50 years old if not 100 years old, why have the industrial capacity?

They have all these ship yards that need to switch over to 'warships' but where the hell are all the 'civilian' ships? Basically they have built and maintain an industrial capacity that they hardly ever use. A 'sleeping industry'.

[Alyeska]

200 or 1000, that sounds more reasonable. Far more reasonable than the "cannon" construction time of a Defiant in a cave in the Badlands - I don't dispute it I only find it amusingly unrealistic, industrial replicators & transporters must work miracles.

If you read my essay, you will see what I was talking about in regards to building ships. I estimated that the room required for a Utopia Planitia space station to build a Galaxy class ship could be dedicated towards building up to three Sabre class ships.

So if you have the capability to build 5 Galaxy class starships, you could build 2 Galaxies and 9 Sabres.

[Knife]

200 or 1000, that sounds more reasonable. Far more reasonable than the "cannon" construction time of a Defiant in a cave in the Badlands - I don't dispute it I only find it amusingly unrealistic, industrial replicators & transporters must work miracles.

If you read my essay, you will see what I was talking about in regards to building ships. I estimated that the room required for a Utopia Planitia space station to build a Galaxy class ship could be dedicated towards building up to three Sabre class ships.

So if you have the capability to build 5 Galaxy class starships, you could build 2 Galaxies and 9 Sabres.

Since you're hear, what do you think of the story?

[Alyeska]

Haven't read it yet.

[CJvR]

I estimated that the room required for a Utopia Planitia space station to build a Galaxy class ship could be dedicated towards building up to three Sabre class ships.

Probably, provided volume is the limiting factor here.

[brianeyci]

I think we severely underestimate the civilian necessity for transport ships. Sure, planets can be self-sufficient, but in an interstellar empire a lot of reasons come to mind for a large number of ships. Official travel, vacations, civilian travel, cargo transport.

Let's say the Federation has the ability to shuttle around 1% of its population around at a time. So, 1% out of two trillion is 20 billion. That's a lot of transports.

Brian

[CJvR]

I do not underestimate the need for civilian transportation. I just note that it is never shown or even mentioned.

Now the reason for this is mainly the SFX budget but portraying the supposed socialist utopia that they turned the Federation into would have been hard so they didn't.

[brianeyci]

I do not underestimate the need for civilian transportation. I just note that it is never shown or even mentioned.

Well. Pre-Federation in Enterprise, they have a whole episode with Travis and his family freighter. They tried to rip off the Cantina scene with McCoy. They did it again in TNG The Gambit, where Troi and Riker tried to find out what happened by posing as civilian off-worlders. And the Hansens had their own ship, although it had the LCARS a common interface means nothing (hello microsoft) and the Hansens were clearly civilian and not Starfleet. Maquis are not Starfleet and are civilian, yet they possess capable long-range craft that can be turned into attack ships just by adding some phaser strips and photon launchers. Vulcan has defense ships capable of defeating at least one Romulan Warbird and three escorts, independent of Starfleet. Sisko's squeeze in DS9 was the captain of a freighter, clearly civilian and not Starfleet.

That's just what I remember, there's probably more.

Brian

[Knife]

Chapter 4


Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in finishing it.
--Will Rogers




Helena IV.

Admiral Leyton enjoyed the astonished look of the young Federation Captain when the Enterprise hailed the planet and Leyton himself answered. The small, petit, blonde woman had apparently expected someone else, possible Maxwell, and not the ‘mastermind’ of the rebellion. He was glad, though, that Pressman’s prediction on what ship the Chief of Operations would send was correct. A lot of planning had gone into this and out of the hundreds of ships in the fleet; their plan relied on them sending one of six ships, Enterprise being one of them.

“Leyton.” The woman on the comm. screen started. “This is Captain Shelby of the USS Enterprise. We have brought an ambassador as you asked and are awaiting further instructions.”

Admiral Leyton smiled a sly smile at her stuffy demeanor and said, “Captain, welcome. I hate to jump immediately to business but such are the times. I’m sure you’ve already noted the transport inhibitors along the northern continent. These are here for both of our safety. No tricks and all that.

We request that the Ambassador take a shuttle and land at the coordinates we will supply.”

The woman on screen seemed hesitant to the demands. “Sending the Ambassador in those conditions is, problematic. I request that we are able to send a small security team to ensure his safety.”

Leyton’s sly smile blossomed into a broad grin, “Certainly, Captain. Stand by for coordinates and we’ll track your progress down. Shall we agree to an ETA of an hour?”

To the rebel Admiral’s delight, Captain Shelby’s gaze turned off screen as she received instructions from another before answering, “Agreed. Shelby out.”

*************************************************************

On the bridge of the Enterprise Shelby was still suspicious and she moved away from Picard. She was furious that she had to look weak in front of Leyton by deferring to Picard on such an important decision. She walked to the tactical station and asked Lt. Wallace his opinion on the tactical situation.

“Well Captain,” he said. “Scans show no ships in the system. There might be smaller vessels on the surface or hiding behind a moon or planet but even then, it would take time to get to our position so we would have plenty of warning.

The transport inhibitors are a double edged sword, though. They’ll prevent the rebels from springing any surprises but the rebels do control them so they could shut them down at will. We won’t be doing any transporter operations though, even if we use isolinear tags, those inhibitor fields are too strong to get a lock.

Maybe if we had a tag the size of a shuttle pod, but I doubt the rebels will let us carry one into negotiations.” He ended with a sarcastic gesture.

Though Shelby was not impressed with his sense of humor, she was impressed with his grasp of tactics which was good since he was the Tactical Officer. She thought about the situation for a bit then looked back at Lt. Wallace.

“Take a Security Team to the Shuttle Bay. You’ll escort Ambassador Picard to the negotiations. You are to be with him at all times, then escort him back to the Enterprise when he is done. You’re right; our situation here is good so I’m more worried about the situation groundside. We don’t need a hostage situation.”

“Aye Captain.” He responded and then left the bridge to prepare.

*************************************************************

30 minutes later, a sleek, wedge shaped shuttle eased out of the hanger and maneuvered towards the dirty, brown ball of Helena. Inside the usually large shuttle, space was cramped. The Chief Pilot of the Enterprise handled the craft while Lt. Wallace watching every move.

Behind them, Ambassador Picard sat, eyes closed in quiet meditation, preparing himself for the coming negotiations. In the back cargo hold by the main hatch, six Star Fleet Security Personnel sat in drop seats. The six were Wallace’s best men, all being veterans of the Dominion War, known to be cool under fire and having been on various First Contact Missions. Wallace knew he could count on these men to not be provoked by rebellious scum but if the bio-waste hit the air circulator, he could count on them to give one hell of a fight too.

Lt. Wallace supervised the Chief Pilot as he guided the executive shuttle down into the atmosphere of the planet and drove towards the coordinates given to them from the enemy. The ride was bumpy, even with the expert skills of the pilot, the planet being just this side of habitable of a Class M planet.

The shuttle level off at about a thousand meters from the ground and sped towards a plain to the north. In the middle of the plain was an old mining refinery complex, probably two hundred years old and quite abandoned. It was a good choice for the rebels to make a ramshackle base, thought Wallace.

The decent to the surface had taken about twenty minutes and they appeared to be about five minutes out from the complex, so it seemed that they’d be just a few minutes early to the meeting. A slight surprise for the rebels, not that Wallace expected the rebels to be quickly hiding tanks or grounded starships. These people may be traitors but they were still trained Starfleet personnel, and in that they were not stupid.

With a crackle of static, the shuttles audio speakers came to life and startled just about everyone in the cabin.

“Enterprise shuttle, this is Helena approach. Maintain decent and speed and change course to 355 for landing.” The voice said in a neutral detached way.

“Copy.” Replied the Chief Pilot.

Wallace watched with interest as the shuttle streaked towards the complex. It took the pilot little more than three minutes to approach and land the shuttle in a large hangar complex. The hangar itself, while large, was virtually empty. Only two old shuttle pods and a Class 9 shuttle rested in the cavernous space.

Even before the shuttle landed, Lt. Wallace could see a man standing at the far end of the hangar and as the executive shuttle touched down, he moved aft to inform his detail to spread out in a defensive formation and to keep a close eye on the rebel.

As the landing ramp dropped, four of the security detail jumped out and moved slowly yet surely around the shuttle, scanning the surroundings as they came. Behind him, Lt. Wallace and Ambassador Picard came with the last two soldiers behind them. The pilot would stay with the shuttle just in case.

The formation of men approached the lone rebel in the hangar. The young rebel was clean cut and lean. He wore his Starfleet uniform, a fact that raised the ire of Lt. Wallace, and seemed almost harmless in his demeanor.

When the entourage of the Ambassador came to the stop in front of the young rebel, the man said, “Welcome to Helena Ambassador Picard. I am Lt. Hathaway.”

He then turned to Lt. Wallace and continued, “Lieutenant.” He gazed past Wallace to the Security Detail. “Gentlemen. I would ask you to relax, as you are in no danger here, but some how I expect that you won’t. Please, this way. The Admiral is waiting.”

As the young rebel turned towards the door and the group began to walk again, Wallace noticed that the voice of the traitorous Lt. was the same voice of the Helena approach. Perhaps Starfleet’s worries that the rebels had some vast network of people were not founded if Leyton only came here with this man. Certainly there was no evidence that large numbers of people inhabited this complex.

Lt. Hathaway led the group down through the corridors and tunnels of the old refinery. He had a bemused smile on his face, one that Lt. Wallace caught pieces of from time to time. But there was still no hint of ambush or treachery so Wallace kept walking. If Picard had any suspicions he kept them to himself stayed right next to Wallace.

The group eventually made it to a large cargo door and Hathaway stopped in front of it. “The Admiral is inside. If it makes you feel better, your security detail may accompany you inside, Ambassador. I’ll take my leave now but I’ll be back when you are ready to return to your shuttle.”

Picard put on his warmest smile and said, “Thank you Lieutenant.”

The Ambassador opened the door and allowed two of the security guards to enter first, then walked in. The cargo room was empty, minus a table and some chairs. Sitting at one of the chairs was Admiral Leyton himself.

The tall, lean former Admiral and mastermind of a coup attempt sat in a relaxed way as if he had little worry from the six armed men accompanying the Ambassador. He turned his head when they entered and motioned for Picard to take a seat.

Picard was just sitting down when the cargo door closed and Lt. Hathaway walked away to let the politician start to negotiate.

*************************************************************

After two hours, Picard was becoming worried that this negotiation session was nothing more than a stalling tactic. As a diplomat, Jean-Luc knew that it took hours to accomplish small things, but Leyton had spent the last two hours doing nothing but drawing Picard into one discussion to another, each with out any sense of resolution.

They had started out with the pleasantries, Leyton asking politely about small matters on Earth, Andor, and other major centers of the Federations, since he’d been in prison for some time now. They had then moved on to the pressing concerns of the rebels. Leyton’s demands seemed simple enough from the outset, in fact Picard could not really blame the man for what he wanted though the Federation Council would never agree to it.

Put simply, Leyton wanted open elections. For many years now, the Council had voted for the President from a small pool of Council members. It was enacted as to be a quick transfer from one administration to another in times of crisis that had plagued the Federation as of late, but it also had the effect of having the same powerbrokers in the Council to become the Chief Executive.

Leyton, it seemed, was convinced that such a closely nit group of people running all functions of the government was strangling the liberties of the Federation, not to mention leaving the Federation open to various enemies. Leyton had moved from that issue to the issue of separating Starfleet into two entities before Picard had much of a chance to address the political issue.

Leyton explained that it was abhorrent that Starfleet was arranged still, after four major conflicts in a little over a decade, for exploration more so than defense. He went on to complain about the expansion of Starfleet into civilian areas and again Picard was forced to agree with the rebellious Admiral.

“Too many Starfleet uniforms are appearing in places where Starfleet uniforms are not suppose to be.” He said. “How many Starfleet personnel are at the Daystrom Institute? And why? The Institute is, or was, a civilian interest before the Council nationalized it and slowly replaced all the people there with Academy graduates.”

Picard leaned forward, “Admiral, you of all people should realize the education level of Starfleet Academy graduates. The Academy has a solid record of engineering, one that is well suited for the R&D of the Daystrom Institute. And I seem to recall that you had little problem with a Starfleet uniform on every street corner on Earth.”

Leyton’s expressions, which until now had ranged from neutral to slightly jovial, now went grim and sad. “That was war, Jean-Luc. There was a threat that the Council refused to see or act on. What threat is there at Daystrom? Why is every facet of our lives funneled through some committee or another from the Council? Why is everything in the Federation ran from the Council except for the main thing they should be running, our defense?”

Picard tried to ease the man, “The Council intervenes where it is needed, Admiral. You know this.”

The tall man pinned the Ambassador with a gaze, “Did you come here, Jean-Luc, with any concessions. Or was your mission truly to talk an aged, convicted felon, out of a foolish act?”

“I have come by your bidding, Leyton. Starfleet Command wishes to hear your grievances as does the Council. We all wish to prevent anything bad from developing from this misunderstanding.” Picard said.

Leyton leaned back in his chair and Jean-Luc heard a soft sigh. “I see you have come without any concessions. That is a shame.” Leyton said as he tapped his communicator.

The small device beeped a few times rapidly, then a female voice responded. “Yes Admiral?”

Leyton, still slightly slumped in his chair ordered, “Inform the Enterprise that the Ambassador has finished for now and will be returning shortly.”

The female voice acknowledged but Leyton didn’t seem to notice as he turned away from Picard in a brooding silence. Picard sat there for a few moments, not believing that the negotiations would end so abruptly. Eventually, acknowledging defeat for the moment, Ambassador Picard rose from his chair and move to the cargo door. Two of the Security Detail just in front of him with Lt. Wallace and the rest behind.

When the door opened, Lt. Hathaway stood there to meet them and return them to the shuttle bay. Picard was slightly surprised to see the Lt. so soon and then figured that the negotiations were monitored so the Lt. knew to be here at this point. He was further surprised to see that the Lt. had changed out of his uniform.

The lithe man now was dressed in some sort of black jumpsuit with an equipment vest and belt on as well. He still didn’t seem armed but was still sporting a bemused smirk on his face as he eyed the entourage.

“This way, Ambassador.” He said simply.

Picard wasn’t sure if they were taking the same route out as they did in, the corridors and tunnels of the refinery seeming the same. But he figured that they were about half way back to the hangar when the Lt. suddenly stopped and turned back toward them.

“I’m sorry, Ambassador.” Was all he said.

Picard had about three seconds to think about what the Lt. was sorry about when the hallway erupted in weapons fire. Pulses of phaser fire shot down the hall from behind the Lieutenant and tore into the Security Detail. It happened so suddenly that not a single man was able to draw a weapon to return fire.

Picard looked around at a loose pile of men who were charged to protect him, including Lt. Wallace. He didn’t know if they were stunned or if they were dead. Angry, he quickly turned his head back to the traitorous Hathaway to see four men in similar garb moving out of the shadows behind the Lt, all with phaser rifles aimed at either him or the bodies now littering the floor.

*************************************************************

Leyton waited in the cargo room for a few minutes waiting for his staff to notify him when Picard was taken. A soft side of him had wished that Picard did come willing to make some concessions. That all the plans he, Pressman and Maxwell had made would not be necessary. The hard side of Admiral Leyton knew that the peaceful way would never have been an option. That the politicians in Starfleet and the Council would never give up power voluntarily.

He was still in that thought when his comm. badge chirped again and Lt. Commander Fell reported that the initial operation was complete and awaiting for his order to continue with the operation.

Admiral Leyton waited a few seconds, pondering the consequences of what was to come before saying, “Operation is a go. Send the signal.”