The vs. of Values and Tactics

[Tommy J]

I don't know if this has ever been addressed before, but here it goes.

In a battle between the Fed and the Empire, assuming equal fire power, shielding, technology etc.

In terms of pure tactics and values who wins? Does the Federation's values of being 'good' defeat 'evil'?

--------------------------

The reason this occured to me if anyone's curious is I saw this movie last night, 'Fatherland'. In the movie it depicts Nazi Germany in about 1965 as if they had won in WWII. The premise of the movie is that eventually the leadership would change to good, cover-up the atrocities, but in the end would have lost.

[brianeyci]

Useless op. If the Federation had SW weapons and technology, it is no longer Federation. In short, you have to change "Federation" to mean something else entirely.

Brian

[Tommy J]

Useless op. If the Federation had SW weapons and technology, it is no longer Federation. In short, you have to change "Federation" to mean something else entirely.

Brian

Yes you're right of course. You also have to equal out the numerical superority as well.

It's a common Trekkie tactic to claim that good always triumphs over evil.

I contend differently. When you have an enemy that essentially will committ any atrocity, any terror attack, any mass extermination -- regardless that we'd all like to believe that good wins in the end -- in reality it doesn't.

[Jay]

Imperial Commander: "TK117, take your platoon up on to that rise and give us cover fire. TK254, set antipersonel mines along the adjoining canyons, forcing the Feds to blunder into TK117's trap. TM446 have your men ready with the E-Webs. TN335 ready the nerve gas...


Federation commander: "Chaaaa-aaaaarge!!!!!!!!"


It'll be a slaughter. Wholesale. Empire 1 federation 0

[YT300000]

Does the Federation's values of being 'good' defeat 'evil'?

Yes, in much the same way the wholesome goodness of the United States crushed the evil of global communism within a month of the start of the Vietnam war.

[Stravo]

I have always maintained that TOS officers were hard chargers, great commanders and knew their bloody business. They held the Klingons at bay, the Romulans, the Gorns, etc. They knew when and how to fight. Some of the great military genuises come from this era, Garth, Kirk, etc. The TOS era Federation's first impulse was to attack (Balance of Terror, The Arena, Space Amoeba, Doomsday Device) the TNG era's first, second and third impulse is to talk.

TNG is another story altogether. The officer corps are classically trained frustrated teachers. ANy commander that shows an inkling of military acumen is usually shunned or looked at oddly (Jellico, the Captain in 'The Wounded') Look at their reaction to a simple war game scenario. Picard was bemused and Riker treated it semi seriously but no one felt it was absolutely neccessary despite the fact that the Borg handed them their asses only a season before and the other powers were manuvering sensing weakness from the Federation.

TNG era Star Trek officers would die a horrible death at the hands of an Imperial commander. TOS era would most likely either put up a damned good fight or win as TOS commanders (the great ones anyway) tend to play outside the rules, think outsode the box, Imperial commanders are more rigid thinkers.

[NecronLord]

I'm with Stavro here. With no fear of Imperial Retribution (IE, an alternate government) there would be mass defections from the Empire. Loyalty by Tarkin Doctrine isn't loyalty at all. If it was the TOS officers, I have little doubt that the Empire would be caned. Hard.

Adding in the poor militrisation (Less than one proper warship per planet for the last estimate I saw - The TOS Federation seemed to produce ships as fast as possible, and though the same is true of it, this is more likely due to its rapid rate of colonisation and expansion, an excuse the Empire lacks) and comparative incompetance of the Empire, {See Death Star 2 Fiasco} its ranking officers being promoted on 'noble family' lines or politiking, hell, even the likes of Thrawn, and the few oeher competant Imperial officers are likely to defect, given that they generally served the empire because it was the established regime, not any ideological attachment, haven't, IMO, got a prayer. Kirk vs Ozzel doesn't really bear consideration with equal ships.

Bereft of its massive technological advantage, the Empire is a despotism lead by an incompetant mystic (whose powers actually work, true) who surrounds himself with hangers on too terrified to give him an opinion, implements racist and aristocratic policies that keep large amounts of talent out, and is held up by little more than the inertia from the days of the Galactic Republic.

Look how quickly the Empire fell apart after the death of Palpatine. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

TNG federation is a completely different kettle of fish, true...

[Darth Wong]

I have always maintained that TOS officers were hard chargers, great commanders and knew their bloody business. They held the Klingons at bay, the Romulans, the Gorns, etc.

Was that because of their skill, or because of the incompetence of their enemies? One of Kirk's "great victories" came only after he allowed a diplomatic party (and her bodyguard) to freely roam what should have been classified areas of his ship, and failed to put them under constant surveillance. And let's not even discuss his stunning incompetence in ST6, or the demonstrated pitiful Klingon border security in that same movie.

[NecronLord]

Was that because of their skill, or because of the incompetence of their enemies? One of Kirk's "great victories" came only after he allowed a diplomatic party (and her bodyguard) to freely roam what should have been classified areas of his ship, and failed to put them under constant surveillance. And let's not even discuss his stunning incompetence in ST6, or the demonstrated pitiful Klingon border security in that same movie.

And yet... The incompetance of their new enemy is even greater... "I'll use myself as bait in a trap" Palpatine... "We'll preform combat manouvers within two lengths or so of what is effectively a planet's surface while under heavy bombardment from an enemy fleet. No. Combat Bridges are for loosers, we are invulnerable" Piett and of course, "I know, we'll jump in right on top of them, manage to warn them, and destroy three out of nine of our own escorts while we're at it" Ozzel don't fill me with confidence.

The few exceptions to the rule of Imperial Incompetance are to be found in the EU, and I can't name one of them that's really particularly loyal to the New Order.

Hell, wasn't the Galaxy Gun destoyed by R2-D2 or something?

[Petrosjko]

The few exceptions to the rule of Imperial Incompetance are to be found in the EU, and I can't name one of them that's really particularly loyal to the New Order.

Thrawn was loyal, just out in the woods. So far as we know Zsinj was loyal, until Palps cacked it at Endor.

Thrawn vs. Kirk on a level playing field would be interesting, somewhat akin to Kirk vs. Spock in terms of logic vs. intuition.

[Crown]

The few exceptions to the rule of Imperial Incompetance are to be found in the EU, and I can't name one of them that's really particularly loyal to the New Order.

Thrawn was loyal, just out in the woods. So far as we know Zsinj was loyal, until Palps cacked it at Endor.

Thrawn vs. Kirk on a level playing field would be interesting, somewhat akin to Kirk vs. Spock in terms of logic vs. intuition.

God, Thrawn vs Kirk has been done before, many, many times. It usually goes like this; Kirk is a tactical genius. Darth Wong; REMEMBER STAR TREK 2? *sounds of crickets chirpping* ...

[NecronLord]

Last I heard, Thrawn was loyal because there was no other viable Galactic Government, and he knew he could hardly go and set up on his own while Palps was around. His respect for Palpatine was minimal, to the point of actually defying the wizened mystic to his face.

In any case, the Federation never managed to loose two of their largest ships when a goddamned maintainance droid took control of one of the ship's computers, nor managed to loose not one but two secure projects to a guy who went in all guns blazing (Katarn, stealing the Death Star plans and then sabotaging the Dark Trooper operation) with only the barest of latent force powers at his disposal.

Then of course, there is the Daala incident, letting another barely equipped band steal another super-weapon...

And of course, an all time favourite, Mr. Tarkin: "No, don't launch the fighters to defend this non-battle tested space station they made off with the plans for, which may have a weakness? There is a weakness? Don't launch the fighters immediately, let my underling take three fighters on his own initiative... And no, don't have my ship standing by."

Or Mr Vader... "Did your men deactivate the hyperdrive on the Mellenium Falcon?"

Minion: "Yes My Lord, but... couldn't we have just had the stormtroopers wait inside the ship with their weapons on stun? I mean, we did anticipate that they'd manage to reach their ship and get aboard... Why take the additional risk?"

Vader: "Shit."

I hate to say it, but off the top of my head, Thrawn is the only Imperial Commander I'd trust to run a goddamn Village Fair, never mind a starship. And even he slipped up now and then.

In comparison, the only time I can think of the TOS feds getting a superweapon stolen, it way by an armed assault from a crew of super-men, and even then, they managed to hide it for hours or days afterward.

[consequences]

Last I heard, Thrawn was loyal because there was no other viable Galactic Government, and he knew he could hardly go and set up on his own while Palps was around. His respect for Palpatine was minimal, to the point of actually defying the wizened mystic to his face.

In any case, the Federation never managed to loose two of their largest ships when a goddamned maintainance droid took control of one of the ship's computers, nor managed to loose not one but two secure projects to a guy who went in all guns blazing (Katarn, stealing the Death Star plans and then sabotaging the Dark Trooper operation) with only the barest of latent force powers at his disposal.

*cough* M5 incident(other notable incidents would all be TNG or later) *cough*

Although to be fair, you haven't even scratched the surface of Imperial stupidity in the EU. 'Dur, lets let Skywalkers droid stick with him, and not take it apart down to the base programming to find that he's replaced half the droid's memory with the WD codes, hyuck'.

[NecronLord]

*cough* M5 incident(other notable incidents would all be TNG or later) *cough*

I'm afraid I'm not aware of that one.

Although to be fair, you haven't even scratched the surface of Imperial stupidity in the EU.

I long ago stopped reading the EU, except for things that get a high review on this board.

'Dur, lets let Skywalkers droid stick with him, and not take it apart down to the base programming to find that he's replaced half the droid's memory with the WD codes, hyuck'.

You know what's even more tragic, though it's slightly off topic? Much as Star Trek is lambasted for incompetant engineering, they never managed to nestle their highly explosive main reactors next to a landing deck, which is, AFAIK, the most accident prone area on modern ships, without even bothering to put a wall in the way, as the Trade Federation did.

[consequences]

*cough* M5 incident(other notable incidents would all be TNG or later) *cough*

I'm afraid I'm not aware of that one.

Although to be fair, you haven't even scratched the surface of Imperial stupidity in the EU.

I long ago stopped reading the EU, except for things that get a high review on this board.

'Dur, lets let Skywalkers droid stick with him, and not take it apart down to the base programming to find that he's replaced half the droid's memory with the WD codes, hyuck'.

You know what's even more tragic, though it's slightly off topic? Much as Star Trek is lambasted for incompetant engineering, they never managed to nestle their highly explosive main reactors next to a landing deck, which is, AFAIK, the most accident prone area on modern ships, as the Trade Federation did.

The M5 incident involved an experiment in computer-controlled ships nearly rsulting in the loss of several Fed starships when the computer went bug-fuck nuts. I'm fuzzy on the details.

Hell, I was refering to Dark Empire(Classic) which is practically one of the underlying foundations of the EU.

To be fair to the TF, they were converted freighters, rather than purpose built warships, and practically the entire ship was a giant hangar bay.

[NecronLord]

The M5 incident involved an experiment in computer-controlled ships nearly rsulting in the loss of several Fed starships when the computer went bug-fuck nuts. I'm fuzzy on the details.

I think that one could be a case of the artificial intellect in the computer bypassing whatever built in security systems, rather than just no security being present... How much would it have cost them to install a goddamn ignition key on the Sun Crusher?

Hell, I was refering to Dark Empire(Classic) which is practically one of the underlying foundations of the EU.

To be fair to the TF, they were converted freighters, rather than purpose built warships, and practically the entire ship was a giant hangar bay.

Well, IIRC there were doors there to prevent precisely that happening... A shoddy bugfix at best. Which they left open...

[Meest]

Is there any reasonable plot point for Star Wars of the OT era though? The Empire has such a huge advantage anything other than flukey covert ops just wouldn't be believable.

[NecronLord]

Is there any reasonable plot point for Star Wars of the OT era though? The Empire has such a huge advantage anything other than flukey covert ops just wouldn't be believable.

That's the thing, it's like Stargate's Wriath or Goa'uld. To loose to an enemy they hold all the cards over, IE the Rebllion, they must be massively incompetant. Thus, they are. The Federation, being protagonists, are required to be less incompetant by the plot, and thus, they are.

In their case, it's a social thing, they train for unquestioning obedience, and allow aristocrats who don't have a clue about warfare (OZZEL!) to get into positions commanding elite units. Rising through the ranks on Merit alone is almost impossible. In comparison, the TOS federation does indeed promote on skill alone, and ignores things like influential families, the only exception to that would be Captain Decker, and he was quite deserving of the rank he attained by all reports, regardless of his father holding a flag rank.

[Stravo]

Is there any reasonable plot point for Star Wars of the OT era though? The Empire has such a huge advantage anything other than flukey covert ops just wouldn't be believable.

Hell, I always thought that a Sith Lord needing a targeting computer to hit an X-Wing 10-15 meters in front of it by some visuals to be a tad ridiculous.

[brianeyci]

Hell, I always thought that a Sith Lord needing a targeting computer to hit an X-Wing 10-15 meters in front of it by some visuals to be a tad ridiculous.

Yeah, my first question was why not disable the targeting computer, go to manual control, and shoot. You can't miss from that range against something going straight.

The only explaination is that Vader doesn't "trust The Force" as much as we are led to believe. As far fetched as it seems, this meshes with Vader's half-man, half-machine character.

Brian

[Petrosjko]

Okay NL, do you think Thrawn would shift loyalties to the Federation of TOS era?

Possibly.

On the other hand, there's no way in hell I'd think he'd jump to the Feds of TNG era.

"Your culture has highly militant enemies, and for allies you have one highly volatile warrior nation that can change governments over the result of a personal duel, and... you frown upon combat training exercises for your pseudo-military? I see."

[Skylon]

Was that because of their skill, or because of the incompetence of their enemies? One of Kirk's "great victories" came only after he allowed a diplomatic party (and her bodyguard) to freely roam what should have been classified areas of his ship, and failed to put them under constant surveillance. And let's not even discuss his stunning incompetence in ST6, or the demonstrated pitiful Klingon border security in that same movie.

What incompetence in ST6 do you refer to? I agree on the note about Klingon border security...

There certainly are cases of Kirk screwing up big time (the initial encounter with the Reliant in TWOK, where we learn some Starfleet regulations have a reason and can keep you alive).

[Skylon]

In their case, it's a social thing, they train for unquestioning obedience, and allow aristocrats who don't have a clue about warfare (OZZEL!) to get into positions commanding elite units. Rising through the ranks on Merit alone is almost impossible. In comparison, the TOS federation does indeed promote on skill alone, and ignores things like influential families, the only exception to that would be Captain Decker, and he was quite deserving of the rank he attained by all reports, regardless of his father holding a flag rank.

I know the Trek novels ain't real cannon, but on this note, the Trek novel "Best Destiny" establishes Kirk's father served under Captain Robert April, and in the novel Kirk, and his father have a little adventure with April. Anyway, at one point there is some speculation in Starfleet if Kirk had gotten command of the Enterprise at such a young age because of his father's connection to April, and Kirk himself wondered if April pulled a few strings from afar.

Not cannon, but sounds believeable as it appears to have been established Kirk was one of the youngest Captains in Starfleet.

[Deathstalker]

Ozzel wasn't incompetent, arrogant certainly, but not totally inept. He was a victim of circumstance. Piett acted on a hunch, something a junior officer has a chance to get away with, not an Admiral in charge of a fleet carrying the Emporer's personal errand boy. Once Intelligence had confirmed that the Rebels could be on Hoth, Ozzel presumably came up with a plan that involved jumping close to the planet and clobbering the power generator, keeping the Rebels from raising the shield, and the ground assault goes much quicker. Unfortunately the probe droid was not sneakier and was discovered. The Rebels knew the Imps could arrive any moment and raised the shield. Ozzel's mistake was simply not doing whatever Vader wanted instead of showing any kind of initiative. If anything, Ozzel got the fleet closer to inderdict ships leaving the base, something that wouldn't have been possible if the fleet had been outside the system.

[NecronLord]

Ozzel wasn't incompetent, arrogant certainly, but not totally inept. He was a victim of circumstance. Piett acted on a hunch, something a junior officer has a chance to get away with, not an Admiral in charge of a fleet carrying the Emporer's personal errand boy. Once Intelligence had confirmed that the Rebels could be on Hoth, Ozzel presumably came up with a plan that involved jumping close to the planet and clobbering the power generator, keeping the Rebels from raising the shield, and the ground assault goes much quicker. Unfortunately the probe droid was not sneakier and was discovered. The Rebels knew the Imps could arrive any moment and raised the shield. Ozzel's mistake was simply not doing whatever Vader wanted instead of showing any kind of initiative. If anything, Ozzel got the fleet closer to inderdict ships leaving the base, something that wouldn't have been possible if the fleet had been outside the system.

According to numerous EU sources, due to Ozzel's gross incompetance, three Imperator Star Destroyers, something like 150,000 men, were killed accidentally smashing into the Excecutor on that jump. For that, he probably deserved what Vader did to him. This incident has also been blamed on the similarly inept Admiarl Griff, who died aboard those ships, the previous commander of Death Squadron who managed to fuck up the blockade of Yavin IV - Can these clowns ever actually do anything right?.