Suck it down, Abu-Ghraib apologist bitches; it was TORTURE

[Pick]

There are really no words for my level of disgust. I just... I always think I'm cynical, and things just get worse. Every time I hear a story like this I flash back to six or so years ago and what the United States was like then. It's so different, especially in international perspective, but no one seems to notice... Well, at least, no one that anyone in power seems to listen to. I mean, the United States used to be a pretty neat country, not something to be ashamed of, and now we look like a pack of vicious monsters. I mean, what's the historical perspective going to be on this? I can't imagine it'll be remotely pleasent. It's one of those kinds of things I suppose that not enough people object to now, but in the future will be the cause of one hell of a lot of national shame. I hope.

It just... .... how can these people who do this --and worse, the people who support this (kudos to Hamel's found quotes for making me physcially ill)-- not cringe with self-loathing when they see this?! Identify, even in the smallest way, with the people that have seem to have been damn near indiscriminately rounded up?... I always expect too much of people.

[Patrick Degan]

Yet another moment in these most recent four years that I've looked around and have been unable to recognise the country I'm living in.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yeah, lets see has the reform bill that grants US citizenship to anyone who serves in our military for 10 years been signed yet. The guy's name was someing like "Marian" or something....

[Thirdfain]

Oh, my goodness. A man is killed in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

[Keevan_Colton]

Oh, my goodness. A man is killed in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

Oh my goodness, irrellevant bullshit!

[SirNitram]

Oh, my goodness. A man is killed in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

Usually, I respect you. But you get the Assclown Award For Stupid Statements.

I don't give a shit what whine is made about folks who do claim such things; you are damn well intelligent enough to not be such a goddamn retard. But thanks. Thanks for reminding me the Stupidity Node that anything remotely political activates can strike damn near anyone.

[Edi]

Nope, the USA refused to allow the War Crimes Tribunal (or whatever it's called) in The Hague to prosecute American soldiers. You'll have to settle for whatever the court martials see fit to give them. Military prison isn't a joke though.

Multiple reasons for that: don't want to reduce our sovreignty, and don't want Euros with an agenda charging and trying American soldiers.

Didn't take long for this lie to come out of the storage. The ICC only has jurisdiction to prosecute soldiers of signatory nations if those nations refuse to investigate things themselves. So what you are asking for is in fact carte blanche for the US to commit atrocities at will without repercussions.

Tell me, how would you feel about European soldiers who killed 20 or more Americans through intentional violation of orders designed to prevent just that kind of thing happening and tried to cover it up (with proof of the cover-up attempt publicly known) getting just a dishonorable discharge and a few months in the slammer before walking free? You'd be foaming at the mouth about how they got off too light, but this is what happens ROUTINELY when US soldiers commit the same actions, because the US absolutely refuses to do anything significant to address any kind of problems in a meaningful way.

Edi

[Aaron]

You have to realize that Matchee (the guy who did the beating) tried to commit suicide and was seriously brain-damaged by the time the trial would have begun. He was deemed unfit to stand trial because of his massive self-inflicted brain damage. While there may be some evidence that the brass tried to whitewash the affair (which is where most of the scandal centred), the claim that the main perpetrator "escaped justice" is an oversimplification. Not to mention the fact that the government disbanded the entire Airborne regiment after that happened; you cannot compare the Canadian and American governments' respective reactions. At no time was the treatment of the Somali teenager actually sanctioned from the upper levels, much less given a euphemistic bullshit name like "stress position".

There's alot of talk from guys who served within the Regiment that he was told to commit suicide for the good of the unit, and that's why he was left with his boot laces after being taken into custody.

[Thirdfain]

Usually, I respect you. But you get the Assclown Award For Stupid Statements.

I don't give a shit what whine is made about folks who do claim such things; you are damn well intelligent enough to not be such a goddamn retard. But thanks. Thanks for reminding me the Stupidity Node that anything remotely political activates can strike damn near anyone.

You misunderstand me. I'm not calling the insurgents retards. I'm saying that they literally strap bombs to mentally challenged individuals and dupe them into making the attacks.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/0 ... tance.html

[Elfdart]

Oh, my goodness. A man is killed in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

In a way it does. Torturing, raping and murdering prisoners are against the law, period. Suicide bombing is legal and proper if it's used against legitimate targets. People living in an occupied country have the legal and moral right to try to drive out the invaders and punish those who collaborate with them. So to the extent that the suicide bombers attack military and intelligence targets, yes the do have the moral high ground over scumbags who rape, torture and kill prisoners.

[Atlan]

Oh, my goodness. A man is tortured to death in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

Fixed it for you.
And to answer your question, no. No, it doesn't. But it doesn't do a damn thing for the moral high ground that the US admin is trying to claim either.
What good is going to war over ideas and ideologies if you're going to become like your enemy?

[Keevan_Colton]

Also, lets not forget none of these people being held either at x-ray or abu gharib have even faced a trial...

[Thirdfain]

(hit post by accident.)

Yeah, it's not the best source. I'm simply pointing out that this is a war, ladies and gentlemen, and it's a war being fought by the ever-fallible human being. There hasn't been a major military action in history in which both sides didn't commit atrocities on and off the battlefield. In the grand scheme of things, this news doesn't change anything.

I'm not saying that the guards at Abu Ghraib are somehow absolved from fitting with the lowest of the low. Never the less, there are larger things at stake than bringing justice to a couple of scumbags in American uniform.

[Tommy J]

Someone has yet to explain to me why the Bush Administration was so opposed to abiding by the articles of the Geneva convention, which in my mind are completely fair.


Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

[Elfdart]

It doesn't really matter if the US joined the ICC or not, just as it didn't matter that Imperial Japan hadn't signed the Geneva Conventions when Tojo was put on trial. He got his neck stretched after a fair trial and so should those who commit war crimes today.

[SirNitram]

You misunderstand me. I'm not calling the insurgents retards. I'm saying that they literally strap bombs to mentally challenged individuals and dupe them into making the attacks.

*Tinks against that skull* Yep, pure Anti-Realitium.

When you gain functional literacy, I was criticizing you for whining about what the other guy would do and claiming anyone here has assigned them a moral high ground. But feel free to continue this stupidity. It really shows alot.

[Thirdfain]

What good is going to war over ideas and ideologies if you're going to become like your enemy?

Fuck that. IF this war succeeds, it's entirely possible (though of course far from certain) that an entire nation with a population of millions will enjoy a real democratic goverment and an end to decades of oppression. That stands head and shoulders above some nebulous concept of battlefield morality.

Yeah, there's a point where we can have gone to far from morality- but one man tortured to death, or even a dozen? I don't think that's too far.

[SirNitram]

Wow. People post about barbarism in the American forces, and, since the Apologists can no longer claim it didn't happen, they begin furiously dragging off-topic bullshit in to change it from 'Americans commit barbaric atrocity' to 'EVAL LEFTYISTS SEZ WE IZ BADE BUTT TEROR TERRIR TERRIRER... A-RABS IS BADE TOO'.

This crap isn't tolerated in the fiction side of the site, yet is here. Yep, politics rots the brain.

[Edi]

And this red herring of yours has what relevance, Shep? That's right, fuck-all. That an insurgent committed a war crime does not give the US carte blanche to do the same, no matter how many red herring articles you post.

Edi

[Atlan]

What good is going to war over ideas and ideologies if you're going to become like your enemy?

Fuck that. IF this war succeeds, it's entirely possible (though of course far from certain) that an entire nation with a population of millions will enjoy a real democratic goverment and an end to decades of oppression. That stands head and shoulders above some nebulous concept of battlefield morality.

Yeah, there's a point where we can have gone to far from morality- but one man tortured to death, or even a dozen? I don't think that's too far.

What "Battlefield"? He was a prisoner.
I can understand a Marine shooting a man lying on the ground, thinking that the guy might be playing possum, thinking that he's going to try and kill someone. Stupid to do it in front of a TV camera, but I can understand it.
But torturing people to death is one of those things that a nation as proud of their morals as the USA (or ANY civilised nation for that!) simply should not do. Because it's uncivilised. You're throwing away the very things that you feel make you stand head and shoulders over the people you're fighting. There is no "middle ground" in this, because who decides what's going too far? At what point are you no longer better than your enemy if you condone stuff like this?
You either take the moral high ground, or you do not. It is that simple.

[Thirdfain]

What "Battlefield"? He was a prisoner.
I can understand a Marine shooting a man lying on the ground, thinking that the guy might be playing possum, thinking that he's going to try and kill someone. Stupid to do it in front of a TV camera, but I can understand it.
But torturing people to death is one of those things that a nation as proud of their morals as the USA (or ANY civilised nation for that!) simply should not do. Because it's uncivilised. You're throwing away the very things that you feel make you stand head and shoulders over the people you're fighting. There is no "middle ground" in this, because who decides what's going too far? At what point are you no longer better than your enemy if you condone stuff like this?
You either take the moral high ground, or you do not. It is that simple.

People do awful shit to each other all the time in completely peaceful places. There are many Americans who are rapists, killers, or just plain assholes. Some of these people wind up in the Armed Forces, and do terrible things to other people.

I still fail to see the relevance on the larger issues.

[Dahak]

Oh, my goodness. A man is killed in captivity in a shooting war. I guess that gives a bunch of folks whose standard tactics include strapping bombs to retarded individuals and using them as suicide weapons the moral high ground.

It is kinda bad marketing to do such things for a nation that does its best to be portrayed as the Shining Paragon Of Democracy And Freedom (TM).

You don't expect better from t3h evil nations, but not from those who make themselves appear to be better.

[Edi]

People do awful shit to each other all the time in completely peaceful places. There are many Americans who are rapists, killers, or just plain assholes. Some of these people wind up in the Armed Forces, and do terrible things to other people.

I still fail to see the relevance on the larger issues.

Yeah, and these were all just isolated incidents, what with the Army's own investigations publicly stating that the problems have not been limited to Abu Ghraib only, and with all the other evidence clearly indicating that the problem of prisoner abuse is systemic, widespread and condoned throughout the chain of command. Go ahead and pretend like you're making some points, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a stupid fuckwit.

Edi

[Thirdfain]

It is kinda bad marketing to do such things for a nation that does its best to be portrayed as the Shining Paragon Of Democracy And Freedom (TM).

You don't expect better from t3h evil nations, but not from those who make themselves appear to be better.

This is such a ridiculous "Star Wars" look at the world. The United States is the Good Guys, and the people in the United States are *all* wonderful paragons of the virtues the US as a nation is supposed to be based on. The Arabs are the Bad Guys, and as such are expected to cackle with glee as they kill and rape as part of their day-to-day routine.

The fact is, what gives the United States the moral high ground in the Iraq war issue is the fact that we are at least nominally attempting to set up a government which will grant the people of Iraq freedom and enfranchisement. This issue has *nothing* to do with the completely reprehensible behavior of a number of our servicemen, and as long as that fundamental fact about our war in Iraq remains in place, it will be very hard to dislodge us from holding the moral high ground.

[Uraniun235]

I won't ever be satisfied with the outcome of this whole shitstorm, because I would only be satisfied after officers got nailed for this.