Suck it down, Abu-Ghraib apologist bitches; it was TORTURE

[Aaron]

I won't ever be satisfied with the outcome of this whole shitstorm, because I would only be satisfied after officers got nailed for this.

Never going to happen, they never turn on their own.

[Dahak]

It is kinda bad marketing to do such things for a nation that does its best to be portrayed as the Shining Paragon Of Democracy And Freedom (TM).

You don't expect better from t3h evil nations, but not from those who make themselves appear to be better.

This is such a ridiculous "Star Wars" look at the world. The United States is the Good Guys, and the people in the United States are *all* wonderful paragons of the virtues the US as a nation is supposed to be based on. The Arabs are the Bad Guys, and as such are expected to cackle with glee as they kill and rape as part of their day-to-day routine.

The fact is, what gives the United States the moral high ground in the Iraq war issue is the fact that we are at least nominally attempting to set up a government which will grant the people of Iraq freedom and enfranchisement. This issue has *nothing* to do with the completely reprehensible behavior of a number of our servicemen, and as long as that fundamental fact about our war in Iraq remains in place, it will be very hard to dislodge us from holding the moral high ground.

It's a look at the world the dear government of the USA seems to be awfully busy portraying. Lately heard your president give speeches?

And they haven't toppled Saddam just from the good of their hearts and under false pretensions. This whole "freedom and democracy" bullshit is just the last straw they cling to. That's no source for moral high ground whatsoever.

[Atlan]

What "Battlefield"? He was a prisoner.
I can understand a Marine shooting a man lying on the ground, thinking that the guy might be playing possum, thinking that he's going to try and kill someone. Stupid to do it in front of a TV camera, but I can understand it.
But torturing people to death is one of those things that a nation as proud of their morals as the USA (or ANY civilised nation for that!) simply should not do. Because it's uncivilised. You're throwing away the very things that you feel make you stand head and shoulders over the people you're fighting. There is no "middle ground" in this, because who decides what's going too far? At what point are you no longer better than your enemy if you condone stuff like this?
You either take the moral high ground, or you do not. It is that simple.

People do awful shit to each other all the time in completely peaceful places. There are many Americans who are rapists, killers, or just plain assholes. Some of these people wind up in the Armed Forces, and do terrible things to other people.

I still fail to see the relevance on the larger issues.

It was IN A FUCKING PRISON. PRISON GUARDS ARE SUPPOSED to GUARD, NOT TO TORTURE. And it DOES NOT adress the issue of just where morality turns bad.
But I guess that things like this mean nothing to a fuckwit who claims:

Yeah, there's a point where we can have gone to far from morality- but one man tortured to death, or even a dozen? I don't think that's too far.

So, it's allright for a dozen guys to be tortured to death by the righteous US forces?

IF this war succeeds, it's entirely possible (though of course far from certain)that an entire nation with a population of millions will enjoy a real democratic goverment and an end to decades of oppression.

IF. You're willing to torture a dozen guys to death over a war you are not sure you'll win, and the MAYBE of a nation becoming democratic (I suggest you as Al-Sistani about that. He seems reasonable..).
Your lack of morals should be painfully obvious to even the most casual observer now.

[aerius]

It could be worse, at least no prisoners have been beheaded live on Fox News....

[wood]

Not even the Nazis used ambulances as instruments of war.

They did, however, employ the method of torture known as "Palestinian hanging". So I guess your point reduces to "they're worse than the Nazi's, and we're only as bad as the Nazi's".

[Atlan]

It could be worse, at least no prisoners have been beheaded live on Fox News....

Give it time and we'll see live hangings though.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It could be worse, at least no prisoners have been beheaded live on Fox News....

Give it time and we'll see live hangings though.

It's happening in Thailand already.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Thirdfain, a civilized nation that values freedom and DUE PROCESS must hold itself to a certain standard, especially when its justification for war was ending tyranny, like torture, rape, and trialess execution.

This was not a lone CIA interrogator going too far, he was not a soldier, he was a civilian who has a security clearance, which means that he was not a rapist, or a murderer before he joined up, by definition.

He had to have been ordered to use torture on prisoners. WHich means that at least a few people in our government not only knew about it, but condoned it, and ordered it done.

They violated the very founding principles of this country, and I dont give a rats ass what it was done for. The act was evil. The person doing it and those who ordered it were evil. No less evil than nazi war criminals, who BTW were put on trial for their crimes.

How a person can stand there, and listen to the pained screaming of another human being, can torture another human being to death... I cannot fathom. It shocks the conscience. It is the sort of sick sadistic shit that gets people the Express Lane in texas.

But all of the sudden, because the person being tortured isnt one of us, the murderer is not held to any sort of standard. The murderer is free to torture someone to death, so long as he is just following orders, right thirdfain?

That is not only despicable, it is evil, and racist.

[Tommy J]

But all of the sudden, because the person being tortured isnt one of us, the murderer is not held to any sort of standard. The murderer is free to torture someone to death, so long as he is just following orders, right thirdfain?

That is not only despicable, it is evil, and racist.

Agreed 100% Aly. I'm completely dumbfounded how many people are willing to forgive this type of behavior because 'The US is at War' and/or 'We cannot allow another 9/11'. Or at a minimum they want to give light sentances to these individuals.

(some what related; a friend of mine was in the AirForce during the tail hook rape scandel that occured in Las Vegas several years ago. He in his mind some how justified the rape of women officers as 'men who are all worked up get a little out of control'.....'everyone's over reacting'.......this sounds familiar.......)

We are becoming in our forgiveness or at best 1/2 ass punshment of these actions no better than the dictators we're trying to stop.

[Durandal]

Shep's irrelevant post deleted. I've warned you repeatedly about this kind of crap, Shep, and I'm not going to tolerate it anymore.

[Darth Wong]

The amazing thing about all this (aside from the fact that no matter how ridiculously blatant something is, a partisan will always rise from the shitpile to defend it sooner or later) is that officials have been referring to the use of "stress positions" for years. But we never knew exactly what the term "stress position" could refer to, except that it was vaguely suggested to have something to do with forcing prisoners to be in uncomfortable positions.

Now we finally know what "stress positions" means. It means medieval fucking torture. Another fucking bullshit euphemism, brought to you by the Ministry of Truth.

[irishmick79]

Would anybody be opposed to a proposal that mandates an automatic dishonerable discharge at completion of service for soldiers charged with prisoner abuse? Not convicted, mind you, just charged. If they got their ass convicted, they should be facing substantial jail time.

[Beowulf]

Nope, the USA refused to allow the War Crimes Tribunal (or whatever it's called) in The Hague to prosecute American soldiers. You'll have to settle for whatever the court martials see fit to give them. Military prison isn't a joke though.

Multiple reasons for that: don't want to reduce our sovreignty, and don't want Euros with an agenda charging and trying American soldiers.

Didn't take long for this lie to come out of the storage. The ICC only has jurisdiction to prosecute soldiers of signatory nations if those nations refuse to investigate things themselves. So what you are asking for is in fact carte blanche for the US to commit atrocities at will without repercussions.

Tell me, how would you feel about European soldiers who killed 20 or more Americans through intentional violation of orders designed to prevent just that kind of thing happening and tried to cover it up (with proof of the cover-up attempt publicly known) getting just a dishonorable discharge and a few months in the slammer before walking free? You'd be foaming at the mouth about how they got off too light, but this is what happens ROUTINELY when US soldiers commit the same actions, because the US absolutely refuses to do anything significant to address any kind of problems in a meaningful way.

Edi

Let's force an investigation any time one of our soldiers shoots someone, because otherwise they might end up in The Hague facing war crimes trials. The ICC could claim that since we didn't investigate, we're covering up, and a soldier ends up in jail for shooting at someone shooting at him.

[Beowulf]

Would anybody be opposed to a proposal that mandates an automatic dishonerable discharge at completion of service for soldiers charged with prisoner abuse? Not convicted, mind you, just charged. If they got their ass convicted, they should be facing substantial jail time.

I fucking would be opposed. If he's wasn't convicted, then you just gave a man cleared of the charges against him what amounts to a felony conviction. Because that's what a DD is. In fact, it's worse, because the only job opportunity he has is working a McDonalds. It's punishing an innocent man, and you are a fucking idiot to not try to think that through.

[SirNitram]

Let's force an investigation any time one of our soldiers shoots someone, because otherwise they might end up in The Hague facing war crimes trials. The ICC could claim that since we didn't investigate, we're covering up, and a soldier ends up in jail for shooting at someone shooting at him.

Let's imagine phantom conspiracies.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps we should start a contest: can anyone think of an open-and-shut, black-and-white example of something the American government does that right-wingers won't make excuses for or try to dismiss by saying that something somewhere else in the world is even worse? How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

[SirNitram]

Perhaps we should start a contest: can anyone think of an open-and-shut, black-and-white example of something the American government does that right-wingers won't make excuses for or try to dismiss by saying that something somewhere else in the world is even worse? How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

Having social programs that are projected to run in the black for another thirty years untouched, Worst Case Scenario. The Right Wing is stepping up to admit this is a horrible, horrible crime, and we will be correcting it immediately....

[Uraniun235]

I won't ever be satisfied with the outcome of this whole shitstorm, because I would only be satisfied after officers got nailed for this.

Never going to happen, they never turn on their own.

I know. That's why I said "won't ever."

Having social programs that are projected to run in the black for another thirty years untouched, Worst Case Scenario. The Right Wing is stepping up to admit this is a horrible, horrible crime, and we will be correcting it immediately....

The most infuriating part of that is that there are right-wing hatfuckers that openly admit that this move has nothing to do with economics, and is purely an ideologically motivated action - God Forbid the State ever take care of anyone.

But hey, it's not like they have to worry, what with the obscene pensions that every bloody Congressman and Senator recieves.

[HemlockGrey]

How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

I dunno, probably something on the order of the Rape of Nanking. I mean, the United States could don a legionary outfit, shout "It's ROMAN EMPIRE TIME, motherfuckers!" and nuke Syria, and most of them would probably approve.

Now, the reaaaaallly aggravating thing is that the Administration will never, ever admit that it handled this poorly, and the "Left Wing Media" will never hold them accountable, just like it didn't hold them accountable for the Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Perhaps we should start a contest: can anyone think of an open-and-shut, black-and-white example of something the American government does that right-wingers won't make excuses for or try to dismiss by saying that something somewhere else in the world is even worse? How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

Its not like you can simply point to the right and blame everything on them. The Clinton administration embargo on Iraq cost something like the lifes of 500,000 children.

Anyway- to answer your question. The US can get away with pretty much anything short of rounding up people and sticking them into gas chambers- provided a semi-credible reason that gives moral justification is provided.

[weemadando]

But it wasn't torture! It was merely a practical joke! Cheerleaders do it!

There was no knowledge of these practices by the upper echelons! Look, we'll even speed through a court-martial of a 17y/o reservist from Nebraska to prove it!

The CIA wasn't there! And those pictures were taken in, errr, Iran! Because Iran is EVIL!

It wasn't us and it certainly wasn't the President, his cabinet or the Republican party - in fact analysis has conclusively proven that HILARY CLINTON tied that man up!

[Ryoga]

Really, at this point I don't think there's anything the US government or Bush administration could do that someone, somewhere (possibly on this board) wouldn't try and defend. That's what's so damned infuriating, they just ignore their own so-called 'core values' when it's politically inconvenient. And they have the gall to refer to the opposition as spineless, vote-whoring dilettantes. ARGH.

[Elfdart]

Perhaps we should start a contest: can anyone think of an open-and-shut, black-and-white example of something the American government does that right-wingers won't make excuses for or try to dismiss by saying that something somewhere else in the world is even worse? How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

Short of Gonzales or Rumsfeld whipping out Zyklon-B, I don't think there's anything that will shock war whores to their senses, and even then, some of them will make excuses. Let's face it, they carried out just about every other kind of atrocity in the book, so mass gassing is pretty much all that's left.

It's a slimy attitude that's all too common, but nothing new. When Lt. William Calley was finally charged for murder in the My Lai Massacre, he was treated by people in Georgia as a folk hero. Cracker politicians like Lester Maddox and his stooges took part in parades in support of Calley. The men who reported Calley's atrocities were the ones vilified. The fact that right-wingers got all bent out of shape over John Kerry's testimony and the Winter Soldier meetings, while not saying a word about Calley (even denying that atrocities were committed) should tell you all you need to know. The fact that Zell Miller was one of Maddox's henchmen back then might explain the hysterical abuse he flung at Kerry.

There was an article a few months ago about the soldier who blew the whistle on Abu Ghraib. He has not only been ostracized and vilified in his home town, but his family had to get police protection because of all the threats they received. On the other side, a Marine who is facing court martial for shooting two prisoners is being treated as a martyr -a modern day Sir Thomas More. His family is invited on all the right-wing talk shows to try to justify what he did. So it doesn't surprise me that they have a ho-hum attitude about torture.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps we should start a contest: can anyone think of an open-and-shut, black-and-white example of something the American government does that right-wingers won't make excuses for or try to dismiss by saying that something somewhere else in the world is even worse? How bad would it have to be before they would stop making excuses?

Its not like you can simply point to the right and blame everything on them. The Clinton administration embargo on Iraq cost something like the lifes of 500,000 children.

True, but those sanctions were actually instituted by the UN during George H.W. Bush's tenure, rather than being an invention of Bill Clinton. Of course, Clinton is responsible for failing to lift those sanctions (as is the UK), but it was hardly a "Clinton administration embargo". Besides, the more salient point is that all of the antiwar people were just as vocal about sanctions during the Clinton administration as they were before and after. They didn't do this "my administration can do no wrong" thing that the right-wing apologists are doing. If anything, I think this is the primary reason for the strength of conservatism in the US today; they are more likely to form a united front (which is a really positive way of saying that they're more likely to be mindless party line-spouting sheep).

Anyway- to answer your question. The US can get away with pretty much anything short of rounding up people and sticking them into gas chambers- provided a semi-credible reason that gives moral justification is provided.

That's what I've always surmised from the fact that the first defense is always to compare whatever they've done recently to what the Nazis did, and say "we're not like that". It implies that until they do get as bad as that, we'll keep hearing this excuse.

[Gustav32Vasa]

That's what I've always surmised from the fact that the first defense is always to compare whatever they've done recently to what the Nazis did, and say "we're not like that". It implies that until they do get as bad as that, we'll keep hearing this excuse.

This leads me to ask, who is worse then the Nazi?