The vs. of Values and Tactics

[Spanky The Dolphin]

According to numerous EU sources, due to Ozzel's gross incompetance, three Imperator Star Destroyers, something like 150,000 men, were killed accidentally smashing into the Excecutor on that jump.

What? When and where was that?

[NecronLord]

What? When and where was that?

Some comic or other. It's been referenced elsewhere as well. Most notably, it's used in debating as an example of Imperial Shield Strength. Here is a link from SWTC that describes the event:

This upper limit on the shield capacity is complemented by a lower limit provided by the Classic STAR WARS comics, which chronicle an accident in which Admiral Griff's three destroyers or light cruisers (of at least one mile length) collided with the particle shields at presumably relativistic speeds (during reentry from hyperspace). The three impactors were annihilated, and Executor was unscathed but suffered serious temporary shield loss, requiring it to delay its mission.

Yes. The Imperial Navy is that pathetically inept. Half competant equivtech would go through them like a mace through wet tissue paper. Upon further examination, IIRC this incident is shortly before TESB, not during it, but even so ends up to some extent laid at the feet of Ozzel as well as Griff.

What's truly sad, is that the New Republic makes them look like professionals.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I thought so. Just the way you said it made it sound like you were saying it was on the same jump arriving to Hoth.

[Vympel]

Well, it wasn't Ozzel. It was actually at Yavin. Though one wonders what happened to cause the collision. Let's face it, there are many incidents in Wars and Trek we would just like to forget. Writers just suck at military matters. When they get it right, it's usually by accident.

[Dooey Jo]

If a Star Destroyer collides with another after a hyperspace jump, how is that the officer's fault? It's the navigators that plot the course, so it's their responsibility to make sure nothing is in the way.

[NecronLord]

If a Star Destroyer collides with another after a hyperspace jump, how is that the officer's fault? It's the navigators that plot the course, so it's their responsibility to make sure nothing is in the way.

As I said, I was under the impression that this was supposed to be thier jump at Hoth.

Aside from the fact that a Captain (or Admiral) traditionally takes responsibility of the actions of those under him in exchange for their duty, it is also in Star Wars, the responsibility of an Admiral and their staff to oversee combat manouvers (No surprise there) such as... where they drop out of hyperspace. Only extreme negligence on the part of Griff and Ozzel could cause Griff's group to decide to drop out of hyperspeed in the same place as Ozzel had decided to park his ship {AFAIK he was it's first Flag Officer}. It's directly analogous to a USN commander parking a Nimitz in the route another fleet, sensor-blind for some reason, are going to be traversing.

The role of the flag officers is in planning on the task force level. Where a flotilla will emerge from hyperspace into a combat zone definately strikes me as part of that... And then there's the fact that Vader blames Griff too.

There is one competant canon Imperial Officer, and he's ground forces (Veers) and one competant EU Imperial Fleet Officer (Thrawn) - The rest are clowns in sailor suits. Admittedly, the TOS federation are sailors in clown suits, but we'll just ignore the low costume budet

Well, it wasn't Ozzel. It was actually at Yavin. Though one wonders what happened to cause the collision. Let's face it, there are many incidents in Wars and Trek we would just like to forget. Writers just suck at military matters. When they get it right, it's usually by accident.

The thing is, the writers of Star Wars know the Empire's Leaders are about as competant as the Chuckle Brothers. Ranging from the first film 'A threat to your starfleet commander...' 'Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances' to the last 'No. Doctor Evi... err, The Emperor has something special planned for them.'

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Aside from the fact that a Captain (or Admiral) traditionally takes responsibility of the actions of those under him in exchange for their duty, it is also in Star Wars, the responsibility of an Admiral and their staff to oversee combat manouvers (No surprise there) such as... where they drop out of hyperspace. Only extreme negligence on the part of Griff and Ozzel could cause Griff's group to decide to drop out of hyperspeed in the same place as Ozzel had decided to park his ship {AFAIK he was it's first Flag Officer}. It's directly analogous to a USN commander parking a Nimitz in the route another fleet, sensor-blind for some reason, are going to be traversing.

It is honestly insanely bad luck. The Executor is a big target, but space is far bigger. Even if they were aiming for it, they would still have to be pretty accurate to hit it.

The thing is, the writers of Star Wars know the Empire's Leaders are about as competant as the Chuckle Brothers.

Or they just can't think of a better way to make the story look good than to make the Empire look bad.

Ranging from the first film 'A threat to your starfleet commander...' 'Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances' to the last 'No. Doctor Evi... err, The Emperor has something special planned for them.'

Why does everyone forget how close Tarkin was to being right? The author (or the "will of the Force") had to make the MF turn around, then apparently he cloaked it so the Imperials won't see it coming (blaming the jamming doesn't help, because apparently Yavin ground control could IIRC warn of the TIE fighters as they scrambled at long range, so the DS operators should presumably be able to detect the MF as it closed in). Oh, and obviously Vader had no precog to tell him about this, so maybe the Force jammed that too (of course, maybe he was just tunnel visioned). After that, the shot had to be Force-assisted, and of course it was perfectly timed to go in one second before the Death Star can smash Yavin (if they can destroy Yavin, the loss of the Death Star is probably worth it - the resource disparity is that lopsided).

Tarkin was the cool gent. The only thing he couldn't see was the Force (big suprise, he ain't Force sensitive, you know), and it was particularly strong today. In retrospect, anyone could say he could have launched fighters as a precautionary measure. But the Death Star is a political weapon (a symbol), and thus political factors have to go into its use. As in "What? The filthy Outer Rim Alderaanian Rebels launched 30 crummy fighters and they could scare the DS enough to cough up all its fighters? Man, I've got 6000 fighters in my home defense team with elite aircrews! If the Death Star ambles over, I'd just launch all of them and scare him away." You may consider this political factor a small one (but you have the invincible advantage of hindsight), but to Tarkin, it is bigger than the minimal military risk, and he was almost correct.

For the second, it just means political influence got in the way of a proper action. It is not a failure of military, so much as the old lesson of how stupid politicians can destroy the best laid plans. As it was, Ackbar was quite ready to run. The Intelligence people couldn't have figured out Lando was now in the team (a very recent event as of the Battle of Endor), or that he managed to acquire a position high enough to even be able to talk with any of the senior commanders directly.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I don't know if this has ever been addressed before, but here it goes.

In a battle between the Fed and the Empire, assuming equal fire power, shielding, technology etc.

In terms of pure tactics and values who wins? Does the Federation's values of being 'good' defeat 'evil'?

The Empire makes tactical (which are often politically based) mistakes (then the Force piles in to twist luck in the Rebels' favor*). The Federation barely has tactics on the ground and any space tactics it has is rendered obsolete by the suddenly changed tools of the trade. To equalize the Empire with the Federation in numbers, I suppose I'd say that the Emperor has assigned this whole lot of pacifying the Federation to a Moff or Grand Moff.

If I give the Feds Imperial level tech:

On the ground: Won't help much. They might use SW tech, but their philosophy of a ground force is basically light infantry (in TOS when they have light mortars; in TNG their idea are redshirts and rifles if they are lucky, with an occasional RPG). Said light infantry will be up against Imperial heavy infantry and armored forces with CW. The general results (barring freak accidents) are predictable.

In space: The Federation will have a steep learning curve and suffer accordingly. The severe change in tech level means a change in appropriate tactics, and while the Imperials presumably know them, the Feds don't. If they survive that learning curve without falling so far behind in the Resource Curve that they are basically lost, the best of them might be able to devise something to win some victories over the Imps.

[NecronLord]

Why does everyone forget how close Tarkin was to being right?

Doesn't matter. He was wrong. Good leaders cover their asses regardless of how little chance they think that dildo has of going up their anus. He was given power for simple minded violence, landing on a crowd of protestors, not for competance.

Tarkin was the cool gent. The only thing he couldn't see was the Force (big suprise, he ain't Force sensitive, you know), and it was particularly strong today. In retrospect, anyone could say he could have launched fighters as a precautionary measure. But the Death Star is a political weapon (a symbol), and thus political factors have to go into its use.

Remind me again, what news agencies were observing the battle? I seem to recall the likes of Yavin being far too remote for that.

As in "What? The filthy Outer Rim Alderaanian Rebels launched 30 crummy fighters and they could scare the DS enough to cough up all its fighters? Man, I've got 6000 fighters in my home defense team with elite aircrews! If the Death Star ambles over, I'd just launch all of them and scare him away." You may consider this political factor a small one (but you have the invincible advantage of hindsight), but to Tarkin, it is bigger than the minimal military risk, and he was almost correct.

No. He'd made his political demonstration. He was now engaged in a military operation. If he was not capable of running a military operation, as indeed he was not, he should have surrendered operational command to someone who was, such as one of the Admirals (and hope they're competant, which given the track record of the Empire, is unlikely) aboard the station, and observed the battle only. Saying "it almost worked" ignores the fact that his incompetance, despite holding every card, still got the Death Star destroyed and turned the Battle of Yavin into an utter disaster.

You have not adressed any of my other numerous examples of gross imperial invompetance and negligence, such as getting the Galaxy Gun destroyed by an obsolete maintainance 'bot. Or the Sun Crusher stolen by one scientist and some rebels. Let's not forget the ever popular 'wait for them to take off, with their ship, rather than just have the troops wait inside it' or perhaps the joyously smart 'I'll use myself as bait in the trap, and issue explicit orders to destroy the moon if the shield goes down, but not for Death Squadron and the Surface Turbolasers to destroy the Rebels if this happens.'

More to the point, you are assuming that the Feds are randomly upteched. I am assuming that the scenario basically makes a clone of the empire, in terms of resources such as manpower and technology, with the morality, social attitudes and government style of the Federation. Fairly obviously there are a million and one reasons why plonking Kirk and crew into an Equivtech ship, and giving scotty a pile of textbooks as high as himself isn't going to work.

From top (Palpatine) to bottom (whoever took all the troops away from the bunker's entrance when the Ewoks retreated) the Empire is institutionally stupid, far more so than the TOS federation ever was.

Saying "Their space tactics won't work because they've suddenly changed technology" is an utter cop out, and if you don't know that, you darn well should.

[NecronLord]

More to the point, I'm saying he should have ordered the immediate launch of fighters when he heard "We've analysed their attack Sir and there is a danger..." Because at that point, he has just been told by his supposedly competant minions that the rebels do indeed pose a threat.

Being a schoolyard bully in an officer's outfit, he didn't. This is inexcusable.

To address ground troops, after the first ground battle, what is going to stop them ordering their worlds to produce a droid army? Try to remember, the major defining force in SW Ground Combat is Theatre Shields, hence the mecha, and this is why they have such extensive ground armies. With the same driving forces acting upon the Federation, they would certainly be forced to develop equal ground forces of their own. And Attack of the Clones proved that one can make a massive droid army in months at worst.

More importantly, given that the Empire's rediculously poor fleet officers are likely to loose any number of space battles, ground combat will probably be an irrelevancy.

[NecronLord]

Let us not forget, if we go by The Duchess's fleet estimates (the highest I have seen), the Empire can, at any one time, of its three hundred million or some such warships, spare 25,000 for offensive operations, the rest being needed at all times to keep the empire's systems supressed. In comparison, the TOS Federation seems to have no such loyalty problems...

The other 378,000,000 combat starships would have to stay in their home galaxy to police it against rebels, pirates, smugglers, terrorists, and potential yet highly unlikely enemy raids from the invaded galaxy or the unknown regions (Or, of course, a Vong arrival). Considering that the Imperial Navy is the only truly mobile force out of all these ships, the Galactic Empire would have essentially zero offensive capacity in its own galaxy during an invasion; only defence, except for the direct pacification of known, rebelling planets, and small operations within sectors.

[PainRack]

Why does everyone forget how close Tarkin was to being right? The author (or the "will of the Force") had to make the MF turn around, then apparently he cloaked it so the Imperials won't see it coming (blaming the jamming doesn't help, because apparently Yavin ground control could IIRC warn of the TIE fighters as they scrambled at long range, so the DS operators should presumably be able to detect the MF as it closed in). Oh, and obviously Vader had no precog to tell him about this, so maybe the Force jammed that too (of course, maybe he was just tunnel visioned). After that, the shot had to be Force-assisted, and of course it was perfectly timed to go in one second before the Death Star can smash Yavin (if they can destroy Yavin, the loss of the Death Star is probably worth it - the resource disparity is that lopsided).

Depending on how one wishes to address the S canon, the MF apparently fought its way through the TIE fighter screen and swooped in out from the sun to attack*Decipher TCG*

Tarkin was the cool gent. The only thing he couldn't see was the Force (big suprise, he ain't Force sensitive, you know), and it was particularly strong today. In retrospect, anyone could say he could have launched fighters as a precautionary measure. But the Death Star is a political weapon (a symbol), and thus political factors have to go into its use. As in "What? The filthy Outer Rim Alderaanian Rebels launched 30 crummy fighters and they could scare the DS enough to cough up all its fighters? Man, I've got 6000 fighters in my home defense team with elite aircrews! If the Death Star ambles over, I'd just launch all of them and scare him away." You may consider this political factor a small one (but you have the invincible advantage of hindsight), but to Tarkin, it is bigger than the minimal military risk, and he was almost correct.

No. Tarkin was just plain arrogrant. He probably decided that there was no point in risking his snubfighters lives against fighters which can't destroy his battlestation. When he was notified otherwise, he "probably" released more TIE fighters,(to account for game numbers) but the DS didn't carry that many more operational TIE fighters.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Doesn't matter. He was wrong. Good leaders cover their asses regardless of how little chance they think that dildo has of going up their anus. He was given power for simple minded violence, landing on a crowd of protestors, not for competance.

That's a topic for another day. Good leaders are supposed to weigh risks and benefits. Covering their asses is for lawyers, or so that old joke goes

He took a gamble with highly favorable odds. The Force connived to make him lose said gamble.

Remind me again, what news agencies were observing the battle? I seem to recall the likes of Yavin being far too remote for that.

Rumors get around. Serious opposition with serious intelligence won't buy the Imperial news broadcast at face value anyway. Remember, this is the invincible terror weapon. You want to harvest on that, so you won't have to vape another planet.

No. He'd made his political demonstration. He was now engaged in a military operation. If he was not capable of running a military operation, as indeed he was not, he should have surrendered operational command to someone who was, such as one of the Admirals (and hope they're competant, which given the track record of the Empire, is unlikely) aboard the station, and observed the battle only. Saying "it almost worked" ignores the fact that his incompetance, despite holding every card, still got the Death Star destroyed and turned the Battle of Yavin into an utter disaster.

It is amazing how one can only analyze the result, and not the thinking process. He's running a military operation with an extremely heavy political content - the destruction of a major Rebel base.

If he surrendered his command, who would he surrender it to? Tagge? He's an Army general. Motti? Hell, Tarkin thinks he's "overrated" (DSTC).

You have not adressed any of my other numerous examples of gross imperial invompetance and negligence, such as getting the Galaxy Gun destroyed by an obsolete maintainance 'bot. Or the Sun Crusher stolen by one scientist and some rebels.

I don't know about these enough to comment on them, especially the Sun Crusher case. If you want to "court-martial" someone (so to speak), you need more than "Their operation failed." Unless of course you are Comrade Stalin.

Let's not forget the ever popular 'wait for them to take off, with their ship, rather than just have the troops wait inside it'

Vader is not exactly a general. Besides, with the Rebel's James Bond/Rambo like shooting skills, it is not clear even that would have stopped them. If they did so and didn't stop them, what's your next one? Oh, maybe they should have tried an orbital ion bombardment to utterly disable the ship before they could start it up? Maybe even a limited TL bombardment to utterly destroy it?

or perhaps the joyously smart 'I'll use myself as bait in the trap, and issue explicit orders to destroy the moon if the shield goes down, but not for Death Squadron and the Surface Turbolasers to destroy the Rebels if this happens.

It is really a little late to do the latter. As for the bait ... it takes a lot of bait to get the Rebels to go for broke, as internal communications within the Empire proved. The Emperor wants them to go for broke so he can destroy them.

Besides, with Death Squadron, an elite battalion of troops of on the ground, and an operational (if its outer frame is still patchy) Death Star, as well as his personal henchman and his Royal Guards all around him, why should the Emperor feel particularly at risk against a small boy (the only risk he is directly confronting himself) he could fry with Force Lightning at any time to his leisure?

More to the point, you are assuming that the Feds are randomly upteched. I am assuming that the scenario basically makes a clone of the empire, in terms of resources such as manpower and technology, with the morality, social attitudes and government style of the Federation.

Here's the difference. Poor Imperial decisions are local to the situation and particular commanders. Poor Federation decisions (like their ground doctrine all along; their unreliable ships and their weapons designs in TNG) are underlying. (And of course, they have their share of poor tactical decisions made in local situations and by particular commanders too). The difference is in the reporting bias. So the poor, local Imperial decisions are scanned in detail when they fail. The poor Federation decisions are shown to barely succeed. You amplify the local Imperial errors to the strategic, yet you seem to think the Federation would miraculously correct their strategic errors once they see the new tech and get the galactic scale and resources.

I chose to uptech so I can minimize the amount of Federation extrapolations (which almost always means bias) and make the situation a local Imperial one so the contribution of random mistakes are minimized. Just the introduction of hyperdrive will be such a great change to the existing Federation ways it is difficult to extrapolate how the society would turn with the greatly increased travel convenience. What about strategy? Would the Feds, with greatly increased travel speed, choose to demobilize some of their ships because each ship can now handle so much more area? Or would they suddenly turn aggressive (realizing what this new tech means against the Klingons). If I upsize the Federation to galactic scales, the extrapolations get even funnier. Since Starfleet is nominally an exploration force, what would they do with most of the galaxy discovered and no major threat? How badly would the new difficulties of governing on such a greatly increased scale affect them? Would they continue their tradition of arranging such poor ground defenses that 2000 enemy infantry could take one of their bigger planets?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Depending on how one wishes to address the S canon, the MF apparently fought its way through the TIE fighter screen and swooped in out from the sun to attack*Decipher TCG*

They had to fight its way through the fighter screen and still no one gave warning? This lowers the plausibility, not raises it!

No. Tarkin was just plain arrogrant. He probably decided that there was no point in risking his snubfighters lives

You mean he's concerned about his men? Isn't that a positive attribute?

against fighters which can't destroy his battlestation. When he was notified otherwise, he "probably" released more TIE fighters,(to account for game numbers) but the DS didn't carry that many more operational TIE fighters.

If that's so, then we can't say he's arrogant, right? He did launch more TIE fighters then, which eliminates a major sticking point for people saying he's being an incompetent dolt.

[Thirdfain]

I've read this comic with the 3 ISD's smashing in to the SSD, and IIRC, the impact was on purpose. The 3 ISDs belonged to an Imperial admiral who was disloyal; Vader gave them false co-ordinates to hyperjump to and simply placed his warship in the way.

[Deathstalker]

I've read this comic with the 3 ISD's smashing in to the SSD, and IIRC, the impact was on purpose. The 3 ISDs belonged to an Imperial admiral who was disloyal; Vader gave them false co-ordinates to hyperjump to and simply placed his warship in the way.

I'm glad you remebered this! I couldn't concieve how a civilization with thousands of years of hyperspace travel could screw up a jump so badly. I could maybe believe one ship, but not three hitting the exact same point in space without some outside interference. Incompetent Imp officers is just a brainbug, just like shieldless TIES and crosseyed Stormtroopers.

[NecronLord]

Here's the difference. Poor Imperial decisions are local to the situation and particular commanders.

All canon imperials but Veers are poor commanders. All EU Imperial commanders but Thrawn are poor. There are endless quotes and incidents with the Imperial Navy being inept and useless. They ARE.

[Ghost Rider]

Here's the difference. Poor Imperial decisions are local to the situation and particular commanders.

All canon imperials but Veers are poor commanders. All EU Imperial commanders but Thrawn are poor. There are endless quotes and incidents with the Imperial Navy being inept and useless. They ARE.

Wouldn't that be an incredibly gross generalization to maintain?

I agree the ones mentioned in both canon and EU are very dumb and make gross mistakes but to say that quotes and incidents are the truth of the matter is in direct contradiction with that they somehow maintained a stable order for more then 30 years after an immense war that galaxy had not seen for the longest of times.

I mean if they have not a single successful commander beyond the rare few that would literally mean that somehow Palpatine won the war in the same way the Federation maintains superiority in their universe.

Somehow.

Thus what examples we have seen are pretty much the loud mouth fools and the regular army and navy are able to maintain the status quo with minimal effort, but lack any real vision.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Here's the difference. Poor Imperial decisions are local to the situation and particular commanders.

All canon imperials but Veers are poor commanders. All EU Imperial commanders but Thrawn are poor.

They tend to be in very special situations that are hardly repeatable. Individual mistakes have no or little real predictive power. And we all agree Daala is an idiot.

You are evading the issues with predictive power. All Federation commanders, no matter their individual qualities, would be hampered by the "base qualities", such as their lack of a real ground fighting doctrine, and from TNG onwards, their shoddy ships. You know that, so you appeal to a hope that maybe the Imperials they happen to send would obligingly make a mistake so you can win despite your side's general incompetence.

[NecronLord]

Apologies for the previous post, I was in a rush to get out when I wrote it.

Wouldn't that be an incredibly gross generalization to maintain?

Not really. They managed to fall into largely internicine war after the fall of the empire, to the point where their 'millions' of star destroyers are reduced to a mere two hundred. The Galactic Empire lacked staying power, and was largely held up by the force powers of the emperor (HTTE) and the unity he was able to enforce. Without him, the Empire fell to its knees faster than a whore offered a million dollars for a blow.

I agree the ones mentioned in both canon and EU are very dumb and make gross mistakes but to say that quotes and incidents are the truth of the matter is in direct contradiction with that they somehow maintained a stable order for more then 30 years after an immense war that galaxy had not seen for the longest of times.

The thing is, both sides in that war were controlled by the same guy. It's not as if there were any massive groups trying to undermine the Empire.

I mean if they have not a single successful commander

I hardly said that. They rarely show successful commanders, and it's quite clear that the majority of their leaders are idiots. I do imagine there were other competant officers somewhere in the Empire, those other Grand Admirals for a start, but we've rarely seen them.

beyond the rare few that would literally mean that somehow Palpatine won the war in the same way the Federation maintains superiority in their universe.

Palpatine won the clone wars by... Y'know, being the leader of both sides. It would have taken Picardesque idiocy for him to somehow loose. As for federation superiority, I assume you mean the TNG 'We can develop all this stuff that no-one else can' Feds.

Somehow.

Thus what examples we have seen are pretty much the loud mouth fools and the regular army and navy are able to maintain the status quo with minimal effort, but lack any real vision.

Pretty much. They're a largely conformist culture, who are more complacent than, well. Anything.

[NecronLord]

Here's the difference. Poor Imperial decisions are local to the situation and particular commanders. Poor Federation decisions (like their ground doctrine all along; their unreliable ships and their weapons designs in TNG) are underlying. (And of course, they have their share of poor tactical decisions made in local situations and by particular commanders too). The difference is in the reporting bias. So the poor, local Imperial decisions are scanned in detail when they fail. The poor Federation decisions are shown to barely succeed. You amplify the local Imperial errors to the strategic, yet you seem to think the Federation would miraculously correct their strategic errors once they see the new tech and get the galactic scale and resources.

I chose to uptech so I can minimize the amount of Federation extrapolations (which almost always means bias) and make the situation a local Imperial one so the contribution of random mistakes are minimized. Just the introduction of hyperdrive will be such a great change to the existing Federation ways it is difficult to extrapolate how the society would turn with the greatly increased travel convenience. What about strategy? Would the Feds, with greatly increased travel speed, choose to demobilize some of their ships because each ship can now handle so much more area? Or would they suddenly turn aggressive (realizing what this new tech means against the Klingons). If I upsize the Federation to galactic scales, the extrapolations get even funnier. Since Starfleet is nominally an exploration force, what would they do with most of the galaxy discovered and no major threat? How badly would the new difficulties of governing on such a greatly increased scale affect them? Would they continue their tradition of arranging such poor ground defenses that 2000 enemy infantry could take one of their bigger planets?

So again, the only thing causing the Empire to win, is their technology, in this case their experience with it. The demonstratable gross incompetance of thier leaders and the majority of their officer corps remains.

To address the mistakes in your argument: The TOS federation did not see its military as an exploration force. The Enterprise was assigned to exploration, yes, but there were no illusions of it being a civillian group as there are in TNG+. Offhand, the best example is the way the federation's scientists rant about the 'military' in ST2.

As for what the exploration arm of Starfleet would do without the rest of the galaxy to explore, does the phrase 'outbound flight' mean anything to you? Yes, even the Galactic Republic was still exploring. Furthermore, SW is an expansive setting, there are ancient civilisations, strange cultures in the Unexplored Regions, and other galaxies to explore.

And again, the 2000 infantry, you are arguing with TNG+ evidence. I loathe the philosphy and government style of TNG and am not defending it. I am talking about the TOS federation only. TNG feds are fucking pussies who are even more incompetant and pathetic than the Galactic Empire.

----

Your argument defending Tarkin's record is farcical. Consider.

1. As you say, he was indeed more concerned about politics than military matters.
2. The Death Star was destroyed by a small group of fighters and a smuggler ship.
3. He was informed that there was a danger of this attack being successful.
4. He could have done far more to fend off the attack than he did.
5. He, and millions of men under his command, died because he did not order the above.

Number one is your excuse for him not being a competant commander. It is in fact why he was incompetant. I would not be critisising him so if number three were not true, because frankly, until then, indeed, he seemed to be in a good position. This is not a case of hindsight being twenty twenty, his underlings could see the risk, he couldn't because of his blinding arrogance.

Your argument with regard to Palpatine ignores the fact that the canon novelisation (and apparently, unshot parts of the script) indicate that Palpatine was aware Solo's group might succeed and gave orders for the moon to be destroyed in that eventuality, but didn't bother to order the rebels to be immediately destroyed by Death Squadron.

[Ghost Rider]

For the most part I gotcha Necron...though my disagreement would be that he was guaranteed the winning of the Clone wars. If Dooku got uppity there was his real chance and shot at dethroning his boss.

For the rest I have no disagreement just was wondering about the statement and nothing more.

[NecronLord]

If Dooku got uppity there was his real chance and shot at dethroning his boss.

I don't think Dooku was up to taking out Palpy, plus, the CIS leadership seemed to know all along that Dooku wasn't the top man...

[Ghost Rider]

If Dooku got uppity there was his real chance and shot at dethroning his boss.

I don't think Dooku was up to taking out Palpy, plus, the CIS leadership seemed to know all along that Dooku wasn't the top man...

True, but saying it was his best chance. Given the destabilzation and the fact that really he was working with pure lackeys. Given what they are showing of EP3 Grievous is ewssentially his right hand and the rest are yaboos who do everything and almost anything he says.

Just saying it was his shot since he has an army and navy rivalling his opponent and it's just the weird Sith brand loyalty that he didn't go "I got the plans for this swanky Death Star thing, go screw yourself Old Man!!!"

[NecronLord]

True, but saying it was his best chance. Given the destabilzation and the fact that really he was working with pure lackeys. Given what they are showing of EP3 Grievous is ewssentially his right hand and the rest are yaboos who do everything and almost anything he says.

Just saying it was his shot since he has an army and navy rivalling his opponent and it's just the weird Sith brand loyalty that he didn't go "I got the plans for this swanky Death Star thing, go screw yourself Old Man!!!"

Shame he didn't really. Definately better than what the spoilers say is his fate.