Stranded

[Connor MacLeod]

The size of Honorverse missiles pretty much screws them for the chances of reaching that 20,000 km standoff range when going up against the defenses of a GHC. The things accelerate slower than and are larger targets than a High Guard fighter. They could just start picking them off with offensive missiles at over a light minute away. Then switch to AP cannon fire and defensive missiles once the range closes down to a few light seconds. That standoff range isn't large enough to matter in this case.

1.) As I just said, standoff range assumes the target is protected by a sidewall. It can conceivably be much further away.

2.) The missiles have their own impeller wedges, remember, which a counter missile would have to contend with (although getting a down the throat shot should be easier than against a capital ship.) Same with AP cannons.

[Connor MacLeod]

chance for the much smaller Andromeda missiles to get through PD range, Sidewalls, and/or particle shields is just as slim.

I don't think the PDs are going to be that devastatingly useful against High Guard missiles that are much smaller, faster, and have no wedge for them to track.

PD is admittedly less effective, but this is offset by the fact that SD's have far more extensive point defense than the XMC. For that matter, the wedge and sidewalls are enough to defend the ship alone even if the missiles COULD penetrate (a strong gravitic field like the wedge/sidewall will not only blocik the missile, but distort its sensors.)

And while the kinetic missiles have no wedge to track, this does not mean they aren't emitting in OTHER ways (IE reaction drive?)

In the same way the missiles shouldn't have too many problems going for a throat/kilt shot on the SDP.

Except for the Bow/Stern walls SD(P)'s possess. Their acceleration already sucks against the XMC, so they don't really lose anyhting by "going turtle."

And even then, the "broadside" nature of most Honorverse combat and the sheer size of the impeller wedges/sidewall help to insure that they can bring it to bear (Unless they're very close, as in nearly energy range, the turning radius of the SD(P) is likely to be far smaller than that of the XMC.)

Do the particle shields suffer cumulative damage and then fall? Or is there a certain threshold you have to be over to induce them to fail?

Threshold it would seem.

[Connor MacLeod]

True, but if the bow wall is brought up only to block missiles, the Medusa will be able to maneuver as soon as it drops the wall. Even if the AP beam is capable of striking at long range, that does not necessarily mean that it will deal damage. Remember, a sidewall is immune to grasers and X-ray lasers at ranges greater than 40,000 km. Is an AP beam that much more powerful than a gamma ray laser that it would penetrate such a shield? (And I am asking this in seriousness, I don't know the energy outputs of either). And I do agree that EW, particularly Ghost Rider EW, will probably cause targeting problems, since it can simulate all the characteristics of the ship from energy output to gravitic signature. Only visual is known to be able to tell the difference easily, and at 3 or 4 light seconds of range visual is going to be hard to obtain.

To penetrate a sidewall with a laser or graser you need to be at a range of 500,000 km or less (which is probably for the graser) and more like 400,000 km or less to insure penetration. X-ray/laser heads require the 20,000-50,000 km "Stand off" against the sidewall for penetration, not the energy weapons. (which just shows you teh difference in raw power between the energy weapons and missile warheads )

AP cannons are going to be about as effective as energy torps against a sidewall (They're antiproton weapons - IE PArticle beams, remember.) Meaning they're as likely to penetrate as the kinetic missiles are.

[Connor MacLeod]

Good point...is there any canon reference to the Shrike style bowwalls and sternwalls being installed on capital ships? If so, it would become a matter of "incoming salvo! Raise walls!" in which case the ship would become much tougher. I really need my books.

Page 405, Ashes of Victory mentions SD(P)'s being equipped with bow walls. I assume most modern warships would mount them (at least the Pod SD's would).

Ironically, the opposite page 404 gives us a notion of how tough SD's are against laser attacks. It was mentioned that SD's (I think) require scores or even hundreds of missile hits to take the ship out - presumably this is because of active/passive defenses. So we know that SD's could easily weather damage in the low to possibly mid GT range.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, if they would be able to do damage: Activate Bow and Stern Walls

Then the GHC can close down the range on the immobile SDP and engage with AP cannons. AP Cannons according to your statement earlier and All Systems out range Mantie energy weapons by a light second.

Err. They're glorified particle beams. They won't pierce a sidewall unless they have some strange anti-gravity properites or are somehow massless. (canon from "On Basilisk Station" that energy torpedoes - plasma bolts moving at near-c, are useless against a sidewall. Plasma, like antiprotons, are basically a mass of charged particles.)

With Bow/stern walls up, there is NO chance for an XMC to harm a SD(P), unless they somehow use mass fired proximity nuke detonations (nukes release radiation remember) or whatever their equivalent is (M/AM warheads) or their point defense lasers (which are charitably high MW/low GW range)

The High Guard uses AG technology in a lot of their equipment and have shown the capability to have sensors that should be able to detect the sidewall and wedge. From that point it really isn't hard to jump to the next logical step that there is nothing at the throat and kilt.

And by that same logic, the FTL gravitic sensors of a SD(P) could detect and track a XMC. There is also a small problem of finding exactly WHERE in the wedge that SD(P) is (you're talking about 3 km ship hiding in a wedge that is a hundred + km across/wide?)

[Renewed_Valour1]

In Andromeda, the primary shipkiller is the kinetic warhead.

The primarily used missiles in mass numbers if the Om-5 Kinetic kill. The actual missiles that are labeled as antiship missiles are the variants of the PM-6 Smart Missiles.

The real problem of course is the "Stand off" aspect of the warheads - they don't require precise hits with the missile to destroy the ship - and while the GHC can outrun the missiles for the most part, they CAN'T outrun the payload once the warhead detonates. All the missile has to do is get roughly in the vicinity of the ship.

That standoff ranges considering the size of the missile and low number of them isn't that great of an advantage. Even if we assume they have a standoff capability of 1 light second. The defensive missiles can engage out to a light second away from the ship and the AP cannons and PDLs can open up at 4 LS. You might have to achieve a down the throat shot to kill a Honorverse missiles but DM-5s are capable of achieving a kinetic nose to nose kill against a fist sized offensive missiles. That coupled with the fact that the Honorverse missiles are slow enough and large enough to engage them with OM-5s extends the point defenses out to potentially a light minute.

And while the kinetic missiles have no wedge to track, this does not mean they aren't emitting in OTHER ways (IE reaction drive?)

The missiles have AP engines and yes they will be emitting in some ways but not in the way that the Honorverse heavily relies on to track missiles.

With Bow/stern walls up, there is NO chance for an XMC to harm a SD(P), unless they somehow use mass fired proximity nuke detonations (nukes release radiation remember) or whatever their equivalent is (M/AM warheads) or their point defense lasers (which are charitably high MW/low GW range)

Well we do know that AP warheads exist for smart missiles and they can be set to proximity detonations. Hunt took out the Balance of Judgment using warheads ejected from the Maru and then used them as proximity contact mines when the inertia carried them into the path of the DSX.

There is also a small problem of finding exactly WHERE in the wedge that SD(P) is (you're talking about 3 km ship hiding in a wedge that is a hundred + km across/wide?)

Correct me if I'm wrong from the limited number of Honor Harrington novels I've read. I've always thought the vessel was at the center of the wedge?

[Dahak]

In Andromeda, the primary shipkiller is the kinetic warhead.

The primarily used missiles in mass numbers if the Om-5 Kinetic kill. The actual missiles that are labeled as antiship missiles are the variants of the PM-6 Smart Missiles.

The real problem of course is the "Stand off" aspect of the warheads - they don't require precise hits with the missile to destroy the ship - and while the GHC can outrun the missiles for the most part, they CAN'T outrun the payload once the warhead detonates. All the missile has to do is get roughly in the vicinity of the ship.

That standoff ranges considering the size of the missile and low number of them isn't that great of an advantage. Even if we assume they have a standoff capability of 1 light second. The defensive missiles can engage out to a light second away from the ship and the AP cannons and PDLs can open up at 4 LS. You might have to achieve a down the throat shot to kill a Honorverse missiles but DM-5s are capable of achieving a kinetic nose to nose kill against a fist sized offensive missiles. That coupled with the fact that the Honorverse missiles are slow enough and large enough to engage them with OM-5s extends the point defenses out to potentially a light minute.

And while the kinetic missiles have no wedge to track, this does not mean they aren't emitting in OTHER ways (IE reaction drive?)

The missiles have AP engines and yes they will be emitting in some ways but not in the way that the Honorverse heavily relies on to track missiles.

With Bow/stern walls up, there is NO chance for an XMC to harm a SD(P), unless they somehow use mass fired proximity nuke detonations (nukes release radiation remember) or whatever their equivalent is (M/AM warheads) or their point defense lasers (which are charitably high MW/low GW range)

Well we do know that AP warheads exist for smart missiles and they can be set to proximity detonations. Hunt took out the Balance of Judgment using warheads ejected from the Maru and then used them as proximity contact mines when the inertia carried them into the path of the DSX.

There is also a small problem of finding exactly WHERE in the wedge that SD(P) is (you're talking about 3 km ship hiding in a wedge that is a hundred + km across/wide?)

Correct me if I'm wrong from the limited number of Honor Harrington novels I've read. I've always thought the vessel was at the center of the wedge?

For one, the missiles aren't "defenseless", they carry quite some heavy EW and ECM capabilities to survive through point defense. So they won't be such easy targets. Especially not if they are Ghost Rider missiles and/or Ghost Rider drones included.

About positions inside wedges, a qoute from DW himself:
"In addition, a ship can shift position somewhat within the area of its wedge. One can predict exactly where a ship will be within the volume of its wedge if it is seeking to attain the maximum possible acceleration (assuming that one has solid, reliable numbers on its inertial compensator's performance envelope), but at lower accelerations, ships can move "off center" within their wedges."

[Renewed_Valour1]

For one, the missiles aren't "defenseless", they carry quite some heavy EW and ECM capabilities to survive through point defense. So they won't be such easy targets. Especially not if they are Ghost Rider missiles and/or Ghost Rider drones included.

It isn't like the High Guard is devoid of EW capabilities. They use it in their clothing and carry around personal ECM generators. There Footprint Magnification Systems are capable of making a drone smaller than a fighter look like a 1300 meter heavy cruiser on sensor systems. In terms of ECM capability the two sides are about matched up even and cancel each other out largely.

[The Dark]

Unfortunately, I can't find the acceleration of a Medusa/Harrington class ship anywhere online, so someone with the books handy will have to answer any questions on that. Once I go home this weekend I'll have all the information back in my hands.

Probably under 500gees, and likely to be around 430-450 gees.. thats ideal of course, assuming they redline the compensators...

It's at least 466 gees, given Hamish Alexander's gate-crashing party in Echoes of Honor. It mentions that the destroyers can pull 620 gees, and that "his slowest ships" could pull 466. Given that he had both SD(P)s and SDs, we cannot say that the SD(P) is limited to 466 gees, but that is the low-end maximum acceleration of an SD(P). I would venture to reckon that it is no higher than 500, since that would be an extreme jump between normal SDs and SD(P)s, and that 466 is the most likely number.


Additionally, on the "standoff range" discussion: the standoff range of a weapon firing on sidewalls is 40% of the standoff range of a weapon firing on a non-walled opponent (cf. On Basilisk Station). Thus, the 20,000-50,000 km range of a laser warhead would actually be 50,000-125,000km (maximum of .4168 light-seconds) against a non-sidewall bearing ship. Grasers would have an effective range of 1,250,000km, or 4.168 light-seconds.

[Connor MacLeod]

It isn't like the High Guard is devoid of EW capabilities. They use it in their clothing and carry around personal ECM generators.

As noted many times. Of course there's a difference between blocking the targeting of a 100+ ton missile and the bullet of a personal handgun.

And if you're goint to pull the "Commonwealth missiles have good EW" (without much proof, btw) - I'm going to point out all that tells us is that they're probably safe against small arms fire

There Footprint Magnification Systems are capable of making a drone smaller than a fighter look like a 1300 meter heavy cruiser on sensor systems.

Honorverse has that capability to. Its called a "drone" - but not only that, their ECM can do that to a certain extent anyhow (they can mask emissions to make a ship look smaller, IE A SD to look like a BC, or a DD to look like a CL, etc.) There are also missiles that carry dedicated EW systems designed to help missiles penetrate PD, and to help protect a ship.

In terms of ECM capability the two sides are about matched up even and cancel each other out largely.

Err.. how so? Honorverse still has FTL comm and sensor advantages (and as you so nicely pointed out, the Commonweatlh uses gravitic technology - which in fact is an integral part of their propulsion.)

[Connor MacLeod]

The primarily used missiles in mass numbers if the Om-5 Kinetic kill. The actual missiles that are labeled as antiship missiles are the variants of the PM-6 Smart Missiles.

Aren't the PM-6 kinetic warheads as well?

That standoff ranges considering the size of the missile and low number of them isn't that great of an advantage. Even if we assume they have a standoff capability of 1 light second. The defensive missiles can engage out to a light second away from the ship and the AP cannons and PDLs can open up at 4 LS.

"low number?" As has been stated, it depends on how the Pod Superdreadnaught deploys. They could put out dozens, hundreds, or thousands per single salvo. Just because they don't try to put out the "constant" stream of missiles that an Andromeda ship tries to doesn't mean they can't throw large volleys.

You're still underestimating the advantage of the "stand off" capability. They don't need a contact or precise hit, they can be programmed to fire "off center" of the missile and at quite a bit of distance. This means they don't neccesarily HAVE to have the missile accurately intersect the target.. they can fire at an angle still along the target vessel's path and then have teh warhead detonate "off-center". This allows a measure of protection from the wedge against incoming fire. And even a missile's wedge is fairly large (meaning finding the missile in it can still be hard precisely). Even considering their mass, they're still only 15-30 meters in length, at most. And unlike the HV missiles, they DO need a direct hit.

And recall that the observed "standoff" is applicable to sidewall-protected targets. Warhead beams aren't as powerful as energy mount beams, hence the need to get much closer (effective range can vary according to missile type/warhead strength and the strength of the target's sidewalls.)
This means that its quite possible for the laser head to have an effective "standoff range" greater than 1-2 LS (potentially up to 4 LS, same as with energy weapons.)

You might have to achieve a down the throat shot to kill a Honorverse missiles but DM-5s are capable of achieving a kinetic nose to nose kill against a fist sized offensive missiles. That coupled with the fact that the Honorverse missiles are slow enough and large enough to engage them with OM-5s extends the point defenses out to potentially a light minute.

Their acceleration is far worse than an Andromeda missile, but they can still travel at high velocities (near-c, if not exactly AT c). And they don't need to manuver for a precise hit, as I mentioned, just keep the ship in the arc of the warhead (which they need to do for most targeting purposes anyhow).

You're also neglecting to mention that If the missile is fired at a low velocity, it still needs time to accelerate to a higher one, and that the higher the speed, the harder the time the missile will have turning (inertia at work again.) - and they NEED a direct hit to stop the missile remember. Either way works out to the advantage of the laser head missile.

I'd like some proof of the "nose to nose" hit thing, of course, unless you were being figurative.

The missiles have AP engines and yes they will be emitting in some ways but not in the way that the Honorverse heavily relies on to track missiles.

Nevertheless, they still have emissions (the reaction drive, the "gravity" field they use to reduce mass/inertia, possibly targeting system, etc.)

At worst, all this means is that they can't track the missiles accurately at FTL, (remember that the sensors in the Honorverse track gravity at FTL speeds.) This puts them little better/worse off than the XMC.

Well we do know that AP warheads exist for smart missiles and they can be set to proximity detonations. Hunt took out the Balance of Judgment using warheads ejected from the Maru and then used them as proximity contact mines when the inertia carried them into the path of the DSX.

But those warheads are proximity detonation. At most only a small portion of the energy will reach the SD, and it will have a harder time penetrating (since the spherical detonation of a M/AM reaction is not comparable to a barrage of concentrated, bomb-pumepd x-ray lasers). You'd not only need a large number of missiles, but also close detonation ranges and extremely high yields.

Correct me if I'm wrong from the limited number of Honor Harrington novels I've read. I've always thought the vessel was at the center of the wedge?

As was pointed out, they can manuver somewhat around inside the wedge, but that also neglects the fact that the wedge will distort/bend/block sensor emissions as well, making it still more difficult to accurately find (And the wedge is far too large to target the ship by alone.)

[The Dark]

Even considering their mass, they're still only 15-30 meters in length, at most.

The largest Ghost Rider missile is 32.9 meters long.

And recall that the observed "standoff" is applicable to sidewall-protected targets. Warhead beams aren't as powerful as energy mount beams, hence the need to get much closer (effective range can vary according to missile type/warhead strength and the strength of the target's sidewalls.)
This means that its quite possible for the laser head to have an effective "standoff range" greater than 1-2 LS (potentially up to 4 LS, same as with energy weapons.)

Additionally, on the "standoff range" discussion: the standoff range of a weapon firing on sidewalls is 40% of the standoff range of a weapon firing on a non-walled opponent (cf. On Basilisk Station). Thus, the 20,000-50,000 km range of a laser warhead would actually be 50,000-125,000km (maximum of .4168 light-seconds) against a non-sidewall bearing ship. Grasers would have an effective range of 1,250,000km, or 4.168 light-seconds.

[Connor MacLeod]

Additionally, on the "standoff range" discussion: the standoff range of a weapon firing on sidewalls is 40% of the standoff range of a weapon firing on a non-walled opponent (cf. On Basilisk Station). Thus, the 20,000-50,000 km range of a laser warhead would actually be 50,000-125,000km (maximum of .4168 light-seconds) against a non-sidewall bearing ship. Grasers would have an effective range of 1,250,000km, or 4.168 light-seconds.

Applicable to energy weapons, IIRC The Short Victorious War. I dont know if thats applicable to capital weapons.

In any case, you think that the beam is somehow going to become suddenly too incoherent to do any damage after barely half a light second?

[The Dark]

Additionally, on the "standoff range" discussion: the standoff range of a weapon firing on sidewalls is 40% of the standoff range of a weapon firing on a non-walled opponent (cf. On Basilisk Station). Thus, the 20,000-50,000 km range of a laser warhead would actually be 50,000-125,000km (maximum of .4168 light-seconds) against a non-sidewall bearing ship. Grasers would have an effective range of 1,250,000km, or 4.168 light-seconds.

<snipped>
In any case, you think that the beam is somehow going to become suddenly too incoherent to do any damage after barely half a light second?

No, I was just going to a logical yet absurd conclusion based upon what has been said on the board alongside the technical data in the books. I personally think the X-ray lasers would fall between lasers and grasers for penetration range based on the relative minimum energies. However, War of Honor explicitly states that 50,000km standoff range was a breakthrough for Andermani missiles.

[Connor MacLeod]

Additionally, on the "standoff range" discussion: the standoff range of a weapon firing on sidewalls is 40% of the standoff range of a weapon firing on a non-walled opponent (cf. On Basilisk Station). Thus, the 20,000-50,000 km range of a laser warhead would actually be 50,000-125,000km (maximum of .4168 light-seconds) against a non-sidewall bearing ship. Grasers would have an effective range of 1,250,000km, or 4.168 light-seconds.

<snipped>
In any case, you think that the beam is somehow going to become suddenly too incoherent to do any damage after barely half a light second?

No, I was just going to a logical yet absurd conclusion based upon what has been said on the board alongside the technical data in the books. I personally think the X-ray lasers would fall between lasers and grasers for penetration range based on the relative minimum energies. However, War of Honor explicitly states that 50,000km standoff range was a breakthrough for Andermani missiles.

Well remember we're talking effective damage range. Sidewalls effectively either "turn aside" an attack, or attenuate it enough so it does reduced damage. The range requirement may also factor in the need to do "Effective damage" aganist the target (factoring in attentuation as well as armor/target damage resistance.) - and there is lso the ray and particle shielding.

Thats why I said "potential range" for the x-ray/laser head, of course.

[Dahak]

Another advantage the laserhaed warhead posseses:
From Short Victorious War:
"The terminal bus of a laser head mounts sophisticated targeting systems and powerful attitude thrusters to enable it to align itself so as to direct the greatest number of bomb-pumped laser beams at the target, but it is also designed to have a "porcupine" effect, radiating lasers in all directions. Each laser inflicts less damage than a direct hit could have, but the chances of a hit—even multiple hits—from a single missile are greatly increased."

[guyver]

Balter would win..

He would send out all of his fighters (400 of them I think) to keep the other ships busy and make a run for the exit. He only cares about his own neck anyways.

[Dahak]

Balter would win..

He would send out all of his fighters (400 of them I think) to keep the other ships busy and make a run for the exit. He only cares about his own neck anyways.

Well, 400 mere fighters won't keep the other ships busy.
They would be small fry for the Mantie SD(P) alone...

[Renewed_Valour1]

Aren't the PM-6 kinetic warheads as well?

Some variants seem to be kinetic but there has been no firm statement on that one. However there is the implication that some have warheads. The missile warheads Hunt ejected into the path of the Balance of Judgment were high yielded AP warheads. The three missile types carried by the Andromeda are DM-5s and Om-5s that are both kinetic and the OM-6 smart missile variants. The other is that the Than used an extended range missile with high yield AP warheads to shatter the asteroid the Andromeda was hiding behind in "Dance of the Mayflies". An asteroid that would make the ESB asteroids look like sand grains from the shot of it when the Andromeda was next to it hiding. In "The Shards of Rimni" two Commonwealth frigates using extended range antiship missiles with AP warheads attacked the Maru. In both cases extended range missiles are smart missiles and smart missiles are the only missiles on All Systems labeled as an antiship missile.

http://www.ladymaigrey.com/seasontwo/mayflies/033.jpg

This means that its quite possible for the laser head to have an effective "standoff range" greater than 1-2 LS (potentially up to 4 LS, same as with energy weapons.)

That still puts them inside the range of the defensive missiles and offensive missiles at ranges well beyond the capability of the laser warheads.

You're also neglecting to mention that If the missile is fired at a low velocity, it still needs time to accelerate to a higher one, and that the higher the speed, the harder the time the missile will have turning (inertia at work again.) - and they NEED a direct hit to stop the missile remember. Either way works out to the advantage of the laser head missile.

Hence why defensive missiles are fired out of the ELS tubes at a lower velocity and operate at lower velocities relying on higher acceleration to intercept the missile. The missiles anyway regularly do achieve nose to nose kinetic kills on missiles that are smaller and can accelerate faster than a Honorverse missile. It isn't a capability that we are inferring it is a capability that exists and that is used regularly.

I'd like some proof of the "nose to nose" hit thing, of course, unless you were being figurative.

DM-5s are fired at slower velocities and rely higher accelerations and great maneuvering capability than an OM-5 or smart missile. They have no chance of catching smart missiles or kinetic missile from a tail chase or anything resembling on. In the case of "Tunnel at the End of the Light" the DM-5s Hunt fired were in all cases fired straight down the path of the incoming missiles and intercepted them nose on.

But those warheads are proximity detonation. At most only a small portion of the energy will reach the SD, and it will have a harder time penetrating (since the spherical detonation of a M/AM reaction is not comparable to a barrage of concentrated, bomb-pumepd x-ray lasers). You'd not only need a large number of missiles, but also close detonation ranges and extremely high yields.

Large number of missiles in a salvo isn't that big of a concern considering how many smart missiles the GHC and the Shrikes could salvo. Exactly how large of a yield are we talking about here?

Err.. how so? Honorverse still has FTL comm and sensor advantages (and as you so nicely pointed out, the Commonweatlh uses gravitic technology - which in fact is an integral part of their propulsion.)

The propulsion systems aren't gravity based but the GFGs do reduce the mass of the vessel to increase performance. I would also question the capability of those sensors when they aren't dealing with a disturbance as intense as a wedge or sidewall. They totally missed the presence of the Fearless in "On Basilisk Station" despite the fact that I think she was still using artificial gravity at the time but had her drives powered down.

As noted many times. Of course there's a difference between blocking the targeting of a 100+ ton missile and the bullet of a personal handgun.

All Systems makes note of the fact that the High Guard uses low observablity technology in the hulls of their vessels extensively. It has been noted several times during the course of the show at different points. In the case of "D Minus Zero" the Restorians had to lure the Andromeda into a specific confined area and strike her with radioactive "paintball" missiles in order to get enough of a return off her hull to engage her with accuracy.

Honorverse has that capability to. Its called a "drone" - but not only that, their ECM can do that to a certain extent anyhow (they can mask emissions to make a ship look smaller, IE A SD to look like a BC, or a DD to look like a CL, etc.)

See my comments about the low observablity hulls and in addition All Systems lays forth some other active fenses. Using the radiating countermeasure generators and other equipment including the "chaff" that the writers have hinted at before a vessel can generate false targets of itself around to misdirect an attempt by active sensors to track it.
All Systems under Sensors:
"ES/A-9R Electronic Support and Attack Measure Suite
Detects active sensor and communications emissions from hostile assets, including ships and missiles. The EA component of the package can be used to jam both types of signals, and in some cases to overload the hostile transceiver and destroy it."

There are also missiles that carry dedicated EW systems designed to help missiles penetrate PD, and to help protect a ship.

Oracle and Janus sensor drones fulfill a similar role of guiding in and providing jamming support for swarms of missiles.

Balter would win..

He would send out all of his fighters (400 of them I think) to keep the other ships busy and make a run for the exit. He only cares about his own neck anyways.

He has to find it… In order to do that you must get within 5,000 meters of it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some variants seem to be kinetic but there has been no firm statement on that one. However there is the implication that some have warheads. The missile warheads Hunt ejected into the path of the Balance of Judgment were high yielded AP warheads. The three missile types carried by the Andromeda are DM-5s and Om-5s that are both kinetic and the OM-6 smart missile variants. The other is that the Than used an extended range missile with high yield AP warheads to shatter the asteroid the Andromeda was hiding behind in "Dance of the Mayflies". An asteroid that would make the ESB asteroids look like sand grains from the shot of it when the Andromeda was next to it hiding. In "The Shards of Rimni" two Commonwealth frigates using extended range antiship missiles with AP warheads attacked the Maru. In both cases extended range missiles are smart missiles and smart missiles are the only missiles on All Systems labeled as an antiship missile.

http://www.ladymaigrey.com/seasontwo/mayflies/033.jpg

Ok, so they can. But the yield would arguably be less than a gigaton, since thats the upper limit capability of the Oracle's kinetic yield (if it were greater, the Oracle's ability would be kinda superfluous.)

That still puts them inside the range of the defensive missiles and offensive missiles at ranges well beyond the capability of the laser warheads.

Regarding the OM's - not really, since the OM's HAVE to contact to do damage. Range wise, the HV missiles have similar range to Andromeda missiles.

Regarding the DM's, while yes it does still put them within point defense range, but then it becomes a matter of whether the defensive missile can intercept the laser head before it detonates (remember that this will depend upon the HV missile's closing velocity, the velocity/acceleration of the defensive missile, and the actual range.) Simply "being in range" will not guarantee interception.

Hence why defensive missiles are fired out of the ELS tubes at a lower velocity and operate at lower velocities relying on higher acceleration to intercept the missile.

Fine, but if thats teh case, you're simply giving the missile a greater chance to get to a closer standoff distance before detonating. There's a trade off here.

The missiles anyway regularly do achieve nose to nose kinetic kills on missiles that are smaller and can accelerate faster than a Honorverse missile. It isn't a capability that we are inferring it is a capability that exists and that is used regularly.

And just how accurate is this "nose on" interception (ie how many missiles do they intercept out of a salvo, and at what ranges?)

Besides which, all that means is that if they can find the missile, they should have the ability to hit it. Neither size of the missile nor its "lower" acceleration rate guarantee that the defensive missiles will have an easier time hitting. (this is more than just EW - it incorporates the dynamics of the impeller wedges, the nature of the missile and its warhead, and will vary according to the distances between ships.)

Also, acceleration/velocity of the missiles only matters when the "interception time" is short (IE close range).

DM-5s are fired at slower velocities and rely higher accelerations and great maneuvering capability than an OM-5 or smart missile. They have no chance of catching smart missiles or kinetic missile from a tail chase or anything resembling on. In the case of "Tunnel at the End of the Light" the DM-5s Hunt fired were in all cases fired straight down the path of the incoming missiles and intercepted them nose on.

So basically "nose to nose" is a figurative term for intercepting incoming missiles. This isnt neccesarily a "difficult" thing - as I said, it will depend on the offensive missiles velocity, the range it was done at (what range was the missile fired at? a couple LS or tens of LS?)

And I thought visuals were questionable in andromeda, so why are you using them as justification of the "nose on nose" accuracy?

Large number of missiles in a salvo isn't that big of a concern considering how many smart missiles the GHC and the Shrikes could salvo. Exactly how large of a yield are we talking about here?

Rough guess? Defenses and all, it takes probably around at least 40 ("scores"), and quite possibly hundreds (IE less than a thousand) megaton-range laser heads (50-60 low end, 200-250 probable higher, since 50-60 MT seems to be cruiser-sized warheads). You also have to consider that a nuke is not a laser head - the latter deliver their energy in a far more concentrated form, which makes them harder for the sidewalls to diffuse (which is one reason why laser heads are used instead of nukes.)

Exact yield is going to be hard to say. I do think that megaton-range nukes (standard, not laser head) are generally ineffective against sidewalls, though (I think it was mentioned in Short, Victorious War)
The energy to penetrate probably is mid KT-low MT range (the rough yield per laser from a laser head. To achieve penetration, the detonations would have to deliver the same amount of energy to the same are, or greater.

Just how many AM warheads are we talking per salvo, for that matter, and what kind of yield.

The propulsion systems aren't gravity based but the GFGs do reduce the mass of the vessel to increase performance.

That still counts as part of the drive system. Without that gravitic technobabble mass lightening, they would not accelerate anywhere near as fast as they do.

I would also question the capability of those sensors when they aren't dealing with a disturbance as intense as a wedge or sidewall. They totally missed the presence of the Fearless in "On Basilisk Station" despite the fact that I think she was still using artificial gravity at the time but had her drives powered down.

Er... WTF? They have to use their silly AG tech to reduce the "mass" of the ship to accelerate faster - this same field apparently also is used as a defense against incoming missiles and to open slipstream portals (If I remember the science advisor's earlier comments, the AG field also provides a small "boost" to outgoing missiles and also is used to push aside interstellar debris)

While I agree that the signature of the fields probably aren't as large or intense as a sidewall (as I recall, they have no effect whatsoever on photons) - this is nowhere NEAR what you appear to be claiming (IE if its not as strong as a sidewall they won't detect a ship.)

And where did I say they would use the life support AG to detect ships? They use it in other ways. Aside from the problem that the artificial grav used in life support is internal (meaning the hull can probably shield its emissions) there's a VAST difference between "providing one or two g's of internal gravity" and the apparent gravity fields they use for defense, nav deflectors, or mass reduction (however the hell that works.) Incidentally, this applies to your example from Basilisk Station as well.

All Systems makes note of the fact that the High Guard uses low observablity technology in the hulls of their vessels extensively. It has been noted several times during the course of the show at different points. In the case of "D Minus Zero" the Restorians had to lure the Andromeda into a specific confined area and strike her with radioactive "paintball" missiles in order to get enough of a return off her hull to engage her with accuracy.

So their hulls are stealthed? They have low-signature materials for stealthing (as well as EW tech that can mask signatures, including to certain extent Impeller wedges) in the Honorverse as well.

I'm at a loss to see what this has to do with your earlier assertations about the personal EW generators or the supposed EW capabilities of the missiles - something can be heavily stealthed in the hull yet emitting enough to be targeted.

See my comments about the low observablity hulls and in addition All Systems lays forth some other active fenses. Using the radiating countermeasure generators and other equipment including the "chaff" that the writers have hinted at before a vessel can generate false targets of itself around to misdirect an attempt by active sensors to track it.
All Systems under Sensores:e
"ES/A-9R Electronic Support and Attack Measure Suite
Detects active sensor and communications emissions from hostile assets, including ships and missiles. The EA component of the package can be used to jam both types of signals, and in some cases to overload the hostile transceiver and destroy it."

All fancy words for sensor systems that either jam, mask, or deceive sensors via EW. As I already pointed out, the Honorverse has their methods of sensor deception/decoys in several ways (including the more recent ghost rider tech.)

They also have jamming systems as well.

Oracle and Janus sensor drones fulfill a similar role of guiding in and providing jamming support for swarms of missiles.

Fine.

[The Dark]

DM-5s are fired at slower velocities and rely higher accelerations and great maneuvering capability than an OM-5 or smart missile. They have no chance of catching smart missiles or kinetic missile from a tail chase or anything resembling on. In the case of "Tunnel at the End of the Light" the DM-5s Hunt fired were in all cases fired straight down the path of the incoming missiles and intercepted them nose on.

So basically "nose to nose" is a figurative term for intercepting incoming missiles. This isnt neccesarily a "difficult" thing - as I said, it will depend on the offensive missiles velocity, the range it was done at (what range was the missile fired at? a couple LS or tens of LS?)

Wait...they were fired "straight down the path"? In other words, they achieved a nose-on intercept on a non-maneuvering target (since there would be no straight path to a maneuvering target)? I would be disappointed in a ROCK that was fired straight down the path of an oncoming missile that didn't hit head-on (sorry if this is sounding a bit vitriolic, it's late and I'm tired, and I just thought that phrase sounded good). All that shows is that Captain Hunt (or the computer, more likely) can calculate a straight line between two constantly accelerating bodies and send a third body to intercept. That's not exactly basic algebra, but it doesn't require a NASA scientist to figure it out either. Plus, as said before, it would have to hit a maneuvering target at at least half a light-second to prevent stand-off fire, possibly as high as four and a half light-seconds, when the missile will be traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light (posted somewhere back around page 2 or 3 of this thread).

[Connor MacLeod]

Well thats sort of to be expected. Remember that as kinetic warheads, they require tremendous velocity to impart their damage. Since they're traveling so fast, manuvering becomes much more difficult (and paths become more predictable.)

This could be offset some depending on the range - if we're talking say a couple LS, then it might be rather impressive - basically the reaction times could be so short that they noticed, calculated, and reacted to the incoming fire in a couple seconds.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Ok, so they can. But the yield would arguably be less than a gigaton, since thats the upper limit capability of the Oracle's kinetic yield (if it were greater, the Oracle's ability would be kinda superfluous.)

I would tend to agree. The asteroid "cracking event" in "Dance of the Mayflies" could allude to anything from something between a hundred megatons or well into the gigaton range for the extreme high ends. Tyr stated the asteroid was "destroyed and gone", the visuals however showed fragments of an undetermined size, and Harper seemed to think there was a narrow chance the Andromeda might be mistaken for a fragment on the Than sensors. So essentially in my uneducated opinion you have very little to go on for getting any calculations out of it other than a guess range.

My guess for smart missile yields is somewhere between 200 and 500 megatons based on the attack drone capability and the hypotheses of the 100 megaton yield for the MIRV smart missiles.

Range wise, the HV missiles have similar range to Andromeda missiles.

They have something approaching a range of 24 light minutes to match extended range smart missiles?

This isnt neccesarily a "difficult" thing - as I said, it will depend on the offensive missiles velocity, the range it was done at (what range was the missile fired at? a couple LS or tens of LS?) And I thought visuals were questionable in Andromeda, so why are you using them as justification of the "nose on nose" accuracy?

The visuals are an interpretation of the action that the use can understand and follow is the official stance by the writers and tech advisor to paraphrase. In this case Hunt calling up a tactical display of his launching and controlling the defensive missiles supported the visuals of a head on intercept for the defensive missiles.

In this case I was able to use the tactical display to get a rough guess of range. Mind you my timing is nowhere near precise. The missiles had they continued at there present speed would have taken between 5 to 8 seconds from launch to hitting the Andromeda. So I think you're dealing with probably a range of 3 to 7 light seconds considering the 85 to 95 PSL?

Just how many AM warheads are we talking per salvo, for that matter, and what kind of yield.

Figuring the launch rate of the Glorious Heritage Cruisers ELS tubes it would be 320 a second. See above for the rest.

While I agree that the signature of the fields probably aren't as large or intense as a sidewall (as I recall, they have no effect whatsoever on photons)

High Guard AG fields are not strong enough to have a significant effect on photons either so you're dealing with something much weaker than a sidewall in this case too. My main point of contention is that I would just have to question the ability of sensors that is essentially built for tracking much more powerful fields to track something that is much weaker or at least track it with the same degree of accuracy.

I think the big argument we are missing here is whether or not Hunt or Honor would fire upon each other without first talking to each other when they have information on each other's backgrounds.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ok, so they can. But the yield would arguably be less than a gigaton, since thats the upper limit capability of the Oracle's kinetic yield (if it were greater, the Oracle's ability would be kinda superfluous.)

I would tend to agree. The asteroid "cracking event" in "Dance of the Mayflies" could allude to anything from something between a hundred megatons or well into the gigaton range for the extreme high ends. Tyr stated the asteroid was "destroyed and gone", the visuals however showed fragments of an undetermined size, and Harper seemed to think there was a narrow chance the Andromeda might be mistaken for a fragment on the Than sensors. So essentially in my uneducated opinion you have very little to go on for getting any calculations out of it other than a guess range.

Although there's no reason to believe that the Andromeda would neccesariely have the same yield weapons as the Than (And vice versa.)

Do we even know how many missiles were used?

My guess for smart missile yields is somewhere between 200 and 500 megatons based on the attack drone capability and the hypotheses of the 100 megaton yield for the MIRV smart missiles.

the upper end might be able to do some damage through sidealls - standard nukes are known to be in the 200-250 megaton range (possibly higher, but the hghest is 250 MT) yet as we said, sidewalls are very resistant to standard nukes (partly why laser heads are used.)

They have something approaching a range of 24 light minutes to match extended range smart missiles?

You said offensive missiles, not the smart missiles.

Anyhow, IIRC there is no "hard" upper limit on range for MDM missiles - since they have 3 independent drive units. They can use one or two to accelerate the missile and leave the third for manuvering (and the combined active drive times can vary between 180 to 900 seconds, I believe)

The visuals are an interpretation of the action that the use can understand and follow is the official stance by the writers and tech advisor to paraphrase. In this case Hunt calling up a tactical display of his launching and controlling the defensive missiles supported the visuals of a head on intercept for the defensive missiles.

I'mnot sure others would agree but I'm not really interesting to argue policy (not that I need to really bother doing so for the purposes of the debate)

In this case I was able to use the tactical display to get a rough guess of range. Mind you my timing is nowhere near precise. The missiles had they continued at there present speed would have taken between 5 to 8 seconds from launch to hitting the Andromeda. So I think you're dealing with probably a range of 3 to 7 light seconds considering the 85 to 95 PSL?

Ok, so how long from detection time to interception? It seems to be around 3-7 seconds roughly to acquire the missiles, which is comparable to HV point defense reaction times.

The question then becomes of how fast the missiles are traveling and the distance they travel before interception.

Figuring the launch rate of the Glorious Heritage Cruisers ELS tubes it would be 320 a second. See above for the rest.

Er.. so these 200-500 megaton AM warheads are the same size as standard OMs?

High Guard AG fields are not strong enough to have a significant effect on photons either so you're dealing with something much weaker than a sidewall in this case too.

I already said that.

My main point of contention is that I would just have to question the ability of sensors that is essentially built for tracking much more powerful fields to track something that is much weaker or at least track it with the same degree of accuracy.

All this means is that they can't detect a Andromeda vessel as far out as a n Honorverse one. We dont know exactly *How* strong the AG fields are. But the suggestion would be pretty strong, given the "energy" they impart to missiles without changing the actual mass (in other words - the kinetic missile accelerates as if its a small fraction of its true mass, yet it retains that true mass for purposes of calculating its KE yield. Obviously, that energy comes from SOMEWHERE.)

So while the range mayt not be as good as against an Impeller ship, its still likely to be quite far - and for that matter, easier to localize, since the field is nowhere near as voluminous as an Impeller wedge.

I think the big argument we are missing here is whether or not Hunt or Honor would fire upon each other without first talking to each other when they have information on each other's backgrounds.

I would presume they would be hostile either as apart of their objectives, or simply to prevent one person from tricking the others.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Although there's no reason to believe that the Andromeda would neccesariely have the same yield weapons as the Than (And vice versa.)

Than technology is largely just left over Commonwealth technology. They are using the same equipment essentially that their Home Guard was using 300 years ago prior to the fall. So there is a good chance that if the Than have a given piece of weapons technology the Andromeda probably has it.

Do we even know how many missiles were used?

Harper from the sensor data figured a single missile using possibly multiple high yield AP warheads.

Er.. so these 200-500 megaton AM warheads are the same size as standard OMs?

The smart missiles aren't the same size as the OM-5s but the same ELS tubes are used to launch them. We have the firing rate of 8 rounds a second from both the writers and "The Prince" for the ELS tubes.