The vs. of Values and Tactics

[Darth Wong]

It's one thing to say that there was incompetence in the Empire officer corps; a Stalinist regime will tend to cause that problem. But it is quite another to say that one must therefore conclude that TOS had a more competent officer corps; that does not follow at all.

When comparing A and B, you cannot simply examine B in isolation; you must ... you know ... compare. How many times were Kirk and Co. kidnapped by primitives? Not just once, but repeatedly, sometimes repeatedly in the same episode. And he was supposedly the Federation's most brilliant captain! And why would a droid-controlled ship (M5) be able to so easily take out enemy vessels unless there is something seriously wrong with their tactics? There are limits to how much a faster decision-making process should affect the balance of power between an entire fleet and one ship, for fuck's sake. What about setting up military border outposts without bothering to do any reconaissance of the surrounding area, thus leading to the Gorn attack? What about Commodore Decker deliberately evacuating his entire crew by stranding them on the nearest planet while fighting a planet-killer even though his ship's damage was such that it could be repaired by Scotty and a couple of other guys and then limp off at impulse speed? Never thought something could go wrong with this plan? What about Genius Spock being the only man in the entire Federation who ever thought of trying to track a cloaked ship by its exhaust, after decades of dealing with cloaked Romulan vessels?

It takes the TOS federation so fucking long to figure anything out that for someone to implicitly treat them as competent is simply absurd at best, or dishonest at worst.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So again, the only thing causing the Empire to win, is their technology, in this case their experience with it.

Actually, it is their strategic concepts on how to use force. Don't blame the change in tech level for things like the Federation's well known lack of such concepts as combined arms. That is a huge, pervasive weakness, which you choose to either ignore or minimize in favor of local errors.

The supposed rigidity of Imperial training may be a huge pervasive weakness. Localized errors are not.

To put it another way, if I'm an Imperial commander in this scenario, I can point to clear Federation weaknesses and exploit them. What can you do as the Fed commander in comparison? Sit and pray I'd make a mistake? What will be the nature of the mistake I'd make?

The demonstratable gross incompetance of thier leaders and the majority of their officer corps remains.

The demonstatable occasional error (which unfortunately had great consequences) of an extreme minority, which you chose to assume is the center or better of the bell curve, rather than the bottom combined with awful luck.

To address the mistakes in your argument: The TOS federation did not see its military as an exploration force. The Enterprise was assigned to exploration, yes, but there were no illusions of it being a civillian group as there are in TNG+. Offhand, the best example is the way the federation's scientists rant about the 'military' in ST2.

So it was a military exploration force instead of a civvie one.

As for what the exploration arm of Starfleet would do without the rest of the galaxy to explore, does the phrase 'outbound flight' mean anything to you? Yes, even the Galactic Republic was still exploring. Furthermore, SW is an expansive setting, there are ancient civilisations, strange cultures in the Unexplored Regions, and other galaxies to explore.

Outbound Flight sounds fun, but even SW tech is far from truly mastering long range intergalactic flight, so it will be low scale (just like the present Federation does not spend a huge proportion of its ships going on long range missions.

The important thing is what would happen to the Fleet strength. What would the Federation's Starfleet do? We know the Empire's idea of what's needed to secure the galaxy and we know what the NR's idea is (something of each anyway), but what about the Federation?

And again, the 2000 infantry, you are arguing with TNG+ evidence. I loathe the philosphy and government style of TNG and am not defending it. I am talking about the TOS federation only. TNG feds are fucking pussies who are even more incompetant and pathetic than the Galactic Empire.

I'd love to fill in that missing data spot (of which I'd admit are many) about how many troops would defend a first rate planet in TOS, and what will they be armed with. Without it, I can only extrapolate from existing datapoints.

Your argument defending Tarkin's record is farcical. Consider.

Hey! You are a mod! I could have sworn that wasn't there when I first saw your post!

Number one is your excuse for him not being a competant commander. It is in fact why he was incompetant. I would not be critisising him so if number three were not true, because frankly, until then, indeed, he seemed to be in a good position.

He was informed there was a theoretical chance that it could be successful. As a commander, he had to weigh the risks and benefits. Darth Vader had already scrambled with his best men (at least according to the novelization, my memory of the film is old and a bit blurry).

Clausewitz had said something about War being a mere extension of politics by other means. And the Death Star is more political than most. He performed the evaluative function and decided that the politics can win out over the minimal risk. He still held all the cards at this point.

For extra fun: if you believe the novelization, Darth Vader had already ordered for "all" fighters to be scrambled, so the fact that so few scrambled might have been a result of preceding unreadiness, because they didn't think there would be a threat back then (back at that point where even you agree Tarkin holds all the cards). So perhaps the real situation was that there was literally nothing he could do. Evacuate? That means he's thinking the attack has a good chance (not a theoretical possibility). And what a great leader he would be, leaving at least a million men in the lurch while he flees in his personal ship...

Your argument with regard to Palpatine ignores the fact that the canon novelisation (and apparently, unshot parts of the script) indicate that Palpatine was aware Solo's group might succeed and gave orders for the moon to be destroyed in that eventuality, but didn't bother to order the rebels to be immediately destroyed by Death Squadron.

1) The frag pattern from destroying Endor should go a long way towards that!
2) The message itself was clearly intended to torment. It is quite clear he is not giving the Rebels much chance (if he seriously thinks a commando strike had a chance, he simply wouldn't have let them on the planet), but he just has to slam the door, so he's saying "Even if your friends somehow destroy the generator, they won't live. They will die ... along with Endor." There's little reason to specifically order Death Squadron to destroy the Fleet. He's already arranging for that to be done with his flashy new superlaser.

[NecronLord]

When comparing A and B, you cannot simply examine B in isolation; you must ... you know ... compare. How many times were Kirk and Co. kidnapped by primitives?

Offhand, three, I think. It's probably far more.

Not just once, but repeatedly, sometimes repeatedly in the same episode. And he was supposedly the Federation's most brilliant captain! And why would a droid-controlled ship (M5) be able to so easily take out enemy vessels unless there is something seriously wrong with their tactics?

Or the AI was just smarter than they are. Which is quite logical. A computer could operate in microseconds, and thick through any manouver thousands of times in the time it takes a human to think that he might want to do something.

There are limits to how much a faster decision-making process should affect the balance of power between an entire fleet and one ship, for fuck's sake.

What about setting up military border outposts without bothering to do any reconaissance of the surrounding area, thus leading to the Gorn attack?

The Gorn were rumour until that point. It is clear the Gorn claim far more territory than they are acutally present in.

What about Commodore Decker deliberately evacuating his entire crew by stranding them on the nearest planet while fighting a planet-killer even though his ship's damage was such that it could be repaired by Scotty and a couple of other guys and then limp off at impulse speed?

I am unaware of extenuating circumstances for this.

Never thought something could go wrong with this plan? What about Genius Spock being the only man in the entire Federation who ever thought of trying to track a cloaked ship by its exhaust, after decades of dealing with cloaked Romulan vessels?

Such equipment was not standard, and was, more to the point, only able to work because of the Klingons approaching to a laughably close range. Hell, if we want to be pedantic, why did the empire not install CGT technology around Coruscant, given that cloaking technology had been known to exist since TPM?

It takes the TOS federation so fucking long to figure anything out that for someone to implicitly treat them as competent is simply absurd at best, or dishonest at worst.

I said half-competant. I am well aware that they have their faults, but at least the TOS federation occasionally came up with good ideas, whereas most of the Empire's officer corps seem to be unable to find their way out of a paper bag with a tricorder a torch and a map, was plagued by disloyalty (oh no, Griff wasn't incompetant, just a traitor!) and managed to loose battles against the Fucking rebels, whose entire fleet was the size of one their fleet at Endor.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Or the AI was just smarter than they are. Which is quite logical. A computer could operate in microseconds, and thick through any manouver thousands of times in the time it takes a human to think that he might want to do something.

Yes, it can think through many maneuvers, but it can still only execute one of them. There are really only so many ways a ship can move.

The Gorn were rumour until that point. It is clear the Gorn claim far more territory than they are acutally present in.

You mean, a "theoretical possibility" that was rated too low?

Such equipment was not standard, and was, more to the point, only able to work because of the Klingons approaching to a laughably close range. Hell, if we want to be pedantic, why did the empire not install CGT technology around Coruscant, given that cloaking technology had been known to exist since TPM?

Probably because they were doing OK by tracking exhaust trails. Back to the Feddies It is still their best chance barring new tech, and even in TNG (when tech presumably got better), the ideal cloak attack range was about 300m-3km (IIRC Hero Worship). That's close enough.

I said half-competant. I am well aware that they have their faults, but at least the TOS federation occasionally came up with good ideas,

Too bad all of them put together can't seem to solve some of the Federation's more underlying problems.

and managed to loose battles against the Fucking rebels, whose entire fleet was the size of one their fleet at Endor.

The Fleet at Endor versus an Imperial Squadron looks pretty good. It is a simple matter of guerilla warfare and local superiority.

[NecronLord]

Actually, it is their strategic concepts on how to use force. Don't blame the change in tech level for things like the Federation's well known lack of such concepts as combined arms. That is a huge, pervasive weakness, which you choose to either ignore or minimize in favor of local errors.

The supposed rigidity of Imperial training may be a huge pervasive weakness. Localized errors are not.

To put it another way, if I'm an Imperial commander in this scenario, I can point to clear Federation weaknesses and exploit them. What can you do as the Fed commander in comparison? Sit and pray I'd make a mistake? What will be the nature of the mistake I'd make?

What are these weaknesses? Again, Kirk's lot were not pacifists by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite compared to shoot people of an equivalent level of advancement. The examples where they don't use direct force to solve problems that require it are usually due to their being outnumbered or out-teched.

The demonstatable occasional

Occasional? Practically every Imperial decision was a mistake.

error (which unfortunately had great consequences) of an extreme minority, which you chose to assume is the center or better of the bell curve, rather than the bottom combined with awful luck.

Okay. Name me an Imperial Victory against an opponent they don't hideously outnumber and hold all the technical advantages against. In fact, name me an Imperial Victory other than Hoth.

Outbound Flight sounds fun, but even SW tech is far from truly mastering long range intergalactic flight,

Actually, the Empire developed a hyperdrive that could travel four million light years in a few weeks, and used it on the Galaxy Gun missiles.

so it will be low scale (just like the present Federation does not spend a huge proportion of its ships going on long range missions.

The important thing is what would happen to the Fleet strength. What would the Federation's Starfleet do? We know the Empire's idea of what's needed to secure the galaxy

Seven ships per inhabited planet, high end.

and we know what the NR's idea is (something of each anyway),

Do we? I don't, but I'm guessing it's pathetic.

but what about the Federation?

From what I would imagine, they built as many ships as possible, but I am unaware of any real evidence.

I'd love to fill in that missing data spot (of which I'd admit are many) about how many troops would defend a first rate planet in TOS, and what will they be armed with. Without it, I can only extrapolate from existing datapoints.

I think you extrapolate over ambitiously, we know a massive shift in thinking and planning occured between the two, I have little doubt that this would also affect the numbers of ground forces.

Hey! You are a mod! I could have sworn that wasn't there when I first saw your post!

Yes. I edited my second post into the first. It seems more logical than posting twice. I don't retro-actively edit arguments however.

He was informed there was a theoretical chance that it could be successful.

And failed to act upon it.

As a commander, he had to weigh the risks and benefits. Darth Vader had already scrambled with his best men (at least according to the novelization, my memory of the film is old and a bit blurry).

I suppose they could be, but in the film, he just seems to meet them in a corridor. In any case, he didn't reinforce Vader's wing. A critical error.

Clausewitz had said something about War being a mere extension of politics by other means. And the Death Star is more political than most. He performed the evaluative function and decided that the politics can win out over the minimal risk. He still held all the cards at this point.

Yet he failed to act on the danger.

For extra fun: if you believe the novelization, Darth Vader had already ordered for "all" fighters to be scrambled, so the fact that so few scrambled might have been a result of preceding unreadiness, because they didn't think there would be a threat back then (back at that point where even you agree Tarkin holds all the cards). So perhaps the real situation was that there was literally nothing he could do. Evacuate? That means he's thinking the attack has a good chance (not a theoretical possibility). And what a great leader he would be, leaving at least a million men in the lurch while he flees in his personal ship...

Humm. I must conceede on that one then. Tarkin isn't as bad as I had made him out to be

1) The frag pattern from destroying Endor should go a long way towards that!

And destroy Death Squadron.

2) The message itself was clearly intended to torment. It is quite clear he is not giving the Rebels much chance (if he seriously thinks a commando strike had a chance, he simply wouldn't have let them on the planet), but he just has to slam the door, so he's saying "Even if your friends somehow destroy the generator, they won't live. They will die ... along with Endor." There's little reason to specifically order Death Squadron to destroy the Fleet. He's already arranging for that to be done with his flashy new superlaser.

Still, he manged to put converting another adept to his religion over securing galactic dominion.

[NecronLord]

Yes, it can think through many maneuvers, but it can still only execute one of them. There are really only so many ways a ship can move.

It defeated three ships, yes? This hardly seems impossible to me. I'm fairly certain battles with such numerical ratios have been won by the underdogs now and then in history.

You mean, a "theoretical possibility" that was rated too low?

It's rather like the UK moving in troops to Scotland to defend against the Loch Ness Monster.

Probably because they were doing OK by tracking exhaust trails.

This has happened in Wars?

Back to the Feddies It is still their best chance barring new tech, and even in TNG (when tech presumably got better), the ideal cloak attack range was about 300m-3km (IIRC Hero Worship). That's close enough.

Ouch. There goes the whole thing about the Federation's Enemies being even more stupid than they are again.

Too bad all of them put together can't seem to solve some of the Federation's more underlying problems.

Well, if we take Rodenberry's novel, many of the problems are caused by numerous philosphical movements that are rapidly gaining ground at the grass roots, rather than being top down problems.

The Fleet at Endor versus an Imperial Squadron looks pretty good. It is a simple matter of guerilla warfare and local superiority.

The thing is, according to the EU, they started loosing progressively larger battles to the rebels, bolstered by mass defections until the rebellion took Coruscant and proclaimed a New Republic...

[Skylon]

What about Commodore Decker deliberately evacuating his entire crew by stranding them on the nearest planet while fighting a planet-killer even though his ship's damage was such that it could be repaired by Scotty and a couple of other guys and then limp off at impulse speed? Never thought something could go wrong with this plan?

On that note, it seemed Decker was under the impression once the Constellation was crippled, the Planet Killer would finish them off. That they had become the target. They couldn't get away, even if impulse was restored. Life support probably only held on the Constellation because it just had to support one guy (Decker) instead of a few hundred.

What was stupid was transporting to a planet when there was a big bad thing that had been chopping up PLANETS on the loose. Maybe jumping ship, in escape pods would have been more in order. More options...

If the damn thing destroys the Constellation and not the planet, you got a planet to survive on. If the planet is destroyed, you got the Constellation. Of course the life pods could be eaten as well...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What are these weaknesses? Again, Kirk's lot were not pacifists by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite compared to shoot people of an equivalent level of advancement. The examples where they don't use direct force to solve problems that require it are usually due to their being outnumbered or out-teched.

They weren't pacifists does not equal little things like they have a decent combined arms doctrine.

Okay. Name me an Imperial Victory against an opponent they don't hideously outnumber and hold all the technical advantages against. In fact, name me an Imperial Victory other than Hoth.

I'd admit they are hard to find, due to Rebel selective quoting. You may also note that many successful Rebel commanders originated from Imperial training (most notably Madine), which suggests there is nothing really wrong with the training itself.

Besides, most Imperial victories will be against an opponent they hideously outnumber and hold all the technical advantages against. They do have a huge resource advantage, and barring political reasons, if you have 12 divisions to throw against one, you won't try to win one on one.

Actually, the Empire developed a hyperdrive that could travel four million light years in a few weeks, and used it on the Galaxy Gun missiles.

Wasn't that only 100 million C? Besides, more to the point, something that can be used on a missile is not equivalent to something that can be used on something that can carry men.

Do we? I don't, but I'm guessing it's pathetic.

You remember their 5 fleet doctrine? That's 2500 ships. Even in SbS (that's wartime), they IIRC had maybe 10000 ships to defend Coruscant (supposedly half the Space Navy). Yes, help me.

From what I would imagine, they built as many ships as possible, but I am unaware of any real evidence.

That's precisely what I mean when I said I was doing my best to avoid extrapolation. The more you change the current dynamics of the Federation (upteching them, making them into a galaxy), the more extrapolations you have to make, and you simply have no data to make them.

I think you extrapolate over ambitiously, we know a massive shift in thinking and planning occured between the two, I have little doubt that this would also affect the numbers of ground forces.

But you have no concrete numbers.

And destroy Death Squadron.

Say you are Palpy. These stupid, annoying Rebs have been evading you for years. Honestly, if by trading off 20-30 SDs (of at least 25000), you are virtually guaranteed to eradicate them (you might note that not only the Fleet, but a good deal of the Rebel top leadership including Mon Mothma is onboard) for good, one feels very inclined to say yes.

Still, he manged to put converting another adept to his religion over securing galactic dominion.

One might note that because the Rebels believe in the Force so devoutly*, Luke Skywalker is a huge morale symbol for them. If he manages to turn him, think about the morale effect on any surviving Rebels. The man not only gets a powerful Force user for his own ends (a priceless asset in its own right), but he also deals a heavy psychological blow on his enemies, at what he assesses as minimal risk.

*They believe in it so devoutly, that they dared write it in as a reason for their victory over the Death Star (see DSTC, where one of the least professional AARs ever written were put in as an Appendix). If you replace "the Force" with "God", one sees the true nature of that awful document.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It defeated three ships, yes? This hardly seems impossible to me. I'm fairly certain battles with such numerical ratios have been won by the underdogs now and then in history.

That depends on what kind of ships they are. Ship battles are as close to firepower based as battles ever get. On land, you can resist a three to one just by digging in. At sea, things aren't that easy, much less in space.

It's rather like the UK moving in troops to Scotland to defend against the Loch Ness Monster.

How is that different from what I said? So when the Empire ignores a threat because it rated too low, and it proves to be a threat, it is an inexcusable mistake. When the Federation does the same, you agree with its assessment?

This has happened in Wars?

Ackbar mentioned it (DFR).

Well, if we take Rodenberry's novel, many of the problems are caused by numerous philosphical movements that are rapidly gaining ground at the grass roots, rather than being top down problems.

Oh, so it is not Tactics, but Values? Assuming this is valid stuff, how is the difference going to save them when the Imperial Combined Arms Army comes down on their Light Infantry Army (if a bunch of redshirts can be considered a Army in the conventional sense at all).

The thing is, according to the EU, they started loosing progressively larger battles to the rebels, bolstered by mass defections until the rebellion took Coruscant and proclaimed a New Republic...

Actually, they seemed to be mostly fighting themselves, and withdrawing of their accord.

[Darth Wong]

Necronlord, do you realize that you're trying to cherry-pick evidence for incompetence out of the EU while simultaneously claiming that all of the evidence for good Imperial commanders is found in the EU, so it doesn't count for some reason? Do you accept EU evidence of smart Imperial commanders or not? If you reject it as being less important because it's in the EU, then why are you trying to use EU evidence against Imperial commanders? Ever heard of the "stolen concept" fallacy?

[NecronLord]

Necronlord, do you realize that you're trying to cherry-pick evidence for incompetence out of the EU while simultaneously claiming that all of the evidence for good Imperial commanders is found in the EU, so it doesn't count for some reason? Do you accept EU evidence of smart Imperial commanders or not? If you reject it as being less important because it's in the EU, then why are you trying to use EU evidence against Imperial commanders? Ever heard of the "stolen concept" fallacy?

EU evidence of a smart commander. As far as I am aware, Thrawn was the only Imperial Commander we ever saw for any length of time who didn't make massive mistakes, and he was an ostrisised outsider most of the time.

[NecronLord]

They weren't pacifists does not equal little things like they have a decent combined arms doctrine.

I haven't said they do. Though, for the record, the Imperial Navy troopers appear to lack combined arms too, for the obvious reason that they're ship-board troops, like redshirts, and thus aren't expected to engage on the ground. It's more a lack of marines that is the trouble with Starfleet than lack of combined arms.

I'd admit they are hard to find, due to Rebel selective quoting. You may also note that many successful Rebel commanders originated from Imperial training (most notably Madine), which suggests there is nothing really wrong with the training itself.

Quite true, well, ignoring strange things like the insistance on marching the graduates of Cardia up to a cliff face, and seeing if they're liable to fall off.

Besides, most Imperial victories will be against an opponent they hideously outnumber and hold all the technical advantages against. They do have a huge resource advantage, and barring political reasons, if you have 12 divisions to throw against one, you won't try to win one on one.

Actually, the Empire developed a hyperdrive that could travel four million light years in a few weeks, and used it on the Galaxy Gun missiles.

Wasn't that only 100 million C? Besides, more to the point, something that can be used on a missile is not equivalent to something that can be used on something that can carry men.

four million light years. to a moderately close galaxy (in this group anyway) at 100 million C takes far less than a year. People in real history have made longer voyages. Hell, Kirk's ship was on a 'five year mission' which would put the maximum range of such an expediton up into the 250 million light years range (assuming that they could put that much fuel on a ship, which seems unlikely.) Even assuming that a human couldn't survive going through that kind of hyperdrive, which seems somewhat unlikely to me, if they can match the falcon's speed of one tenth that, they can manage a moderately near galaxy in under six months.

You remember their 5 fleet doctrine? That's 2500 ships. Even in SbS (that's wartime), they IIRC had maybe 10000 ships to defend Coruscant (supposedly half the Space Navy). Yes, help me.

Like I say, the NR is even worse than the Empire in terms of overall ineptitude. Thank christ someone has bothered to explain away the EU comments about 25,000 ships.

That's precisely what I mean when I said I was doing my best to avoid extrapolation. The more you change the current dynamics of the Federation (upteching them, making them into a galaxy), the more extrapolations you have to make, and you simply have no data to make them.

I agree. I never said this scenario wasn't riddled with suppositions, educated guesses and just plain plaster-to-fill the holes.

But you have no concrete numbers.

Give me a concrete number for Imperial Army numbers then. These things tend not to exist. It's one of the perils of this particular hobby.

Say you are Palpy. These stupid, annoying Rebs have been evading you for years. Honestly, if by trading off 20-30 SDs (of at least 25000), you are virtually guaranteed to eradicate them (you might note that not only the Fleet, but a good deal of the Rebel top leadership including Mon Mothma is onboard) for good, one feels very inclined to say yes.

True enough, but why use your best fleet, and presumably famous flagship?

One might note that because the Rebels believe in the Force so devoutly*, Luke Skywalker is a huge morale symbol for them. If he manages to turn him, think about the morale effect on any surviving Rebels. The man not only gets a powerful Force user for his own ends (a priceless asset in its own right), but he also deals a heavy psychological blow on his enemies, at what he assesses as minimal risk.

True enough, though I question the necessity of doing it while there's a battle on. And of being on the Death Star. And of not simply having some large bars put in that shaft the rebels flew down. Again, overconfidence is the typical Imperial Weakness.

*They believe in it so devoutly, that they dared write it in as a reason for their victory over the Death Star (see DSTC, where one of the least professional AARs ever written were put in as an Appendix). If you replace "the Force" with "God", one sees the true nature of that awful document.

Ouch. I'd rather not.

That depends on what kind of ships they are. Ship battles are as close to firepower based as battles ever get. On land, you can resist a three to one just by digging in. At sea, things aren't that easy, much less in space.

True enough. But given how quickly it thought, what stops it, for example, looking up, of all things, the prefix numbers seen in ST-2 (Now there's a glaring weakness) and firing weapons at the shields so they impact in the brief seconds before the slow, fleshy meatbags manage to press the override. There are many ways, exploiting weaknesses and not, that a computer can beat a human crewed ship. Not least, its ability to score more accurate fire-to-hit ratios, and evade enemy fire with far greater effectiveness.

How is that different from what I said? So when the Empire ignores a threat because it rated too low, and it proves to be a threat, it is an inexcusable mistake. When the Federation does the same, you agree with its assessment?

The Gorn were a myth. A space legend. People rarely prepare against space legends. More to the point, the outpost in question had phaser batteries which the Gorn destroyed, and an arsenal on the ground. They weren't exactly undefended.

Ackbar mentioned it (DFR).

I see.

Oh, so it is not Tactics, but Values? Assuming this is valid stuff, how is the difference going to save them when the Imperial Combined Arms Army comes down on their Light Infantry Army (if a bunch of redshirts can be considered a Army in the conventional sense at all).

Yes. Though starfleet has been aiming to keep these values away from it, it's evident that by TNG, they've failed.

Actually, they seemed to be mostly fighting themselves, and withdrawing of their accord.

The infighting didn't help matters at all, but really, loosing Coruscant to the rebellion, or the New Republic. Quite, quite pathetic, no?

[NecronLord]

Though I must admit, some of the arguments presented here have restored my faith in the Imperial Leadership.

[NecronLord]

Thinking this through (read checking up on some of the more embarrassing bits of TOS) I've actually got to say, they're much of a muchness in competance. Which means, yes, Imperial Doctrinal Superiority will win in any direct conflict.

[consequences]

Thinking this through (read checking up on some of the more embarrassing bits of TOS) I've actually got to say, they're much of a muchness in competance. Which means, yes, Imperial Doctrinal Superiority will win in any direct conflict.

Its even closer than you think in the competence department. The Imps have had an entire fleet seized by primitives, only to win it back through their captors' carelessness. Shades of Space Seed anyone?

[lPeregrine]

Quote:
True enough, though I question the necessity of doing it while there's a battle on. And of being on the Death Star. And of not simply having some large bars put in that shaft the rebels flew down. Again, overconfidence is the typical Imperial Weakness.

If I remember right, the shaft was not part of the final design, and eventually would have been sealed at the surface. This was part of the reason the attack at Endor was their only chance, the Death Star had to be destroyed before its armor shell could be completed. Putting large bars inside it may have interfered too much with construction and/or function.

[Darth Lucifer]

Quote:
True enough, though I question the necessity of doing it while there's a battle on. And of being on the Death Star. And of not simply having some large bars put in that shaft the rebels flew down. Again, overconfidence is the typical Imperial Weakness.

If I remember right, the shaft was not part of the final design, and eventually would have been sealed at the surface. This was part of the reason the attack at Endor was their only chance, the Death Star had to be destroyed before its armor shell could be completed. Putting large bars inside it may have interfered too much with construction and/or function.

All this raises a couple questions for me...was the exhaust port opening perpendicular or parallel to the bottom of the trench..or even at an angle? From the scematic during the briefing in ANH, the little ship in the primitive looking diagram looks like it's dropping a bomb downward. Even in the movie, it looks like the proton torpedoes do a bend to drop in the hole after Luke fires them off.

If the hole was facing outward toward open space, why fly down the trench at all? Why not dive straight down?

[NecronLord]

Its even closer than you think in the competence department. The Imps have had an entire fleet seized by primitives, only to win it back through their captors' carelessness. Shades of Space Seed anyone?

Except the Yvetha were basically a bunch of "Evil Japs" cliches strung together. At least Khan actually was intellectually superior.

[Darth Wong]

If the hole was facing outward toward open space, why fly down the trench at all? Why not dive straight down?

There are heavy defenses around that area, and you would be blown away trying to approach it at any appreciable distance from the surface. Best to stay below the surface, hence the trench run. Note that I'm basing this on the novel.

[NecronLord]

All this raises a couple questions for me...was the exhaust port opening perpendicular or parallel to the bottom of the trench..or even at an angle? From the scematic during the briefing in ANH, the little ship in the primitive looking diagram looks like it's dropping a bomb downward. Even in the movie, it looks like the proton torpedoes do a bend to drop in the hole after Luke fires them off.

If the hole was facing outward toward open space, why fly down the trench at all? Why not dive straight down?

I figure that, like modern chimneys, the Imperials had a particle shield just above it or some such, and it could only be destroyed from such a low angle.

Of course, the real reason is to recreate the drama of the attack in 633 Squadron.

[NecronLord]

There are heavy defenses around that area, and you would be blown away trying to approach it at any appreciable distance from the surface. Best to stay below the surface, hence the trench run. Note that I'm basing this on the novel.

Which kind of begs the question... Why weren't they blown away flying up out of the trench?

[Darth Lucifer]

Doi... It's late and I'm tired...I forget about things like Anti-aircraft...or the equivalent of it anyway. I've been in the PST forum for too long.

[Deathstalker]

Which kind of begs the question... Why weren't they blown away flying up out of the trench?

The Imp gunners had stopped firing when their own fighters entered the battle.

[NecronLord]

The Imp gunners had stopped firing when their own fighters entered the battle.

Their own fighters were kind of dead. What, did the Imp Gunners go off on a coffee break before the Falcon showed up?

[Deathstalker]

There were still other fighters around, hunting down the other fighters. The Falcon's attack was so sudden, the gunners didn't get the word to recommence fire after Vader's group had been destroyed.