Of Hogs, Acorns, and Spin Doctors

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-19 02:21am

Yes, its the new Dark Side Article!

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/acorn.html

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-02-19 03:47am

Very nice piece of work, Poe.

For some reason, this was my favorite line...

"Perhaps he lives in a terrifying, paranoid post-modernist world, where every explanation is merely a "point of view" and every discussion is really a power-grab?"

Elegant yet brutal, I guess.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-19 04:25am

Petrosjko wrote:Very nice piece of work, Poe.

For some reason, this was my favorite line...

"Perhaps he lives in a terrifying, paranoid post-modernist world, where every explanation is merely a "point of view" and every discussion is really a power-grab?"

Elegant yet brutal, I guess.

I liked it too, but I can't take credit for it. That came from one of my contributors.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-02-19 04:44am

Excellent and informative. Well done, Mr Poe! Your articles make me hunger for more.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-02-19 05:24am

I fully agree with the above posters, a most informative and interesting article which also induced some brief spells of anger. I've totally missed that discussion over at the GS (and he is a moderator there?), but in any case I now know for certain that I'll never listen to ChronoRadio. You wrote in the thread over at the GS that you would notify him about this article, have you done so?
Thanks, Lord Poe! I'm looking forward to your forthcoming articles!

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-02-19 06:07am

Niiiice. You're not shy of making enemies are you Wayne?

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-02-19 06:43am

Good work.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-02-19 06:44am

I particularly enjoy the opening...the whole "wannabe gangsta"

The rest is as usual, excellent material and concise destruction of the other person's idiotic position.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-02-19 06:46am

What irritates me most is that he purports to run a show "for the 'thinking' listener." Who knows how many fans listen to this and parrot it? Actually, that's a good question. This ranting about his opinion on the matter, interrupted but not affected by what a few others have to say, is a very popular format of radio show (used by most, and most famously by Rush Limbaugh), and as a rule it never really resolves anything or has anything original to say. The message board posts were just despicable. Again, I'm not sure how popular he is with fans, but I'm sure he has enough loyal listeners to make his dishonesty at least slightly damaging to the community at large.

I keep thinking one of his points might be an understandible misunderstanding by someone who either didn't take more than a minute to think about the matter, or who lacks the technical understanding to understand something stated with insufficeint explanation on the page, but I just don't see it. I mean, what was he proposing with that children's book, that the ecological disaster happened on Mon Calamari instead?

The only thing I'll grant him is that his original intent with this piece might have been, as he said, to make fun of fans who don't know the difference between fan works and official works. If that was the case, then from that concept for a show he made every mistake I can think of in trying to come up with the actual content.

Damn, the more I think about this the more rediculous it gets. Anyhow, Lord Poe, do you have the text of your commentary lying around somewhere?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-02-19 07:33am

Alan Bolte wrote:Damn, the more I think about this the more rediculous it gets. Anyhow, Lord Poe, do you have the text of your commentary lying around somewhere?

Listen to it if you can. It's worth it just to hear Wayne's voice.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2005-02-19 08:03am

Chrono Radio came about when Nathan Butler, the creator of the Star Wars Timeline... http://www.starwarz.com/timeline/

In the case of the Star Wars saga, I'd like to think that the historian in question, or one of the historians in question, is me. My name is Nathan P. Butler, and I . . . am an obsessive Star Wars fan.

LOL, how much you want to bet SWTC contradicts his timeline heh.

EDIT. Just finished listening to the radioshow, holy crap the guy is just one big commercial for his Timeline, just shutup. Can have a drinking game with the ammount of times he mentions it.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-02-19 09:29am

I sent the guy an email pointing out the differences between SW fansites posting fanfiction and Saxton´s fansite posting articles with simply canonical information. Hopefully he will answer in an entertaining manner, completely with Wall of Ignorance(TM).

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-02-20 02:16am

A bit off topic, but I just can't help feeling amused at the avatars and pictures in that article..........

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 01:45pm

Mange the Swede wrote:You wrote in the thread over at the GS that you would notify him about this article, have you done so?

Nope. T-bone pretty much quelled the heat that was brewing over the topic. Let one of them bring it up first. I told them where to find it!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 01:48pm

Crown wrote:Niiiice. You're not shy of making enemies are you Wayne?

It's a Yin and Yang thing. People don't seem to care about making an enemy of me!

Honestly, how can a bunch of goddamed Star Wars geeks think they can be snobbish about how some SW fans enjoy SW? Isn't that hilarious??

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 02:00pm

Alan Bolte wrote:Again, I'm not sure how popular he is with fans, but I'm sure he has enough loyal listeners to make his dishonesty at least slightly damaging to the community at large.

You'll find that many of the big SW fan sites are very cliquish, and have the same little political group that sticks together to further an agenda. Now they're not alone.

I mean, what was he proposing with that children's book, that the ecological disaster happened on Mon Calamari instead?

You'd think so, right? Talk about Tsunami! But her's just parroting the party line his boy Pablo Hidalgo put forth in Star Wars Insider.

Damn, the more I think about this the more rediculous it gets. Anyhow, Lord Poe, do you have the text of your commentary lying around somewhere?

Sure:

I am representing what is called the "pro-Saxton" side of the argument. The opposing "anti-Saxton" faction of fans object to
information presented in Dr. Saxton's published works and website, relating mainly to statistical information about sizes of
warships, scope and scale of the galactic civilization, and so on.

If we are talking about the correct lengths of the Executor, or the correct sizes of the Death Stars, contrary to some fans' erroneous beliefs, these aren't the creations of Dr. Saxton. Dr. Saxton's figures come from observations taken from the movies, and are therefore consistent with what is seen in the movies. Where Dr. Saxton's conclusions differ from the official published statistics of these ships and battle stations is that his numbers reflect correctly what is presented onscreen, while the Expanded Universe numbers are simply, incorrect.

The main motivation of the opposing faction seems to be a puzzling infatuation with statistics derived from the Expanded Universe material - books, games and comics - many of which evolved from a poorly-researched 1980s role playing game, and which are often in conflict with the easily observable facts of the movies. It is perhaps still more likely that these fans feel a greater attachment or affection for these materials themselves, rather than the movies, and are anxious to preserve what they mistakenly believe to be a consistent continuity. However, as should be obvious, the RPG sourcebooks were supposed to compliment the films, not the other way around. When they conflict with what is seen onscreen, then that infornation should of course be discarded.

Dr. Saxton has proved conclusively, for example, that the 8km or even the 12km length number for the Executor is incorrect, as he has done with the incorrect sizes given to the Death Stars. What many of the anti-Saxton crowd refuses to do is acknowledge is the fact that Dr, Saxton actually "shows his work", the most important of which are statements from the very same ILM technicians who were responsible for the special effects in the movies themselves that agree with his findings.

In the last few years, LF has taken a more serious interest in making sure the films are correctly represented. Dr. David West Reynolds was hired to author the first of the "Incredible Cross Sections" books, and had extensive access to the Lucasfilm archives and materials not available to the general public. Not surprisingly, Dr. Reynolds' findings agreed with Dr. Saxton's numbers in regards to the correct size of the first Death Star. Continuing this trend of representing the films properly, Dr. Saxton himself has now been hired to author and consult on several of the newer books that have come out which properly reflect the Star Wars universe.

Many who go for the easy dismissal of such things simply say that Star Wars is fiction. They say it doesn't matter how big plastic models are supposed to be. They think the Star Wars universe needn't be scientifically accurate at all!
Many of these people simply don't understand that even fiction must be consistent with itself. The Star Wars films aren't Looney Tunes cartoons. Ewoks can't hold an umbrella over their head and expect to ward off falling debris from a Death Star. A stormtrooper isn't going to hold a thermal detonator at arm's length and when it explodes, simply suffer the blackening of his armor and stars floating around his head. The physical reality, surrounding even fictional characters, must be consistent with itself. Otherwise, it becomes a parody of itself.

George Lucas himself has said that Star Wars is a fiction film, but its key is taking hold of what's most realistic and possible inside the terms set by the fiction. Or more clearly, it must be as credible as possible. The success of the imaginary is to make something totally fabricated seem real. Which is the essencce of "suspension of disbelief".

The success of the imaginary requires everything stays inside the boundaries Lucas has created. The saga best draws us in when everything is credible yet, of course, still fantastic at the same time. The characters have to be able to breathe the air on the planets; they are bound by gravity of those planets as humans are here. And they even call themselves human! Luke suffers from exposure to the elements on the frozen wastelands of Hoth, just like a human from Earth would.

It all has to be logical and realistic. That does not change simply because the characters live in a different galaxy. You don't get a "the wizard did it" card to dismiss bad research on the part of the expanded universe materials.

For those that say "size shouldn't matter", then why would they even care if these EU numbers were being corrected?
If it means absolutely nothing, then why the vehemence against these corrections? This certainly seems that people really do care, and have some vested interest in keeping stats from sourcebooks as incorrect as they are, rather that the correct numbers reflecting what we see in the films. Some charge that Dr. Saxton is not following continuity. However, he's actually the one that is preserving the continuity, the one that matters most of all: the films!

It seems even a few VIPs that may or may not have a history with the incorrect info found in the sourcebooks are against these corrections. One can see many editorials and posts dismissing the DK books or rationalist fans & authors with the surliest of attitudes. They seem to use their web presence to push a particular agenda and philosophy both within LF and within fandom, such as the peanut gallery on the message bords found on the Official Star Wars website.

In closing, it must be remembered that no one author or publisher will ever have a mandate to publish licensed Star Wars
material that contains information not explicitly approved by Lucasfilm. The astonishing quality of Dorling Kindersley's Star Wars books have immediately set a new standard in Star Wars publishing, and the books have become an instant reference source, even for the prequel production teams. Through the high standard of his work, Dr. Saxton has continued and even expanded that legacy, with the full knowledge, approval and consent of Lucasfilm. Every word he has written has been scrutinized and approved by LF editors. And in the end, fans who appreciate the proper depiction of their favorite movie saga win out, thanks to the efforts of Dr. Saxton.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 02:02pm

Meest wrote:EDIT. Just finished listening to the radioshow, holy crap the guy is just one big commercial for his Timeline, just shutup. Can have a drinking game with the ammount of times he mentions it.

Glad you caught that! I actually scaled that criticism back a bit in one of my earlier drafts! Jesus fuck.. 35 minutes to get to the damned main topic of the show!!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 02:03pm

VT-16 wrote:I sent the guy an email pointing out the differences between SW fansites posting fanfiction and Saxton´s fansite posting articles with simply canonical information. Hopefully he will answer in an entertaining manner, completely with Wall of Ignorance(TM).

Keep that email. I'd like to see if he treats you in a similar manner he treated Brian Young.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 02:04pm

PainRack wrote:A bit off topic, but I just can't help feeling amused at the avatars and pictures in that article..........

Hey, its the Special Multimedia Edition!

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-02-20 02:33pm

Excellent article, as always. I think he actually doesn't get what's wrong with his position. I recall now that I tried ChronoRadio once before, long time ago.. and quit immediately. I mean, it sounds like an endless commercial and there's not even music in between.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-02-22 12:49pm

Just wanted to say, Wayne, that I think it's fucking hilarious watching you be all nice and cordeal on the sw.c boards, knowing what animosity you feel towards certain parties there. . .

You even insert the little "

" every once and a while

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-02-22 01:35pm

Butler seems to oddly fixate on how long things actually take to do.

Great article by the way, Wayne.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-02-22 01:36pm

You know, Lord Poe, they're currently backstabbing you over at the GS, calling you dishonest and a coward.
Hmm, I wonder if that RSA he refers to is someone we know...

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-22 02:56pm

The Original Nex wrote:Just wanted to say, Wayne, that I think it's fucking hilarious watching you be all nice and cordeal on the sw.c boards, knowing what animosity you feel towards certain parties there. . .

You even insert the little " " every once and a while

I didn't earn the title "demigod of disguise" for nothing!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-22 02:58pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Butler seems to oddly fixate on how long things actually take to do.

Great article by the way, Wayne.

Thanks. Isn't it strange that he burdens more than half his SHOW with that crap? Its like having a "behind the scenes" featurette play in the middle of a movie!